BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour

Subject: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 06:09 AM

I like some of the music but, as I just tweeted, "Re #TroopingTheColour on the #BBC, the horses ARE suffering - look at thier mouths or imagine being directed around by tugging on your gums!" Or a similar stance in verse - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#146

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 07:30 AM

Are they really - have you ever seen polo ponies who can't wait to get onto the field with their mates to play??

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 10:00 AM

..."chafing at the bit" - TRYING TO GET THE DAMN THING OUT OF THIER MOUTH.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 11:05 AM

sheesh

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Max Johnson
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 11:47 AM

Might I suggest that you take an introductory riding lesson? It's not that expensive, and for most people it's a transforming experience. Some people find that they're intimidated by horses, but that's unusual and if you're not I assure you that you'll have a wonderful time, and the horse will probably enjoy it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 12:21 PM

So, ride using a hackamore.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 12:24 PM

Going to Beaufort Polo next week.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 12:41 PM

Dear Max, walking about:

"...sometimes, a horse will urge me make handy a grassy cup,
Or nudge for a scratch down its back and thigh;" (here)...

And, if offered a ride by its owner, it would not be "intimidation" but exactly that said in the opening-post stopping me; I like horses and, thus, would never ride one.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 12:46 PM

Thanks, Rapparee - these seem much less cruel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_hackamore

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Brian May
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 03:09 PM

Good heavens, for a moment I thought you meant the troopers who go through hell for this parade.

These horses are some of the best cared-for animals in the country, or even the world.

Pardon me if I don't agree that it's cruel. There is far worse all over the world than what happens to these mounts.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 03:36 PM

WAV does have a tradition of ranting on about things he knows eff all about. I think that all we have here, is the confirmation of the status quo. Once a div, always a div.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 03:53 PM

Dear John: check the BBC highlights, then, and get it straight from the discomforted horses mouth!

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 04:27 PM

Don't you mean, Francis the talking mule?

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Jun 11 - 04:27 PM

have you ever seen polo ponies who can't wait to get onto the field with their mates to play??

No.

That said, a friend of mine did introduce me to her horse and I was quite surprised by the creature. It most certainly seemed to enjoy being ridden by her and also seemed quite capable of detecting that I hadn't a clue about horse riding. The feeling I had was that she was gently taking the piss when I had a ride.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 01:12 AM

Guest Jon ~~ A little confusion in your pronouns: but I take it that it was the horse [mare] (previouly 'it') that you thought was 'quietly taking the piss', not your friend!

Of course she enjoyed being ridden. Horses are bred as working animals, and are unhappy without some job to do. The same is true of dogs ~ dogs who are merely pets are not as content as ones given something to do ~~ racing, sled-pulling: even fetching the newspaper or the slippers. Men & women are the same ~~ the unemployed never look happy, and it isn't just the money. The horses showing their teeth and shaking their heads while being ridden on the parade were not expressing any sort of pain or discontent; just the equivalent of a tennis player catching his breath after a long rally or a man stopping for a yawn between two phases of a job.

Anyone who can't recognise this had just better be quiet on the topic.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 01:21 AM

I am reminded that a friend who had been a senior NCO in a cavalry regiment once told me that, at the end of a drill or a parade, after the order to dismount and before the horses were stabled, the order would be given, "Make much of your horses", and each man would pat his horse and address it affectionately.

Every rider and horse on that parade had a mutual relationship of trust and affection!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 01:40 AM

I have always thought that it is pretty unkind to turn a steer into a hamburger. Doesn't stop most people eating them.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 05:26 AM

Michael: I've seen horses at ease after a FREE run in the field, and their mouths were NOT moving in the discomforted manner of those on Horse Guards Parade yesterday, e.g. - the latter WERE trying to get the damn bit out of their mouth. If your gums are not that different from a horses, try tugging on them with something like a bit for a few minutes.

Also, bulls have been bread so large the last few decades that nose rings are needed to direct them about - again via pain/discomfort, or the desire to relieve it by turning this way or that.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 05:27 AM

Bred, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Will Fly
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 06:20 AM

bulls have been bread

Only as burgers.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Silas
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 06:22 AM

I thought that noserings were to stop animals grazing the grass too short.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 06:29 AM

A horse's gums soon become accustomed to the bit as a guitarist's fingertips get hardened to the strings. Do you really imagine that the cavalry use newly reared foals for their parades? They would as soon try to get the bits out of their mouths as to lean forward as she rides through their ranks and bite the Queen.

The band drum-horses plod happily on with a pair of kettle-drums being bashed behind their ears. Do you imagine they are so nesh & soft as to be bothered by a bit they wear for several house every day of their lives?

Don't be so silly!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 06:33 AM

Yes it was the horse (her name was Katie btw) who I felt was making fun of me.

---

Thinking of horses and working, I think the "wanting something to do" was even more apparent when I watched the horses at the local shire horse place.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 09:18 AM

That reminds me, Jon: cattle seem almost ecstatic when released to a field, after being in a barn all winter; but nowadays many never see the light of day, and are milked 3 times everyday.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: s&r
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 10:37 AM

Oh dear WAV here we go again on some sort of witch hunt driven by ignorance.

Anthropomorphism should be avoided in meaningful debate... Discuss.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 12:20 PM

"...bulls have been bread so large the last few decades that nose rings are needed to direct them about - again via pain/discomfort, or the desire to relieve it by turning this way or that."

A little knowledge tends to come across as silly. WV, nose rings on a bull are nothing new, in any sense. They have little or nothing to do with size. And yes, they are meant to control them through pain or discomfort. A bull is an extremely strong animal and given their proclivities they can be very unpredictable. With a nose ring, a young bull learns very quickly how to avoid the discomfort and after that it is an implied threat.

Incidentally you may or may not have noticed that a nose ring is used in conjunction with a pole that clips onto the ring. Without the pole a bull can still attack; the pole keeps the bull at a reasonable distance.

A friend of mine was cornered in a board paddock by a Jersey bull and literally almost killed (he was in the hospital for weeks and in therapy for months).

A Jersey normally has no horns- think of the damage the bull would have done with them instead of the bludgeoning my friend got.

And before you respond by a rhetorical "Then why didn't he leave him alone?", I would point out that on occasion all cattle have to be handled.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM

I agree, Ebbie - except, logically, the larger the bull the more likely a nose ring (rather than just some kind of strap) would be required to control it, yes? And bulls have been bred much larger the last few decades, yes? I'm quite sure I heard the latter on CountryFile (BBC).

As for "ignorance" (Stu), I concede the only thing I've done on a farm is pick onions (here), but given that we humans also have them, it's not hard to imagine the discomfort of a horse with a tugged bit in its mouth or a bull with a pulled ring through its nose.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 03:43 PM

If you're getting your knowledge animals and animal care from the media please take a job on a working farm or ranch for a year. I happen to know that Ebbie knows from experience whereof she speaks -- years of it.

Welsh Black cattle can weigh nearly a ton (2,000 lbs.) for both male and female. Santa Gertrudis, bred over a century ago, can weigh even more. Even a common Jersey or Guernsey milk cow outweighs a human by a few hundred pounds (well, most humans). And if you've ever been caught between a stall wall and an ordinary "gentle" milch cow (as I have) you'd know how strong they are.

The last "real" horse encounter I had was outside Freepot, Maine, with an animal that had moved there from Montana. I was stroking its nose, talking nicely to it, when it clamped its teeth on my right arm just below the elbow. The pain was pretty great, but I handled it as a True Horse Whisperer would. My left hand took hold of the horse's ear and I whispered the magic phrase known to all cowboys, "Let go, you goddamn sonuvabitch or I'll twist your f*****g ear off!" And he let go. Of course, I had bite bruises for weeks....

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 03:43 PM

Horses have been ridden and harnessed for draft literally since the beginning of civilisation. This has always involved some sort of bit in the mouth.

The nose-ringing of bulls is likewise of immeasurable antiquity.

Have you only just heard about it?

Honest now, WAV, what are you on about?

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: s&r
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 04:23 PM

Could you not imagine the pain felt by the onion as it is cruelly wrenched out of its home; is it not significant that the onion causes weeping in its torturers?

Does the horse say 'nay' in a vain attempt to dissuade its torturers from their cruel acts?

On a farm animals earn their keep - those that don't aren't kept out of a maudlin sentiment.

As Rapparee suggests, take a job on a farm or in a stable, and learn about animals before you pontificate.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 04:36 PM

Thanks, Rapparee - these seem much less cruel:

The mechanical hackamore may seem less cruel but in fact is often constructed in a way that makes it more painful for the horse. I've seen it used on "intractable" horses where it caused more pain without permanent injury than any "cruel bit" that could be used without permanent harm. The "cruel" versions of this device are prohibited in some places and kinds of events simply because they can be abusive.

Bits also come in quite a variety, some of which can cause severe pain, and others that are, in ordinary use, relatively innocuous so far as the horse is concerned.

A competent rider should never need to "pull on the reins" to guide a properly trained horse. Merely moving the reins to one side or the other will direct the horse to go in the direction the rider selects.

If it's offensive to you that the horse has something in its mouth, I'd suggest a walk through any business office an looking at the number of thoroughly chewed pensils in the cups/trays on the desks. Not everyone who has something in the mouth (or who slobbers and drools) is in pain.

The horse is (usually) bigger than the rider, but the rider is presumed (not always justifiably) to be more intelligent. Under most circumstances it's not necessary to use "pain" for the rider to tell the horse what should be done. It is always a possibility, however, that the horse may be distracted, frightened, or otherwise rendered inattentive to the wishes of the rider, and ther rider then is responsible for getting the horse's attention and maintaining proper control. The equipment used must be capable of providing communication with the horse, and of "getting its attention" in the event of any inappropriate behavior. It need not be painful, or even uncomfortable, to the horse in ordinary riding.

The rider is responsible for selecting the equipment that suits both normal and "emergeny" contingencies, with due respect to the horse; and is responsible for using the selected equipment appropriately.

Although, unlike pigs, horses do sweat some, slobbering and drooling is quite normal, both for purposes of cooling and as an indication of nervousness or excitement - which does not necessarily indicate pain or discomfort, or that the bit is irritating them.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 04:46 PM

MtheGM: what about Amerindians/Native Americans/First Nations?

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 05:21 PM

well i agree with WAV. Its not nice having bits of metal in your gob. On the other hand its better than being on the menu in a french restaurant.

i think everybody is uncomfortable in trooping the colour. The queen always looked uncomfortable on a horse, and holding a salute. the soldiers used to faint with great big fur hats on. as for the horses - they should have bit the biggest ugliest of the brutes with the most medals.   Anyway i never get up in time to see it on telly. I did try and attend once, but I couldn't get an invite. No doubt you have to shoot a peasant or something to qualify.

Ricky West used to ride Champion the Wonder Horse without a bit - which proves that its just slavish adherence to past tradition that keeps this outdated practice still current.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 05:28 PM

I can't imagine the pain of having your nose pierced with a ring, or an eartag poked through your ear, or having your cheek cut by a bit of metal or...wait, people do that to themselves all the time. Even penis and nipple rings.

Forget I said anything.

(I wasn't thinking of mechanical hackamores.)

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Noreen
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 05:31 PM

BBC highlights of Trooping the Colour

Lovely, well-cared-for horses on show there.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 07:02 PM

Plains Indians who rode and hunted from horseback used a rawhide thong around the lower jaw of the horse. That and leg pressure told the horse which direction to turn.

American Western (cowboy) horses are trained to neck rein -- the feel of the reins on their neck and pressure from the opposite leg of the rider indicates which direction the horse should turn, not pressure on the bit. While a cutting horse is working separating on steer from the herd (or similar work), the rider is mostly just along for the ride. The horse is trained so well, it doesn't need direction from the rider.

Only and inexperienced rider would jerk a horse's mouth around and most bits are there, ultimately for control, but usually due to training, not that much is needed.

A bit in itself is not cruel or even uncomfortable.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 08:10 PM

"Not Available in Your Area"- I don't get to see the trooping of the color(s).

Unlike the custom in "English" riding, we in western America, as Bat Goddess said, always implemented neck reining. My father was a horse trainer and when a horse came to us that had learned only 'straight' reining about the first thing he did was teach it to neck rein. It is an economical movement - using only body weight and one hand - and essential when driving cattle; the horse learns it easily.

It is really something to see a cutting horse in action. My nephew has a small place near Bend, Oregon, where he trains cutting horses. It is a beautiful thing to see, probably as close to dressage as one can get in western riding. At a certain stage he drops the reins to the horse's neck and his main role from then on is to stay in the saddle.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 10:15 PM

"Almost like dressage", Ebbie? As for controling horses -- look at the reins and hands of the riders riding cutting horses. Good rides rarely use the bit to control the horse -- knee pressure, neck reining, and, most importantly, a horse and rider who can work as one where each knows what the other does...and if you've ever seen the look a good horse gives a rider who's blown his or her part of job you'll know what I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 11:56 PM

My guess is that a couple of generations ago most western cowboys had never heard the word 'dressage'. :) But that's nice work. Beauty of a horse.

But it's the cutting horse that gets my blood racing. Thanks for that link, Rapparee.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Bert
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 01:22 AM

If they banned trooping the colour, the very next day all those horses would be on their way to the glue factory.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 02:12 AM

I doubt that very much, Bert. A healthy, in the prime of life and well-trained is not a likely candidate for years to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 02:46 AM

Next time i'm walking round B and Q and i pass the shelf full of loctite and Evo- Stik; I will get out my ukelele, sing a couple of choruses of 'A Four Legged Friend', perhaps 'Old faithful', and moist eyed, I will remember the days when those jars thought they had a tough gig - riding round with lumps of metal in their gobs and some idiot bashing a kettle drum behind each of their sensitive lugholes.

never mind Prit-Stick old feller! i will say - you had a true friend in WAV. there were some who scorned him, because he wrote avant gard poetry, didn't believe in chords, and had advanced opinions. But one day in some (in a land there is no Araldite) you and he will frolic together in a meadow - the sunshine on your flanks, and under the shade of a great horse chestnut - he will read you his poems, and you will go 'neigh! i didn't like that one much....'

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 02:50 AM

Ah well at least the working conditions of these horses have markedly improved over the course of time.

Being bothered by a bit or bridle was the last thing on their mind in times past:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scotland_Forever.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 03:03 AM

---MtheGM: what about Amerindians/Native Americans/First Nations? ---

====

Well, what about them, WAV? Unique, pretty well, in having used practically no harness of any kind to ride; but then horses were no traditionally ancient part of their culture, not having been indigenous to the American continent but imported by the Spanish. I can't see how one exception to an otherwise universal rule affects my point that harness has been used for riding the horse since time immemorial.

You have, however, raised an agreeable mental image of hordes of howling Apache or Sioux on bareback mounts whooping around Horse Guards Parade, moccasins polished to a dazzling shine, feathered headdresses damped and brushed to perfection, forming pairs, fours, ranks, advancing smartly in review order...

A spectacle fit for a Queen, to be sure!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 05:00 AM

Following well worth looking up & browsing through in re topic of this thread:~

NOLAN'S SYSTEM FOR TRAINING CAVALRY HORSES.by KENNER GARRARD, CAPTAIN FIFTH CAVALRY, U. S. A.

http://9thvirginia.com/nolansys.html

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 05:16 AM

"as close to dressage as one can get in western riding."

What's that sport that William Shatner indulges in?

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 06:55 AM

But, Linn, if you can't get the BBC link just above your post, please believe me that the discomforted mouth-movements I mentioned occured while the horses were STATIONARY on Horse Guards Parade.

And, on a lighter note, cheers Big Al! But, one correction, I've questioned "Chords in FOLK" - not in, e.g., choral evensongs, of which I've enjoyed many, on Radio 3 and in "stalls" of the other kind!

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 10:24 AM

Horses WERE indigenous to the Americas; however, they went extinct until the Spanish brought in some more.

Very few glues are made from animal parts today. Chemical parts, yeah. But trying to find a good hide glue, for instance, is quite difficult. Cyanoacrylates ("super glues") are rendered down from the stalls of the chemical supply room -- as are epoxies and almost all the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 10:48 AM

Perhaps so Rapparee ~~ but the point is that they had gone extinct some centuries and many human generations earlier, so that there had been no continuous tradition of horsemanship among the indigenous American population.

WAV ~ There were no "discomforted mouth movements"; horses champ on their bits because they are there, not because they are uncomfortable. Read the Cavalry training instructions I gave the link to above, 05.00 AM, and learn something about horses ~~ a topic on which I am no expert, but on which you are clearly entirely ignorant but full of self-righteous oh-diddums PC misapprehensions.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Cruelty in Trooping the Colour
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 11 - 04:04 PM

Yes, indeed they had. So had the ground sloths, saber tooth cats, camels, dire wolves and I don't know what all. Fortunately the Spanish didn't introduce any of these, and it took the US Army to re-introduce the camel.

There is some evidence (pretty good evidence, actually) that early people in the Americas hunted mastodon and/or mammoth.