Do purists really exist?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Dec 18 - 06:16 PM

...and they said the war would be over by xmas.....


I know, let's have a mudcat "I'm right, you're wrong" Advent calendar,
each day we can pop open a window to see who has won the prize of being right for that particular day...

[Disclaimer: contestants randomly chosen by AI, and not who is most in favour with mods - honest...]

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 03:59 AM

My apologies - once again I have helped to nause up an important thread by rising(sic) to one of Dick's diversions - finished, as far as I'm concerned

I think Vic's earlier suggestion was an excellent one - if we want to discus 'Purism' - the subject of this thread, we should first define what we, as individuals, mean by the term, which has now become one of the most common terms of abuse in what is left of the revival

The clubs I have been involved with have all presented newly-made songs created using traditional forms and have accepted the use of instruments for what are basically unaccompanied singing traditions - nothing particularly 'purist' about that (though I do recognise the right of some clubs to discourage instrumentation should they wish, without believing them to be 'purist' - down the years there have been various reasons to do so in certain circumstances

All the clubs I have ever been involved in have been rooted in traditional song and music - had they not been, I would not have been involved if they hadn't been
They have also established a standard of performance that you did not drop below before you sang before an audience - I believe that should always be a responsibility, particularly to a paying audience (I've never been part of a singaround club - I know that maintaining a standard is difficult there, but I do believe that, with careful MC-ing, a balance between good and not-so-good singing can be arrived at.

Most of the clubs I have had access to workshops where lesser experienced singers can obtain advice and practical assistance, should they wish it.
Sandra Kerr of the Singers Club?Critics Group established the 'London Singers Workshop, which ran for nearly twenty years, did some excellent work and established one of the largest private sound archives in Britain - still in existence and available for use.

What ran though all this work like a thread was a solid link to folk-song proper as documented, collected and researched - that was used as a foundation for anything I have ever been involved in
If that is 'purist' I put my hands put to being a purist      
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 11:04 AM

Never any shortage of advice in folk clubs Jim.

no apologies necessary from you. EVER! merry christmas!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 11:23 AM

I `ad that Sublime Ashtray in my cab the other day. `e was going through a long established thread on that Mudcat and it was all about Purists but what with the racket from the traffic and all I couldn`t `ear exactly what `e was on about.
I now gather `e said, "`ere Jim, you and your band `ave been on the folk music since Adam was a boy, do you believe Purists exist?"
I said, `cause they do. I`m driving `em around London every day of the week".
`e said, "I said Purists, not TOURISTS, you wally!!"


Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 12:39 PM

Firstly i have not boasted about anything , i was asked by kenny how many times i had visited folk clubs in 2018 ,i gave him an answer.
Jim gives an opinion about uk folk clubs but refuses to answer as to the amount of times he has visited uk folk clubs in 2018.
the question is important , because if anyone has not visited a folk club , they cannot give an up todate opinion that can be taken seriously.
Al Whittle, I suggest to you that people who have not visied a uk folk club for two years cannot give a serious opinion on the matter , what has christmas got to do with any of this?, I have witnessed Jim running down folk clubs on this forum for years, he has finally been exposed for what he is.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 01:09 PM

"merry christmas!"
And you Al - ster cleat of the mistletoe - it tastes like ****
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 03:02 PM

'Purists' is an anagram of 'stirs up'.

Some profound meaning there, surely? ;-)

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 05:11 PM

This thread has turned into a piss rut.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 06:02 PM

Strip us!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 06:03 PM

Tup, sirs?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 06:08 PM

Well it's good for cleaning paint brushes!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 07:16 PM

Dick....it doesn't matter! the world will revolve, tories will be bastards, the sun will rise, the gigs will come in, we will do them,   some people will say - John Denver ! I love folk music!, some people will say Ewan always put the other finger in his ear at that point, the grass will grow, the birds will sing....probably.

Merry Christmas!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:45 AM

"but refuses to answer as to the amount of times he has visited uk folk clubs in 2018."
14 Dec 18 - 02:18 PM
Not that it matters
Why not make a New Years Resolution to read what peopple write

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 04:32 AM

Drily, sir expostulates!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 05:20 AM

i do not believe that post of yours, jim.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 05:52 AM

Its there in black and white, Dick.

We are what we are.

It is Christmas . Merriness!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 05:53 AM

Ho1 ho! ho!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 08:18 AM

"i do not believe that post of yours, jim."
Don't give two ***** Dick
I don't believe you didn't see it first time round =- how 'bout that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 08:18 AM

"i do not believe that post of yours, jim."
Don't give two ***** Dick
I don't believe you didn't see it first time round =- how 'bout that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 09:26 AM

Jim , if you think you can be taken seriously, after as you claim, only a few visits to folk clubs, yet you contune to denigrate folk clubs bade on only a few visiuts give it a break.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 10:02 AM

... and... The war drags on - Donovan

It won't be over by xmas.. will it...???

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 10:43 AM

I fully intend to continue a discussion - without Dick
It woud be good if, instead of throwing in snidre comments, other people corrected me if they think I am wrog in my assessment - c'mon, it's Christmas
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:20 AM

Remember when mudcat allowed use of emoticons...

My favourite, almost signature icon, was the cheeky winky eyed sticky out tongue emoticon.

Back then, over sensitive folks could not so easily mistake good natured tongue in cheek mickey taking as "snide"...

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 12:09 PM

Sorry if I mistook your meaning PFR - bit difficult distinguishing the Wood from the trees after an encounter with Dick
Blame it on the shell-shock
But Donovan !!!!!!!
Jim

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 12:37 PM

yes Donovan.. serves you right...

.. I could resort to even worse punishments...

You do know I used to have an encyclopaedic knowledge of shite pop folk...

Luckily for all mudcatters, age is impairing my memory...

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 12:52 PM

So you keep telling us ...    :-)

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:06 PM

Andy - getting old is a big novelty for me - it's all new...

Respects to the mudcat elders who've already been there and dunnit a long time ago...

Did I say my memory is going...???

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:19 PM

Jim like trump you seem t5o believe in post truth

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 06:46 PM

Yes I agree, getting older is a strange experience.

One of its effects, for me, is that I'm much less of a 'purist' than I once was.

I used to seek out, and learn, old traditional songs to sing at folk clubs (as well as a couple of songs from a few 'accepted' folk artists, like Dylan, or S&G).

Now, I sing a much wider variety of songs; and, more importantly, I'm happy to accept, and enjoy, a much wider variety of songs from others.

Yes, I do still really enjoy hearing those old, unaccompanied, traditional songs. But I also like to hear other stuff; I love the variety I hear in my local clubs. Songs I may never have heard, if I'd just stayed at home and watched YouTube.

I have my likes and dislikes, of course, as does everyone. But to be honest, I'd probably have stopped going to local clubs long ago, had every song performed there been a long, unaccompanied, traditional ballad.

So ... to keep me as a very supportive member - who helps put out and pack away tables and chairs, and who runs the bar occasionally, when the organisers can't make it - you need to give me some variety! And I'm sure I'm not alone in that opinion!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 03:50 AM

Can't disagree with any of that Andy, except it doesn't apply to just now - I have always enjoyed other types of music, jazz, swing, opera, classical....
It's not a matter of what yoy 'enjoy' - it's what you pass off as 'folk' at 'folk' clubs
My interest in folk music in folk music has always been as a singer, a listener and a researcher, documenter and passer-on of folk songs and other folk arts
At one time, they all coincided - I could write about and lecture on what I sang and what I listened to - that no longer applies in Britain
I believe we have lost our 'folk' identity
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 04:13 AM

Ihere is plenty of variety amongst traditional songs,if people want to sing Xliff Richard songs ,why do they not form a pop acoustic club.
I would not turn up at a jazz club and expect to hear an unaccompanied tradtional song such as long lankin,unless it was played as a tune and improvised upon/

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 04:18 AM

I believe we have lost our 'folk' identity"At one time, they all coincided - I could write about and lecture on what I sang and what I listened to - that no longer applies in Britain
I believe we have lost our 'folk' identity
Jim Carroll
what a sweeping generalisation, jim dismisses all the fiddle and accordion clubs in scotland,all the morris dancers all the folk customs suchas padstow etc

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 05:10 AM

It would be great if there were lots of 'purist' folk clubs for those that want them. But there are not, and nor are there likely to be.

Even the 'non-purist' folk clubs that we have now often struggle to keep going. But at least they do; and among their variety of music, they do preserve some of the 'purist' tradition in the offerings from some members (including from magpie singers like me, now and then).

So, rather than mourn the loss of what we once had, let's value, and enjoy, what we have now!

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 05:39 AM

"rather than mourn the loss of what we once had, let's value, and enjoy, what we have now!"

Pray tell, what is there to rejoice and enjoy about, when the weekly, fortnightly and monthly fare consists of extremely mediocre renditions of old pop songs mumbled by people who are not particularly good singers reading the words and having to interrupt their own accompaniment by pausing to scroll up on their "tablet" - they'd be better off in a Karaoke Bar.

The odd thing is that with this wealth of material available to them on these effin' tablets, they keep coming out with exactly the same shitty numbers week in week out without showing any sign of improvement.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 06:22 AM

"It would be great if there were lots of 'purist' folk clubs for those that want them"
"Purist Folk clubs" is like saying "purist greengrocers or "purist" stationers
Folk is what folk clubs are supposed to do - that's our product identity and it's what we contract to give to those seeking it
Folk Clubs are struggling to keep going because those interested in folk can no longer find what they're looking for and those seeking something else can find it far better done elsewhere

"extremely mediocre renditions of old pop songs mumbled by people who are not particularly good"
Wish I'd said that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 06:57 AM

Punkfolkrocker wrote:-
"Remember when mudcat allowed use of emoticons..."

How true! Sometimes I just do not know how to express myself without putting one of these evocative symbols to express how I am feeling. 

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 08:16 AM

Not sure what you're saying Vic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 08:20 AM

Vic - you can be as smug as you like...*
but when folks are quickly dashing off posts to a forum,
a well chosen emoticon is now an established form of communication
as part of busy modern life...
We can't all spend time drafting each post as though we are writing a great elequent novel...

[* you may or may not be intending to convey a smug sense of disdain and superiority...
It would be much easier to discern if you used a good expressive emoticon....

Unfortunately 'improvements' to mudcat coding no longer permit this useful facility...]

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 09:02 AM

It would be much easier to discern if you used a good expressive emoticon....
Waht do you mean like ☺?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 09:08 AM

??

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 09:13 AM

see.. the emoticon plugin in Chrome still don't work...

If you wanna do something useful with yer clever bugger coding skills,
how about giving me a copy and paste for FACE WITH STUCK OUT TONGUE AND WINKING EYE
that I can keep handy on notepad...

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 09:53 AM

As others know, when attempts are made to draw me into exchanges of insults, I will not participate and retreat from the field. Anyway, as part of my busy modern life, I have far too much to do; I need to complete the present chapter of my great elequent novel. (You will be pleased to hear that it is going well as the moment) Then it is my turn to cook before we have a 35 minute drive to a monthly club where we expect to partcipate in an evening devoted exclusively to traditional songs and tunes. Life is good!
Exeunt

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 10:45 AM

"when attempts are made to draw me into exchanges of insults"

Eh...????

have you forgot you are the one who dropped in playing clever buggers for no apparent reason..

"Vic Smith - Date: 17 Dec 18 - 06:57 AM"

Btw.. I was serious asking for advice on coding that emoticon...

but alas, that is the kind of misunderstanding emoticons can help prevent...???

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 10:58 AM

Pfr, if all else fails, you can always view the page source (on some browsers, right click on the page and select the option from the popup menu) and look for the post.

Simplifying Vic's post a little, I get:

<font face = wingdings size = "+36">&#9786;</font>

☺

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 02:09 PM

'Pray tell, what is there to rejoice and enjoy about, when the weekly, fortnightly and monthly fare consists of extremely mediocre renditions of old pop songs mumbled by people who are not particularly good singers reading the words and having to interrupt their own accompaniment by pausing to scroll up on their "tablet" - they'd be better off in a Karaoke Bar.

The odd thing is that with this wealth of material available to them on these effin' tablets, they keep coming out with exactly the same shitty numbers week in week out without showing any sign of improvement.

The Observers Book of Folk Music.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Andy7
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 06:03 PM

No folk club I've ever been to - and I've been to many, over the years - has ever consisted of an entire evening of extremely mediocre renditions of old pop songs mumbled by people who are not particularly good singers reading the words and having to interrupt their own accompaniment by pausing to scroll up on their tablet.

What I have experienced, is friendly and welcoming groups of people, who perform, and enjoy, a wide variety of music - from those 'old pop songs' to traditional unaccompanied songs, and very much else besides.

True, most performers are not experts at their craft, and many use words to sing from. Maybe they've only recently started out. Maybe their memory is not as good as it was. Maybe having the words there, just in case, gives them the confidence to perform. Does that mean those people shouldn't be allowed to sing?

If I want to listen to top performers, I'll pay to go to a concert, which I do from time to time. And if I want a relaxed evening of friendship, lighthearted banter and a wide variety of music, some of which is of a very high standard, I'll go to a folk club.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 06:57 PM

Is a purist someone who plays a pur?

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 01:44 AM

"True, most performers are not experts at their craft, and many use words to sing from. Maybe they've only recently started out. Maybe their memory is not as good as it was. Maybe having the words there, just in case, gives them the confidence to perform. Does that mean those people shouldn't be allowed to sing?"

1. You do not have to be an expert. But IF you are going to "perform", i.e. impose yourself on a group of innocent bystanders, in public you owe it to THEM and the venue to pass as being competent.

2. "Many use words to sing from" - Never used to be the case, that has crept in over the years, to now becoming accepted as being the norm. Again if you are going to sing in public have the decency to actually learn your material.

3. Only problem with the "Oh it helps my memory" angle, or as a confidence booster, is that it would appear that the more they use the words the more they appear to rely on the words, they never ever get any better - If you do not "know" a song after singing the damn thing twenty-odd times - give up you re never going to learn it.

4. As for the singing, the short, hard and cruel answer if you are interested in maintaining a standard is no they shouldn't "perform" until they know their material well enough to perform it. Their obvious need for these supports screams that they themselves are uncomfortable and unsure. As previously stated use of such props would be mitigated if over the course of time they actually showed some signs of improvement, but they don't.

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 02:03 AM

2. "Many use words to sing from" - Never used to be the case, that has crept in over the years, to now becoming accepted as being the norm. Again if you are going to sing in public have the decency to actually learn your material. or alternatively practise using wordsor printed material , so that like an actor you canm do a professional performance

Subject: RE: Do purists really exist?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 02:58 AM

I think Andy is either missing or avoiding the poit
I can get
"What I have experienced, is friendly and welcoming groups of people, who perform, and enjoy, a wide variety of music "
Where does "folk song" fit into this - if it doesn't, why call yourself a "folk Club"
I can get welcoming groups of people anywhere and a wide group of material in a karaoke session
It is possible to ge an occasional gem in a poor session, but unlss you establish a standard, the likelihood of doing so is reduced considerably
It is unfair to expect those who have taken the trouble to learn the words and tune after the atmosphere has been lowered by those who haven't
One dreadful singer can ruin an entire evening - sadly, that's what the audience will remember
I helped run singers workshops all the years I have been involved in folk song and have come to the conclusion that, with very few exceptions anybody can become a proficient singer and the harder they are prepared to work at it, the better they will become

Again, I find myself in total agreement with 'Observer'
Anybody who sings in front of an audience without putting in the work shows contempt for the audience and for the songs - you owe putting in an effort to both

MacColl said it all for me in a long interview we did over six months back in the 80s

"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that’s the argument that’s put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.   
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it.   Anybody who’s ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you’re not enjoying it when you’re making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it’s working, when all the things you want to happen are happening.    And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it’s hit or miss.   
If you’re training it can happen more, that’s the difference.   It can’t happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it’s something to fall back on, a technique, you know.   It’s something that will at least make sure that you’re not absolutely diabolical……………
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he’s no longer worried about technique, he’s done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."
Jim Carroll