BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity

Subject: BS: Dirty Diaper = Dignity
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 01:50 PM

Makes me positively sick that the council can tell anyone that lying in your own bodily waste for up to 12 hours does not breach your dignity.

Stroke victim loses appeal to have night carer assist her with toileting. Council told her to use incontinence pads. She is not incontinent. She simply cannot get out of bed and to the toilet on her own. Since she cannot have a night carer, she must now go to bed at 8pm with help of carer and wait until 8 am for carer to arrive.

This is actually imprisoning her in bed for 12 hours.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 02:49 PM

This is frightening. She is alone in the house, virtually trapped in bed, no matter what might occur. It is also disgusting. I can't imagine anything more undignified. It's "Yer on yer own mate, so get on with it!" in UK nowadays. Poor lady, and she was awarded the OBE earlier in her life. Nobody honours her now do they? Makes me fume.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 02:51 PM

OMG. I am disgusted! Someone needs a good thrashing. Absolutely unacceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Penny S.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 04:22 PM

I am reminded of a situation some years back when the mother of a colleague had cancer, and was taken on a regular basis from one hospital to another for treatment. As part of her condition, she needed to visit the toilet frequently, and would leave the ambulance at one of its calls (it was one which was more like a bus, with seated patients) for that purpose. This irritated the driver, who went to her hospital and insited that she be fitted with a catheter for the journey. Not for medical reasons at all, and unnecessary and invasive. She tried to protest, with no avail. My colleague, a member of the Red Cross, turned up in full uniform and spoke to the driver about the matter, and he was ready to consider the issue, until he became aware that she was the daughter, at which point he became angry. The situation could not be changed. Though she was not incontinent, she was forced to undergo this procedure for the convenience of a man who should have been caring for her.

All I can wish these people is that the same happens to them. It is appalling.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 04:41 PM

I'm sad to say it is back to the same old story... resources don't allow for many things within our care systems, which are slowly being eroded over time. I am sure someone will be made a scapegoat as usual, in every situation like this, but it does come down to resources. Local authorities do not have enough staff to cover all the things they NEED to cover so something has to give.... Same with Child Care... Social workers covering more cases than they can comfortably handle.. baby dies... who gets blamed??? Not enough Police Officers available so when your home gets burgled.. you may have to wait hours for one to be available.... that's our society folks!!! It is going to get worse in the next round of 'cutbacks' due to lack of budget.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 04:42 PM

Apparently, my hypotheisis that there are a lot of stunned as me arse people populating the general public is true.... as well as callous ones. So sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 04:44 PM

So elect a government that accepts responsibility and will raise taxes to fund necessary parts of the welfare state. I'm bemused how the Supreme court could have reached this decision, though. Plenty of judges are prepared to stand up to government bully boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Morticia
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:22 PM

Because they know there are not enough resources to fund decent care for life and death, never mind 'dignity'and forget 'quality of life'.

I have people who have been in hospital since January because there is no money to get them out and into good or even mediocre nursing care.They get C-diff, they get MRSA, they lose the will to live and then they die.

You get the care system you pay for folks, simple as that.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Stu
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:34 PM

Tory is Irish for 'robber' or 'brigand'.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:37 PM

It's sad that so many vulnerable and ill people live entirely alone and seem to have no family willing or able to be there for them. I imagine that in an extended family set-up of the past, someone would always have been available to help with feeding, toileting etc. even during the night. This lady's solitary helplessness is heartrending.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:45 PM

Has anyone called/written the AEA in England?

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 06:00 PM

Can't get out of bed? What if there's a fire or other emergency?

What this woman needs is a better place to live.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 12:14 AM

Surely the European Court of Human Rights would overturn this ruling. The prospect of getting old and needing care is terrifying to me. Not just the care bit but the potential isolation and lonliness just does't bare thinking about.
I suppose this is what it is hoped Big Society will do. That someone or entity will step in to fill these gaps in care.
The wider the gap the more shock and outrage provoked, then local community problem solving will begin. It is a pshychological game the government is playing. Trying to force the public at large to do what we thought we paid into the tax system for.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 02:09 AM

Guest Eliza made a good point there... where are the families of these people... most care some 50 years ago came from families and friends but none of them want the responsibility now.. It is easier to blame the people who are desperately trying to care for others with an extremely low budget and not enough manpower when things go wrong than to get off their backsides and do it themselves!

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 02:25 AM

We do not know that this lady has surviving parents (indeed she probably hasn't) and it would seem unlikely that if she has they would be able to do anything. We do not know that she has surviving siblings, and even if she has the same applies. Did she marry? I do not know. If she did her husband may well not have survived - or be able to assist. If she divorced, that is the end of his obligations save as determined in the divorce.

Ah, you may say, where are her children?

What is WRONG with you? Do you think women are breeding machines? She may have no or no surviving children. If she has they may be alienated, or they may be hundreds or thousands of miles away.


Your proposition, Georgiansilver, is retrograde and revolting. There is such a thing as society, and care for the vulnerable no longer should fall only on the family, but is rightly the responsibility of society, the state. The "Big Society" is a cynical cop-out that might be of marginal assistance in leafy suburbia where the flowered hat brigade can swan about in the spare time created by her servants, but it is no use in most of the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Penny S.
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 03:37 AM

I have a friend whose mother regards the only purpose of her only child is to be her carer. She has ruined his life. He will have no child to be his lifeline at the end.

I am single, and do not expect any of my nephews and nieces to take on my care in old age. I am dreading my end. I think when it comes down to lying alone in my faeces I will accelerate the dying process.

There have been thousands of women left without partners after the wars who must have faced the same state.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 05:46 AM

Richard, why retrograde and revolting... the problems in our society with regard to family matters come mainly from people negating their own responsibility for their elderly and their offspring.... Most of the 'Care system' for both the elderly and the young sprung up in the 1960s.. yes I did say most as there was a minimal system before then but a lot of which was dealt with by 'mental health' institutions.... Mental hospitals took in pregnant teenage girls, elderly with dementia/alzheimers/schizophrenia.... and most elderly parents were looked after by families, as I believe many ought to be now. However, so many people are caught up in their own selfish lives that family just don't matter the same as they did 50 years ago... I call that retrograde and revolting. My sisters and I looked after our parents.. and my Dad after mum had gone. My daughter has expressed that she wants to look after me when I can't hack it any more... although, being the independent that I am I would rather not be a burden.
Richard.. you stated >>>>>>> We do not know that this lady has surviving parents (indeed she probably hasn't) and it would seem unlikely that if she has they would be able to do anything. We do not know that she has surviving siblings, and even if she has the same applies. Did she marry? I do not know. If she did her husband may well not have survived - or be able to assist. If she divorced, that is the end of his obligations save as determined in the divorce.
Ah, you may say, where are her children?
What is WRONG with you? Do you think women are breeding machines? She may have no or no surviving children. If she has they may be alienated, or they may be hundreds or thousands of miles away.<<<<<<< Maybe she has no surviving relatives but most people have and a lot of them are in a similar situation to her... Yes, I do think most women are breeding(but not machines). What is WRONG with me is I have a different viewpoint to you!!
Having worked within a diminishing care system in this country I guess I do know a little of what I am talking about............

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 05:48 AM

Richard, you are right of course, this particular lady may have no-one at all, although I read today that her partner tried to care for her but ended up having a nervous breakdown and had to leave. All I was saying was that in the past, families tended to stay together and there was often somebody to pop in and out. There were often many family members living in the same street or round the corner. Nowadays it just isn't feasable, with most folk out at work and unable to do those things. I wouldn't want to be a burden on either my husband or sister if I became helpless. The State should be prepared to give all the help needed. I for one would be happy to accept a rise in Taxes to fund care for the helpless and alone. Care packages also provide work for many.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 06:01 AM

It's nonsense to say "there are not the resources" - there are the resources, but they are used for different things, the wrong things. Including paying obscene amounts of money to parasites at the top of society, and generally paying rates of income tax which are ludicrously low compared to a few decades ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: GUEST,Morticia
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 06:09 AM

Sorry GS but what drivel. The great work diaspora in the 70's and 80's meant that many less families live up the road or round the corner from their family. The breakdown of tradtional families has mean many reconstituted families where families ties are weaker or non-existant. The current economic climate means that very many fewer people ( women usually) can give up working to care for older or disabled relatives and so many are simply surviving in these days with one or more jobs, time poor no matter how much they care emotionally.
Add into that think about how hard this government, and the one before and the one before that have made it to be a carer, little or no respite, little or no day services, little or no support of any kind.
And I am still working in the 'care' system and doing my best, as we all are, to make diminishing resources meet increasing needs. We could use a few less wars and a bit more social care in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 06:37 AM

The reason that GS's solution (and guest Eliza's) is retrograde and revolting is that it internalises distress - leaves it to a few (or none at all) to carry the burden. It negates the entire proposition of insurance ("National Insurance" remember) - all pay a little, and when and if disaster strikes the sufferers are cushioned.

The particularly revolting proposition is that it is up to children to care for parents - that means that women must breed to be cared for. They are not brood mares.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 08:24 AM

I am an only one, single and I have two sons but because of the circumstances I am not expecting care in my old age from them. One of my sons could not be expected to because he has mental health problems of his own. I can only hope that I am never unfortunate to be in that situation but the horror stories I have read fills me with dread. However there are many full-on very young carers who do an amazing job and carry on with school work and exams to cope with regardless and possibly younger brothers or sisters to keep an eye on too. I cannot imagine they would suddenly cease to care when the parents grow old.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 08:44 AM

I have mixed feelings about a number of issues raised by this thread which are not necessarily specific to the story in question. But in particular comments regarding the relationship between family and their elderly, it does seem a sad sign of the times when older people feel almost compelled to announce: "I don't want to be a burden on my kids when I'm no longer able to do everything for myself!", when in point of fact no doubt they would be personally far happier living amongst family, rather than housed in some anonymous institution.

That "burden" word is the one I have trouble with. Yes, familial responsibilities can be burdensome, but then so are many of the responsibilities of life such as paying taxes, feeding and clothing ones children, getting up a 7am every week day to do something you don't necessarily love doing, and so-on.

Note I'm not contradicting comments about NI contributions or the necessary default of State care, merely wondering about prevailing contemporary Western cultural assumptions (which are quite unusual when taking a broader view both globally and historically) regarding the relationship between 'the family' and their elderly, who it would appear, have little or no place in contemporary Western ideas - and indeed perhaps most importantly, ideals - about what such a unit naturally comprises.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 09:39 AM

Patsy, good point! Yet again the system lets down working-class children. Unseen, unnoticed and with very little in the way of advocacy, thousands of children from low income backgrounds bare the heavy responsibilities of adults, day in and day out, working as unpaid carers for adults who are unable to care for themselves, whilst simultaneously trying to balance school and "growing up".

This is something I would really like to see some attention paid to by the State. But children being children don't go on marches or make banners or go to the press like savvy adults would, they just get on with doing what they are used to doing, so they just go-on unnoticed while their issues go-on unaddressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Penny S.
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 09:57 AM

I've seen programmes in which such children are given awards - but no-one seems to think that arrangements should be made to relieve them of burdens they just should not be bearing. Only the occasional respite weekend. And what will happen to such children when they grow up, still caring, miss the opportunity to have relationships of their own, and end up uncared for?

I did not see, but saw reported, a case of a blind couple who had had children solely as carers for themselves, and the children started the caring at appallingly young ages. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

I notice that little discussion is about the disgusting assumption that it is OK to leave people lying in dirty nappies. That it was normal was what lost the woman her case, so there are many, many more people in this state.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 10:09 AM

Part of the problem is that medicine is able to make us live so much longer when age and infirmity once was the solution to its own problem. The population of disabled people has grown exponentially. Can National Insurance support quality of life at the same pace that medicine and the NHS provides quantity of life?
Transient poplations mean there are no longer pockets of relations living near enough to provide support. Dismantling of communities by taking out industry contributed to that.
Can anyone think of someother solution to this problem? Clearly the government is not a viable partner in the solution this problem anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Morticia
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 12:33 PM

Well surely it is up to us as a 'civilised' nation to speak out against it somehow being okay to leave our elderly and disabled dying in hospitals and care homes,abused, malnourished, dehydrated and covered in sores and faeces.

The press are all over one child dying in circumstances that no-one could have known or predicted and no, I'm not making excuses except that we ( social workers) are not omniscient and we are over worked and made to spend 70% of our time in front of a computer ticking boxes rather than with a person.

Where is Murdoch and Co when some poor old sod dies alone, neglected in the very institutions that we pay to care for them? Where are the news headlines then? Why aren't people up in arms and harrying their politicians for change? Let's face it, people prefer to read about some idiot celebrity and their idiot affaires, don't they?

We are all quiet about killing our own teenagers and young people in Libya and Iraq and we are all quiet about the scandal that is health and social care in this country and why? Because no one gives a shit really, which is astonishing unless we somehow think it won't be us in 10 or 20 years. We are the solution, but we have to give a damn.

I'll put my soapbox away now.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 01:01 PM

How many of us even live in the same town as our parents? Or have grown children living in the same town as we do?

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 01:37 PM

Ironic that geriatric papers like the Mail support the governments that do most to damage elderly care.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 05:26 AM

It is also disturbing to see how many neglected elderly people are on the streets I see this quite often in Bristol.

Subject: RE: BS: Dirty Diaper Dignity
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jul 11 - 05:57 AM

If you'd like to complain about the predicament of this poor lady then please phone [phone] which is The Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea.

Speak to Zahed, in Social Services..and he will arrange for someone to phone you back.

They are not allowed to comment on this case.

I went nuts to him about this decision, because it's so utterly appalling and has robbed this lady of her dignity..

I never thought I'd live to see this day come in my country, but there we are, The Bastards Are In Charge, of the UK and The World...

I know that sure as hell unless we all stand together to make our voices heard, then this sort of appaling situation will happen over and again, to the extent where a whole new generation just 'accepts it' as normal...

It's fooking disgusting!

I explained to him that I often spend my days clearing up poo...and I know how dreadful it makes folks feel when they cannot control their bodies any longer..

Sometimes ALL that you have left as an elderly person is your dignity and to even take THAT away is NOT acceptable.

This country is NOT broke! We have billions to go to war, to invade, to give away to other countries, whilst our own people are being treated in this way.

It well and truly sucks..

So don't just write on here, use your voice, makes yourselves heard and tell The Royal Borough of Kensington & Chelsea how angry you are!

020 7361 3000 - Phone. NOW!