BS: London Riots

Subject: BS: London Riots
From: SINSULL
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 08:43 AM

This morning's news carried an interesting piece. A reporter interviewed one of the rioters who asked where were the press when they held a peaceful protest a couple of weeks back. Now you see why we are rioting, he stated.
Jobs, poverty, hopelessness. And with the latest market downturns, it will only get worse.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 09:19 AM

If looting arson and violence are the answer, WTF is the question?
Such behaviour cannot EVER be justified.
Why is it we manufacture and sell water cannon to other countries, yet do not deploy them here as a means of crowd control?
It's what I would have used on those rioters and looters the other night.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 09:39 AM

One of the gentlemen interviewed on telly about the Tottenham violence asserted that a significant portion of the violence was done by people who were not in fact from the Tottenham area.

My question is, what drew them in to the area? Was this a coordinated, instigated mob event?


A

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 09:54 AM

Some thoughts

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:22 AM

Just waiting for the usual "It's all the police's fault" PC-brigade to make their appearance.

Then we'll know the lunatics really have taken over the asylum.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Amos
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:41 AM

THere's a world of opprtunities for cliches in a situation like this.

Apparently no-one is tracking down instigation as a vector. For better or for worse.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:03 AM

I've no doubt that this will bring out the usual crop of polarised opinions, most of which will bear little relation to the reality of the situation.

I suspect that it will be next to impossible to sort out exactly why these riots took hold (as it has been with similar occurrences that have taken place in the past in my own area of Yorkshire). It was probably a combination of people who feel that they have a real grievance about the policing in the area, brought to a head by the shooting of Mark Duggan, others who are feeling more generally aggrieved about their social and economic situation, and those who just want the excitement of creating mayhem and being able to do a bit of looting on the back of it.

I have an awful feeling that we haven't seen the last of this kind of situation, especially as there is an ever-increasing number of people who have an ever-growing sense of alienation brought about by the ever-widening gap between rich and poor which has been happening for the last 30 years, aided and abetted by successive governments, plus the demonising as scroungers and wasters of anyone who, for whatever reason, is obliged to seek state benefits. The result of this has been to create an underclass which believes, not least because they have are constantly told so by the right-wing rags like the Daily Mail, that they are not part of society. Why, then, should they behave in a civilised manner?

What is certain is that the real losers are those people who have to live in the devastated communities and try to pick up the pieces of their lives, and the police officers and innocent bystanders who end up in hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:18 AM

Re Daily Mail, they are taking a hard line against the Met. Police.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:18 AM

Come on, what is happening to this site. No one Blaming the police yet ?

Or what about defending these poor young men who burned cars, buildings and wrecked all around them (like the peaceful protesters in London earlier this year) ?

I know, it's our fault, yes we must understand that many came from broken homes, their mothers took in washing (and milkmen too). Their fathers drank and kicked the SH 1 T out of them.

Anyone know the number of the appeal set up to give them a few pounds as their dole money isn't worth a fcuk. Drugs, alcohol and craft knives have all went up in price thanks to the Con/Libs.

Maybe we could offer them counselling or how to fit a French Letter ?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:27 AM

"I've no doubt that this will bring out the usual crop of polarised opinions, most of which will bear little relation to the reality of the situation."

And there was Bluesman....right on cue :0

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:38 AM

Next year will be awkward to say the least, with the arrival of all the visitors to the Olympics, if there are riots still happening. I bet the London authorities/organisers are very worried.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:39 AM

"What is certain is that the real losers are those people who have to live in the devastated communities and try to pick up the pieces of their lives, and the police officers and innocent bystanders who end up in hospital."

Complete agreement with that Pete but, whatever people's grievances, there can be no excuse whatsoever for the kind of mob-violence, arson and looting that went on in Tottenham, or at any other demonstration. None.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:54 AM

I totally agree, John, and it's a pity that a peaceful protest was hijacked by those intent on creating mayhem. I can't comment on the Duggan shooting because I don't know enough about it. My worry, as I said, is that this will spread across the country as we've seen on previous hot summer night in Bradford, Leeds etc., especially as my eldest lad will probably be one of the police called in to control it.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:05 PM

Let's hope common sense prevails Pete, and your lad doesn't have to face these kinds of arseholes again.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:10 PM

The Duggan connection is as yet opaque although very likely catalytic.   

The police are in a thankless position - at present they are I think being criticised for delay but it would have been easy for them to over-react and either way they get it.   I am not sure that I see this as being like their inflammatory and dishonest behaviour on other occasions - but there is a lot we don't know.

There is a lot of talk about the flash mob analogue - facebook twitter and text messaging apparently easing the spreading of information, but I have not yet heard anyone serious say that there was an organised co-ordination of assembly.

Most people are sympathetic to Syrian demonstrators, to the "Egyptian Spring" and to the revolution in Libya - but where is the dividing line? It is surely true that the overall trend in the UK and the USA for 30 years has been for the rich to get richer and the poor poorer. The assets of the Russian state finished up largely in the hands of criminals who had at best been black market traders.   The answer cannot be "God save the squire and his relations and keep us all in our proper stations", so at some point a stacked deck of cards needs to be changed for a new one, whether the organisers of the crooked game like it or not.   

This may or may not be the time for that, but we don't really yet know with much clarity what was in people's minds.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 12:40 PM

Perhaps there could have been a better response to the original
'Peaceful' prtotest , as the 'Good Family Man' who was shot was a known gangster .
But Rentamob does tend to leap in VERY quickly if they think they can get away with a bit of mayhem

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:29 PM

The gap isn't just that between the rich and the poor. It's also between the well educated and the ill educated. Kids are coming out of school, unable to read or write to an acceptable standard, and most of them are lost without a calculator to sort out even the simplest sums.
There should be a minimum standard which kids MUST attain, before they leave school. I remember kids whom I went to school with, being made to repeat a year, because they hadn't reached the standard required to go up into the next class/year. I suppose in these days when kids leave school with a certificate, whatever their exam marks, they wouldn't dream of doing such a thing.
Judging by some of the written applications for jobs I have received, I would suggest that a large proportion of the unemployed in this situation, are unemployable.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:46 PM

Its that bastard Clive Sinclair's fault - if he'd not sold them all calculators - they'd be at home doing sums.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Den
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:54 PM

Where were the water cannons, rubber/plastic bullets and snatch squads? Oh wait, what am I saying. carry on.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 01:54 PM

Maybe "London Calling" is the right theme for the 2012 Olympics.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 03:11 PM

With a name like TOTTEN-HAM?

Consult a German dictionary.

How could you expect less?   Bad synergy.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 03:37 PM

No entry found

The dictionary does not contain any entries for 'TOTTEN-HAM' . Please

    * check the spelling
    * check the search direction (in the filter settings next to the search field)
    * or if necessary make use of the advanced search options (use '*' as a wildcard before and/or after the word, e.g. *TOTTEN-HAM)

If you cannot find a word in the dictionary you can post a query in the discussion forum.


thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 03:39 PM

Still think these young men are misunderstood, where the hell are the Social Workers ?

One young man who was arrested for smashing a shop window and stealing a very nice 42 inch flat screen tv, admitted his dad never brought him to see a football match when he was younger and he didn't taste steak until he was 15.

Come on folks, be a little more understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 03:51 PM

I shudder to imagine what your proposed solution to this problem might be. But I suspect the cure would be worse than the crime.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 04:31 PM

Richard Bridge makes a good point: We are sympathetic with protesters in the Middle East who are demanding reforms - but when our own people take to the streets, they're nothing but thugs and criminals.

Does that strike anyone else as just a bit hypocritical?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 04:37 PM

These are nothing but thugs and criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 04:53 PM

"protesters in the Middle East who are demanding reforms - but when our own people take to the streets, they're nothing but thugs and criminals"

Are you saying that the youn chaps on the streets of London are there looking reform or a change of government ?

You may well be right, such people are bound to miss a Labour government.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 04:56 PM

My son just rang me, he says a furniture store in Croydon has just been petrol bombed.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 04:56 PM

"OK, so there are riots in London. What did we expect when there is a generation of children being brought up without discipline, thanks to the human rights, bleeding hearts and some moronic 'others'. Didn't anyone out there read "Lord of the flies" ..."
Not my words, but they do have a prophetic ring to them. Where's Piggy when you need him?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:25 PM

The twitterati are apparently saying that Bluewater is for it. It is a symbol of consumption, a very temple of mammon.

I am quite surprised that there seems to be such a vigorous store of frustration - thinking of comparisons to the Poll Tax riots.

And yes, I do think that many of those in the riots are, perhaps more forcefully than eloquently, calling for reform. I think they see themselves as trapped and exploited, denied the fruits available to others.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 05:32 PM

Army and tear gas.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:21 PM

People who feel contented with their lives don't riot. Bound to happen sooner or later in times like these. The pity is that the people hurt most by this will be ordinary poor people.

It really is a shame London "won" the Olympics. The desperate attempts to make it safe will be frightening - and they probably won't succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Dead Horse
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:32 PM

Yep. Send in the army.
Its what they're trained for. Soon be over then, eh?
Protesters soon sorted. They've done that before, too.
In 1969.
...and 1970, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, & 2007.
Thank heavens for NORAID and a wee bit of help from that nice Mr Gadaffi or it would have all ended much sooner and the army would have had nothing to do. All peaceful now though. All friends again.

(Where is the 'Irony button' in this place?)

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:34 PM

Clockwork Orange was about a future England, but the teenage hoodlems and rioters are now.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:42 PM

Those were very pertinent thoughts from Richard Bridge (08 Aug 11 - 12:10 PM).

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:44 PM

Some observations ...

I am trying to understand exactly how mindless these riots are.

At first I just thought - well, the Arab Spring and demos in greece have very clearly been about conflict between people and the government. These riots are not so clearly like that, as they appear to be people destroying their own locality's.

In addition, the political movements in the Middle East have been undeniably popular and representative of the people.

These Riots seem to represent a small minority ...


But then I thought - can I see a pattern?

99% of the violence has been directed at three targets - The police, Journalists and chain stores.

It may be possible to deduce a method in the madness..

Here in this part of south east London - Small businesses and private individuals have been pretty much left alone. The Curry's and Sainsbury's at the end of my street have been ransacked, but the small shops, Indian and chinese take-aways and restaurants and kebab shops have remained open throughout - I've just finished a chicken Bhuna that I went and collected without any hassle - and though there were clashes with the police, local residents, including myself, black white etc, have been ignored.

Some of these guys are gangsters according to some reports, whilst others may be trying to make a genuine point.

They clearly aren't educated or informed, and rioting is clearly counter-productive in so many ways - and their actions are undemocratic as the will of a tiny minority imposes misery on the majority.

But their targets do seem to reflect the three things that make many of us angry - the state (police), The media (journos) and big business and banks.

Nobody can tell me anything about the consequences and dangers of the riots - I live in the middle of it - but because I live here, I don't want it to get worse or to happen again. I therefore want someone to pay attention and try and learn something about it rather than to simply take a judgemental stance, use force to quell it, and have it come back another day.

Those lessons were learned in the 80's and Britains police is probably the best in the world at handling these kinds of events.

Lets hope they aren't forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:48 PM


It may be possible to deduce a method in the madness..
Like the charity shop looted in Enfield?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:49 PM

Is it like the Canadian hockey riots?

A lot of people showing up. Then a few aholes doing the damage?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:53 PM

For up to the minute info check out this self updating link

Riots


Peter C - I know - but I did say that Ii think there is a mix of protagonists - some from gangs and some just expressing political rage.


I just want to see a solution that works.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 06:58 PM

Jack - nope - its a small number of people, ll of whom are doing damage.

Here's a video of an old woman in the thick of it giving some of the rioters a piece of her mind.


Don't mess with this lady!!


.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:03 PM

I saw a BMW police car with windows smashed. It there not a cheaper, UK alternative?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:04 PM

Lox I saw the car in your first link.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:42 PM

99% of the violence has been directed at three targets - The police, Journalists and chain stores.

What I'm seeing in the BBC coverage is that quite a few of the shops affected have Urdu or Turkish names. Maybe part of this is like the LA riots, with both black and white rioters taking their resentments out on Asians?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:46 PM

Clapham fell an hour ago, that will join up all the dots. It's time to get the army in. Are there many troops left in the UK ?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:48 PM

Two quick video's ...

The first is Theresa May back in september 2010, rubbishing any idea that cutting the police during a period of austerity could lead to rioting ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/15/theresa-may-cut-police-budget-without-violent-unrest

The second is Nick Clegg warning in April 2010 that deep austerity cuts by a party with a narrow mandate could create a serious risk of rioting (and being treated like he is somehow mad for sugesting it) ...

Here ...


Who got it right?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:48 PM

""One of the gentlemen interviewed on telly about the Tottenham violence asserted that a significant portion of the violence was done by people who were not in fact from the Tottenham area.

My question is, what drew them in to the area? Was this a coordinated, instigated mob event?""

It's really very simple Amos.

The family of a gangster who fired a gun at police officers trying to arrest him was shot, a common occurrence in the US but not in the UK.

The Police Complaints Authority were slow to engage with the family and explain the circumstances.

This led to a peaceful demonstration, which was hijacked by thugs whose only purpose was to destroy property and loot shops.

HD television sets cost a fortune over here, so if you want one for free it's a good idea to start a riot, loot the shops, then burn them out so they they can't tell what was nicked.

I predicted, on the night of the Tottenham riot, that this would spread, and it looks as though I got it right because, to date, we've had looting in Enfield , Hackney, and Croydon, and I'm wondering where it will stop. Maybe Cornwall, or the Scottish border?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:49 PM

oops

Theresa may video

Here ...

.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:53 PM

Sony central store in Enfield now burning.

"its a small number of people, ll of whom are doing damage" Lox what planet are you on tonight.

There are currently 500 plus wrecking houses in Clapham. The police are asking residents to get out of their homes. Police tried protecting Tesco's store lost the fight an hour ago, the store is now over run, not burning yet, but sadly it looks as if it will.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:55 PM

2 more things

1. I was pretty much wrong about the "99%" thing

Reading Don's post, another possible explanation occurs to me ...

Many reports refer to gang members wearing their colours openly and calling a truce with each other so they can roam together ...

... Mark Duggan was allegedly a gangster, who certainly had psychotic tendecies ...

perhaps its down to organized crime and revenge ...


One thing which seems to be apparent now is that The police acknowledge that Duggan never shot at them, they merely feared he might.

We will find out what really happened in the fullness of time - but it does look like the details of the shooting incident could be an important part of understanding why this has taken off so fast.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 07:57 PM

My brother just rang me, it has now broken out in Liverpool. He said three large fires burnings in the centre.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 08:02 PM

"There are currently 500 plus wrecking houses in Clapham."

Where does it say this?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 08:19 PM

"Lox what planet are you on tonight."

It would help if you learned how to read.

I'll help.


Q. "A lot of people showing up. Then a few aholes doing the damage?"

A. No, not a lot, but ALL doing damage.


Understand? .... I doubt it.


That's all you're getting from me.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 08:26 PM

Quote from a police officer who worked 24 hours yesterday and 16 today ...

"It can feel a bit thankless at the moment, to be honest," said one officer with ten years experience. "It seems that the blame is coming at the police from all sides. But all the officers here would much rather be at home with their families than having bricks chucked at them." ...

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 08:31 PM

Apparently in Manchester as well. I've never been more disappointed in my generation than right now. It beat the student thing as well.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: pdq
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 08:45 PM

Sort of makes you long for the days of the Hippies, don't it?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 08:47 PM

I can find no reports of clapham homes being targeted...

... All the shops in the area were looted (and i mean all) and there was fear that there could be a gas explosion which prompted fears that an evacuation could be necessary ...

It seems pretty clear now that whatever political motive there might have been has become completely overshadowed by this wave of random wanton destruction.

Any Pattern that there might have been has been eclipsed by looting of small businesses left right and centre and muggings.

Its calm here in this part of the south east now, but there is no knowing how this could progress now ...

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 09:03 PM

Not in Manchester (at least, not in any great detail).

Writing out words about this before bed.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 09:40 PM

Forget what I said about protest. This is something else. Amazing scenes.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Harry Brown
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 09:45 PM

Too late now - It's gone too far beyond mere understanding, analysing, and theorising the root socioeconomic causes
of mass hysteria delinquent behaviour..

Face up to the sick grim reality legacy of Thatcher's sink estate grandchildren..
Decent civilisation will unhappily be forced to consider Rubber bullets and steel toe capped military boots
applied surgically to rioters and looters knee caps.

Broken legs are far more effective than any Asbo or Electronic Tag.
in keeping uneducable cretinous thieving thugs off the streets
for 2 or 3 months or more...

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:01 PM

I wrote a quick piece on it.

Now bed. Hopefully I won't wake to the smell of ash.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Songwronger
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:05 PM

Someone, might have been Alfred Hitchcock, said civilization is a thin crust over an anthill.

And someone on another forum said: Gaddafi has just recognized the rioters as the legitimate government of the UK and wants Cameron to step down.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:36 PM

The spontaneous outbreak of the violence is said to be the result of the murder of a young man inside a taxi by the police.

Knowing the backstory of this incident or similar incidents seems important.

Violence degenerating into looting is a consequence of opportunistic criminals and not the central story.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Harry Brown
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 10:57 PM

No fine worded academic excuse or justification for any or this incoherent moronic street terrorism..

Deputy Prime Minister Clegg is an self deluded ineffectual tool
who needs to wake up tomorrow with a clearer vision
of his own responsibility for failing to prevent all this utterly predictable
brutish orgiastic apocalyptic mayhem..

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Songwronger
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:17 PM

Britain (like the U.S.) is being choked by politicians preaching "austerity." So police cutbacks are made, violence ensues, and then the country supports hiring more police.

Meanwhile, to pay for the police, your pensions will have to be cut and your taxes raised.

This looks suspiciously like a government-orchestrated fiasco.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Harry Brown
Date: 08 Aug 11 - 11:44 PM

Pull up the Drawbridge
retreat into the exclusive protective safety or your elite Gated Communities...


David Cameron


One step forward into the Hi Tech media enriched 21st Century
Two steps backwards into the brutish stab & burn feudalistic dark ages

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Harry Brown
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:54 AM

Adolescent dick heads pumped up on testosterone, adrenaline, and peer pressure bravado..

We all been there and fell foul to our base destructive urges at some point in our youth..

Teds

Rockers

Mods

Skins

Suedes

Punks

New Romantics [.. errrmmm.. well... maybe not....]

Gangstas

Ladettes

Hooray Henries

etc etc etc




Tonight is the no going back turning point in socio cultural historic pressure cooker blowing it's lid off end of civilisation

As predicted by the likes of me well over 30 years ago !!!!


not gloating.. just scared.. very deeply sincerely terrified
as to how far society will be willfully destroyed in the next few short years...????

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Harry Brown
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:10 AM

Innocent victims will surely be found dead ???

Burnt to death in their beds ???

These thuggish thieving juvenile fuckwits have no sense of concious or consequence of their out of control idiot actions..



These mobs are not motivated by social injustice

They are not politicised

They have no noble cause that justifies a means to an end

they are just dangerously parasitic human detriment that the world would be better off without..

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Harry Brown
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:18 AM

detriment.. detrius.. ??

sorrry too angry for words..

maybe I'm trying to be too clever
and dress up my feelings with big words ??? ..

Frankly they are just irredemable stinking shit human beings of no present or future value !!!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:58 AM

And they hide their faces under hoods - nancy boys, every last one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:17 AM

One sad aspect of all this is that no doubt the parents or grandparents of the rioters arrived in the UK with the eager anticipation of a better and more comfortable way of life, and unlimited opportunity for their children.

It's going to be a long haul back from the present situation, but until we can address the reasons why black boys are statistically the lowest attaining group in education, we are only papering over the cracks.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:17 AM

Strange how the lefties are remaining quiet on this thread. Yes we have the resident nut job LX talking SH 1 T as usual, but read some of the comments of support for similar actions by students in London a few months ago here.

www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=133440&messages=217

So how can these members in the attached thread openly express support for mob violence in London a few months ago, and now they are conspicuous by their absence.

Clearly they supported the mindless violence by students and union members in a "so-called" protest as you can read, but what about these poor underprivileged chappies from broken homes in "deprived" areas of London ?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:36 AM

What I can't understand is why everyone - especially Cameron's mob - is so surprised. It gives me no pleasure to say that I predicted something of this sort on this board months ago. If an incompetent government creates the conditions for anarchy, that's what will happen. We get the usual righties here who have never got of their smug, self-satisfied arses and actually seen what has been happening to our society. The sense of hopelessness on sink estates is palpable. History shows that riots don't have to have any logic behind them - just a general feeling of injustice that is sparked by an often totally unrelated incident.

I was talking to my son and he told me that the morale and motivation in the police force is at an all-time low and they have no stomach for going out there and risking their safety to clear up the mess created by incompetent and ignorant politicians - especially when their own contracts of employment have, effectively, been torn up and their pay and conditions devastated, In fact, it seems that there is talk of the police themselves taking industrial action. So what would happen then? Will we have the army (do we still have an army?)facing the police at demonstrations?

So, to all those righties who have been vilifying anyone less fortunate than themselves as scroungers and wasters (and worse), maybe those people are now thinking that they have nothing to lose.
So be afraid...be very afraid. I know I am.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:37 AM

Sorry lads, but I'm on the left and knew a couple of years ago we were in the shit......the facade had to crack and I'm just surprised it took so long.

We've been living in fairyland politically and socially

I think many of the young folks have just realised that they have no future.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:39 AM

Dickhead, even the Daily Telegraph recognises the contributing factors.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8630533/Riots-the-underclass-lashes-out.html


And the classic effect of rioters ruining their home areas is (or should be familiar) from the Watts riots.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:42 AM

haha....and, right on cue again, we have our new resident rightie, Bluesman, (welcome back Blackie Blackshirt) who doesn't even have the balls to be a Mudcat member, talking the usual mindless right wing shit. So what are you advocating tis time, Bluesman? Hanging? Flogging? National swervice? Come on, give us all another laugh.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:23 AM

I honestly believe we will see the army on the streets of London by the weekend. The police simply can't cope. It is all well and good interviewing community leaders and churchmen and listening to endless condemnations. Parents, youth leaders, members of the BPA all need to ask their children to account for their movements and introduce a curfew if necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:26 AM

"arrived in the UK with the eager anticipation of a better and more comfortable way of life,"
Has it been established that all the rioters are from ethnic minorities? - not on my television it hasn't.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:27 AM

Ja, selbstverstandlich, befehl ist befehl.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:37 AM

My last was aimed at Bluesman, not Jim.

Incidentally, who should we be following on twitter to see this as it develops - I saw of Chatham before it happened because some young friends of mine had it up on facebook, but that will not work to predict Maidstone or Bluewater... (although I now thing that Bluewater would be an unwise target because it's hard to "melt away" from there).

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:43 AM

"I honestly believe we will see the army on the streets of London by the weekend."

Judging by what happens in garrison towns on a Saturday night, they should feel quite at home. Plus, of course, the areas where the riots are happening have, traditionally, been a fertile recruiting grounds for squaddies.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:45 AM

Try #londonriots on Twitter.

This is all very similar to something London has seen before - the Gordon Riots of 1780. But you do have to go back that far to find a parallel.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:53 AM

These rioters should have their arms broken and set behind their backs.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:59 AM

Leveller, what is "National swervice" is it a film about a horse or a government owned racing car ?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:25 AM

No, it's the government doing one of its now-familiar U-turns.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:39 AM

I honestly believe we will see the army on the streets of London by the weekend."
Right on - seems to be working a treat for Lybia and Syria.
"My last was aimed at Bluesman, not Jim."
Thanks Richard - didn't think for a minute......!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:40 AM

Quite. Their more privileged contemporaries are in uniform doing exactly the same thing to Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya so the poor things feel left out.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:42 AM

Looks like the inner-city unrest has spread to the Folk Community. Indeed some of the comments here are far more worrying than the stuff we're seeing hyped up on TV right now, which as Folkloric Misrule goes is as Traditionally English as fish & chips, garden gnomes and cheese rolling. Calls for broken arms, however, is one histrionic middle-English reaction too far, though just as traditional I suppose in terms of pure chiz.

And who the hell is Harry Brown? This is one thread where some judicious pruning from our poor Over-Worked Mudcat Riot Mods wouldn't go amiss if only to help keep things in perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:42 AM

...a gangster who fired a gun at police officers trying to arrest him was shot...

That version of what happened is open to question. It has been reported that the only firing was by the police, and there are eye witnesses who say they say Duggan was pulled out of the car and shot while on the ground.

Rushed reports on incidents like this,including statements by the police, have to be viewed with extreme caution - as in the case of Jean-Paul de Menenzes. And that can have disastrous consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:54 AM

The available evidence concerning Duggan seems to be that:

1. He was in possession of a working gun.

2. The police fired two shots, one of which got lodged in a police radio and the other of which killed Duggan

3. The Police have made no claim that Duggan fired at them first.

4. The Marksman who shot Duggan feared that his life was in Danger.


Thats the information that the police have provided.

Also, the IPCC are investigating Duggans gun to see if any bullets were fired in the incident.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Lox
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:57 AM

As for police Tactics, its pretty clear that they won't be repeating the mistakes of the 80's.

And its pretty clear that they won't have to.

The amount of CCTV and private video footage of looters means that they can easily be rounded up by day as they get their beauty sleep.


Harry Brown? What a clown!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 06:01 AM

Some "marksman" who managed to shoot a police radio!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: mayomick
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 06:20 AM

This Tottenham man -sorry geezer- seems to be speaking very reasonably about the lead up to last weekend's riots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJQHWwEpwAY&NR=1

I can't understand why someone who can speak as well as this isn't a regular face on British TV . Perhaps that's part of the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 06:21 AM

The result of all this will be a boost to the economy, all the places that have been burned down will be rebuilt employing lots of people.
sorry if this sounds cynical but it is a fact, this is the way the capatalist system works, look at all the rebuilding after the war
My sympathies go to anyone or any of the relatives of anyone injured or killed.
who is to blame?
probably a number of people including the police ,the rioters, the government and a system that is based on dehumanising people.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 06:35 AM

Part of the problem in the leadup was that people did not (and apparently still do not) understand that once the IPCC is involved the police themselves cannot - are not allowed to - comment.

But the disaffection IMHO goes deeper and has gone on for longer than the interviewee said.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: mayomick
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 06:59 AM

Richard, Perhaps some comment to that effect from somebody who wasn't a policeman - maybe from the IPCC- on the steps of Tottenham police station Friday night would have made some difference .Instead the police seemed to have been intent on sending out a tough message to the peaceful group of protesters.

"Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?"
"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?
"Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Ringer
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:04 AM

"It is surely true that the overall trend in the UK and the USA for 30 years has been for the rich to get richer and the poor poorer." Richard Bridge 08 Aug 11 - 12:10 PM

Where is your evidence for that, Richard Bridge? Don't you mean, "...for the rich to get richer and the poor to get richer, too?"

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:12 AM

No. I mean that the gap between the rich and poor has massively increased in both absolute and relative terms.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:17 AM

Here we go. I knew it wouldn't be long before the clowns arrived and started blaming the police.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:30 AM

"Where is your evidence for that, Richard Bridge? Don't you mean, "...for the rich to get richer and the poor to get richer, too?" "

You might like to consider this evidence, Ringer:

•Nearly 4 million children are living in poverty in the UK (after housing costs)
•The proportion of children living in poverty grew from 1 in 10 in 1979 to 1 in 3 in 1998. Today, 30 per cent of children in Britain are living in poverty.
•The UK has one of the worst rates of child poverty in the industrialised world
•The majority (59 per cent) of poor children live in a household where at least one adult works.
•40 per cent of poor children live in a household headed by a lone parent. The majority of poor children (57 per cent) live in a household headed by a couple.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:58 AM

Bring on the Water Cannon!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:00 AM

The police are the visible symbol of state authority in inner city areas so are bound to get it in the neck when the marginalised kick off. I'm surprised it took so long for this to happen and that it hasn't been worse. Thirty years on from the riots under the last lot of Tories, we have kids who have grown up knowing nothing else but life on the outside looking in. Generations who haven't worked unless its crappy McJobs, sink estates ruled by drug, gun and gang culture (where the local gangster is the role model whose 'made it'), coupled with a broader culture where conspicuous consumption and bling is norm we're all supposed to aspire to - no wonder these riots have been consumer riots, where the chief focus, apart from having a ruck with the police, seems to be acquiring the sorts of things we are all told are essential to make us complete modern humans. This is an eruption of underclass resentment - don't expect coherent political discourse from the participants, or careful targeting of established left bete noires (the banks, big business etc). Expect instead rage and destruction and more consumer-driven looting: "When you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose".... Oh, and expect the Tories to do really well out of this and probably get re-elected on a law and owder/traditional values ticket which will give them the green light to carry on making cuts in services. Youth workers have been predicting riots ever since the Tories started stuffing up the services that kept a lid on the chaos...

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:06 AM

Well-put, Spleen. What must not be allowed to happen, however, is for these riots to be used as an excuse by this tawdry government to take away even more of the civil liberies of the rest of us - as, indeed, New Labour did in the name of the fictional 'war on terror'.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: I don't know
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:07 AM

The England match off tomorrow (football). Sony lost thousands of CDs & other music items at Enfield. What next, who knows but things usually get worse before they get better.
My daughter has just told me she wishes she still lived in Putney, loves the city & hopes to be back there before the olyimics!!
Someone will do well out of the situation but it will not be the "ordinary people". we will be made to pay for the damage for many years.
My thoughts go out to the people trying to live in these areas & the emergancy sevices who are risking there lives to try & salvage the situation, lets hope it soon stops.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:16 AM

Football match off - well some good did come after all.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:41 AM

Many are asking what will happen to those involved once the cctv camera is examined.

Simple, this is what will happen.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/criminals-taken-theme-park-trip-114959287.html

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:01 AM

The local community pub in my village was attacked last night.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14461225

This is it:

http://thedeantavern.com/

That's 400 miles from London.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: alanabit
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:10 AM

As a football fan and a musician Richard, I would say that the good news is that Sony has lost some money. However, I agree with just about everything else you have written on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:21 AM

""No. I mean that the gap between the rich and poor has massively increased in both absolute and relative terms.""

Indeed it has, and more under the Blair/Brown government than any other.

Perhaps we could hear your take on the fact that over twelve years they failed to do squat about that problem, and are now trying to blame it on their successors?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:25 AM

This and this are terrible, partly because I can't read the flaming thing.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:28 AM

No Don, most under Thatcher

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:29 AM

Though news of coastal looting is true.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:35 AM

"I knew it wouldn't be long before the clowns arrived and started blaming the police. "
Thought that that was what you wanted; you've been trying to prod it into life for long enough.
It took even less time for a brown-nose to leap to their defence without a scrap of evidence to back up any claim that they have behaved impeccably here.
This would be the same police who have recently lost a senior officer due to the phone-tapping affair, and are likely to lose a few more - and even have a few banged-up over the same business?
Get real.
The last Tottenham riots were sparked off by the death of Cynthia Jarret, which was largely caused by heavy-handed policing.
The last Brixton riots were caused by heavy-handed policing.
The appalling (probably deliberately so) investigation into the death of Stephen Lawrence was caused (according to an official enquiry) by "institutional racism within the Metropolitan police".
The present trouble in Tottenham was possibly sparked off and escalated by heavy-handed policing following the killing of a young man, quickly followed up by a possible heavy handed stop-and-search in Brixton.
We know that opportunist thugs have escalated a genuine protest into a rapidly-accelerating full-scale riot, but we don't know how well or badly the police have behaved yet.
Before we start accusing and acquitting, wouldn't it be best to get some facts first?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:37 AM

"Many are asking what will happen to those involved once the cctv camera is examined.

Simple, this is what will happen.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/criminals-taken-theme-park-trip-114959287.html"

Don't be stupid - they will serve suitable prison sentences which will be all the more unpleasant, because the decent criminals inside will make their lives hell.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:38 AM

On the subject of who to follow, I believe LondonRiots2011 is the answer you were looking for.

I'll leave this thread in peace for a bit now.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:53 AM

So, Jim, how can the police ever get it right when, on the one hand, people like you say they're too heavy handed, yet a large number of people who, unlike you and the other cop-haters on here, were actually there last night have spoken on TV and radio, saying that the police weren't tough enough.

You cop-haters can't have it all ways.

And isn't cop-hating a bit juvenile for someone your age? Words like 'grow' and 'up' spring to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Harry Brown
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:56 AM

Who is Harry Brown ?

Apologies for the staying up all night watching rolling news channels dismayed outburst.

I declare myself as a real saddened and angry voice of old fashioned self respecting educated left wing working class
council estate culture and pride.


[and an jesterly ironic reference to an iconic and somewhat relevant Michael Caine movie role]

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:20 AM

How does you folks spitting on each other help anyone or shed any light on the subject?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:20 AM

Spot on post from Mr. Cringe below!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:21 AM

Duggan was killed by a single shot to the chest.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:28 AM

Just to lighten things up a bit, a very well known folk fiddler has the solution on Facebook.

"Send in the Morris dancers. Bampton will clear it up!"

Somebody suggested that as hoodies hate folk MUSIC even more than folk DANCE, said fiddler should get involved.

He replied "I thought of that too. I have a letter to go in the post offering my services for a modest retainer. 50 percent of all goods dropped in panic as the sound of a slow air wafts thru the battle line".

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:29 AM

If anyone who criticises any aspect of how the police do their job is now a 'cop hater', in my experience that means there are a lot of cops out there who are filled with self loathing... The continuing right to criticise any arm of the state at least shows that democracy is still functioning.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:33 AM

I think support's what those guys need right now, Spleen.
Would you be prepared to do their job?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:36 AM

Would you be prepared to do their job knowing full well that whatever you do, you will be criticised by the cop-haters?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:38 AM

The important issue right now is to prevent further rioting, burning, looting and violence.

Examination of everyones' roles needs to be carried out, but it should wait until the fires are out and the gangs have gone.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:44 AM

I can fully understand why Cameron is disgusted with the way these rioters are trashing places. Now if they'd been members of the Bullingdon Club like him, they'd know how to do it PROPERLY.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:46 AM

Threatened riots disturbances are being proposed in Bristol strangely enough near poor old Tesco again in Stokes Croft. The original reason for this was because the residents did not want yet another Tesco in the area, previously it had been a comedy club. But yet again it was a target with windows broken. This is nothing to do with the Tottenham riot at all just an excuse to copycat. The main Cabot shopping area was threatened but I don't know yet if anything actually happened. My guess is that kids see this going on and think they can jump on the bandwagon and get away with it too.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:50 AM

"Yeah, lets go and trash the shopping centre. We can always blame the cops, plenty of them numb-nut Mudcatters will support us."

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: pdq
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:57 AM

It appears that "rioting and looting" behavior is a close relative to Marxism, just on an accelerated time schedule.

Redistribution of wealth. Sorta like "instant gratification Socialism".

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Musket
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:16 AM

Fascinating how many think the idiots are looking for political reform. And there was me thinking they wanted something, they don't exactly know what, but as long as it staves off the boredom today, it'll do.

We give free education, we give a safety net and the rest of us happily pay for it. Stop telling the feral buggers they may have a point. They don't, they have a criminal record at the end of it, and that just makes their future prospects even bleaker.

Despite the many issues over the years, I still say politicians of all colours don't deserve the overall commitment of the police to try and keep law and order and to preserve the peace. Yes, we have a problem, have had since time began and will still have it when we are all forgotten. But if society is to work, it has to be within rules, and there is not much point asking the little shits not to break your windows because you empathise with their plight.

Tottenham may have been the catalyst but after that, it is just monkey see, monkey do. Nothing more, nothing less and I for one hope it fizzles out fast.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Ringer
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:18 AM

"No. I mean that the gap between the rich and poor has massively increased in both absolute and relative terms."

Then maybe, Richard Bridge, you should have said that. I thought lawyers were supposed to practise precision of language. Do we agree that your new statement says nothing about the poor getting poorer?

"You might like to consider this evidence, Ringer:"

OK, theleveller, I've considered the "evidence" you present. The only point that has any relevance to the 30-year trend in the UK and the USA mentioned by Richard Bridge is the second, and that depends on an unspecified definition of "poverty" and deals only with (I presume) children in the UK. It's a long way from contradicting my suggested correction of Richard Bridge's statement.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:19 AM

Thank God it's not just me that thinks that way. I was starting to think I'm the only sane person in the asylum.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:19 AM

My last comment was a response to Ian Mather's post, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:24 AM

Ringer, if you don't understand relative poverty you are not well equipped to comment here.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:29 AM

Ringer, try reading Tony Judt's last book, Ill Fares the Land. Plenty of evidence in there, but I'm not about to go through it and pick it out for you. Do your own research.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:32 AM

Incidentally, I thought I said far above that the police were in a thankless position - but the bureaucratic buck-passing about who should have interacted with Duggan's family is rather off and not, I think, the police's fault but the IPCC or government's.

The scale of the problem may I suppose be a bit much for the police, too - but that also is the fault of government who have scaled down police expenditure.

It is not sensible for the comfortable middle class (moi?) to say that the rioters are not seeking reform or change: there is no coherent position enunciated but there is a bitterness at the ongoing enrichment of the rich yet the scapegoating and impoverishment of the relative poor that I would have thought undeniable.

Bigger guns is not the answer. I'll borrow from a US thread a couple of quotes: -


First "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable". John F. Kennedy


Second "We can never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal."

August 1963
Letter from Birmingham Jail
by Martin Luther King Jr.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,acegardener
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:37 AM

Reports from Hampton Court Palace suggest a small quartet of men in heraldic costume have just begun luting.......

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:37 AM

"But if society is to work"

But that's the root of the problem - it doesn't work! Cameron's Big Society is the same as Thatcher's No Society - look after yourself because it's not the role of the state to do so. A long way from the ideals of Keanes and those whose idealism and compassion put in place the Welfare State and the HNS. A bloody long way from the ideals that I was brought up to believe in. I'm not excusing or condoning the behaviour of the rioters and looters but inless we see the full picture it's going to happen more and more.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:43 AM

Hardly a riot, more a joint tantrum. Photos up on flickr by the Met I understand.

Several helicopters have been overhead where I am in Coulsdon, or it may be the same one circling.

Right, what's for dinner this evening??

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:48 AM

I'm kind of with Ian and Backwoodsman on this with the following clarification of my opinion.

You carry a sign, you are making a point.
You scream at the authorities you are making a point.
You can make a point by breaking a cctv or the window of a chain store.
You steal a plasma tv, you are just a thief.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Musket
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:53 AM

Sorry leveller, I see where you are coming from, but society does work for the vast majority and can work for anybody who wishes to participate in it and enrich it.

There is no alternative to democracy, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Why are they looting? Because they want what society can offer, they just fear it may be something to do with taking responsibility for their lives. If they were wearing rags and looked ill nourished and couldn't read and write, I might say we have got something wrong. But they can, they have the opportunities and all they seem to be able to do is get a buzz out of being outrageous.

I bet they are pissing themselves to see old men with beards quoting John F Kennedy instead of advocating for decent people, including the thousands of elderly and infirm who must be watching the telly and wondering if they ever dare leave the house again. I'm more interested in addressing their concerns than young idiots who are capable of letting their balls drop and go home if they had enough brain cells to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 11:54 AM

That is the whole point - these people will never be more than "just" or "mere".

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:09 PM

Jack, Ian - wise words with which I concur.
Respec' Man!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:11 PM

I concur except for the 'window-breaking' bit - criminal damage isn't 'making a point', it's criminal fuckin' damage.

Otherwise....spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:11 PM

"but society does work for the vast majority and can work for anybody who wishes to participate in it and enrich it."

I think it is working less and less well as the gap between rich and poor increases and those who are left behind are the weakest - the sick, the old, the disabled and those who, often through no fault of their own, are unable to support themselves and their families. It is these who are increasingly being told that they are outside society. The universal safety net is no longer there. As with Ringer, I suggest that you read Tony Judt's book - I haven't got my copy with me at the moment, but I can promise you that it is an eye-opener. Theft, I agree, is theft - but this is small scale compared to the corporate theft that we have seen recently and sets the example within our society. Greed, inequality and unfairness is endemic now, displacing the alrtuism and hope of the post-war years.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:12 PM

No, Mither, it doesn't. Look at the income distributions. Intelligence (insofar as measurable) is normally distributed about the arithmetic mean of those of the parents. Material wealth and power are not similarly distributed, although the wealth of one's parents is a significant predictor of one's wealth. Try thinking, rather than aspiring to rule.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:26 PM

Reading some of the posts here anyone would think the riots happened just for the hell of it. Last time I checked, happy people don't riot.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:27 PM

I'll concur with the person who asked how arguing here helps matters.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:31 PM

Eyar... some happy news: People with brooms

DrugCr, you're absolutely right, arguing here helps nothing. But discussion and debate is usually a good thing in society, as long as people listen to each other, can keep it civil and, erm, keep it above the belt...

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:33 PM

Bombing Tripoli is criminal damage. It is also making a point and trying to accomplish a goal.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:39 PM

Theft.haha
53 BILLION WAS STOLEN FROM THE PEOPLE OF IRELAND WHEN THE LAST IRISH GOVERNMENT DECIDED TO BUY USELESS ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES,THAT HAD TO BE SCRAPPED

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:43 PM

Schweik, and just what does your unhelpful remark have to do the rioting, in what has now gone far beyond London? Other than a politcal axe grinding, nothing as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:43 PM

At the risk of going off topic: Debate would be "I respect your opinion, but believe it is wrong". What I see is "Your opinion is wrong".

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:50 PM

"That is the whole point - these people will never be more than "just" or "mere"."

who was that speaking...oh it's just Bonzo3Legs, not important...next

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 12:56 PM

From Sunday's Observer, columnist Nick Cohen must be a bit embarrassed now:

"No riots here. Just quiet, ever-deeper misery..."

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Musket
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:19 PM

Why does Bridge think I am interesting in "aspiring to rule?"

Bad enough that these feral kids reckon nobody listens to them. Not much hope when old men with beards can't even listen to each other.

Income around those of their parents? Interesting.. I've never heard so much crap since the days when I held public office and had to sound interested when meeting with loonies in ethnic skirts and attitudes. (Isn't it fun not having responsibility any more? A serious point for this debate in that statement, but no matter...)

Perhaps you accidentally make a good point without realising it. Kids of parents who get on inspire their kids as role models. Kids of parents who sit on their arses inspire their kids as role models.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:32 PM

Kids of parents who hide their faces inspire their kids to hide their faces, and very silly they look too.

I look forward to reading of their harsh treatment in prison.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:49 PM

The BBC has twice broadcast the opinions of two girls found drinking stolen wine in Croydon. Paraphrase: "We did it to show the police we can do anything we want." And "We did it to get back at the rich, those people with shops are the rich."

They need to be shown how the shopkeepers live, like the man weeping in Hackney (I think), and then the riverside penthouses, to get a sense of proportion.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:50 PM

Some people, quite rightly, protesting about a government that seem to think that the way to put right the damage bankers have done is to take money off the lower paid. Some people protesting about consitions that they should not have to live in. Some people jumping on the bandwagon and using it as an excuse to rob and vandalise.

The press and government will, quite sensibly from their point of view, concentrate on the latter. The former will suffer because of it. No one will win. Well, maybe the bankers. Again...

Seemples.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 01:56 PM

"And "We did it to get back at the rich, those people with shops are the rich.""

It is logical (if flawed) reasoning mind you and gives a sense of the origin of the unrest.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:00 PM

You can't have that many people taking to the streets unless huge numbers are angry. The French aristocrats didn't understand that either.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:06 PM

Looked at one way, it's all about Free Enterprise,and the Big Society.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:09 PM

what does my remark mean, well if you are too thick to understand it that is your problem, but I will explain, it means that if a government can waste taxpayers money on something useless, which inevitably deprives more needy recipients of money, instead of spending on those people in society that are under privileged, you will eventually get trouble.
The English government has been told by the IMF to reduce its debt, a debt that was caused by bankers and financiers
it was not caused by those people who rioted last night.
if people see an example of massive theft[by financiers], they are not going to not steal a few shoes or trainers when they see the opportunity, for society to work good examples have to be set
unfortunately the rioters have chosen the wrong targets.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:22 PM

GSW:

53 BILLION WAS STOLEN FROM THE PEOPLE OF IRELAND WHEN THE LAST IRISH GOVERNMENT DECIDED TO BUY USELESS ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES,THAT HAD TO BE SCRAPPED

No, no - a thousand times no! ;>)>

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:24 PM

Indeed, Dick - you make a good point.

What a lot of interesting words on this thread. And no solutions, I fear.

What governments never do - or appear never to do - is to continuously and implacably ask the question, "Why?" There is a reason for everything, but you have to be brave enough and responsible enough and committed enough to keep asking that question, probing and face the answers it brings.

There are obvious reasons for the violence and mayhem which has erupted in London and other cities, and it doesn't take rocket science to understand what they are. Responding with effective actions on the part of government is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:30 PM

I suppose it will be Guildford tonight or Dorking.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:39 PM

Good Soldier Schweik Gotcha, I see where you're coming from, it's not ok to attack and steal from the average business owner, but it would be perfectly ok to attack and pillage from the government...I think, sunshine, you need to be taken in for questioning.......

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: skipy
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 02:55 PM

Cut & paste from facebook:-

Message to all the rioters .......... . u wanna be big men and fight to the death , well get your sorry little arses on the next plane to Afghanistan and stand alongside real men , they're called soldiers and they are fighting a war unlike you pathetic wastes of space, your not fit to wipe my a......e !!!!!
copy and paste if you agree !

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:14 PM

A pumped up pimply youth in my local shop today, ranting at the Indian lady behind the counter. She smiling and going "Mmm, Mmm" all the while and not rising to it.

As he left with his four pack he pronounces: "It's All about the fucking PROFIT, all about the PROFIT!"

I was somewhat bemused at the time, but it actually took me a few hours before the relevance of his semi-aggressive manner to the shopkeeper and the words he punctuated it with, eventually perculated through in light of recent events.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:15 PM

Maybe they don't agree with the war being fought there?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:21 PM

As expected the brain-dead loon leftie brigade has arrived on the thread to show their support for these mindless thugs. Manchester getting it now, possibly Salford later tonight.

What we need is water cannons, plastic bullets and the PSNI, they don't take prisoners or listen to the civil rights of vandals, thieves and thugs!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 03:31 PM

All over the countries there are going to be villains preparing for a night of burglary and so forth, in towns denuded of police who'll be off in London tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:13 PM

"We did it to show the police we can do anything we want."

These above, are the only words on this thread that will chill the politicians to the bone.



"Its own are all things between earth and heaven;
But this it knows not; and if one arise
To tell this truth, it kills him unforgiven."

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:19 PM

As I believe I've already said, it's not JUST about London anymore!!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:22 PM

Not Just London

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bert
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:24 PM

These things never start in middle class areas, maybe raising the standard of living would help.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: josepp
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:28 PM

Chickens coming home to roost as far as I know or care.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:31 PM

Thanks for your input josepp I'm sure there must be a fair number of your sort hanging about. Thank goodness there are those who do care about their community and its fate

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 04:34 PM

Bluesman, I don't think anyone is supporting the rioters as such, just trying to work out why this sort of thing happens in order to ensure its not repeated. My sympathies are with the local residents and small businesses who have suffered as a result of the riots and will continue to suffer long after the riots have ended. Brain dead hang 'em, flog 'em, lock 'em up macho rhetoric is neither use nor ornament in this situation. Personally, I'd say a good start would be to have those found guilty of involvement do some serious community service as a punishment rebuilding the communities they've smashed up. They might even learn some socially useful skills in the process... the other thing would be for politicians to take seriously the fact we have a long term underclass and think about how that much bigger problem can be resolved... because unless it is things won't get much better. Cutting services in areas that are already on the edge was never going to be the Tories' brightest idea.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: andrew e
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:14 PM

http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/51886-as-britain-riots-and-burns-what-david-icke-wrote-two-years-ago-

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:15 PM

Here come the girls. God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:22 PM

I notice that Icke's lizards are not that alien.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 05:55 PM

Two things occur to me

1) The country was doing better when someone was running it through their Blackberry. Perhaps we could put the mobile phone in charge of the country.

2) have you seen that youtube of Nick Clegg. Just before the election - the Greeks were rioting, and he correctly predicted that it would kick off here if the tories carried out their economic policies, because they would impact immediately on the very poorest in society.

All of which begs the question - imagine being that clever, that prescient. Then tying up with Cameron. Obviously the wrong man is the senior partner. I confess I didn't see this coming - he did! Respect! where its due.

This always seems to happen when the tories are in power. Toxteth, the poll tax, now this.....They 're always too damn busy saving 'the economy' for some abstraction of a Daily Mail reader to see the bleeding obvious and its conaequences.

The daily Mail in typical fashion on the front page calls everyone who suspects there might be a connection between tory policies and this latest nonsense - cynical and something else.

I'm not cynical - but I get pissed off with people seeking power and taking no responsibility for their actions. Would any of this happen in a country where the police had the resources and were not frightened to have a heavy overwhelming presence when the occasion demanded.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: andrew e
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 06:42 PM

Will Fly said,

What a lot of interesting words on this thread. And no solutions, I fear.
What governments never do - or appear never to do - is to continuously and implacably ask the question, "Why?" There is a reason for everything, but you have to be brave enough and responsible enough and committed enough to keep asking that question, probing and face the answers it brings.
There are obvious reasons for the violence and mayhem which has erupted in London and other cities, and it doesn't take rocket science to understand what they are. Responding with effective actions on the part of government is another matter.


That's right Will, the politicians never ask "Why", and they never will.
I'm talking about why we do anything, as well as more specific actions.
If I can't ask myself that question, then I can never imagine myself in someone else's position.
The politicians are just as incapable of asking this question of themselves as the rioters are.

I would suggest that in fact most politicians are the same as the rioters, it just manifests it different actions. Though if you look at it more closely, it's maybe very similar.

No problem at all with violence. [wars in Iraq etc.]
Grab what you can for free. Little care for others.
Put your party before the country.
Criticise others.
Lack of love.

And two questions.

Who in their right mind would want to be a politician?
Who in their right mind would want to be a rioter?

No personal insults please!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:09 PM

""The present trouble in Tottenham was possibly sparked off and escalated by heavy-handed policing following the killing of a young man, quickly followed up by a possible heavy handed stop-and-search in Brixton.""

According to the locals, there were about 400 police out in Tottenham facing around a thousand rampaging vandals, and it took a great deal of time to move in a force sufficient to take action without being ovewhelmed by numbers.

Hands up all those who think that constitutes heavy handed policing.........NO? Neither do I!

And I'm sick to death of hearing all this crap about disadvantaged youth forced to protest in the only way open to them.

On BBC tonight, we were shown the texts on the Blackberry network which was used to plan these events.

Not verbatim (though you can probably find it on the BBC website)

"If you're down for getting some free stuff...........

No mention of political protest at all.

Just a bunch of feral rats going on the rampage to steal, pillage, and destroy

1. Because they can.
2. Because they want all the goodies that are available NOW, but they don't intend to work for them.
3. Because they have zero respect for their fellow man, for the rule of law, or for any moral or ethical concept, compounded with zero self respect.

Save your sympathy for the poor bastards who suffered the loss of everything they had, and in all probability (when the flames die down) those who lie dead in those burned out buildings.

They are the ones who need your sympathy, not the fuckwits who are gloating over a newly acquired plasma TV.

Oh, and in answer to the comment about police marksmen, that second bullet finished up in the radio after hitting the gangster's arm, so not an inept shot at all.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:34 PM

Apparently the Blackberry network was used because its messages are encrypted, and that is why there was no prior intelligence for the police to let them know what to expect.

Poor disadvantaged kids??.......What does a Blackberry cost?

And now they have Plasma TV, I-Pads, freeview set top boxes etc. etc.

I don't have half the kit these so called "poor" kids have, and I worked for fifty three years non stop.

But then, I do have this unfortunate disinclination to steal from others or burn down others' businesses.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: bobad
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 07:48 PM

Black author Darcus Howe describes the London riots as an insurrection.

Interview (the sound improves at 55 sec.)

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:10 PM

Well, I was impressed with Manchester. Then tonight happened. Dawson's was hit bad, which is upsetting - those pianos are luckily still beautiful.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:26 PM

well, in North London, four police officers have been given cups of tea by the local residents

Make Tea Not Trouble...nice

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 08:54 PM

Don't worry Don. Your government will do it in stead, albeit the burning will be metaphorical. Steal from the poor, give to the rich.


It's nice if your forbears succeeded and rose by honest diligence. Indeed it's admirable. But nowadays that is quite rare, indeed almost impossible, unless you have a spectacular ability or run of luck.

The dishonest and unprincipled like Lord Sugar or Rupert Murdoch or Russian oligarchs who applied the skills learned as illegal black marketeers (or mobsters) to steal state assets control our lives, and thanks to the media they and cronies run (not to mention the Sunday Spurt), bling is the thing. The media teach that Jordan is a success, as are premiership footballers, and that success or prestige is not about diligence.

But those like Norman Tebbit (of whom I am sorry to feel that I hear an echo) tell the less fortunate to "get on your bike". That will not create successes but at best wage slaves with ever fewer rights as successive governments and union busting imported American lawyers castrate labour laws.

The rioters (rightly) feel (I infer) that they are not in control of their lives, that the only times they will be are in these riots, and the only other times they will feel so is after artificial stimulus. They are each a "king for a day". These are problems not born of former socialist governments, but of the ethos of the Thatcher generation. Blaming the powerless for feeling powerless is not the answer.

The police certainly have the shitty end of the stick - but that does not mean that the answer to the riots is to laud our magnificent boys in blue and give them a bigger stick. Eventually that leads to the Peterloo massacre.

While it is not yet wholly clear that the illegal firearm found was Duggan's, if it was then that should make his death a righteous shoot, just as the attempt to arrest a long standing member of a violent weapons and drug-dealing gang was a righteous arrest. But that does not mean that there is no root cause for the riots. There is. It is the fact that the rioters can see (and they are probably right at present) no way for them to attain the things that society tells them are the only measures of success and respect.

Society is broken. The rioters may be criminals but repeating that and threatening state violence is not the answer. Their anger must be understood before it can be controlled or disarmed.

Rule is a compact between rulers and ruled. When enough of the ruled do not obey, there are not enough forces of the state to compel obedience. Surely we in England learned that in Ireland in 1922.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:13 PM

breaking news - Libya recognises London rebels as legitimate government of UK.

ok .... I know .... I'm outta here.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 09:15 PM

Well your analysis may be right Richard. There is a lot I would agree with. However in the short term. We've got to restore order ASAP - and bigger sticks seem to me the best option this week.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: josepp
Date: 09 Aug 11 - 10:06 PM

/////Thanks for your input josepp I'm sure there must be a fair number of your sort hanging about. Thank goodness there are those who do care about their community and its fate////

Do you think there might have been Indians, Chinese and Africans who cared about their communities and their fates? There were probably a few.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:35 AM

As predicted, this is developing along political polarities with the usual impotent, raucous ranting from the rabid righties who have actually no interest in finding the causes and, therefore, perhaps a solution. It's easy to dismiss the rioters and looters and just a bunch of opportunist criminals (which, of course, they are) but what we have to ask is, why now and why in the most disadvantaged communities? Let's hope the parliamentary debate on Thursday brings some chickens home to roost because anyone who actually takes the time think about this will know exactly where the blame lies. I won't hold my breath, though.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:37 AM

Well for once, I have to agree with DonT. Every word spot on.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:40 AM

On the other hand the young see an uncaring rip off Britain, people like Murdoch who have no social conscience whatsoever about what he does for his money or how he gets it and so in turn have no qualms about rioting or looting.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:48 AM

"Would any of this happen in a country where the police had the resources and were not frightened to have a heavy overwhelming presence when the occasion demanded. "

Al, the police are sick of having to go in and clear up the shit left behind by incompetent politicians who are also attacking them - and, let's face it, this governemtn has shown levels of incompetence (and self-interest) that are unprecedented.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bob Wakeling
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:54 AM

All this talk about local kids and local families and how poor they are. As many are aware, I grew up in the East End, that swarm of thugs dealers and car thieves don't look very local to me. Maybe time someone addressed the real reason this type riot, steal and wreck public buildings. If only we had listened to that guy in the sixties, he made so much sense.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:11 AM

==="On the other hand the young see an uncaring rip off Britain, people like Murdoch who have no social conscience whatsoever about what he does for his money or how he gets it and so in turn have no qualms about rioting or looting."===
,.,.,.,.

Something of a leap of logic there, Patsy. That "so in turn" perhaps just a trifle dubious?

Murdoch doesn't do anything illegal. & he is not above the law for all his wealth: look at what happened to the not dissimilar Lord [Conrad] Black, who was convicted of fraudulence in acquiring his wealth and is in prison to this day. All Murdoch does is supply a lot of what people, in their millions, want and are willing to pay for. If they didn't and weren't, then he wouldn't have all that money, would he? You might not like all his products, but who are you so to despise the taste of others? And when his underlings bend the law, he doesn't tolerate it ~~ NOTW!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Musket
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:13 AM

Nice to see it is all Th*tcher's fault. Must admit, I never say a good word for her myself, but the mental leap above is rather breathtaking..

"Their anger must be understood." Yes, I do understand it. it' all about having a laugh and sticking two fingers up at society. Been done before and will be done again.

No matter, plenty of work for solicitors at the end of it all. I am sure they can find a solicitor somewhere who reckons he understands their plight and is capable of spouting philosophical bullshit in answer to the question; "Why did the defendant steal the assets of others?" Good thing this looting, just goes to show there is a bit of capitalist in every downtrodden oppressed hoodie...

What about the downtrodden oppressed old people who daren't leave their homes now? What about my son living in the middle of Liverpool, sat indoors at night because going out would be foolish? Poor bugger is only there as a post grad student, he doesn't deserve the loss of personal freedom either. And neither do hundreds of thousands of others...

Methinks the government would want to think about them before going any thought to feral scroats and their aim to have a laugh.

This isn't about a Tory government,this is about lawlessness. There is no Tory government and if there was, there is one way to fight them and one way only. The next general election.

If I were an armchair revolutionary, I would ask myself if this rioting and looting won't affect me because I agree with a cause they don't actually have. It's your windows next...

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:16 AM

"Maybe time someone addressed the real reason this type riot"

The warnings have been there for those who wished to see them. Here are a few pertinent passages from Tony Judt's 'Ill Fares the Land', written just before his death in 2010:


"More than anything else, the welfare states of the mid-20th century established the profound indecency of defining civic status as a function of economic good-fortune."

"...our present approach to welfare provision encourages the view that those who cannot secure regular work are in some measure responsible for their own misfortune. The more such people we have in our midst, the greater the risks to civic and political stability."

"It is one thing to dwell amongst inequality and its pathologies; it is quite another to revel in them."

"There is quite a lot of evidence that people trust other people more if they have a lot in common with them...The more equal a society, the greater the trust."

"In an age when young people are encouraged to maximise self-interest and self-advancement, the grounds for altruism or even good behaviour become obscured."

"We live in an age of fear....fear that it is not just we who can no longer shape aour lives but that those in authority have also lost control, to forces beyond their reach."

Prophetic words!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:18 AM

Ian you know what that great philosopher Auric goldfinger said

Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, third time - it has to be something to do with the bloody tories being in power again....

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:18 AM

"If only we had listened to that guy in the sixties, he made so much sense."
And done what - send the newly arrived back to where they came from and the second and third generations - where exactly?
Arguments like his only manage to drive the wedge between the communities in deeper - it was garbage like Powell and his supporters who set the scene for what is now happening.
Make newcomers feel like intruders and evetually they will start smashing up the furniture
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:32 AM

Why that coy aposeopesis, Al? The third time, to remind the few who couldn't fathom Big Al's reference, is ENEMY ACTION. And who is the 'enemy' to your thinking, Al? ~ democratically elected governments, or poor pitiable impoverished yobbos who can't bother to work but can somehow afford smartphones and BlackBerries, who get a buzz from terrorising their OWN communities and driving young women to leap from flames thru upstairs windows and be lucky to be caught by those below?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bob Wakeling
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:35 AM

The police have one arm tied behind their back thanks to moaning left wing types. I would prefer to see the lads deal with this type.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:39 AM

"The police have one arm tied behind their back thanks to moaning left wing types. I would prefer to see the lads deal with this type."

Complete and utter bollocks! My son's a policeman and they are, as I posted here several times, totally fed up with being asked to clear up the mess created by this government. Theye are as pissed off with Cameron as anyone. Try getting some facts before you open your mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bob Wakeling
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:49 AM

What has this to do with government ? Les, I thought you were a better man than that by your photograph.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:00 AM

Is Conrad Black in prison here?

Yes, Mither, it does all flow from Thatcher (well, and her ilk - the grabbies) - remember "There is no such thing as Society"? Now it is "the Big Society" - all still about "Don't care in the Community".

Oh, goodness - while I am being nostalgic, here come the rabid overt racists again. With their little "We've seen you with these people and we know who you are". Offering to do a bit of "policing", eh? Well I wonder who will get "arrested" and maybe killed in the process. Convicted by the "people's court" of offences like DWB.

No wonder there are problems.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:09 AM

What difference is that supposed to make, Richard? Please elucidate; I genuinely cannot fathom what point you think you are making in trying to establish the precise whereabouts of Lord Black's incarceration.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:33 AM

The UK system let him remain at large.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:40 AM

Well let's hope it doesn't allow those feral criminal arseholes who have burnt, looted and rioted these past few nights remain at large.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:45 AM

These incidents can hardly be dignified by the name 'riots'. They are more like wild, 'free form' shopping expeditions and are probably an apt comment on our consumer society.

I also can't help noticing that you are more likely to be 'kettled', batonned or killed if you take part in a political protest (or are an innocent bystander at one) than if you are a feral yob trashing a high street. It's contrasts like this which reveal the true nature of our political system.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:56 AM

"This isn't about a Tory government,this is about lawlessness. There is no Tory government and if there was, there is one way to fight them and one way only. The next general election."

This is about a group of young people who owe allegiance to no govt, no nation, no family, only themselves.

Who made them like that?.....look in the mirror.

Our support for a rotten system, which encouraged the mantra of self(there is no such thing as society), made this generation of young folks.
Consumerism, materialism, money, there is nothing else in their lives, how do you expect people to behave when they realise that the greed of others has deprived them of any sort of meaningful(in their terms) future?

Prepare yourselves for the worst, this is just the beginning....soon the choice will be to join the angry brigade, or settle for military rule, with all that that entails.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:09 AM

As one youth worker put it, "People with hope don't riot."

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:12 AM

However bad you think the system is, the "riots" were not a response to it.
The mobs were not politically motivated.
The demonstration on Friday was about a genuine concern.
The power of the social media was unleashed and the ability to overwhelm a local police presence was discovered.
It then became just opportunistic robbery and arson.
It is not about ideology, but technology.
Disappointing for the ideological zealots.
Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:17 AM

In London last night, the "rioters" were massively outnumbered and frustrated by residents protecting their communities.
This is not the start of anything.
Now the social media misuse is understood, it can be overcome.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:17 AM

A word about the pish spouted by the "equality" crowd.
The immigrants have all been encouraged here to service the system, not make this a more free or equal group of nations.
The benefits system was designed as a safety valve, but supported by "liberal" idiots it has "growed an growed" 'till it has become a monster enslaving those that it rules, taking away all remaining vestiges of worth from the lives of ordinary people.

My uncle had no legs....there was no incapacity, he carved his own crutches, he worked five days a week felling huge Beech trees with his two brothers....he contributed to his family, there wasn't a prouder, more independent man on earth.

This system of greed and phony equality has produced a generation of worthless creatures whos world is defined by what can be bought by a few pieces of coloured paper.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:21 AM

Sorry Keith, I didn't mean the riots were a response to the system, I meant that they were a symptom of it.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:32 AM

"However bad you think the system is, the "riots" were not a response to it."

Ah, well that's alright then. We can just all relax and let the government continue tearing our society to pieces. Thank goodness for that!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:01 AM

the people who say these riots aren't political are being too narrow in their definition of politics. Granted none of the rioters may be in the Young Conservatives or the Young Communists.

However James Cameron once remarked, Communism appeals to the peasants of Malaya and China because you can distil its message into two sentences - more food for us, and kill the bosses.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:10 AM

Well, or conservatism - more wealth for us, screw the workers, and God help the incapable.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:11 AM

PS - Akenaton, you are frustrating. You can go from so right to so wrong in 40 words or fewer.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:14 AM

Leveller, just because the riots are not a response to the system does not mean the system can not be improved.
Did you really need that spelt out?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:14 AM

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:24 AM

This bloke expresses better than I could where I believe this problem comes from.(in my 38th year as a teacher)
"Years of liberal dogma have spawned a generation of amoral, uneducated, welfare dependent, brutalised youngsters"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:24 AM

"Leveller, just because the riots are not a response to the system does not mean the system can not be improved.
Did you really need that spelt out?"

Well, I'd like some evidence to show that they're not a response to the system. Afraid I'm not prepared to just take your word for it.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:38 AM

""It is the fact that the rioters can see (and they are probably right at present) no way for them to attain the things that society tells them are the only measures of success and respect.""

Egregious twaddle!

If the kids of a deprived area go on the rampage out of frustration that is, while reprehensible, at least understandable.

That is not what we have seen happening over the last four days, and you know it.

This series of looting sprees has absolutely nothing to do with poor disadvantaged kids.

Nor were they the kids from that deprived area, since the rioters were pouring in from miles around on the invitation by Blackberry message to "come and get some free stuff."

Onlookers said that the original outbreak was APPARENTLY mostly teenagers, many of school age, but that the copy cat events were mostly adult males and some females in the twenty to thirty age range and older.

I said earlier that I had worked for fifty three straight years. In fact I never collected one penny from the state in unemployment benefit.

Whenever I was facing unemployment, I got off my arse and went looking, and I always found work, simply because I took whatever job was available until something better came along.

That, starting in 1957, was me following the actual intended meaning of that, constantly misquoted entirely out of context, comment from Maggie Thatcher, taking responsibility for my life and making my own way in the world by hard bloody work (So she wasn't the first to think of it).

Kids were telling me in the early seventies "There's no work out there". There was, and I found it.

The problem today is that kids think that they can loll around street corners, devoid of skills or ambition and do fuck all, and one day somebody will give them a job with all the benefits and a fifty K salary.

Somebody needs to tell them "You fucked about at school and wasted your education, so no go out and get your hands dirty and earn your way as we had to do."

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:54 AM

I don't normally quote myself, but (from another thread):

This isn't being done by poor kids who have nothing. Poor kids who have nothing don't steal 42-inch plasma screens, they steal food. Poor kids who have nothing don't communicate with each other via their Blackberrys and laptops. These people - for whatever reason - do not feel for those whose lives they have destroyed, or even seem to think they're doing anything wrong.

If you haven't listened to Penny's "Here come the girls" link, do so. Now. If you can't get the video clip from where you are, here's an audio from BBC World Service. But try to watch it if you can because the relationship between what you're hearing and what you're seeing is heartbreaking. These kids don't even know who the government IS, for God's sake.

http://audioboo.fm/boos/434411-leana-hosea-speaks-to-croydon-looters-on-bbcworld

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:59 AM

Absolutely spot-on again, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:59 AM

Would anyone else agree that this has nothing to do with government policies or bankers.

Those involved in the anarchy on our streets are nothing more than lazy workshy bastards who despise anyone who owns a business, drives a nice car, lives in a nice home, pays their way in life.

These little fucks just want to take TV's phones, computers out of shops and laugh at police officers standing watching them from police lines a quarter of a mile away watching another crowd.

Stop all this Cameron, Thatcher crap and open your eyes, these little bastards would rob you as quick as they would look at you, hope they head the direction of Bridge, now that would please me.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:02 AM

Actually, listen to the audio clip - it's longer and tells you more. (Vid is about 30 seconds & aud is a minute and a half). These girls are nearly 18 (legal age) and they're not in school but they work (provided their jobs haven't been burned out by now). The clip gives a better demographic picture of who they are.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:21 AM

the English government are so stupid,what they should have said is there will be extra police in all the major cities, to let the rioters know that extra police were going to be in london, only achieves a shifting of the violence some where else in this case to manchester.
YES,IMO THIS IS A RESULT OF PEOPLE BELIEVING THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SOCIETY.
what has happened, well years ago people were frightened into good behaviour by religion, now there is a vacuum, nothing has replaced it morally, we are left with a society that is concerned about consumerism ,looking after number one ,not having any respect for your local community or neighbours,IMO this is a direct reflection of Thatchers philosophy of looking after number one and f### everyone else, WE ARE REAPING THATCHERS OATS, A WHIRLWIND OF ALIENATED CONSUMERS WHO HAVE NO MORAL SCRUPLES, who believe in nothing else but looking after number one.
I blame the capatalist consumer system that has dehumanised people, and that has taken away any moral guidance and created a them and us situation

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:21 AM

Absolute twaddle, as usual, Don. Just how out of touch with the real world can you be?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:22 AM

That's a helpful link, Bonnie, especially with the comments. One struck me particularly, being about the sense of entitlement the young people have. This strikes me as curious, since until this week, having a sense of entitlement was a criticism of the Tory front bench.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: pdq
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:28 AM

Marxists always incite the ignorant street rabble to do their dirty work for them.

Now they have Rock music, movies, newspapers, magazines, Rap, and "community organizers" to pound the rabble endlessly with their class warfare message.

Salvadore Allende's Leftist mobs dragged hundreds of small business owners from their shops and tortured and murdered them in the name of "the people".

The mobsters then looted the stores of everything they could steal.

The same bastards later complained that there were places to buy groceries.

What's different is that the London rioters seem to be pampered, fat, spoiled brats.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:32 AM

Just wondering when was the last (if any) time Don and Bluesman actually visited a 'sink' estate and talked to the people there to find out how hard their lives are, what their aspirations are and how litle hope they have of ever achieving them. Come on, answer honestly! Or, as I suspect, do you just sit on your smug, self-satisfied arses and pass fatuous comments about something you know absolutely nothing about.

Oh, and instead of slagging these poeple off, just what are you prepared to do to help them? Fuck-all, I expect.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: SINSULL
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 08:48 AM

I suspect Don and Bluesman are white and middle class. As am I. Raised by hard working parents who saw to it that I earned my way from age 11 with baby sitting jobs. When I worked I paid "rent". As did my four brothers. We went to school or we went to work. No free rides.
All that has little or nothing to do with the rioters.
There is always a minority who feels entitled - every family I know has one. And yes - some of the rioters fall into that category. But it is not at the root of the problem.
There is a lot of anger and frustration fueling these riots. Unless it is addressed, it will take little to set off the destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:08 AM

Thank you mayomick for sharing that link to the video Tottenham Riots-The Truth

Here's my transcription of that interview. Besides agreeing with just about everything he said, I felt that a transcription of this interview should be available for the historical/folkloric record, and to increase access to the video for those who are hard of hearing. Besides those reasons, I transcribed that interview because I think it would make a great monologue (not only because of what was said but also because of how it was said, and the scene itself).

Note: A question mark in brackets is found in the transcription after mention of Broadsworth farm because I couldn't understand that next word. Also, I added question marks after the man's distinctive use of the interjection "yeah". But that word isn't really a question.

I also created a page for this transcription on my Cocojams website at http://www.cocojams.com/content/tottenham-riots-truth-interview-transcription


Transcription: Tottenham Riots - the truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJQHWwEpwAY

[indistinguishable chatter in the background]

Yep that me? Well, as far as I'm concerned the process-protest started like this right? There were about 150 people outside the police station. And they were out there and they were quite patient. All they wanted was a few answers as to what happened. The police completely ignored them. You know what I mean, treated 'dem with contempt. And even at that point they didn't retaliate. And then, a young sixteen year old-well approximately-went to approach them to again find out probably what was going on. And they just took some evasive action by pushing her and drawin their batons and that's when they people then started to retaliate. Now I think in all circumstances having seen that most people'd retaliate. Yes?

Now the police seems to have this contempt for people. And I don't think they necessarily needed to have killed the guy yeah? They had apprehended him, right? They was in control, right? There was no need for them to kill him. There was absolutely none, yeah? So basically, they might be surprised that this has happened, yeah. But they still don't seem to have learned their lesson thirty years ago approximately what happened in Broadwater Farm and Tottsworth [?] and them places, yeah?. And you cannot keep oppressing people, right? They talk about Tottenham being bad and things. There's nothing wrong with Tottenham, right. We've got a mixture, right, of people in Tottenham. Everybody in general gets on, yeah? So why are they tryin to make out as if Tittenham, you understand, is, you understand is all hotspot, you understand, it is that's bad. I mean look today, you can see all different sorts of groups or whatever, cultures of people, yeah? There's nothing that serious in Tottenham, yeah? But now I says they seems to pacifically target Tottenham and places like Brixton the deprived area where they know that predominately most Black peoples, you understand, have been sort of reside, yeah?

Well, I sincerely hope that this today, this event, will sort of make some changes some progress, yeah? Cause this is not just about Black people now cause if you can see the thing and the pictures there's All sorts of people, yeah? Ah it's not just Black people. So they can't use that now as an excuse and say, you know, Black people retaliate in, you know what I mean, in different ways, and things like that, yeah? So... it's a shame that it's happened the way it's happened. But unfortunately they say "You got to fight fire with fire, yeah". So I hope that they will stand up and acknowledge and DO something about it. It's as simple as that, yeah?.


-snip-

Please post the word that is said after the mention of Broadwater far, and any other corrections to this transcript. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:13 AM

I saw for myself some of the damage done by these little scroats whilst in Croydon this morning. I spoke to many people who are all of one mind - totally against what they have done. It is good that cases are being referred to the Crown Court where higher sentences can be given.

Even Maplins at West Croydon was all boarded up!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:16 AM

The main issue is that people aren't willing to say "Fine, I'll have to take the job at McDonalds". It's money, and that's the important thing.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: pdq
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:20 AM

These spoiled little bastards are saying "give us everything we want or we will destroy everything we can and makes your lives miserable".

Anyone arrested who is found not to be a citizen should automatically be deported. His rotten parents should also be deported if this shit is ever going to end.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:23 AM

Also, not good news. Apparently the person the police shot didn't shoot first. Hmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:36 AM

""Also, not good news. Apparently the person the police shot didn't shoot first. Hmmm.""

He didn't have to. The rules of engagement are that if he raises the weapon and an armed police officer fears for the life of himself, a colleague, or a member of the public, then he is justified in shooting.

If he does not, and somebody is injured or killed as a result, that is in all probability the end of his armed status, and maybe his career.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:38 AM

They are not all from sink estates. A lot of them are just opportunistically along for the joyride, but those added numbers swell the tide of destruction. The problem is wider than sink estates and their related demographics; or quickly becomes wider once you factor in the mob-mentality, coupled with the gimme-gimme mindset and the (spurious) sense of entitlement.


PS: Azizi, how great to see you back! Even if it is such a sorrowful topic - I managed to miss your other recent posts (been away in France). Love Cocojams -

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:39 AM

""I suspect Don and Bluesman are white and middle class. As am I. Raised by hard working parents who saw to it that I earned my way from age 11 with baby sitting jobs. When I worked I paid "rent". As did my four brothers. We went to school or we went to work. No free rides.""

As you can see from my last post, wrong I'm afraid Sins.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:39 AM

Now we're seeing the upside. Thousands of people from all walks of life coming together to help clean up the mess. Suddenly we have a sense of community. No doubt our right-wing friends will find a way of denigrating and belittling these people as well.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:47 AM

""Now we're seeing the upside. Thousands of people from all walks of life coming together to help clean up the mess. Suddenly we have a sense of community. No doubt our right-wing friends will find a way of denigrating and belittling these people as well.2"

Why in Hell's name would we do that?

Unless of course you are claiming that the ones cleaning up are the same ones who were looting, in which case I'd advise a change of meds.

It is one of the most heartening things to come out of this, that more people seem to agree with me than with you, and as a result the police are currently being inundated with calls identifying the pictures on Facebook.

The other is the action you quote above, lest we forget that the stinking thieves are, in fact, a minority. Good to see the kind of sharing community spirit I was talking about in my last but one post.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:47 AM

Don, I'm not sure he was armed either. But, I'm going off one tweet so I'm not in the best position to judge.

Also, my Mum just got in from work. She usually finishes at about 5:30, but people have been asked to go home because there's apparently going to be more tonight. Good thing I didn't decide to go into town and paint models.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:52 AM

This is pretty acute:

Shopocalypse Now

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:55 AM

A future soldier, graphic designer and university graduate were among dozens of alleged rioters who appeared in court.
A total of 99 people have so far been charged with offences connected with the violence and looting in London over the last three days.

At least 40 of them appeared in court yesterday as surprising details emerged of the kind of people allegedly involved.

One was a man who was about to join the army while others included a youth worker and a forklift truck driver.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 09:58 AM

""Just wondering when was the last (if any) time Don and Bluesman actually visited a 'sink' estate and talked to the people there to find out how hard their lives are, what their aspirations are and how litle hope they have of ever achieving them.""

You know nothing whatever about my life, and less about what I would, or would not do to help people worse off than myself, so to save you having to think, I will tell you.

I grew up in one of the worst sink estate areas in North London, which was also about fifty percent bomb craters. My father did three jobs to support his family, eight hours a day as a shopfitting joiner, and five hours every evening working at a local furniture repairer's, then two eight hour shifts each weekend working on bomb damaged Council properties.

With him as a role model I worked hard enough at school (in spite of spending three days a week at the Western Ophthalmic Hospital in Paddington) to win a scholarship to a decent Grammar.

I started my working life as an analytical chemist, only later realising that a chemist's pay was about one third of what the labourers in the brewery got.

After about ten years I'd had enough, so packed it in and took on an apprenticeship in my father's trade. From then till I retired I have done about every dirty, disgusting, job you can think of and more.

So, your opinion of me is wrong, and worthless (about par for the course).

It might interest you to know that one of the first men to leave court, having been convicted of riot and theft works as a teaching assistant.

So much for disadvantaged youth.

Today's kids are the third generation offspring of the sixties Dr Spock kids. They were allowed to choose what to do at school and were totally undisciplined, and that lack of discipline and respect has been passed down the line, growing more pronounced, and more unmanageable with each generation.

When I was a kid every bloody thing was rationed, and you think I don't know about deprivation.

When things got tough we shared what we had. We didn't go out and steal somebody else's share. We had respect for our parents, respect for our teachers and respect for the local Bobby (who would always help if we needed it).

Most of all, we had too much self respect (and pride), to steal or beg, from the government or anybody else.

What none of you lefties ever want to hear is that Maggie Thatcher did not intend that everybody should grab whatever he/she could.

You all shy away from the fact that she was suggesting that those who could afford to pay their own way would do so, leaving the government more to spend on those who really needed it.

That's what left wingers can't stand, because the concept of the rich paying their way destroys what they want to believe about the Tories.

Apart from my eye problems as a child, the first money I ever took from the government was my state pension. I was actually registered on the list of one doctor for twenty two years without even meeting him.

Now tell me again, what is your objection to the rich paying their way? Because it's always the left wingers that go berserk when the idea is mentioned.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:09 AM

"No doubt our right-wing friends will find a way of denigrating and belittling these people as well."

Well I'm anything but RW Leveller, as I'm sure Don will cheerfully attest, given the spats he and I have had in the past, but I have to say that, IMHO, he is absolutely right in his summation of what's gone on.

It is simply not good enough to take the line that, because people are having a hard time, they can be given carte-blanche to burn, loot and riot. My grand-parents and parents had absolutely fuck-all, they lived through the 30's Depression and a World War, lived their entire lives in council houses, no money, no car, no holidays, no electronic gadgetry, just a life of hard fucking work for peanuts-wages. But what they did have was dignity, morals, the work-ethic, respect for other people and other peoples' property, respect for the law, and a firm belief in education, and they made sure that, unlike many of the parents of the criminal animals we've been watching this past few days, they passed their standards on to their children.

There used to be a saying when I was a kid in the 50's - "You don't have to be rich to be clean". And you don't have to be rich to live like a decent human being either. Those feral scrotes need teaching that one.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:12 AM

I was typing my postr as Don posted his - couldn't agree more. Never thought I'd see the day, but I'm agreeing with a Conservative - because he's fucking right!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:17 AM

There is a lot more going on here than many care to admit. The elephant in the room here is PC.
A Turkish guy on the radio today admitted they are forming vigilante groups because they feel businesses in their community came under attack by a section of the community known to them, and they took photographs of those involved and are currently distributing them and will deal with the culprits in their own way. Asian shopkeepers have spoken on television and radio blaming Afro Caribbean mobs for singling them out. When the dust settles there is a possibility of repercussions within mixed race communities. These street disturbances may be nothing to what is about to happen.
I do hope I am proved to be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:33 AM

Hmm, the post eater has been at it again

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:35 AM

Let's be fair to Don. He has not always been well placed - which makes his persistent attempts to undermine and help those who would undermine the welfare state all the more frustrating.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:38 AM

The question can be answered. Racism. This will happen in the U.S. as well as U.K.
The cops overreact. Authoritarianism will never work for long (only in fascist countries for a while).

The gap is widening economically for not only rich and poor but whites and minorities.

Most white people do not understand racism. They can't relate in spite of their humble beginnings. The white folks may have had hard times but they didn't have the deck stacked against them because of their color. They will be continued to be reminded until they look past their smug self-righteousness and see that they are also culpable in violence.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:44 AM

Hey guys? If you want to argue over Don's life could you take it elsewhere? There's a post new thread button you know

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 10:46 AM

Who's arguing over Don's life?

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Harry Brown
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:10 AM

As patronising as the term "Respectable Working Class" ever was
WE did, and to a shamefully diminishing extent, still do exist.

Loyal old labour supporting trade unionists
or even working class tories.
Shop stewards or factory Foremen.
Despite the political divisions and cultural and aspirational contradictions,
We still had so much in common.
A shared respect for Education self improvement, personal dignity, and integrity.
Pride in our Council homes, families and communities.

The Council Estate was a genuine positive post war concept
for social reform and stability.

Corrupted and blighted by inept inner city planning and inhumane tower block architecture;
and 3 decades of deliberate budgetary neglect and cynical asset stripping 'right to buy' propaganda,
with the inevitable mortgage foreclosures
and corporate acquisition of the choicest provincial estate properties,
as local industries closed down
making new ex-council tennant 'home owners' suddenly redundant and homeless.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:24 AM

At the risk of offending people on this thread with a little levity, some photo-shopped snaps of looters made me chuckle:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JFUsPGs9j6g/TkJgbXPpgJI/AAAAAAAAACw/zsc6ZZieCAk/s1600/tumblr_lppk2w3HjM1r1qajlo1_400.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-wOH1bWsV-HA/TkJgl1PFa8I/AAAAAAAAAC0/fBai2LkaGRM/s1600/tumblr_lppjvb7KgW1r1qajlo1_500.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5lAXI87g4nw/TkJhMfKrGVI/AAAAAAAAADA/9542a09n94Y/s1600/tumblr_lpphsgdR9t1r1qajlo1_500.png

LL

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:32 AM

Brilliant!
I didn't think they could be made to look even bigger pricks than they already did, but that succeeded!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:32 AM

Don's post explains how people of our generation worked hard, expected little and often received less.

My old man was a docker, mum was a seamstress in a factory, six children and never a policeman at our front door. We all did well in life, worked hard and never scrounged off the state. We had our morals and our pride. My wife and I still work, part-time these days as we still have bills to pay.

Sadly today the world revolves around youth, if you are over 40, you are a "wrinkly." I live in a semi detached house which is my own, I am surrounded by loafers of young people who don't work, live in rented houses owned by absentee landlords, all they seem to do all day is drink, fuck and throw their kids out on the street to get peace.

I have a couple of nieces who collect children to a selection of non-existent fathers, they told me openly that "the fucking government can keep us". One referred to the bastards wrecking London recently as, "fucking cool" and added "they are right to take what they want of these rich bastards" that is the attitude of the youth today.

So stop your slow violin playing and blaming everyone for their problems and where they live. Many of us got it tight growing up, but we didn't blame other people for it.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:37 AM

Worth Worth reading

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Musket
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:40 AM

Thanks for the levity. The loaves and fishes was rather ironic and I just sent it to a few mates.

Some of our regular contributors seem to think that this has something to do with how society is, and what a mess successive governments have made of it. Notwithstanding the 3,000 year old hieroglyphs translated many years ago that read something along the lines of "The youth of today, they will be the architects of the downfall of civilisation."

I could be wrong, I would love to be wrong but.. I am increasingly reading that those who normally whinge about their lot in life here on the BS threads seem to think these feral scum are somehow demonstrating so that middle and old aged musicians can share with them a better society for all at the end of it.

If so, I need a beer. If not, I'll have a beer anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:43 AM

BBC keep wittering on about Cameron authorising Water Cannon and Rubber Bullets to be used.
Sir Hugh Orde in an interview, clearly irritated by this, made it clear that Cameron wasn't in fact in a position to authorise *anything*. He said water cannon is in fact already available anyway, and if the police force think it appropriate they will use it. But due to the fast moving nature of the events water cannon would be useless in these particular circumstances.
BBC continuing to repeat the inaccuracies however.
He also slapped the BBC for repeatedly showing a burning building from three days ago as if to dramatise events, saying there are no building burnings now.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:46 AM

Maypole

And a few more...

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:50 AM

"At the risk of offending people on this thread with a little levity, some photo-shopped snaps of looters made me chuckle:"

I can't be offended by postings of anonymous GUESTS

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:52 AM

"He also slapped the BBC for repeatedly showing a burning building from three days ago as if to dramatise events, saying there are no building burnings now."

Yes, well, don't forget..."the News" nowadays has essentially 2 purposes:

1. to entertain (thus increasing the number of viewers who tune in)

2. to propagandize (thus moulding and shaping public consciousness in a desired fashion and direction)

Showing a burning building in downtown London assists greatly in achieving both those endeavours, so that's why they do it.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 11:59 AM

There is no such thing as "downtown London"

That burning building was in the Church Street area of Croydon, some 12-13 miles south of the centre of London.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 12:02 PM

Brilliant pics Spleen! Too many to remember but I particularly liked "Twister", "Step away from the space hopper" and "the busker"

LL

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Ringer
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 12:05 PM

"Ringer, if you don't understand relative poverty you are not well equipped to comment here."

I think, Richard Bridge, that if I had a chip on my shoulder as large as yours I'd be a leeetle less patronising. I also think that if I'd been accused of laxity in my use of English then I'd take extra care to say what I meant. Where were you talking about relative poverty?

"The English government has been told by the IMF to reduce its debt, a debt that was caused by bankers and financiers"

What nonsense, Good Soldier Schweik. The debt is owed by the government, not by bankers. Its cause was overspending by Gordon Brown. Even at the peak of the cycle he was running a deficit (but then, that didn't matter, did it, as he'd got rid of boom and bust? Oops!)

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 12:09 PM

"There is no such thing as "downtown London" "

I know what Little Hawk meant despite the geographic disparity, mind you I do speak both North American and British urbanese

Personally, bonzo3legs, I think you argue for the sake of arguing rather than from any useful stand point

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 12:33 PM

Just seen this. So, now the riots win. Great.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 12:57 PM

We have unemployment benefit, sickness benefit, reasonable pensions and a fairly good standard of living. Anyone who can afford £100 trainers and £300 for a smartphone can simply not complain about poverty - yet these are the thugs trying to wreck our town.

Poverty is what exists in third world countries. Poverty is what exists in the shanty towns of some Latin American countries, where the gap between rich and poor is enormous. It isn't so here.

What we do have at the moment is a wonderful community spirit - where Croydon residents came together yesterday morning from 10 a.m. to help clean up the streets. Where neighbours are keeping an eye out for other neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:01 PM

===Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MtheGM - PM
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:09 AM
What difference is that supposed to make, Richard? Please elucidate; I genuinely cannot fathom what point you think you are making in trying to establish the precise whereabouts of Lord Black's incarceration.

From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:33 AM
The UK system let him remain at large. ===
,.,.,.

He happens to be a Canadian citizen, Richard, & it was, rightly, the Canadian govmnt that prosecuted & imprisoned him. We have at present no jurisdiction over Murdoch either, but that doesn't make him immune to the laws of where he is; nor does he in any way claim it does.

I still don't get what point you are endeavouring to make ~~ but I don't believe you know either.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:01 PM

what is your objection to the rich paying their way?

We'd have no objection if that was in fact what they did. But they don't. They steal instead, and the richer they are the more they steal.

http://www.monbiot.com/2011/02/07/a-corporate-coup-detat/

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:02 PM

What nonsense, Good Soldier Schweik. The debt is owed by the government, not by bankers. Its cause was overspending by Gordon Brown. Even at the peak of the cycle he was running a deficit (but then, that didn't matter, did it, as he'd got rid of boom and bust? Oops!)
prove that statement, with facts and figures.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:28 PM

The UK has jurisdiction over acts committed here.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 01:42 PM

Police on Sky news admitted UK laws tie them up in knots.
Ringer, ignore Bridge, everyone does. He caused major problems on this forum about a month ago and got his knuckles rapped for it, seems he didn't learn.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:23 PM

Yes, Richard ~~ but the Hollinger fraud was not committed here ~~ nor, indeed, in Canada, but in the US: sorry I got that wrong. The point is that the UK govmnt had nothing to prosecute Black for & the US one did. & for all his wealth & influence he was not above the law; and neither ~ which is the whole point of this bit of discourse, & as he himself would admit ~ is Murdoch. All this goes back to the silly woman I was replying to who thought it was OK for yobbos to wreck our lives & cities because Rupert Murdoch has a lot of money. I fear the logic of this escapes me; but not, apparently, you, Richard. Perhaps you would care to expound. Tho I do take cognizance of Bluesman's cogent post just above...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:43 PM

GUEST,Bluesman, it's funny you should mention you like history, so do I, so I did a little trace back, and it seems to me your problem around Richard Bridge isn't a new one, dates back to 23-May-09 @ 06:36 PM after that you disappear for almost two years...intersting..I seem to recall that Richard and mudcat had a problem with an impersonator awhile back as did some other mudcat regulars

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:52 PM

Forget Cameron's pompous grandstanding about getting tough and water cannon and rubber bullets, is it time to send Jeremy Kyle in?
http://ph.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110810055607AAyc9sx

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 02:53 PM

Police on Sky news admitted UK laws tie them up in knots.

You mean Sky manipulated, edited and spun what they said until it looked like the fascist message they wanted.

In fact the police have been saying all along that the situation was intrinsically beyond what they were capable of handling with the resources they had. The law allowed them to take much more extreme measures - like water cannon - but they judged it wouldn't do any good.

It is VERY unfair to judge the ordinary coppers thrown into the front line of these disturbances as if they were the above-the-law elite hit squads who murdered Duggan and de Menezes, or the commanders above them with their sleazy links to Murdoch.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:38 PM

The media are now finally reporting what exactly is happening in the background of this terrible situation and took the plank out of their eye. They avoided it for a few days, but the elephant outgrew the room and they had to come out with it. The mindless violence of the past five days is nothing to what is about to happen, I don't wish to scaremonger, but it would appear the genie is well and truly out of the bottle.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 03:47 PM

"sleazy links to Murdoch. " Christ I have never read of much paranoia about one man in all my life, get help mate.

Murdoch gets blamed for every ill in the world today on this site. I bet he's the bastard shitting on my cabbages, and here was me blaming that ginger tom cat with the big stones who lives at number 11. Do you thing Murdoch likes lettuce ? They got a touch over the weekend too.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:01 PM

The trouble is, you need very good connections in order to rob your neighbours blind and get away with it legally - and with connections like that, even if you do get caught out, you'll get away with a slap on the hand.

It's a bit different for the small time villains who've been so much in the news these past days.

I see that it's estimated that the cost of the damage will add up to something like £100 million.   Terrible - but compared to what the bankers and their friends did to us all, that is pretty small beer.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:25 PM

Exactly so Mr McGrath, time the leaders of the financial institutions were introduced to Mdm Guillotine.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 04:29 PM

The playground name-calling, like the passed few days rioting, has gotten out of hand, unlike the rioting, there is an option here to close the thread....


you name callers really do need to Grow Up!!

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:48 PM

I'm enjoying the big pendulum swinging from one side of the political spectrum to the other.

Here's what I'm worried about: This is where people start (or indeed, are already) crying out for heavier police, and then complain in 5 years time about the instigation of a police state.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:48 PM

Not an innocent kid, but a notorious gang "elder."
The police have not said why they had to arrest him in a cab instead of at home in early morning.
It is suggested he was on his way to avenge the murder of his cousin, using a cab because his car was too well known.
A gun was found.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:51 PM

It's a little bit more complicated than that. In fact it appears that the looting has been done by people of all colours and ethnic origins.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 05:53 PM

Mark Duggan
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/mark-duggan-profile-tottenham-shooting

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:07 PM

""We'd have no objection if that was in fact what they did. But they don't.""

That's just plain bollocks.

Maggie Thatcher tried to move the country towards that, and David Cameron is inclined in that direction, but your kind stops it happening, and screams about private healthcare and private education whenever it is mentioned.

Who was it that yelled blue murder when David Cameron changed the child benefit system for people who cannot in their wildest dreams advance a case for needing it?

It was left wingers so short sighted that they insist that the very people they vilify must have every benefit whether they need it or not.

You say that you would not object if they paid their way, but they wouldn't do so.

How in hell's name can you know when you have prevented it from ever happening?........Educated guesswork is a damnfool substitute for rational thought and sensible trials.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:25 PM

""The debt is owed by the government, not by bankers. Its cause was overspending by Gordon Brown. Even at the peak of the cycle he was running a deficit (but then, that didn't matter, did it, as he'd got rid of boom and bust? Oops!)""

The last curbs on the bankers' activities were removed by Gordon the Prudent, and debt was encouraged. To pay for all the inadequate and ineffective "initiatives" with which New Labour tinkered around the edges of mounting problems, Gordon sold this country's gold reserves and squandered the money raised in short order.

Now, I'll admit that, in dire straits, I might sell off the family silver (if we had ever had any), but I sure as hell wouldn't sell it when silver was at its lowest price for thirty years, which was when he cashed in the nation's reserves.

And I certainly wouldn't spend it on contracting for aircraft carriers which will have no planes for eleven years, and similar halfwitted projects to which his successors have been contractually bound.

Let's face it, he cocked up ROYALLY and had he possessed the brain God gave a goose, and hung on to the gold, we would now be in a position to clear all our deficit by selling at the highest price for thirty years.

The collapse was outwith our control, the ability to float over it without effort was not. That WAS the responsibility of one man, GORDON (not so prudent) Brown.

So the above statement is essentially irrefutable.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:31 PM

""above-the-law elite hit squads who murdered Duggan""

I have as yet seen no evidence that Duggan was murdered, and certainly there has been no trial.

Still, Jack says it was murder, so that must be right.......mustn't it?

Judge and bloody Jury in total ignorance of any facts. I despair!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 06:43 PM

...in hell's name can you know when you have prevented it from ever happening?

When was there last in power a government that could be called liberal (small L!!!), let alone leftwing? Arguably back in the 1960s. Most of the people you are arguing with weren't even born then.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Songwronger
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:11 PM

I'm surprised the U.S. hasn't helped out with a few cruise missiles. We popped some over Libya when their civil unrest broke out. A few daisy cutters over Picadilly might calm things down.

But at least the Brits have retained the right to bear baseball bats. Shouldn't be necessary, with a monarch in charge. Why doesn't Elizabeth stroll through the mobs giving that limp wristed wave? That would bring people back to their senses.

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: gnu
Date: 10 Aug 11 - 07:33 PM

Cruise missiles in Britain? No! Surely not!

That's for the rich despots in foreign lands. To help the peoples of those lands rise up in protest against their oppressors.

Hmmmm....

Subject: RE: BS: London Riots
From: Max
Date: 11 Aug 11 - 01:50 AM

damn.

MiniFAQ (thinking out loud last night)

*we reserve the right to arbitrarily delete, alter and append any BS threads started by guests, and just so you know, most don't make it.

*personal attacks will be deleted

*remember these are living, loving, real human beings into traditional music, folk, blues, folklore, and lots of other awesome things just like you.

*Be aware that online community has an empathy deficiency and a greater degree of polarization. Be extra human.

*We really really dislike deleting things, more so when we're asked to, and reactive when demanded. Be prudent with your requests, don't make demands, compel us with a civil, if not delightful, reason.

*if you seek our counsel, listen to us. We've been doing this a long time, take this way to seriously, and are tenaciously thoughtful and protective of Folk and this community.

*mudcat is not a democracy, but compassionately impressionable.

*there are a couple topics that 15 years of our intensive and largely unpleasant research have been deemed impossible to allow. Disappointing, tragic even, but true. We make no promise of further explanation.

*we are people too. We are volunteers. We donate our time care for this place. Why? No, really, why do we do this?

*we are folk. this is the folk process. how do you want folk, the process, and your participation, thought-of and defined? Behave accordingly. We are not snooty, curmudgeonly, vitriolic, dogmatic know-it-alls. Or are we?