BS: Sloppy use of language

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 01:42 PM

Yes, I had to think twice about it, but it means 'full of gratitude' not 'full of greatness'.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 02:01 PM

Ships are accorded the gender 'she' in all English-speaking regions. Gender for trucks is new to me, although some individuals apply human characteristics to their vehicles.

James Clavell was the son of Commander Richard Clavell of the British Royal Navy. He followed in a military career, a Captain in the Royal Artillery until an injury forced retirement from the service.
I believe his credentials with regard to writing about ships and the sea are impeccable.
He, and his widow, sponsored the archives of the Royal Artillery Library, which now bears his name.
A writer and producer in tha American film industry, he took American citizenship, but continued his interest in, and support of, the Royal Artillery.
Incidentally, he produced "To Sir, with Love," and translated "The Art of War" from the Chinese.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 04:40 PM

Authors put their blood, sweat and tears into their work.

A good editor is the heart that circulates that blood correctly, mops up the sweat and dries the tears sufficiently to make authors readable.

This might not apply to one in a thousand authors but I think one in ten would totally fail without a good editor.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:07 PM

As regards "try and...." it has taken on enough colloquial momentum to steamroller any faint protests on the grounds of correctness; it is still mostly incorrect, however. I can conceive of structuring a sentence using "try and" --such as Better to try, and fail, than never to try.--but not using "and" as the auxiliary to an infinitive. Where this is done the colloquialism seems to assume that the "to" is understood in the second infinitive, but it still clangs.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:23 PM

There is also "go and ..." as in "go and see what is happening", and there is "wait and ...", as in "wait and see what happens", and "stop and ...", as in "stop and tie a shoelace". You can probably think of others. Do these upset the people who get all hot under the collar about "try and ..."?

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 03:45 AM

Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English (so well used that the cover, and date, are missing, but definitely late twentieth century, and very useful for providing American variations) under 'careen' has only one meaning:

verb esp. AmE [=American English]: to go forward rapidly while making sudden movements from side to side.

Nothing about boats at all.

Q has posted a relevant message on the "threat to the English language" thread, quoting similar uses.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,Ripov
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 08:11 AM

"go and see", "wait and see" - in each case both actions are performed. "Try and see" implies trying (or testing) and seeing, and is justified in "These are nice chocolates, try [one] and see [what you think]. In this case both actions are again performed.
But compare -
"Go and try and see" - do three things;
"Go and try to see" - do one thing and attempt to do another;
and then try to see which has the desired meaning.

Personally I'm puzzled by the store which advertises its prices as "30% less". I want to know which of their competitors gives the full 100% reduction.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: EBarnacle
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 11:32 AM

His credentials may be impeccable but his usages are not. Now, I have to look up the exact page(s) of my citation about the reference to the same vessel and its commander in several different ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:42 PM

Many ships are involved in Tai-pan. A flock of Clouds, competitors' ships, lorchas, etc. Sone merchant men were gunned, also depot ships, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,scorpio
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:54 PM

We seem to have two different categories here - misuse of a term, and not thinking about what you are saying. Good examples of the latter include the famous British football commentator - "If that had gone in the back of the net, it would have been a goal!", and a magistrate in Birmingham who sentenced a youth with the the words " It is obvious that you haven't learned anything from your last term in prison, so I am sending you back there again!"

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 09:32 PM

G'day GUEST Topsie,

"Longman Dictionary of Contemporary* English (so well used that the cover, and date, are missing, but definitely late twentieth century, and very useful for providing American variations) under 'careen' has only one *meaning:

verb esp. AmE [=American English]: to go forward rapidly while making sudden movements from side to side."

My (work) desk dictionary: Oxford Concise Australian Dictionary, Third edition, (1997) also gives the established (i.e. - not merely contemporary) "Turn (a ship) on one side for cleaning, caulking, or repair ...", which goes all the way back to the Latina root carina, keel.

I will have to check, at home with the full Oxford English Dictionary on Historical Principles to see how far back the correct usage goes, before the American confusion with "career, noted elsewhere in the entry ... but the example Q quoted is correct usage ... even for an American!

Regard(les)s,

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: EBarnacle
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 11:19 PM

Careen is still contemporary usage for those of us who are unwilling to pay for a haul when a job can be done between tides. It requires good ground tackle and a willingness to work with the demands of Mother Nature. I've done it and recommend it to those boat owners who feel competent to take care of things in isolated areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 01:14 AM

Just to cross-ref ~~ I started the 'careen' discussion on the "TransAtlantic differences" thread, but someone seems to have transferred it to this one: not sure why. So, for those interested, more on this topic over there.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 11:53 AM

The term that I despise is: 'Centre of Excellence'. My old employer once took an ordinary office, painted the walls, installed a white board and then began to refer to it as 'The Centre of Excellence'. We held the same sort of meetings in the re-furbished office as we had in the shabby, old office!

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 08:17 AM

BBC Radio 4 news a few minutes ago, reporting on the deaths from insulin poisoning at a hospital in Stockport, said that a spokesman had described the deaths as 'criminal acts with malicious intent'.
Presumably the deaths were the RESULT of criminal acts, it isn't yet a crime to die.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 10:45 AM

You say "flounder" and I say "founder". Let's call the whole thing off. Is there a whale of a difference?

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Michael
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 01:58 PM

No but there Is a thyme and plaice.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Jul 11 - 02:33 PM

Yes, a right whale of a difference between flounder (move erratically) and founder (sink to the bottom). Flounder also a type of fish.

Other meanings of founder- the person(s) responsible for starting some enterprise; one that founds metal (a 'typesetter'); to disable an animal (usually by over-feeding.

Any more? I haven't looked in the OED.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Barb'ry
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 05:07 AM

'At this moment in time' annoys me - why not just say 'now' or even 'at this moment'?

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 06:17 AM

As well as 'at this moment in time' I get annoyed by 'time period' - usually either 'time' or 'period' would be much better and clearer. Why clutter language up with pointless extra noise?

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Michael
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 07:23 AM

Topsie's post reminds me of another; the use of the word 'period' at the end of a statement meaning 'I'm not accepting argument'as in: "You can't come with me, period."

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 08:03 AM

"You can't come with me, period."
Which has a completely different meaning if said by a girl you've tried to pick-up at a disco!

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: saulgoldie
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 02:17 PM

This reminds me of a bit I recently saw, but I can't remember where. It was a piece that "made sense." But it was spell-checked, but not grammar-checked. So the words were correctly spelled, and if you transposed the words with homonyms, it made sense. But by the *actual meanings* of the words, the piece made no sense. Anyone seen something like this?

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 04:01 PM

Saul, that reminds me of a book of nursery rhymes I once saw, but sadly I haven't a copy. They are written in what looks like French but the result sounds like English with a French accent. All I can remember is the start of
"Un petit d'un petit ..."

[=Humpty Dumpty]

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 04:25 PM

I did a bit of Googling and I found it - it's called "Mots d'Heures: Gousses Rames".

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 04:39 PM

Let's give credit where it's due: to the eccentric genius of the creator of "Mot d'Heures: Gousses Rames," U.S. architect and actor Luis van Rooten (1906-1973).

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 08:02 PM

Saul, that reminds me of a book of nursery rhymes I once saw, but sadly I haven't a copy. They are written in what looks like French but the result sounds like English with a French accent. All I can remember is the start of
"Un petit d'un petit ..."

[=Humpty Dumpty]

From: GUEST, topsie - PM
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 04:25 PM

I did a bit of Googling and I found it - it's called "Mots d'Heures: Gousses Rames".

The title, of course, is an English/French homonym of Mother Goose's Rhymes

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 11 - 08:08 PM

Talking of sloppy use of language,
In that last comment, for homonym, read homophone!

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 05:03 AM

Nigel, having explained how it worked (as in Humpty Dumpty) in the earlier post, I deliberately left the later post untranslated so that people could have the pleasure of working it out for themselves - you obviously enjoyed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 08:34 AM

I was brought up to believe that ships and boats were referred to as 'she' and later computers were referred to as 'he' because they are so troublesome. Just joking of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: saulgoldie
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 09:24 AM

I think this is the thing I was talking about when I mentioned spell-checker:

I have a spelling chequer,
It came with my pea sea,
It plainly marks four my revue,
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key an type a word,
And weight four it two say,
Weather eye am wrong oar write,
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid,
It nose bee fore to long,
And eye can put the error rite,
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it,
I am shore your pleased two no,
Its letter perfect awl the weigh,
My chequer tolled me sew.


For the record, my spell-checker and grammar-checker both live behind my eyes, below my hat.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: EBarnacle
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 11:35 AM

Nicely done, Saul.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 11:57 AM

Careen has two distinct and separate meanings, the lesser known of which is to place a vessel in shallows so that the outgoing tides will leave it propped up (if done right) on the bottom, for maintenance or repair. Sometimes the vessel is just allowed to lie on one or the other side. This is in stark contrast to the more commonly known meaning of tearing ahead wallowing, as in "The out of control minibus careened through the crowded market...".


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 12:20 PM

Amos ~ careen~ Yes, but the latter usage is solely US ~~ our equivalent is career.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 04:29 PM

That was me ~~ new computer, my cookie needed resetting. Normal bizniz resumed...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 04:50 PM

If guest looks in his complete OED, he will find that US careen = Eng. career ain't quite correct- That equivalency also started with an English writer (as posted before, I think in this thread).

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 05:44 PM

Another sloppiness that has been annoying me lately is the people wh MEAN to say 'as many people as possible' 'as much money as possible', etc. etc. but who don't bother to say the 'as possible' part.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 06:24 PM

do ships copulate, of course they dont, so lets stop this; she for ships: and he for trucks, otherwise we will be getting ships and trucks mating and pricks getting muddled up with shuts, or prucks getting mixed up with shits, a pruck is term used in ulster to describe items that look nice but are useless.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,EBarnacle
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 08:03 PM

Ships and other waterborne vessels are she 'cause it costs so much to keep 'em in powder and paint. That's what I was told by an old sailor I knew many years ago and it makes as much sense as any other explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 09:22 PM

And scrapin' the barnacles.

(I couldn't resist-)

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: EBarnacle
Date: 21 Jul 11 - 11:38 PM

That shot was below the waterline.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 04:41 AM

I thought boats were 'She' because they like to tie up to a buoy!


Please note, this comment doesn't work with the US pronunciation of 'booee'!

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 10:29 AM

It does with mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 11:45 AM

Is this because some Americans pronounce bouy as if it were the Gaelic for yellow?

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 12:48 PM

Careening the Issuma at the mouth of the Saint Lawrence.

From an online dictionary:

ca·reen (k-rn)
v. ca·reened, ca·reen·ing, ca·reens
v.intr.
1. To lurch or swerve while in motion.
2. To rush headlong or carelessly; career: "He careened through foreign territories on a desperate kind of blitz" (Anne Tyler).
3. Nautical
a. To lean to one side, as a ship sailing in the wind.
b. To turn a ship on its side for cleaning, caulking, or repairing.
v.tr. Nautical
1. To cause (a ship) to lean to one side; tilt.
2.
a. To lean (a ship) on one side for cleaning, caulking, or repairing.
b. To clean, caulk, or repair (a ship in this position).
n. Nautical
1. The act or process of careening a ship.
2. The position of a careened ship.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[From French (en) carène, (on) the keel, from Old French carene, from Old Italian carena, from Latin carna; see kar- in Indo-European roots.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ca·reener n.
Usage Note: The implication of rapidity that most often accompanies the use of careen as a verb of motion may have arisen naturally through the extension of the nautical sense of the verb to apply to the motion of automobiles, which generally careen, that is, lurch or tip over, only when driven at high speed. There is thus no reason to conclude that this use of the verb is the result of a confusion of careen with career, "to rush." Whatever the origin of this use, however, it is by now so well established that it would be pedantic to object to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 12:55 PM

Ships are called "she" because they are strangely attracted to storms, and often hang out with the gulls.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM

Ships belay! Steer away, Amos approaching, level 5.

Amos, the variations in the meaning of careen in that online dictionary pretty much are those in the Oxford English Dictionary.

Words can't be put in a straight-jacket.

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST, topsie
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 05:45 PM

... or even in a straitjacket

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 06:15 PM

My face is red,green and polka-dot, topsie. I lost my cookie on that one. Q

Subject: RE: BS: Sloppy use of language
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jul 11 - 08:54 PM

As I said in the other thread:
Drop apostrophes?
The religious cant!

Another use of 'can't' or 'cant'

cant ar hanner



For the non-Welsh, that's a count on the postings at 150, or 100 (cant) + 1/2 a hundred (hanner)

Hwyl fawr