BS: Striking teachers should lose pay

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 11:06 AM

At the weekend my eldest son, who's a police officer, was telling me in no uncertain terms just how fed up and disillusioned many police officers are with what's happening to them. When he joined, he was expecting to work for 30 years, pay an 11% pension contribution and then retire with a modest but realistic pension. This is based on the dangerous, stressful and physical nature of the job and the antisocial shift pattern throughout his working life. Also on the rather disturbing fact that, on average, the life expectancy of a police officer after retirement is just 5 years. OK, no bleeding hearts – he assessed the advantages and disadvantages, and the remuneration and took the job.

Now the government is moving the goal posts (effectively changing his contract of employment with no process of redress). Now he's being told that he will have to work 35 or even 40 years and contribute in excess of 15% to his pension fund plus shift patterns are being changed and he'll now have to cover a much greater area with the Armed Response Unit.

He and his colleagues are also mightily pissed off that they will be expected to police demonstrations when they are in full agreement with the protesters. In fact, although the police aren't permitted to go on strike themselves, they are actually considering doing so.

His reaction? He's seriously thinking of emigrating to Canada where British police officers are much in demand and treated with respect. Others of his colleagues are simply leaving the force. Sick leave is increasing exponentially.

So, Bozo, when your smug little selfish world falls apart because you are mugged, burgled or held at gunpoint and no-one responds to your 999 call – just bear in mind that it is the fault of your government.

I doubt if you'll be laughing then.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:47 AM

"and that they need to move to a defined benefits structure"

defined CONTRIBUTIONS structure!! Duh!!

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:45 AM

I note that Lloyds are shedding 15,000 jobs as of today. That'll make it a lot easier for unions to explain to striking public sector bods that banking is not being affected by the recession and belt tighteninzzzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:45 AM

And I agree on the contract issue - if someone has paid into a scheme for many years based on a specific contract and scheme-type, they should benefit from the scheme they contracted in to. But there needs to be a new set-up for more recent scheme-members and new joiners, which more accurately mirrors the kind of scheme that the majority of private-sector workers are now stuck with.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:40 AM

There are several groups in the public sector whose work, by its nature, makes retirement at an age earlier than 65 very sensible indeed. Firefighters, Paramedics and Police Officers come immediately to mind, and I would include teachers in that cadre.

However, they do need to understand that the day of the defined benefit pension scheme is over, and that they need to move to a defined benefits structure which is, simply put, much more affordable.

The vast majority of workers in the private sector who are fortunate enough to be members of an employer-supported scheme (and remember than many are not) have had to face this truth - my own Final Salary scheme was closed several years ago by my then employers, and replaced with a Money-Purchase scheme. No ifs, no buts, it was a done deal - take it or leave it - and I didn't have a Union to fight for me.

Whilst I sympathise with the above groups regarding the retirement age issue, I think they need to join the real world where pension provision is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: kendall
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:14 AM

Definition of capitalism...legal greed.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 09:12 AM

By all accounts the strike is a failure!!! I even got through to a peabrain at HM Revenue & Customs within 3 minutes this morning - it usually takes 20!!

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 08:58 AM

"Mr Backwards - buy some spectacles.

Mr. Richard Head - know your own limits, stick to conveyancing.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: bbc
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 08:38 AM

kendall, thank you for your vote of confidence. I just took early retirement from teaching, after trying to do the job of 2 people for the past 2 years. I found that, no matter how I tried or how many hours I put in, I just couldn't do it. I finally burned out. When I realized that crying almost every day over the disrespect &/ apathy I met from my students wasn't normal/healthy, I actually took medical leave & quit 3 weeks before the end of the school year. After I filed for retirement, I was told that the district was cutting back further, from 2 library positions to 1, & that I would have lost my job at the end of the year, anyway. There is little administrative regard for the work of the teachers or the best interests of the students. American education is going, more & more, to the business model, to the detriment of our future. Most teachers I know are trying hard to meet the needs of their students, but they are feeling increasingly discouraged. They try to adapt to the changing needs of today's tech generation, but with decreasing success. Fewer & fewer students, each year, seem able to relate to 3D teachers. Add to that the lack of administrative support & we have a sorry situation. I, myself, feel I'm seeing the decline of traditional libraries. I didn't feel adequate to make the transition to the future. I hope someone else in my district will. I realize this post is somewhat off-topic, but, IMO, teachers work damn hard for their money & are so often bashed.

Barbara

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 08:28 AM

PS - Bozo, check your money facts - the problems flow from the bankers stealing the money. They, not the public sector workers, poor and unwaged should pay it back.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 08:22 AM

Yes, I first heard that "billable hours" joke (better told) about Victor Mishcon. The demand for billable hours no matter the justifiability for the client was a major reason I got out of central London.

Bozo, what the relevant public sector workers have been getting were the pensions their contracts required.   For years they have been working and paying on the basis of those contracts. Now the Con-Dems (all of the MPs in which are rich bastards with never a pensions worry in the world) want to tear up those contracts and substitute worse ones.

Even the dimmest of the wannabee accountants to whom I teach business law could figure out that but for the power to make law in Parliament that would be a repudiatory breach of contract.

Mr Backwards - buy some spectacles.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 08:20 AM

Rather ironic that today I received my pension statement. When I am 65 I am entitled to £7000 per annum. Hardly a fortune to show for 18 years service.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 07:13 AM

Of course they were getting something for nothing, but now they will get slightly less - that's tough isn't it!!

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:51 AM

Teachers are in charge of our most precious resource, yet they are looked down upon as non producers. An over paid teacher? Where?

Now look at Mr. Blankenship, CEO of that coal company that kept two sets of books on safety and covered up countless violations which resulted in the deaths of 29 miners!
He just retired with an 80 million dollar bonus.Will he be held accountable for those deaths? Is the Pope a Bear?

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:36 AM

"Bonzo cook your own dinner."

You just don't like being reminded do you!!! I laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 06:15 AM

As a very honest ex Accountant, I thought I had better post something for Richard.

A group of professional men had finished a day's hunt and were relaxing around the fire. Their hunting dogs occupied a clearing nearby. One of the men observed that it was remarkable how the dogs had acquired the traits of their owners.

The musician's dog was softly howling strains of the Moonlight sonata. The engineer's dog was using his paw to perform calculations in the dust.

The lawyer's dog was screwing all the rest.


A famous lawyer found himself at heaven's gates confronting St. Peter. He protested that it was all a mistake: he was only 49 and far too young to be dead.

"That's odd," said St. Peter, "according to the hours you've billed you're 119 years old."


Did you hear about the new microwave lawyer?
You spend eight minutes in his office and get billed as if you'd been there eight hours.


Boom boom :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:58 AM

Bonzo cook your own dinner.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:33 AM

You are forgetting that none of this would have been necessary had 13 years of labour disgrace.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 05:31 AM

"for whom he works as accountant, the ultimate venal moneygrubber."

Aren't you a Legal Exec or somthing of the sort, Richard? My experience, and that of many others who have found the need to turn to the law, is that members of the legal profession are the real ultimate venal moneygrubbers.

I've never met a poor lawyer (although I've seen a few who try to look poor).

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 04:47 AM

Bonzo knows very well that people on strike don't get paid for strike days, he just never misses an opportunity to attack those who don't agree with the right wing ideals of him and his [ he thinks ] rich tory friends, they will shaft him as well if they get the chance, what plonker.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 04:22 AM

Point taken Penny. I shall contact you for support when others go off about lawyers! (grin).

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 04:03 AM

Richard, the remark about all accountants is uncalled for. There are, or at least have been, honourable accountants not involved in finding tax loopholes for their over-rich clients, who regarded their work as a service not only to their clients, but to the community. Rather like lawyers.
I remember one occasion when one of my colleagues was holding forth with your sort of remark. I pointed out, quietly, that my father was an accountant. She continued as if I had not spoken. I repeated what I had said. She continued. I got a bit louder and said I did not want to sit there and listen to her insulting my father, and thought she was rude. (Or something.) She drew herself up and said that now we knew what I was really like. I left the room.
I don't want to get louder here.
Thanks for sticking up for the teachers.
I remember getting my statement of pension, and there were the records of missed strike days back in the days of Thatcher. They remember. Teachers are prepared to damage their own pensions in the short term in order to protect them in the long. I really don't know where Bonzo gets his ideas from. And I remember the NUT saying it could not afford to fund single day strikes, when strike pay was really needed for longer strikes in particular cases, so I never had strike pay.
I feel that the argument by comparison with private pensions is specious. If business has made cuts to impoverish their employees, why should the government follow? Who makes the decisions on governance? Surely legislation to protect all workers is the answer, not the rush to the bottom. Ha ha.
Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 03:49 AM

What I see on News Programme discussions is that the teachers have already agreed to pay more than they once did and work longer and the result of this action which has already happened, there is NO SHORTFALL in what is available. The government is determinedly ignoring this fact, refusing to even discuss the reality or allow the teachers negotiators to see the real numbers, which would prove that the government does not have a leg to stand on.
Negotiation implies some form of discussing matters then trying to find points of agreement. What we have here is government sit at a table as a diversionary tactic while they tell the press that they are making unilateral changes that haven't even been under discussion. I don't call that Democracy. I call it Dictatorship.
Quack!
GtD

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Newport Boy
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 03:20 AM

This whole discussion should be unnecessary. The reason teachers and other public sector workers find it necessary to strike is that central government has failed to run an adequate pension scheme and now wants to reduce payments to balance the books.

This situation should not have arisen - other public sector pension schemes are healthy. Take my own case - a local government scheme. It's not a large scheme, currently 13,000 pensioners and 21,700 contributors. The income of the fund last year was £145 million and the expenditure £92 million. The market value of the fund was £1.5 billion, up from £0.885 billion in 2005.

This is real money - the investments actually exist and are managed by the LA treasurer (with financial advisers). So different from the teachers 'pension fund' which is a fiction in the government accounts. Contributions paid years ago were spent, and now the treasury is having to pay pensions from current taxation.

The position of my pension scheme in a turbulent period in the markets gives the lie to the proposition that we can't afford inflation-linked, final salary pension schemes. And to knock another fiction on the head, my pension and Anne's teachers pension are not 'gold-plated'.

Anne's pension is £10,360 (£9,600 after tax) and mine is £14,900 (£12,100 after tax). Multiply by 10 for MPs and 100 for bankers and company directors!

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 02:51 AM

Teachers who choose to strike will have 1/365 of their salary deducted.
There is not to be union strike pay.
Teachers in their final years who stike will have a slightly reduced pension because it is calculated on the final years of salary.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 02:33 AM

"Bozo doesn't care. He just wants to vilify workers trying to protect themselves from greedy bosses - for whom he works as accountant, the ultimate venal moneygrubber."

I have no intention of stopping work when I shortly receive my pensions - I like Business Class travel too much!!

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:19 PM

I taught for more than 30 years in a town in Rhode Island. When we had a strike, perhaps twice in my career, we had to make up the days we were on strike. So we were paid for the number of days in the school year which is set by the state. It didn't matter when those days were. Otherwise we would have been teaching on make-up days without being paid. I would call that slavery. The strikes in my school system were blessedly short. I think if we had been out for 10 school days we could have received "strike pay" from our union, but we would have had to pay it back when we resumed work. It's really a loan from a fund that we paid into with our union dues.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:50 PM

I think that state legislators and governors who spend tax payers dollars and time time bashing teachers should not be paid...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:18 PM

I like the "cook your own dinner" tactic.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 06:38 PM

Bozo doesn't care. He just wants to vilify workers trying to protect themselves from greedy bosses - for whom he works as accountant, the ultimate venal moneygrubber.


Wall, mofo

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 06:18 PM

Teachers in the UK do not get paid by their employers when they strike. If they get any money at all it comes from their union ~ if they are in one. They pay quite a lot annually to be in a union and strike rarely; I cannot see a problem with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:43 PM

BONZO you are entitled to your opinion,I disagree with you. Bonzo I think you should cook your own dinner, what is the matter with you are you on strike, if you were cooking your own dinner you would not have time to post this.
you should not be allowed to not cook your dinner when you are on strike, neither should you be allowed to post your opinions when you are on strike, become a twenty first century man, and start cooking your own dinner

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:33 PM

I suppose it's true that some teachers are lazy, incompetent, and overpaid.

Now, Joe, if you'd said "Some people are lazy, incompetent, and overpaid" you'd be a lot nearer the truth.

Part of the worldwide - but especially vicious in the U.S.- to demonize public workers, public employee unions & etc as exemplified by Snyder in Michigan, Cuomo in NY & numerous other Koch brothers & Teabagger governors in states.

Its uncalled for, unfair, untrue and idiotic.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:04 PM

>>>
'"The government is trying to change their contracts half way through the job by lowering pensions and lengthening the work time needed to qualify for one.
"

Just the same for people working in industry.'<<<

I don't think you can show me an example of that happening in industry. It would be against the law. But keep in mind that the contracts are limited to one or two year terms.

If the Conservative government is proposing breaking a contract before its term is up, then they are breaking the law. If they are proposing changing the terms when current contracts expire. They are abiding by the law and it becomes a collective but legal fight.

>Labour leader Ed Miliband said the strikes would be a "mistake", and that both sides should get back round the negotiating table." Even Labour don't agree with the strike.<

Are you serious? Do you thing that the so called Labour Party speaks for the unions? Did you sleep through Tony Blair's leadership?

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 05:01 PM

In the course of my teaching career I have been involved in a couple of strikes and on no occasion have I been paid by either my employers or my union. Noone wants to strike but when the government refuse to see the consequences of their cuts it is sometimes necessary to make them sit up and think. The strike is not the fault of the teachers!

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 04:53 PM

"The state pension age is due to rise to 66 for both men and women by April 2020."

Sick bastards! Why aren't people protesting in the streets en masse NOW? I thought the goal was a BETTER standard of living????

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 04:29 PM

From BBC News
"Business leaders have warned of the impact of the walkout on the economy.

The British Chambers of Commerce said many parents would lose pay for taking the day off work to look after their children, and productivity would be hit.

Labour leader Ed Miliband said the strikes would be a "mistake", and that both sides should get back round the negotiating table."

Even Labour don't agree with the strike.

Nobody is thinking about the time lost for children trying to learn (I am not talking about the plebs who do not want to learn).

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:59 PM

"The government is trying to change their contracts half way through the job by lowering pensions and lengthening the work time needed to qualify for one.
"

Just the same for people working in industry.

State pension may be but occupational pension does not even seem to be the same for all public sector workers. To quote the BBC:

"The government wants public sector workers - bar the armed forces, police and fire service - to receive their occupational pension at the same time as the state pension in future. Many can currently receive a full pension at 60. The state pension age is due to rise to 66 for both men and women by April 2020"

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:59 PM

Thanks for the clarification. I don't think anyone here would disagree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:50 PM

I was being called for dinner - what I meant to put was:

I see absolutely no reason why any teacher striking this Thursday should be paid for that day.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:50 PM

'"The government is trying to change their contracts half way through the job by lowering pensions and lengthening the work time needed to qualify for one.
"

Just the same for people working in industry.'

Too true, and it's wrong there, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:25 PM

http://www.nebusiness.co.uk/business-news/business-comment/2011/06/27/taking-lawful-strike-action-is-a-human-right-51140-28946339/

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:25 PM

"The government is trying to change their contracts half way through the job by lowering pensions and lengthening the work time needed to qualify for one.
"

Just the same for people working in industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:22 PM

I suppose it's true that some teachers are lazy, incompetent, and overpaid. I put four children through school, served on a Catholic school board, and attended school myself for a good number of years. In all that time, I rarely encountered these "lazy, incompetent, overpaid" teachers that people complain so much about. Most of the time, I have been infinitely impressed by the dedication, hard work, wisdom, and love that teachers have given me and my children. It may well be the toughest job in the world.

But I'm still wondering about the original question about striking teachers being paid - how can anyone question union workers receiving strike pay from their union? Don't they have a right to that?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:20 PM

Thanks for the explanation, vectis.

punkfolkrocker, good luck to you and you mrs. It is too high a toll to pay in the long run.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: vectis
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:11 PM

The only pay they will get will be in the form of strike pay from their unions. The employers will not pay NI or pensions contributions for any day, or part day, when an employee is striking.

they paid in for their pension and the money should have been ring fenced and sensibly invested to provide their pensions, like the Gas Board did, not frittered away by government who have now decided they can't pay them what they reckon they have paid in for.

The average pension expected by most public sector workers is well below the £6,000 quoted, caretakers and cleaners would be rolling in it if they got that amount.

The buggers that have mismanaged the pension funds will get a ring fenced pension of about £30,000 a year even those that committed fraud and theft when they were in power. PLUS they avoided prosecution by the lily livered twats in charge of the CPS; when the rest of us would have been done and lost jobs and pensions even if we managed to avoid jail.

The government is trying to change their contracts half way through the job by lowering pensions and lengthening the work time needed to qualify for one.

No wonder they are striking.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM

I never belonged to a union. I never supported one. But they have a role to play. The law is the law and their contracts are contracts. What ever they legally do, its their right to do.

Public service unions have to consider public opinion. But their strike pay, as long as it is legal is a red herring.

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 03:03 PM

after nearly 30 years of dedicated teaching my mrs is at near emotional breaking point..
..all the extra work pressures & stress heaped on in the last few years.

Although she agrees in principle with the strike,
fearful for our future financial wellbeing as we get older;

her school will stay open
because [unofficial] staffroom consensus is
too many of the parents are so thick and drug addled confrontational
it'll be too much potential risk trying to explain the reasons for striking
while they get aggressive
arguing why they can't dump their kids off for a day....

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM

Forgot to say, if you can read this thank a teacher!

Subject: RE: BS: Striking teachers should lose pay
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 02:57 PM

Amen to that, SRS. If some people had their way, teachers wouldn't be paid at all. THAT is not a true American tradition. My ancestors, parents, and siblings all valued good teachers and education...and a lot of them were/are teachers. The day we honour those to whom we entrust our children and their young minds, with pay as much as a big league ballplayer or a ceo, or even a skilled, licensed professional, will be a great day for our nation, but it doesn't look very bright on that horizon.

And maybe if they received fair compensation for their education and work they wouldn't go on strike to begin with. All depends whose dog is in the fight!

Well said, Bruce!