BS: London Riots

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:55 PM

2 more things

1. I was pretty much wrong about the "99%" thing

Reading Don's post, another possible explanation occurs to me ...

Many reports refer to gang members wearing their colours openly and calling a truce with each other so they can roam together ...

... Mark Duggan was allegedly a gangster, who certainly had psychotic tendecies ...

perhaps its down to organized crime and revenge ...


One thing which seems to be apparent now is that The police acknowledge that Duggan never shot at them, they merely feared he might.

We will find out what really happened in the fullness of time - but it does look like the details of the shooting incident could be an important part of understanding why this has taken off so fast.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:53 PM

Sony central store in Enfield now burning.

"its a small number of people, ll of whom are doing damage" Lox what planet are you on tonight.

There are currently 500 plus wrecking houses in Clapham. The police are asking residents to get out of their homes. Police tried protecting Tesco's store lost the fight an hour ago, the store is now over run, not burning yet, but sadly it looks as if it will.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:49 PM

oops

Theresa may video

Here ...

.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:48 PM

""One of the gentlemen interviewed on telly about the Tottenham violence asserted that a significant portion of the violence was done by people who were not in fact from the Tottenham area.

My question is, what drew them in to the area? Was this a coordinated, instigated mob event?""

It's really very simple Amos.

The family of a gangster who fired a gun at police officers trying to arrest him was shot, a common occurrence in the US but not in the UK.

The Police Complaints Authority were slow to engage with the family and explain the circumstances.

This led to a peaceful demonstration, which was hijacked by thugs whose only purpose was to destroy property and loot shops.

HD television sets cost a fortune over here, so if you want one for free it's a good idea to start a riot, loot the shops, then burn them out so they they can't tell what was nicked.

I predicted, on the night of the Tottenham riot, that this would spread, and it looks as though I got it right because, to date, we've had looting in Enfield , Hackney, and Croydon, and I'm wondering where it will stop. Maybe Cornwall, or the Scottish border?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:48 PM

Two quick video's ...

The first is Theresa May back in september 2010, rubbishing any idea that cutting the police during a period of austerity could lead to rioting ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/15/theresa-may-cut-police-budget-without-violent-unrest

The second is Nick Clegg warning in April 2010 that deep austerity cuts by a party with a narrow mandate could create a serious risk of rioting (and being treated like he is somehow mad for sugesting it) ...

Here ...


Who got it right?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:46 PM

Clapham fell an hour ago, that will join up all the dots. It's time to get the army in. Are there many troops left in the UK ?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:42 PM

99% of the violence has been directed at three targets - The police, Journalists and chain stores.

What I'm seeing in the BBC coverage is that quite a few of the shops affected have Urdu or Turkish names. Maybe part of this is like the LA riots, with both black and white rioters taking their resentments out on Asians?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:04 PM

Lox I saw the car in your first link.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:03 PM

I saw a BMW police car with windows smashed. It there not a cheaper, UK alternative?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:58 PM

Jack - nope - its a small number of people, ll of whom are doing damage.

Here's a video of an old woman in the thick of it giving some of the rioters a piece of her mind.


Don't mess with this lady!!


.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:53 PM

For up to the minute info check out this self updating link

Riots


Peter C - I know - but I did say that Ii think there is a mix of protagonists - some from gangs and some just expressing political rage.


I just want to see a solution that works.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:49 PM

Is it like the Canadian hockey riots?

A lot of people showing up. Then a few aholes doing the damage?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:48 PM


It may be possible to deduce a method in the madness..
Like the charity shop looted in Enfield?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:44 PM

Some observations ...

I am trying to understand exactly how mindless these riots are.

At first I just thought - well, the Arab Spring and demos in greece have very clearly been about conflict between people and the government. These riots are not so clearly like that, as they appear to be people destroying their own locality's.

In addition, the political movements in the Middle East have been undeniably popular and representative of the people.

These Riots seem to represent a small minority ...


But then I thought - can I see a pattern?

99% of the violence has been directed at three targets - The police, Journalists and chain stores.

It may be possible to deduce a method in the madness..

Here in this part of south east London - Small businesses and private individuals have been pretty much left alone. The Curry's and Sainsbury's at the end of my street have been ransacked, but the small shops, Indian and chinese take-aways and restaurants and kebab shops have remained open throughout - I've just finished a chicken Bhuna that I went and collected without any hassle - and though there were clashes with the police, local residents, including myself, black white etc, have been ignored.

Some of these guys are gangsters according to some reports, whilst others may be trying to make a genuine point.

They clearly aren't educated or informed, and rioting is clearly counter-productive in so many ways - and their actions are undemocratic as the will of a tiny minority imposes misery on the majority.

But their targets do seem to reflect the three things that make many of us angry - the state (police), The media (journos) and big business and banks.

Nobody can tell me anything about the consequences and dangers of the riots - I live in the middle of it - but because I live here, I don't want it to get worse or to happen again. I therefore want someone to pay attention and try and learn something about it rather than to simply take a judgemental stance, use force to quell it, and have it come back another day.

Those lessons were learned in the 80's and Britains police is probably the best in the world at handling these kinds of events.

Lets hope they aren't forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:42 PM

Those were very pertinent thoughts from Richard Bridge (08 Aug 11 - 12:10 PM).

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:34 PM

Clockwork Orange was about a future England, but the teenage hoodlems and rioters are now.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Dead Horse
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:32 PM

Yep. Send in the army.
Its what they're trained for. Soon be over then, eh?
Protesters soon sorted. They've done that before, too.
In 1969.
...and 1970, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, & 2007.
Thank heavens for NORAID and a wee bit of help from that nice Mr Gadaffi or it would have all ended much sooner and the army would have had nothing to do. All peaceful now though. All friends again.

(Where is the 'Irony button' in this place?)

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:21 PM

People who feel contented with their lives don't riot. Bound to happen sooner or later in times like these. The pity is that the people hurt most by this will be ordinary poor people.

It really is a shame London "won" the Olympics. The desperate attempts to make it safe will be frightening - and they probably won't succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:32 PM

Army and tear gas.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:25 PM

The twitterati are apparently saying that Bluewater is for it. It is a symbol of consumption, a very temple of mammon.

I am quite surprised that there seems to be such a vigorous store of frustration - thinking of comparisons to the Poll Tax riots.

And yes, I do think that many of those in the riots are, perhaps more forcefully than eloquently, calling for reform. I think they see themselves as trapped and exploited, denied the fruits available to others.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 04:56 PM

"OK, so there are riots in London. What did we expect when there is a generation of children being brought up without discipline, thanks to the human rights, bleeding hearts and some moronic 'others'. Didn't anyone out there read "Lord of the flies" ..."
Not my words, but they do have a prophetic ring to them. Where's Piggy when you need him?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 04:56 PM

My son just rang me, he says a furniture store in Croydon has just been petrol bombed.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 04:53 PM

"protesters in the Middle East who are demanding reforms - but when our own people take to the streets, they're nothing but thugs and criminals"

Are you saying that the youn chaps on the streets of London are there looking reform or a change of government ?

You may well be right, such people are bound to miss a Labour government.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 04:37 PM

These are nothing but thugs and criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 04:31 PM

Richard Bridge makes a good point: We are sympathetic with protesters in the Middle East who are demanding reforms - but when our own people take to the streets, they're nothing but thugs and criminals.

Does that strike anyone else as just a bit hypocritical?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 03:51 PM

I shudder to imagine what your proposed solution to this problem might be. But I suspect the cure would be worse than the crime.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 03:39 PM

Still think these young men are misunderstood, where the hell are the Social Workers ?

One young man who was arrested for smashing a shop window and stealing a very nice 42 inch flat screen tv, admitted his dad never brought him to see a football match when he was younger and he didn't taste steak until he was 15.

Come on folks, be a little more understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 03:37 PM

No entry found

The dictionary does not contain any entries for 'TOTTEN-HAM' . Please

    * check the spelling
    * check the search direction (in the filter settings next to the search field)
    * or if necessary make use of the advanced search options (use '*' as a wildcard before and/or after the word, e.g. *TOTTEN-HAM)

If you cannot find a word in the dictionary you can post a query in the discussion forum.


thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 03:11 PM

With a name like TOTTEN-HAM?

Consult a German dictionary.

How could you expect less?   Bad synergy.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:54 PM

Maybe "London Calling" is the right theme for the 2012 Olympics.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Den
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:54 PM

Where were the water cannons, rubber/plastic bullets and snatch squads? Oh wait, what am I saying. carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:46 PM

Its that bastard Clive Sinclair's fault - if he'd not sold them all calculators - they'd be at home doing sums.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:29 PM

The gap isn't just that between the rich and the poor. It's also between the well educated and the ill educated. Kids are coming out of school, unable to read or write to an acceptable standard, and most of them are lost without a calculator to sort out even the simplest sums.
There should be a minimum standard which kids MUST attain, before they leave school. I remember kids whom I went to school with, being made to repeat a year, because they hadn't reached the standard required to go up into the next class/year. I suppose in these days when kids leave school with a certificate, whatever their exam marks, they wouldn't dream of doing such a thing.
Judging by some of the written applications for jobs I have received, I would suggest that a large proportion of the unemployed in this situation, are unemployable.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:40 PM

Perhaps there could have been a better response to the original
'Peaceful' prtotest , as the 'Good Family Man' who was shot was a known gangster .
But Rentamob does tend to leap in VERY quickly if they think they can get away with a bit of mayhem

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:10 PM

The Duggan connection is as yet opaque although very likely catalytic.   

The police are in a thankless position - at present they are I think being criticised for delay but it would have been easy for them to over-react and either way they get it.   I am not sure that I see this as being like their inflammatory and dishonest behaviour on other occasions - but there is a lot we don't know.

There is a lot of talk about the flash mob analogue - facebook twitter and text messaging apparently easing the spreading of information, but I have not yet heard anyone serious say that there was an organised co-ordination of assembly.

Most people are sympathetic to Syrian demonstrators, to the "Egyptian Spring" and to the revolution in Libya - but where is the dividing line? It is surely true that the overall trend in the UK and the USA for 30 years has been for the rich to get richer and the poor poorer. The assets of the Russian state finished up largely in the hands of criminals who had at best been black market traders.   The answer cannot be "God save the squire and his relations and keep us all in our proper stations", so at some point a stacked deck of cards needs to be changed for a new one, whether the organisers of the crooked game like it or not.   

This may or may not be the time for that, but we don't really yet know with much clarity what was in people's minds.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:05 PM

Let's hope common sense prevails Pete, and your lad doesn't have to face these kinds of arseholes again.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:54 AM

I totally agree, John, and it's a pity that a peaceful protest was hijacked by those intent on creating mayhem. I can't comment on the Duggan shooting because I don't know enough about it. My worry, as I said, is that this will spread across the country as we've seen on previous hot summer night in Bradford, Leeds etc., especially as my eldest lad will probably be one of the police called in to control it.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:39 AM

"What is certain is that the real losers are those people who have to live in the devastated communities and try to pick up the pieces of their lives, and the police officers and innocent bystanders who end up in hospital."

Complete agreement with that Pete but, whatever people's grievances, there can be no excuse whatsoever for the kind of mob-violence, arson and looting that went on in Tottenham, or at any other demonstration. None.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:38 AM

Next year will be awkward to say the least, with the arrival of all the visitors to the Olympics, if there are riots still happening. I bet the London authorities/organisers are very worried.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:27 AM

"I've no doubt that this will bring out the usual crop of polarised opinions, most of which will bear little relation to the reality of the situation."

And there was Bluesman....right on cue :0

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:18 AM

Come on, what is happening to this site. No one Blaming the police yet ?

Or what about defending these poor young men who burned cars, buildings and wrecked all around them (like the peaceful protesters in London earlier this year) ?

I know, it's our fault, yes we must understand that many came from broken homes, their mothers took in washing (and milkmen too). Their fathers drank and kicked the SH 1 T out of them.

Anyone know the number of the appeal set up to give them a few pounds as their dole money isn't worth a fcuk. Drugs, alcohol and craft knives have all went up in price thanks to the Con/Libs.

Maybe we could offer them counselling or how to fit a French Letter ?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:18 AM

Re Daily Mail, they are taking a hard line against the Met. Police.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:03 AM

I've no doubt that this will bring out the usual crop of polarised opinions, most of which will bear little relation to the reality of the situation.

I suspect that it will be next to impossible to sort out exactly why these riots took hold (as it has been with similar occurrences that have taken place in the past in my own area of Yorkshire). It was probably a combination of people who feel that they have a real grievance about the policing in the area, brought to a head by the shooting of Mark Duggan, others who are feeling more generally aggrieved about their social and economic situation, and those who just want the excitement of creating mayhem and being able to do a bit of looting on the back of it.

I have an awful feeling that we haven't seen the last of this kind of situation, especially as there is an ever-increasing number of people who have an ever-growing sense of alienation brought about by the ever-widening gap between rich and poor which has been happening for the last 30 years, aided and abetted by successive governments, plus the demonising as scroungers and wasters of anyone who, for whatever reason, is obliged to seek state benefits. The result of this has been to create an underclass which believes, not least because they have are constantly told so by the right-wing rags like the Daily Mail, that they are not part of society. Why, then, should they behave in a civilised manner?

What is certain is that the real losers are those people who have to live in the devastated communities and try to pick up the pieces of their lives, and the police officers and innocent bystanders who end up in hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:41 AM

THere's a world of opprtunities for cliches in a situation like this.

Apparently no-one is tracking down instigation as a vector. For better or for worse.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:22 AM

Just waiting for the usual "It's all the police's fault" PC-brigade to make their appearance.

Then we'll know the lunatics really have taken over the asylum.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 09:54 AM

Some thoughts

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 09:39 AM

One of the gentlemen interviewed on telly about the Tottenham violence asserted that a significant portion of the violence was done by people who were not in fact from the Tottenham area.

My question is, what drew them in to the area? Was this a coordinated, instigated mob event?


A

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 09:19 AM

If looting arson and violence are the answer, WTF is the question?
Such behaviour cannot EVER be justified.
Why is it we manufacture and sell water cannon to other countries, yet do not deploy them here as a means of crowd control?
It's what I would have used on those rioters and looters the other night.

Subject: BS: London Riots
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 08:43 AM

This morning's news carried an interesting piece. A reporter interviewed one of the rioters who asked where were the press when they held a peaceful protest a couple of weeks back. Now you see why we are rioting, he stated.
Jobs, poverty, hopelessness. And with the latest market downturns, it will only get worse.