BS: Civil servants

Subject: Civil servants
From: Ferret
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 03:48 PM

Why is it that civil servants are call that when on the whole they are nether civil or servant?.

beat' me. all the best Ferret

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Wally Macnow
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 03:51 PM

How 'bout your postman, Ferret?

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: MMario
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 04:11 PM

*grump* NOT a good time for THIS particular question to come up; so if I am rude, sharp, or otherwise offensive, please remember that THIS particular "civil servant" has had one extremely nasty day, including a threatening phone call.

The "Civil" part comes from the same place as does the "civil" in "Civil Center" -- implying community. The "servant" part because primarily civil servants are in service positions or service occupations.

When the occupation happens to be one that is ALSO in the private sector, the pay tends to be less. [note: I CHOSE to go out of the private sector....though my salary is about 1/3 to 1/5 of what I could make in the private sector I also realize I would have to move to the city in order to make that. I refuse.--but occasionaly I wish I could make the bigger bucks] Civil service jobs tend to be hampared by lack of staff, ridiculous requirements and red tape. This alone makes for frustration and short tempers. AND civil servants have to deal with the public. frequently. constantly. endlessly.

All I can say is, if you haven't been there, don't complain until you have been. I was in service industries in the private sector for decades, and thought it was frustrating dealing with the general public then. Believe me, dealing with the public as a civil servant is 10 times worse. but I do have some job security.

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Chet W.
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 04:22 PM

I'm a civil servant. I'm a teacher. I just had a day that was pretty similar to MMario's. Please feel free to send your children anywhere else for a better shot at an education.

Chet

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 04:43 PM

Gee, Ferret, I think you may have offended a number of us here. I would like to suggest that you have made what one might call a "rash generalization." Civil servants are tough, though - they've been scapegoats all their careers, and they still keep trying to do a decent job.
There are people who do good work, and there are people who do not. There are civil servants who do good work, and there are those who do not. It is more difficult for employees of large entities to do quality work, because they have to overcome the restrictions of a large bureaucracy - but on the other hand, big organizations are needed to do big jobs.
On the whole, though, I think that if you make an honest comparison between government employees and employees of large corporations, you'll see their work is reasonably comparable.
I worked for the U.S. Government for 25 years as a fairly dedicated government employee, and for the last three frustrating years as a government contractor. As a public servant, I tried my best to serve the public. Since Bill Clinton "privatized" me three years ago and made me a government contractor, my primary responsibility is to serve the contract, not the public. I may serve the public as a byproduct of my efforts, but the emphasis of my job is now to fulfill the contract, whether it makes sense or not.
I think I have a right to be proud of the work I've done these last 28 years. Maybe I didn't do a perfect job as a government employee or contractor, but I did the best I could.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: MMario
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 04:58 PM

Thank you Joe for expressing in much better terms something I was trying to think....given today, I am not thinking much at all, merely reacting.

Ferret - I am not offended - irked, maybe. For anyone who has not experienced life as a "civil servant" it probably seems a logical question. And I KNOW there are days when some of my clients get splillover from others....but I am human too....(I think. Last time I checked)

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Dave Swan
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 05:16 PM

Hey Ferret,

It's an easy shot to take and it can play to a certain audience. So take your best one. I'm proud of the work I do and proud of others who choose the public sector. As others in this forum have pointed out, we're not getting fat feeding at the public trough. You deserve good service from your civil employees. If you don't get it, find a supervisor and lodge your complaint in writing. You might be surprised at how well this can work. It will certainly get better results than you've gotten here.

Dave Swan

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Banjer
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 07:54 PM

I think that Ferret may have encountered a situation not unlike one I found about two years ago. I had to get a tag for one of our vehicles at work. I called the tag office and informed the lady with whom I was put in touch with of the situation. This vehicle had been assembled from parts of three different vehicles. Two of which we owned and one which had been bought without title for parts only. She told what forms and paperwork I needed to bring to the office and how to go about getting a new title prepared. (the dash which contains the VIN belonged to the vehicle which was obtained for parts) I took all the neccessary things that she listed. When I arrived at the office I was sneered at and told that none of what I had was worth anything! I was informed "No one at this office would have told you such a thing" I then inquired as to what the telephone number of this office was, checked it against my notes and found them to be the same! After that I asked whose extension was #267 and found it to be that of the very person who first told me what to bring and then told me it was not good enough. Incidents like that do tend to leave a hollow place in my thoughts about civil servants. Allow me to add that those incidents are not at all common, and having two firemen in my family and having worked with various juvenile agencies over the years I do have a deep respect and admiration for their balanced efforts at caring for the public while at the same time being hogtied by red tape and beauracracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Ferret
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 09:29 PM

No offence meant guys/girls I had a grand mother who was a teacher for 40 years and my mother for 37. and on the whole I have not had a problem with teachers. I did work for British Rail so I do no what it is to deal with the public and to be in a large company and get blamed wen it's not your fault. But wen you take the UK's DSS and the local counsel, and put them together you get big trouble.

I had three years sick from a back injury at work and I had the DSS saying that I paid rent so see the counsel, I went to the counsel they said go to the DSS you pay lodging allowance and they pay that. I went to them who sent me back to the counsel etc etc etc .

It took three years countless visits and many letters phone calls [ some of which I was hung up on for trying to get the two of them to call ] and two M.P. just to get one pick up a phone and call the other. One phone call five minutes and it was sorted. This was the reason for the comment. [But IMHO in this case it is an oxymoron]

Dose any one else have any more oxymoron.

Sorry if any offence.

All the best Ferret

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 10:20 PM

In general: complete job security + advancement through seniority alone + lack of any connection between productivity and reward = malaise and a bad attitude. Sorry, as I realize this theory doesn't apply to Dave, MMario, Joe or Chet. But it is something I have witnessed, both as a government employee and in my dealings with several of them.

Alright, Ferret, scoot over and make me some room in that doghouse.

LEJ

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: campfire
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 11:03 PM

Whoa, boys - you got another "Civil Servant" here. I'm proud of my work, and yes, it does get frustrating to know that because I've been in my position for more than five years I won't ever get another "merit" raise. No matter HOW good a job I continue to do. And yes, it gets frustrating when a private contractor comes in, sees me "scooping poop" (I'm a Zookeeper) and asks if I really needed a college degree to do THAT. I asked him if he needed an engineering degree (which he has) to change lightbulbs (which is what he was doing when he asked). My ex-husband used to complain that I smelled like my charges when I got home from work. I work almost every weekend, and more than my share of Holidays. I can't remember the last Christmas Day I spent with my family. And we get picketed every now and then because the animal welfare people don't like to see animals in captivity. (Some of them wouldn't even be ALIVE if they were still "in the wild".) But the pleasures still outweigh the drawbacks, or I wouldn't be there any more. I enjoy the school groups - they are our future. I have a "knack" for finding lost children in a crowd almost before they have realized that they are lost - and I find myself doing that even when I'm not at work. Today I released a Canadian Goose that we fixed up after something almost "got her" - to cheers from a few onlookers as she swam away. So yes, you hit a sore spot. Everybody has bad days, but, when I'm in the public eye, I have a smile on my face no matter WHAT I feel like inside. Its part of the uniform.

I'm sorry if you've had bad experiences with "civil servants" - but I've had bad experiences with bank tellers and store clerks, too.

campfire

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 11:12 PM

Make room for a third, push over. Aside from what my other dog eared buddys were saying, I think the way some of the systems are set up are more at fault than those trying to work in it. Budget crunches press employees to hold back on giving what should be given out partly in fear because they've been told in no uncertain terms that we're not giving it up today. I'd say the worst example of a goverment agency gone amuck is the IRS. You have a failing system at best set up to be unapprochable & unaccountable to a fault & combine that with what seems to be the power of GOD, you put that in the hands of a kid that just got out of diapers & has never known power & you got the arm of Thor dropping it's hammer on the guilty, the innocent, the law abbiding, the newborn & the dead. This is not the fault of the civil servant, this is pure bad goverment policy. We have the Dept of Agriculture that once had 10,000 employees keeping 60,000 farms above water now we've got 60,000 employees sinking 10,000 farms, again this is not because of civil servants, though I can certainly understand why some of them would say what's the use, this is goverment feeding off it's self. Like in the private sector where employees move on or receive benifits or perks depending on performence, goverment agencys should be held to the same expections. Part of the difference I think lays in spineless politicians that are unable and/or unwilling to bring reform or change & the fact that in the private sector the CEO is 'usually' held responsible for it's failure & either their head rolls or those beneath them rolls in an attempt to create a better system unlike the public sector where there exists to much politics, heads can't roll as near as much & it's not their money to lose & they won't go out of business. This is not the servant's fault it's more the fault of those that they serve & answer to, which turns out to be both you & I in the long run. Now I'll have to find a dog house all to myself. Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Llanfair
Date: 27 Sep 99 - 11:22 PM

You certainly hit the spot there, ferret. I resigned last week from my job as a social worker, because of the utter futility of the work. We are harrassed to complete the paperwork and enter it all on computer, and at the end of it all, there is no money to provide any services. The department seems to think that it's ok, but I don't, so, as from the end of November, I'm unemployed.
At last I will be able to concentrate on getting myself in shape, and doing more music. I'll be poorer, but the quality of my life will improve dramatically. Hwyl, Bron.

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 12:13 AM

This thread is talking both of public servants and bureacracy. Yeah, I know, same, but different. I spent a lot of years under the hood of a car trying to get it to tell me what was wrong. Generally speaking, it did......but only after I asked it simple, basic questions. Denny and I tried to keep it simple and in the process fixed technically complex problems. In sales, I did the same thing. "If my product does "A" then you'll but it?"---"No, it also has to do "B" and "X""--"OK, if I can demonstrate A-B-X, what's a good day to start training?" --"Well, can it also do G, I can't use it unless it does "G"."---And on and on...It's called "Sharp Angle Hook Closing" and it is basic and simple and cuts to the chase...and works! I tried to teach my high school students to keep things simple....Okay Spaw...What's the point?

PATTERSON'S LAW: The easiest thing to do is to take a simple task and make it difficult.

And that is what is wrong with the entire civil service structure and a shitload of private corporations. Ask Dave Swan if it's OK to save a life. Well, sorta'...but only if you do the paperwork. As a teacher, I wanted to teach...not fill out endless paperwork....but it don't work that way do it? And the more paperwork, the more rules you need and the more people you need to create the new paperwork for the additional rules which generate additional staffing requirements from the additional paperwork which then......FFFUUUCCCKKK!!!!!!!!

I am convinced that if I gave someone a job as a "Button Pusher".....Push the green button every 15 minutes....within a month we'd have a manual on button pushing, a button pushing checklist, a button pushing alternate time chart, and 30 other useless forms that in the end render the job suited only for the "Highly Skilled and Trained."....And we'd wind up in a scenario such as the one Banj described.

The people in these positions aren't at fault, although they often increase their own workload through Patterson's Law and make it difficult for the frontline civil servant, like Dave, to do his job.

The reasons for all this are so numerous that books have indeed been written on the subject. For me, yeah, I get pissed, but I also have a lot of compassion for those secretarial bays where #267 sits doing the same shit all day......But I have a lot more compassion for the Daves and Chets and Joes who are stuck out there on the ends. And tell me Mario, as I know you are one who surely keeps your systems as simple as possible, don't your administrators keep trying to make it harder than it is and adding to the burden? I'm willing to bet they do.

There aren't any answers folks......just try to keep your BP down and your sense of humor up.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 01:23 AM

And, in that vein, I think this might be a good time to share this, which just came in my email; kind of an around the world synopsis of bureaucracy NOI:

UNDER PURE COMMUNISM
You have two cows. Your neighbours help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.

UNDER APPLIED COMMUNISM
You have 2 cows. You have to take care of them, but the government takes all the milk.

UNDER A DICTATORSHIP
You have 2 cows. The government takes both and shoots you.

UNDER SINGAPOREAN DEMOCRACY
You have 2 cows. The government fines you for illegally keeping 2 unlicensed farm animals in an apartment.

UNDER CAPITALISM
You have 2 cows. You sell one and buy a bull, which you use to breed, to the other cow. Then you create a great website and start offering to export sperm from the bull to anyone and everyone, especially emerging markets, over the Internet. After a few weeks, your company completes its IPO on NASDAQ, and a few brokerage firms start coverage with a strong buy rating for this wonderful new Internet stock. Your stock zooms from the $10/share IPO price to $110, declares a 3 for 1 split and runs back up to $110 when you sell. The stock plummets back to $2 a few months later when the dopes who bought it realize that your business has no earnings and never will, despite the Internet connection. Several law firms and the SEC bring various civil and criminal actions against the company, all of the officers and directors and you under various fraud theories. Your underwriter downgrades you to a market underperform. You quickly settle the civil cases so the lawyers get paid, but you still have plenty stashed away. You plead nolo in the SEC case, and you are sentenced to 10 years in prison, of which you actually serve 7 weeks. When you come out, you can't resist the temptation to buy 2 chickens.
Then...

UNDER HONG KONG CAPITALISM
You have 2 cows. You sell 3 of them to your publicly-listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you can get all 4 cows back, with a tax deduction for keeping 5 cows. The milk rights of 6 cows are then transferred via a Panamanian intermediary to a Cayman Islands company secretly owned by the majority shareholder, who sells the rights to all 7 cows milk back to the listed company and proceeds from the sales are deferred. The annual report says that the company owns 8 cows, with an option on 1 more. Meanwhile, you kill the 2 cows because of the bad feng shui.

UNDER TRUE DEMOCRACY
You have 2 cows. Your neighbours decide who gets the milk.

UNDER REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY
You have 2 cows. Your neighbours vote for someone to tell you who gets the milk

UNDER AMERICAN DEMOCRACY
The government promises to give you 2 cows if you vote for it. After the election, the president is impeached for speculating in cow futures. The press dubs the affair "Cowgate".

UNDER BRITISH DEMOCRACY
You have 2 cows. You feed them sheep's brains and they go mad. The government does nothing.

UNDER BUREAUCRACY
You have 2 cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. Then it pays you not to milk them. After that it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows.

UNDER FEMINISM
You have 2 cows. They get married and adopt a calf.

UNDER TOTALITARIANISM
You have 2 cows. The government takes them and denies they ever existed. Milk is banned.

UNDER POLITICAL CORRECTNESS
You are associated with (the concept of "ownership" is a symbol of the phallo-centric, war-mongerish, intolerant past) 2 differently-aged (but no less valuable to society) bovines of non-specified gender.

UNDER SURREALISM
You have 2 giraffes. The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 01:58 AM

Gigglekit, that is really funny: no matter what kind of system rules, yer focked, as Spaw would sputter. How about anarchy? You have two cows, somebody with a gun takes them and you have no cows? Or is that one of the other systems? And under any bureaucracy, you have two cows but you can't milk them until you fill out the proper forms, get them notarized, take them to the Dairy bureau for approval but the receptionist notices you don't have the proof that the cows need milking so you have to file for an appointment with an inspector who can squeeze you in the second week of January 2001... --seed

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 02:07 AM

My dear Seed, I think that an anarchy would be where you have two cows who run wild and milk you!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 07:55 AM

I think we're getting to the root of the problem - bureaucrats specifically, not civil servants in general. I used to be a civil servant - I worked in an Employment Exchange, then I moved to the other side of the counter. We in the Dept of Employment worked to hard-and-fast rules: either you were entitled to benefit, in which case the amount was calculated according to the rules; or you weren't. The rules were available for any member of the public to see, and, while they were long-winded and complex, you could follow them with patience and work out your benefit woth a pencil and paper. The real bad guys were/are in the Dept of Social Security - the DSS (or the SS, as some people like to call it). They have rules too, but they're secret - they really are! Many of them are discretionary, meaning that they can give or refuse without having to give any reason or explanation.

Oh blimey! It's been over thirty years since I fell foul of the SS, and I never realised how strongly I still feel about them! I'm gonna get back to translating les chansons before I get all serious again.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Allan C.
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 08:50 AM

And another Civil Servant checks in...

Amen, ibid, op cit and whatever to all that has been said. I work for the State at a college and have seen and experienced nearly all of the same things griped about in the above comments. Anyone who has gone through registration at any college on the planet knows what a headache it can be. Then, if you throw the admissions office any kind of curve - like not remembering the exact dates of when you last took any classes - the experience comes closer to becoming Satan's daydream.

That isn't to say that the staff here doesn't make every effort to smooth out some of the wrinkles in the process. Its just that there is so very much paperwork required by POLICY that the whole process remains difficult and cumbersome at best.

In the years I have been here, I have seen many potential students become quite vocal about their frustrations with the enrollment process. But I have NEVER seen any of them treated with anything less than the utmost courtesy - even when it would seem like just giving one of them a SMACK would be the most expedient thing to do. After all, the frustration is a two-way thing!

Virtually all of the offices here on campus, other than mine, are charged with some form or other of student processing or assisting or, ultimately, teaching.

I run the Copy Center here and have one of the few offices which is not directly involved with any of these functions. We deal directly with the staff and faculty. Yes, they bring in the things they need to have copies of for the students' files and handouts for the classes. But the Copy Center is viewed by many as more of a refuge from everything else that is happening out there. Frankly, sometimes people come in here just to get away.

My copy center is a haven. I love "Campfire"'s remark about the smile being part of the uniform. We greet everyone who comes through the door with a smile and a "hello" no matter what kind of day we are having. We keep a neat, clean place. We usually have some of the best folkmusic in the world playing in the background and the smell of fresh coffee fills the air. We offer "can-do" over-the-counter service for work to be done on the "big machine" and help the mechanically challenged to clear the jams in the self-service copier without making them feel like idiots. It is a pleasant place to come to. Ya'll drop by now, hear?

I feel truly blessed to be somewhat removed from the frustration experienced by most of the other people who work at the college. (Not that this job is totally without frustrations!) All of us under this roof are underpaid, and overworked. We are told, year after year, that we have to do even more - with less funding and less staffing. - Damned right it gets frustrating! But I guarantee that at least in THIS office, our "customers" will never feel the repercussions of that frustration. Smiles-R-Us. (Or, sometimes its more like Repression-R-Us; but I just go home at the end of the day and plink out a few songs on the guitar and all is well.)

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: MMario
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 09:32 AM

'Spaw speaks truth -- administration keeps trying to make the simple complex. And while I DO slip from time to time, I try and keep a cheerful helpful attitude while dealing with the customers-- though sometimes I put someone on hold and spend a few minutes cursing in order to do so!

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: folk1234
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 09:49 AM

Well it started way back when growing up in the Public Housing Projects of Chicago while we were fed and clothed by the Public Welfare system. Then came Public Service as a U.S. Marine, including 4 years of college and 2 years of grad school. Then came Corporate (Publicly Funded) employment the Defense-Industrial Complex. Now it is a State (Public) University on an Federal (Publicly-funded) engineering outreach program grant. Someday soon it will be retirement compliments of the Marine Corps, Defense Industry, State University, and Social Security. I guess I've always been (and always will be) at the trough, but somehow it has been fun, challenging, and extrememly personally rewarding. Like others though, I'm am frequently frustrated when dealing with 'the bureaucracy'.

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Pete Peterson
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 12:30 PM

Robert A Heinlein (it figures) said something like "in any bureaucracy, civil servant is equated semantically to civil MASTER" Really appreciate the comments about how most of the workers really are doing their best under extreme pressure (I agreee) but that the administrators make it more complex until it is impossible to follow all of the rules, and they are discretionary! Not just civil service-- have been trying to straighten out my American Express bill for three weeks now and it just keeps getting more complicated. The 1-800 system never lets you talk to the same person twice. Generalization: a) everybody I have ever talked to has been courteous and helpful b) it still isn't fixed and keeps getting worse. MMario and everybody else-- thanks for doing your best all these years. PETE

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: GeorgeH
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 01:11 PM

Whoever said "complete job security + advancement through seniority alone + lack of any connection between productivity and reward" as a description of a job in the Civil Service is many, many, many years out of date . .

And why is it that an ever-increasing number of my friends are EX-teachers?? And MUCH happier for being so?

G.

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: annamill
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 02:44 PM

You are not going to beleive what just happened to me. I had to mail an overnight express mail letter and I just ran over to the post office. Now, I have the greatest respect for mailmen, umm..excuse me mailpersons, but th people who work in the office are completely without motivation. I stood in line for a good 20 minutes while I watched two, than three people working at windows just fumble around tidying up their little cublcles, talk to each other, generally ignoring the 20 some odd peple waiting on line. When they were done, they deigned to call one of us over off the line.

To make everything even worse, the lady behind me was HUMMING. I couldn't wait to get back to Mudcat. Grrr...

Love, annap

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Peter T.
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 03:30 PM

I can't believe I am going to write in favour of bureaucracy, but here goes. Actually, first, let me say that "public service" are two of the best words in the English language.

O.K. Max Weber defines bureaucracy as "neutral service", which means that it is organised around 3 principles: (1) no family, friend, or personal favours, i.e. corruption; (2) consistency of response (no arbitrariness); (3) serving large numbers of people efficiently. To ensure these principles, especially consistency, there needs to be a history of what decisions were made in the past (paperwork), a set of rules and judgements so that exceptions, if any, are minimized or explained (paper) because theyare the new precedents (paper), and recourse if anything goes wrong or needs to be challenged (paper). Anyone who has lived in a country with a corrupt or non-functioning bureaucracy can hardly wait to leave. Western bureaucracy is a mildly unsettling dream: other bureaucracies are hideous nightmares.
The problems that people have with bureaucracies often stem from a desire to be treated personally, to make exceptions, and so on. This sometimes helps -- the grease in the machine, or simple human intelligence thwarting crazy rationalities -- but much of it is just grousing about the harsh reality that there are too many people on this planet (ecology!!) who want personal recognition that a bureaucracy by definition is designed not to give.
I can't believe I just wrote that, having spent 4 hours trying to get a student recognised by the university computer system, but, grimly, it is true.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: annamill
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 03:53 PM

3)serving large numbers of people efficiently.

EFFICIENTLY is the word.

I didn't want personal attention, just some attention! I wasn't being treated differently, nor, did I want to be. I just wanted them to wait on somebody! Any body! I don't care who. Just make the line smaller. Very frustrating. Does bureaucracy train them to be this way?? Maybe it's just NY. My hometown post office isn't like this. Very friendly and alway taking care of business. No wasted time. I find it very pleasant.

...And, the lady behind me kept humming.

Sorry, Peter and everyone else. I'm just a little frustrated.

love, annap

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Ferret
Date: 28 Sep 99 - 08:20 PM

LEJ/barry, etc. Looks lick we will have to apply for planing permission for an extension to the dog house, and apply for a bar license fill in a form in triplicate file it lose it re-cycle it, and press button 'B'.

Kat : that was grate thanks

But if it was not for all that paper work we all have to live with all those trees. [Nice] I thought the P.C. was meant to bring in the paper less office ??

All the best ferret

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Allan C.
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 07:32 AM

Well, Anna, at least now you have another definition for the "What is a Hummer" thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Mudjack
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 09:49 AM

Every time I look at my pay stub and see the amount deducted for employment tax, I'm reminded how we "ALL are CIVIL SERVANTS".
Mudjack, just another sap who pays the tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 10:17 AM

I have a friend who once worked at the local zoo, which was run by the Municipal government.It was a small zoo, but it did have a few neat things, including a lovely female Burmese Rock Python...she took long lunches (hours, sometimes) and slept on the job a lot and squeezed a lot of city workers when they tried to move her.

her name? Sybil....get it?...yep..Sybil Serpent

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Ferret
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 10:58 AM

GROAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN

ferret

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Roger the skiffler
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 11:14 AM

In my first full-time job I was in local government and went to serve one ever-awkward punter(er, I mean client, customer, whatever) who said, "No, I want the nice young man", pointing to one of my colleagues. A salutary lesson, and I hope I've mellowed with the years. Now I'm in academe and haven't bitten a student for weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: Larry B.
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 12:16 PM

I, too, am a civil servant; bureaucracy can be a pain in the neck (or whatever part of your anatomy bumps into its adamantine constraints), but at least it's usually possible to find the person with authority to move those restraints. When exceptional cases come up, you just determine what needs to be done, find out who can do it, and make it happen. I have been blessed several times with new situations where I got to make up the rules as I went along. While I have seen some "empire builders" as exemplified by the "button pusher" scenario, most of us try to keep the rules legal, ethical and simple.

LB

Subject: RE: BS: Civil servants
From: gint
Date: 29 Sep 99 - 03:26 PM

As Woody Woodberry 60's American humourist said

we are going to rename Civil Servants, Vanguard (after the Rocket?) because we can't make it work and we can't fire it.

I have great respect for civil servants especially now as our tax returns are due

grovel, grovel...