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Subject: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: autolycus Date: 04 Jul 11 - 06:18 AM Two errors circulate even within the scientific community. One is that a German scientist made a decimal placing error resulting in an erroneous belief or two about the iron content of spinach. The other is that the creator of Popeye attributed his hero's strength to spinach when he actually said it was vitamin A. The article in the following link thoroughly examines the whole business and asks pertinently at the conclusion "What exactly is it about the SPIDES that enabled it to become so socially embedded that even sceptical academics writing critical papers on the need to be sceptical simply believed in it?" [I'll give the link in the next post cos if I now go and copy the link, this post will get lost.] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: autolycus Date: 04 Jul 11 - 06:19 AM Here's the link. It's a long and interesting article. http://www.internetjournalofcriminology.com/Sutton_Spinach_Iron_and_Popeye_March_2010.pdf |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: JohnInKansas Date: 04 Jul 11 - 06:46 AM Clickified: Spinach etc. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: JohnInKansas Date: 04 Jul 11 - 07:56 AM It's a long and interesting article. Certainly it's looooong. Although he posits the important question of whether spinach consumption actually did increase because of Popeye, he seems to have forgotten that he thought it important at the beginning, and fails to provide any actual citations to production or consumption trends. He gives only one "spot number" with no citation that I noticed. A factor I would think might be of significance is that my recollection of 1943 canned spinach was of a noxious bitter mush that even the chickens ignored when it was thrown out with the slop. (Raw tomatoes were the only other thing they wouldn't eat.) By ca 1946-48 improvements in canning/processing made something more or less edible of it; and it could be that "product improvements" had a significant influence on consumption. He suggests that programs to relieve "post-war nutritional deficits" may have had lots of influence, and both "Victory gardens" and post-war home gardens often (in my area) included small amounts of spinach, but it was largely because the bugs liked it less, so it required less tending than other leafy greens. My own family mostly preferred turnips, since they gave you greens (stewed top leaves) and starch (potato substitute with less digging?), although most of the (white) turnip bulbs were eaten raw. It would be interesting to know if the author is old enough to remember "back then," or if he's another kid with an "interesting question" trying to invent unrecorded history. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Jul 11 - 09:35 AM John- Long, indeed. Thanks for the summary. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Dave Hanson Date: 04 Jul 11 - 10:37 AM Does anyone care ? Popeye was a cartoon ffs not to be taken seriously, I watched it as a child, it never made me want to eat spinnach. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: autolycus Date: 04 Jul 11 - 11:01 AM The subtitle of the article is "Ironic lessons from biochemistry and history on the importance of healthy eating, healthy scepticism and adequate citation". What the article shows is that even scientific researchers and journal editors [not to mention peer reviewers] are quite as capable of generating and sustaining myths as anyone. The myth that anyone suggested that spinach contained such a lot of iron that eating it would make you strong is a myth, partly created by a scientific writer. The myth has been sustained by a series of researchers, scientists, journals, science editors and so on not checking their facts. It's a bit incidental but interesting about Popeye. Despite his creator making it quite clear that Popeye's strength came from vitamin A, writers of all sorts have kept another myth going. So for anyone interested in ways in which factual errors persist, the article is fascinating. helps to explain why people believe stuff known to be not so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Mrrzy Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:04 PM I'm popeye the sailor man I live in a garbage can I love to go swimmin with bare-nekkid wimmin I'm popeye the sailor man! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: JohnInKansas Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:32 PM The up-front message of the article is that when "facts" are quoted without verification or traceability, the "facts" quoted usually have almost nothing to do with the "purpose" of the statement. This is a hallmark of a method sometimes called PROPAGANDA, but this author argues that it can happen just from carelessness (although he borders on calling it incompetence in his argument). In "proper scientific correspondence" it is necessary that an author assume that the targeted readers will be at least as smart as (s)he is, and should anticipate the demand for complete and accurate citations. The most frequent basis for a slip into PROPAGANDA happens when some one assumes a stupid audience that will accept whatever they're told is true - which permits the omission of citation of independent sources and supporting evidence. A writer who claims something without evidence is, in effect, telling you that "YOU'RE TO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND THIS, SO TAKE MY WORD FOR IT." That's not good science (but in most cases it's probably right, for the majority of "believers"). (I generally suspend belief.) While, as the article notes, the internet has made searches somewhat easier, it remains very difficult to find verifiable information. Most "possibly valid" scientific reports are controlled by academic societies (the publishers) and authors can get by with bogus citations since it costs, on average, around $30 =$60 (US) - or more - to get a copy of each cited article even if they're available, and the same to get anything but an abstract of the original article so that you can even see the list of citations, especially if you're not a "member." Some "societies" give members free copies, but many only offer "reduced rates for members." Society Memberships in several in which I suspect lots of "bogus reporting" run above $1,000 (US) each (per year), which precludes getting a discount in more than a couple - for most people affected by the claims. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Bill D Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:49 PM ♫ "I'm Popeye the Sailor Man, I'm Popeye the Sailor Man. I fights to the finish 'Cause I eats my spinach! I'm Popeye the Sailor Man." ♫ No mention of Vitamin A FROM Popeye, no matter what the author might have believed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Bettynh Date: 04 Jul 11 - 01:01 PM In one of his many essays Stephen Jay Gould explored the idea that chunks of textbook "facts" were copied over and over, sometimes for a century. In particular, he traced the idea that a horse ancestor was "the size of an Irish wolfhound." The same phrase occurred for decades, though very few authors could explain what size an Irish wolfhound is and very few people have actually seen one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: autolycus Date: 04 Jul 11 - 01:11 PM Bill The situation looks rather different once you've [.e.anyone's] read the article. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: GUEST,Big Ballad Singer Date: 04 Jul 11 - 01:50 PM Bill D, I believe you're mistaken. I'm Popeye the sailor man, I'm Popeye the sailor man, I'm STRONG TO the finich (sic) 'Cause I eats me spinach I'm Popeye the sailor man. Watching Popeye as a kid actually DID make me want to eat spinach... still does sometimes. Slight thread-creep here: Anyone have a preference as to WHICH Popeye cartoons they like better? I enjoy the very earliest ones much more than the later ones with the Jeep (or whatever it was) and all the rest. I much prefer the story lines that have Popeye and Bluto in their respective roles as seamen on shore leave rather than in all the other occupations they later took on. Still fun stuff after all these years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Bill D Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:21 PM "I'm STRONG TO the finich" hmmm... you mean my 65 year old memories are NOT precise? *grin* I must have 'folk processed it'. thanks, BBS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:53 PM Seventy-plus memories are even better ! I watched most of the popeye cartoons and comics, and don't remember anything about any particular vitamin being mentioned. Also distributed under our desks in school were little Popeye comic books, showing Olive Oyl being buggered or involved in various kama sutra like acts, Popeye's dripping giant instrument, and all the other characters being involved in various sexual acts, legal or illegal (before laws on sodomy ceased to be inforced). Some years ago the WHO put out a statement that spinich was bad for teeth because of the acid action. I remember telling my wife 'hooray'. I do eat it now in salads, if the young leaves are available in the market. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:09 PM Popeye ate Spinach for Vitamin A, There is Vitamin A in abundance in Carrots. Bugs Bunny eats carrots. Coincidence? I think not!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:24 PM Spinach has no vitamin A; it does have beta carotene which is partly converted into vitamin A in the body. (so same action, just being pedantic). Spinach is high in iron, which my doctor advises me to minimise in consumption, but is OK for my wife. I happen to like carrots, so eat them often, usually raw. They may be iron-rich also, but I don't care. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Jul 11 - 03:47 PM I don't think that they are iron rich. My question is do you "smoke" carrots like a cigar a say "neahhh, What's up Doc?" after each bite as I did when I was a kid? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: autolycus Date: 04 Jul 11 - 06:16 PM Interestingly, what I detect from the answers is akin to some of what the author of the article was pointing to. Here is one sentence from the author's abstract on what he's on about. "this article reinforces the importance of citation to support all assertions of fact." There's managing responses while ignoring what the article has to say about it. It is talking about popular myths and fallacies after all. There's relying on potentially unreliable sources. There's assuming that one's experience is all one needs to go on. Here's a quote from the article immediately beneath the strip cartoon frame about vitamin A. " This cartoon (Fig 3) shows Popeye explaining for the very first time why he eats spinach. Of the hundreds of Popeye cartoons studied to date for this article18 not one makes even the slightest association between spinach and iron. This one cartoon, which appeared in print on July 3rd 1932,19 exposes a major part of the SPIDES as an absolute load of old codswallop. In the 1920's, scientists found that they could significantly improve children's nutrition with vitamin A derived from spinach (see: Willimott and Wokes 1927).With the benefit of proper research, the fact that Segar's choice of spinach for Popeye in 1932 was due to its vitamin A content, and not iron, comes as no surprise." So there you have, inter alia, chapter and verse for the vitamin A association. Not the association of subsequent cartoons,as posters were saying upthread, but the association in the mind of Popeye's creator - a different question. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Bill D Date: 04 Jul 11 - 08:09 PM Good thing it was spinach... "I'm strong to the finish 'cause I eats my rutabagas." wouldn't scan too well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: GUEST,Jon Date: 04 Jul 11 - 09:07 PM But "I'll finish the deed" or "I am no weed", etc. "cause I eat my swede" might. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Jul 11 - 09:13 PM I'm strong as an ox cause I eat my lox? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Jul 11 - 10:30 PM So- citation for Segar selecting spinich for its vitamin A content?. (And no one said he selected it for its iron content, that was noted in passing). As posted, it doesn't have vitamin A either, it has beta carotine. Whatever whatever, I don't care, so forget it forget it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: autolycus Date: 05 Jul 11 - 03:32 AM Q, you did say "don't remember anything about any particular vitamin being mentioned." So one tale here is still about how we might value our memories above other parts of reality. Just the kind of thing to hover behind voting, buying/not buying, choices of friends and much more. It'san interesting situation I've met when seeing clients as a therapist The more important point of the article is the uncovering of the myth of a german scientist misplacing a decimal point, leading to a misplaced valuing of spinach for its iron content. And the even more important point that misinformation can spread in the scientific community just as elsewhere. Who's have thunk that. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Jul 11 - 03:04 AM I've had a preference for spinach all my life, and it's greatly because of Popeye the Sailor. I use fresh or frozen spinach, rarely canned. C'mon, it's a green, leafy vegetable - it MUST be really good for me, right? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: autolycus Date: 06 Jul 11 - 03:07 AM Yes it must, Joe. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 06 Jul 11 - 09:00 AM I have heard about the iron content error that stuck. Old cookery books that followed continued to show that spinach had the highest iron content because of that error, we now know that broccoli is just as good for you with just as high iron content. Thank goodness for (The New) Popeye which was still around when my sons were small. They really believed myth as I did and were happy to swallow it down. Thank goodness for Popeye I bet a lot of mothers felt the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Jul 11 - 06:46 AM though very few authors could explain what size an Irish wolfhound is and very few people have actually seen one. Now that is another generalised assertion that just wouldn't stand up to examination. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 07 Jul 11 - 07:10 AM What I didn't know back then was the right way to cook it and ended up with a horrible shrivelled green mush, any iron content went right out of the window! It only needs a short amount of time, I usually add it to things towards the end of cooking rather than on it's own but if I do prefer to steam it in minimal water. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Ed T Date: 07 Jul 11 - 11:30 AM Spinish is good for yoiu, and they also say fish is good for you:) Codified |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spinach Popeye Iron Decimal Error Story From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Jul 11 - 03:45 PM Fresh young green spinich is good in salads. To cook, either steam briefly, toss with soft butter, and white pepper and/or a touch of spices of your choice, or cook briefly with only a very small bit of water and butter, thyme and white pepper. Several of the restaurants here serve the young leaves with other vegetables in salad, or even as part of the layer of vegetables or which meat is resting. Salt- we do not add, and one may salt to taste when it is served. Many people have a habit of throwing vegetables or greens in a pan of water and cooking in this way- often to the limp and slimy or mush stage, a sure way to turn one off vegetables forever. |
