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BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier

Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM
gnu 11 Oct 11 - 03:58 PM
katlaughing 11 Oct 11 - 04:29 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Oct 11 - 04:39 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Oct 11 - 04:45 PM
gnu 11 Oct 11 - 04:46 PM
BTNG 11 Oct 11 - 05:00 PM
Jean(eanjay) 11 Oct 11 - 05:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Oct 11 - 05:04 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Oct 11 - 05:14 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 11 Oct 11 - 05:24 PM
Jean(eanjay) 11 Oct 11 - 05:34 PM
BTNG 11 Oct 11 - 05:50 PM
gnu 11 Oct 11 - 07:06 PM
Jean(eanjay) 11 Oct 11 - 07:51 PM
BTNG 11 Oct 11 - 07:57 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Oct 11 - 10:16 PM
BTNG 11 Oct 11 - 10:31 PM
katlaughing 11 Oct 11 - 11:34 PM
artbrooks 11 Oct 11 - 11:36 PM
Joe Offer 12 Oct 11 - 02:41 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Oct 11 - 03:21 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Oct 11 - 03:23 AM
Jean(eanjay) 12 Oct 11 - 04:52 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Oct 11 - 05:36 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 12 Oct 11 - 05:53 AM
Stilly River Sage 12 Oct 11 - 10:48 AM
Ed T 12 Oct 11 - 11:37 AM
Greg F. 12 Oct 11 - 12:49 PM
gnu 12 Oct 11 - 03:03 PM
Greg F. 12 Oct 11 - 04:40 PM
gnu 12 Oct 11 - 05:03 PM
Greg F. 12 Oct 11 - 05:12 PM
BTNG 12 Oct 11 - 05:41 PM
Ed T 12 Oct 11 - 05:47 PM
gnu 12 Oct 11 - 07:06 PM
Ed T 12 Oct 11 - 07:21 PM
Mayet 13 Oct 11 - 09:35 AM
Greg F. 13 Oct 11 - 09:47 AM
Ed T 13 Oct 11 - 12:51 PM
Greg F. 13 Oct 11 - 02:09 PM
gnu 13 Oct 11 - 02:38 PM
artbrooks 13 Oct 11 - 02:55 PM
Ed T 13 Oct 11 - 03:49 PM
Ed T 13 Oct 11 - 03:51 PM
Greg F. 13 Oct 11 - 06:36 PM
gnu 13 Oct 11 - 07:05 PM
Greg F. 13 Oct 11 - 08:17 PM
Jean(eanjay) 13 Oct 11 - 08:54 PM
Sawzaw 13 Oct 11 - 11:30 PM
BTNG 14 Oct 11 - 12:46 AM
Ed T 14 Oct 11 - 07:43 AM
gnu 14 Oct 11 - 02:38 PM
Greg F. 14 Oct 11 - 06:01 PM
gnu 14 Oct 11 - 06:24 PM
Greg F. 14 Oct 11 - 06:38 PM
gnu 14 Oct 11 - 06:47 PM
Jean(eanjay) 14 Oct 11 - 07:04 PM
Greg F. 14 Oct 11 - 08:14 PM
ollaimh 14 Oct 11 - 09:56 PM
Ed T 15 Oct 11 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 15 Oct 11 - 09:05 AM
Ed T 15 Oct 11 - 09:32 AM
BTNG 15 Oct 11 - 03:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Oct 11 - 03:41 PM
BTNG 15 Oct 11 - 03:46 PM
GUEST 15 Oct 11 - 04:03 PM
Ed T 15 Oct 11 - 04:08 PM
BTNG 15 Oct 11 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,Jon 15 Oct 11 - 05:15 PM
Ed T 15 Oct 11 - 06:37 PM
GUEST,Jon 15 Oct 11 - 06:59 PM
BTNG 15 Oct 11 - 07:04 PM
Ed T 15 Oct 11 - 09:26 PM
GUEST,Jon 15 Oct 11 - 09:31 PM
Ed T 15 Oct 11 - 09:43 PM
GUEST,Jon 15 Oct 11 - 09:51 PM
Ed T 16 Oct 11 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,Jon 16 Oct 11 - 10:50 AM
ollaimh 17 Oct 11 - 10:11 PM
Ed T 18 Oct 11 - 09:20 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 19 Oct 11 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 19 Oct 11 - 04:41 PM
katlaughing 19 Oct 11 - 07:57 PM
Sawzaw 19 Oct 11 - 11:36 PM
Greg F. 20 Oct 11 - 08:40 AM
BTNG 20 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM
Greg F. 20 Oct 11 - 12:58 PM
Sawzaw 20 Oct 11 - 01:14 PM
Greg F. 20 Oct 11 - 01:28 PM
BTNG 20 Oct 11 - 01:28 PM
Greg F. 20 Oct 11 - 03:24 PM
Sawzaw 21 Oct 11 - 12:41 PM
BTNG 21 Oct 11 - 12:45 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 25 Oct 11 - 06:18 AM
ollaimh 25 Oct 11 - 10:15 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 02 Nov 11 - 02:34 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 Nov 11 - 05:17 AM
Jean(eanjay) 03 Nov 11 - 06:13 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 Nov 11 - 06:16 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 03 Nov 11 - 06:44 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 Nov 11 - 07:13 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 Nov 11 - 07:27 AM
Jean(eanjay) 03 Nov 11 - 07:30 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 03 Nov 11 - 09:38 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Nov 11 - 03:45 AM
GUEST 10 Nov 11 - 09:57 AM
Lizzie Cornish 1 10 Nov 11 - 02:14 PM
Lizzie Cornish 1 14 Nov 11 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 04 Dec 11 - 04:42 PM
gnu 04 Dec 11 - 09:10 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 05 Dec 11 - 06:58 AM
Jean(eanjay) 05 Dec 11 - 08:19 AM
gnu 05 Dec 11 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 05 Dec 11 - 09:08 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 06 Dec 11 - 04:48 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 06 Dec 11 - 05:01 AM
Jeri 06 Dec 11 - 09:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Dec 11 - 10:42 AM
gnu 06 Dec 11 - 08:32 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 07 Dec 11 - 05:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Dec 11 - 06:11 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 07 Dec 11 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 07 Dec 11 - 02:59 PM
Jean(eanjay) 07 Dec 11 - 04:51 PM
gnu 07 Dec 11 - 05:00 PM
Ed T 07 Dec 11 - 05:26 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Dec 11 - 06:30 PM
gnu 07 Dec 11 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 07 Dec 11 - 07:46 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 07 Dec 11 - 07:50 PM
Ed T 07 Dec 11 - 07:57 PM
Ed T 07 Dec 11 - 08:06 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 07 Dec 11 - 08:13 PM
Ed T 07 Dec 11 - 09:23 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Dec 11 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 08 Dec 11 - 03:34 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Dec 11 - 04:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Dec 11 - 04:43 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 08 Dec 11 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 08 Dec 11 - 08:10 AM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 08:47 AM
Mayet 08 Dec 11 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 08 Dec 11 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Dec 11 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,999 08 Dec 11 - 09:03 AM
Mayet 08 Dec 11 - 09:18 AM
Jeri 08 Dec 11 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 08 Dec 11 - 09:26 AM
Mayet 08 Dec 11 - 09:31 AM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Dec 11 - 09:45 AM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 09:46 AM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 09:47 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Dec 11 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,999 08 Dec 11 - 10:37 AM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Dec 11 - 10:58 AM
Jeri 08 Dec 11 - 11:16 AM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 11:33 AM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Dec 11 - 11:43 AM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,Jon 08 Dec 11 - 12:03 PM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 12:17 PM
GUEST,Jon 08 Dec 11 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,Jon 08 Dec 11 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Jon 08 Dec 11 - 12:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Dec 11 - 12:40 PM
Stilly River Sage 08 Dec 11 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 08 Dec 11 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 08 Dec 11 - 01:50 PM
gnu 08 Dec 11 - 02:17 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Dec 11 - 03:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Dec 11 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 08 Dec 11 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 08 Dec 11 - 03:22 PM
gnu 08 Dec 11 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 08 Dec 11 - 04:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Dec 11 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 08 Dec 11 - 05:21 PM
Stilly River Sage 08 Dec 11 - 05:31 PM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 05:33 PM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 05:35 PM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 05:58 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 08 Dec 11 - 06:02 PM
gnu 08 Dec 11 - 06:17 PM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 06:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Dec 11 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,999 08 Dec 11 - 07:36 PM
gnu 08 Dec 11 - 07:41 PM
Ed T 08 Dec 11 - 09:01 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 08 Dec 11 - 09:48 PM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 09 Dec 11 - 04:51 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 09 Dec 11 - 05:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Dec 11 - 05:30 AM
GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 09 Dec 11 - 05:41 AM
GUEST,Bluesman 09 Dec 11 - 06:11 AM

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Subject: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM

This is taken from Facebook...please, PLEASE sign the petition which is going to The White House.

"This is a White House website generated "We the People" petition, created by the Leonard Peltier Defense Offense Committee - when we reach the goal of 5000 signatures by the October 22nd deadline, President Obama himself will review the petition.

Help win freedom for Untied States political prisoner - Native American human rights, activist Leonard Peltier. Wrongfully convicted and imprisoned for 35 years.

This petition is different to any other you may have signed in the past and it is absolutely vital that we reach our goal. We need only 920 more signatures and only have a very short time remaining to reach that goal. You can help, your family and friends can help in just a matter of minutes. You do not have to go anywhere to be a part of this event. Just stay right there at your computer!

We know how many Leonard Peltier supporters there are - so we should not have a problem reaching our goal. Unfortunately the response has been relatively slow so far considering how many of you supporters are out there.

Please take just a few minutes RIGHT NOW - do not delay - it is a very simple process to complete this petition. Just follow the link directly below. I have included instructions for the petition at the bottom of this page.

White House Petition to Grant Clemency for Leonard Peltier


PLEASE SHARE THIS TO YOUR WALL, YOUR FRIENDS WALLS & INVITE AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU CAN. THIS IS A MOST URGENT MATTER!!

Instructions:

!. Follow the above link to the "We the People" petition page on the White House website.
2. Go to the "Create an Account" button.
3. Fill out your name, email (city & zip are optional) and fill in CAPTCHA box.
4. Go to your email account as you included in the registration process (you may need to check your junk mail depending on your email settings).
5. Open the email from the White House site and right click your mouse over the link they send to you & "copy".
6. "Paste" the link into your address bar at the top of your browser. (this will take you back to the petition page)
7. Click on the "sign petition" button.
8. You can then refresh the petition page to see your name added to the petition. Know you have now contributed to something very important.
9. To have other people sign the petition from the same computer, you will need to "sign out" at the bottom of the petition page before you can continue with a new signature.

To know more about political prisoner Leonard Peltier go to the official Leonard Peltier Defense Offense Committee website:
www.whoisleonardpeltier.info


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 03:58 PM

Or google.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 04:29 PM

Peter, please cite your sources. This is a very emotional, volatile issue, one I have followed for years. Just refuting what Lizzie has posted is not creditable without solid cites, imo.

Thanks, Lizzie. I will be signing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 04:39 PM

Thanks, kat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 04:45 PM

Leonard Peltier's Lawyer speaking about the Solitary Confiment

Former Prison Guard, Bruce Smith, who knew Leonard for 20 years in prison


"...The Prosecuting Attornies now admit they cannot prove that Peltier actually committed the crime...." (taken from the link above)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 04:46 PM

kat... google it and read it all for yourSELF. It's in the PUBLIC record. No need to supply "sources" for sommat you can easily find from THE sources. Just type his name into a search engine. He was a baaaad dude and he got off light... according to the SOURCES.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: BTNG
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:00 PM

Numerous doubts have been raised over Peltier's guilt and the fairness of his trial, based on allegations and inconsistencies regarding the FBI and prosecution's handling of this case:

    FBI radio intercepts indicated that the two FBI agents had been pursuing a red pickup truck; this was confirmed by the FBI the day after the shootout. Red pickup trucks near the reservation were stopped for weeks, but Leonard Peltier did not drive a red pickup truck. Evidence was given that Peltier was driving a suburban vehicle, sometimes known as a stationwagon or panelvan, a large sedan with an enclosed rear section, able to be accessed from inside the front of the vehicle, by climbing over the seats, or by opening the door or hatch at the rear. Peltier's vehicle was red with a white roof; not a red, open-tray pickup truck with no white paint. The FBI agents' radio message said that the suspect they were pursuing was driving a red pickup truck, with no additional details. At Peltier's trial, the FBI testified that it had been searching for a red and white van, which Peltier was sometimes seen driving. This was a highly contentious matter of evidence in the trials.

Source

    Unlike the juries in similar prosecutions against AIM leaders at the time, the Fargo jury were not allowed to hear about other cases in which the FBI had been rebuked for tampering with evidence and witnesses.

    An FBI ballistics expert testimony during the trial asserted that a shell case found near the dead agents' bodies matched the rifle tied to Peltier. He said that a forensics test of the firing pin, which would have more definitively matched the gun to the cartridge case, was not performed because the gun was damaged in the fire. A less definitive test indicated that the extractor marks on the case and rifle matched.

    Years later, after an FOIA request, the FBI ballistics expert's records were examined. His report said that he had performed a ballistics test of the firing pin and concluded that the cartridge case from the scene of the crime did not come from the rifle tied to Peltier. That evidence was withheld from the jury during the trial

Source: as above

Though the FBI's investigation indicated that an AR-15 was used to kill the agents, several different AR-15s were in the area at the time of the shootout. Also, no other cartridge cases or evidence about them were offered by the prosecutor's office, although other bullets were fired at the crime scene. During the trial, all the bullets and bullet fragments found at the scene were provided as evidence and detailed by Cortland Cunningham, FBI Firearms expert, in testimony.

(Ref US v Leonard Peltier Vol 9).

At the conclusion of Peltier's trial, the prosecutor closed his argument saying, "We proved that he went down to the bodies and executed those two young men at point blank range." However, at the appellate hearing, the government attorney conceded, "We had a murder. We had numerous shooters. We do not know who specifically fired what killing shots...We do not know who shot the agents

(Ref US v Leonard Peltier Vol 9).

The Pennsylvania Parole Commission, which presides over the Lewisburg prison where Peltier was held, denied Peltier parole in 1993 based on their finding that he "participated in the premeditated and cold blooded execution of those two officers." But, the Parole Commission has since stated that it "recognizes that the prosecution has conceded the lack of any direct evidence that [Peltier] personally participated in the executions of the two FBI agents

Source


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:04 PM

Lizzie, you already know that I have signed. The conditions he is being kept in/care he receives for his medical condition are dreadful. He has suffered for 36 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:04 PM

The Peltier trial-
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/peltier/peletieraccount.html
(Or google Leonard Peletier Trial)

Peltier should have been executed for his brutal killings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:14 PM

Yes, thank you, Jean for signing. :0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:24 PM

Interesting....

John Trudell talking about the FBI's roll in this...


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:34 PM

don't believe all you read on Farcebook

I don't think that any of us signing here have relied totally on Facebook to decide that there are grave doubts about his guilt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: BTNG
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:50 PM

First of all, I trust nothing I read on Outer Space Book

Secondly, It's interesting to note that by Douglas O. Linder the author of The Famous Trials website that Q references uses documents whose accuracy of events has been called into question, including at least two that I have cited....and a single source does not constitute a safe verdict on the events...so, like Mr. GUEST,Peter Laban I would suggest the Q's piece is an opinion rather than a statement of the facts and I think we know what they both think.

Thank You M'Lud


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 07:06 PM

There IS a single source... the court(s) that convicted him and continue(d) to uphold the verdict(s).

Petitions for freedom rather than due process? What a load of horseshit. I thought we were beyond mob rule... HUNDREDS of years ago? Isn't that EXACTLY WHY we have a justice system? What's next?... lynchings?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 07:51 PM

Courts do and have made mistakes; there are many cases of miscarriages of justice. I don't think signing a petition can be classed as mob rule and I don't think we are all about to go out and lynch someone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: BTNG
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 07:57 PM

.....and some of the evidence in highly suspect in many people's eyes, learned people at that, and yes, as eanjay says, mistakes have been known to have been committed by many judiciary systems

Once more I state, these are opinion pieces not statements of fact, though the authors may differ with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:16 PM

Peletier was granted a full hearing in 2009 before the U. S. Parole Commission following which his parole request was denied. His next scheduled hearing is in 2024- much too soon.

Parole was abolished for federal convicts in 1987, but Peletier remains eligible because he was convicted before then.

Blake Nicholson, Associated Press, August 21, 2009. Reported in Newsday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: BTNG
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 10:31 PM

we know your opinion Q..no idea why you're continuing to bang on about it. I've simply presented statements and paperwork, I'm taking neither one side nor the other in this matter


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 11:34 PM

Thank you, SRS! Have read several of those over the years. It is good of you to have posted so many sources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 11:36 PM

Personally, I'm not willing to say that he was framed simply because the FBI (oh, horrors) was involved. The original appeal decision, which the Supreme Court declined to review, covers the case, including all of the allegations of FBI malfeasance, pretty thoroughly. And yes, I realize this citation is located on an anti-Peltier website, but it is still the court decision text.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 02:41 AM

The freeing of Leonard Peltier is a long-time liberal cause, so old that it doesn't garner much attention anymore. The Wikipedia article, if it is to be believed, sounds quite credible in defense of Peltier - but the conviction has gone through the normal cycle of appeals and has been upheld.

Still, the doubt exits. Was Peltier convicted for actually committing a murder, or was it for political reasons?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:21 AM

I wasn't expecting the hatred that's been shown on here by some folks. It's quite upset me to be honest, although the far more positive views have helped to balance it out.

This man has served over 36 years. THIRTY SIX YEARS. And they are still treating him so inhumanely.

As eanjay states above, there have been *many* miscarriages of justice over time. I think though that his is the very worst I've ever come to know about.

I would say it's filled with racism and hatred against the AIM and against all American Indians, who, for so very long have been treated like shite in their own country.

Were this happening in another land...as it now is in Brazil, to a lesser extent though, then many Americans would be up in arms about it.   

Sadly, it seems they refuse to see their own Indigenous People in the same light. They refuse to stand up, as a country, and admit that what has happened to the American Indians has been beyond belief, beyond comprehension...and it is STILL going on today.

Obama is making some headway, but nowhere near fast enough and that in itself is insulting.

America, in my opnion, will never be a civlised nation until it has an American Indian President, with American Indians serving in high numbers within Government.

To this day, so many of them live in squalor on reservations, forgotten, shoved into the wilderness....derided, verbally abused..grossly high unemployment, horrendouly high suicide rate etc...

Leonard Peltier, in my opinion, is purely the most major victim of racism against his People...and that bastards who've done this to him will get their comeuppence, either in this life, or the next.

I think the American Justice System is archaic and appalling. The American People should be out on the streets about it, because it is filled with racist bastards who have been given a freehand to behave however they want, twisting and spinning to their own ends, whilst feeding their fat white faces with the enjoyment of seeing yet another 'black' or 'indian' go down....

I do not understand....

It would not happen in my country because over here we at least have the guts to say "Yes, we were wrong" and deal with each case appropriately...but over in the USA this doesn't seem to happen.

It is barbaric.

And they dare to highlight the treatment of people in the Middle East, when in their own country they lock people up for near on 40 years, treat them appallingly throughout that time, or murder innocent black men, despite the world standing up and saying "NO!!!!!"

The American Justice System is rotten to the core...absolutely rotten...


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:23 AM

"The American Justice System is rotten to the core...absolutely rotten.."

And so is the FBI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 04:52 AM

I believe there has been a serious miscarriage of justice in Leonard Peltier's case ..... but irrespective of whether he is innocent or guilty people should be up in arms about the treatment he receives - it is a disgrace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:36 AM

FBI war against the AIM


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:53 AM

EXCELLENT video, from a man who cares deeply and for whom I have a great deal of respect.

This is a REAL eye opener!!

Russell Means talking about Leonard Peltier and the USA justice system


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 10:48 AM

Vine Deloria, Jr Custer Died for Your Sins: An Indian Manifesto is good reading about now.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 11:37 AM

There is indeed injustice and prejudice against aboriginal peoples in many societies.

This person sems to face very poor conditions in prison. This should stop, with this person and others.

Some police agencies and individual policemenfrequently use unlawful processes against those they feel are guoilty of an offense. If you disrespet them, it gets worse.

Killing of any enforcement officer is taken seriously by the police and the courts.

Those suspected of political offenses face an additional burden with police agencies, and the courts.

There may be different levels of justice in different locals and times. But, once a person is found guilty, it is an uphill battle to reverse that decision.

There seems to be strong opinions on both sides of the issue, right or wrong.

Now that all those side factors are out of the way, was justice done? I don't know. But, IMO, one should focus on the evidence of guilt or innocence, not all the social and other side issues to get support.

Persdonally, I don't feel petitions are of much use. But< I do not sign any of em without being sure of the validity what I am signing. And< I do not know enough to know that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 12:49 PM

There IS a single source... the court(s) that convicted him and continue(d) to uphold the verdict(s).

Umm - take that up with the list of innocent folks killed by the Texas court system, why dontcha?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 03:03 PM

The system isn't perfect but the system exists, thank goodness.

Open the doors and let all the prisoners out? Good plan? I'll stick with the system.

BTW, have any of you signed/started a petition for better treatment of inmates? Anyone actively, in ANY way, lobbying governments to improve the judical and penal systems?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 04:40 PM

unholders of the law

You betcha- it WAS the UNHOLDERS of the law that railroaded & imprisoned him. Got that in one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:03 PM

Greg... apparently a goodly number of lawyers AND justices of the US court systemssss disagree with you.

In any case, I said my piece. gnightgnu.

Oh, as usual, take this opportunity to slag me off and try to get me to post again by posting inane shit about me. I aim that statement at nobody in particular as there are more than a few who will likely do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:12 PM

I know they do, Gnu, but they also claim that Bruce Edwards Ivins was the perp. in the Anthrax Letters business, with no real proof whatsoever. I could cite you plenty of other examples, as well.

Its known as "Covering Your Ass After You Screw Up".

Sorry to disappoint in the slagging-off-and-inane-shit department. I suppose I could try, tho, if you wish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: BTNG
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:41 PM

The law is not infallible, the law is not beyond making mistakes, and those that believe otherwise take naivety to a whole new level, Unfortunately society is full of such people and that makes certain elements of society very dangerous indeed. To put it simply and in words that are perfectly understandable, this is what is called the lynch-mob mentality. Never mind that there might be mistakes being made (ask Timothy Evans and Derek Bentley about that one), hang the SOB regardless, we (the mob) believe him/her to be guilty, so there he/she must die. One day that mentality will turn around and bite the mob on its fat, self-satisfied, sanctimonious, self-righteous arse, and then where will we be...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 05:47 PM

gnu , Here you go....you miseable pile of bat droppings!

Wish come true:)

I know you did not go to bed this early, and are really stealthy watching this post, for examples of personal abuse:)

BTW, in your humble defense, (or is it offense?) just because we all have somewhat different perspectives in many areas, that is no reason to call you a worthless fart wind :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:06 PM

Yeah, fuck you too buddy. >;-) Your post on the "other" thread made me do that. It's YOUR fault. Ya deserve it ya scum bag. As for being a monitor of this thread, at least I am not a brainless lizard.

Makes no sense you say? Why, it's appropraiate I should think given the drivel so far.

Yes, why do you ask? I should have thought you would have understood as much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:21 PM

Good "come back", Gnu.
Leaping lizards:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Mayet
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 09:35 AM

As Joe Offer observes this is "a long-time liberal cause" not a recent 'bandwagon'.

Unlike the OP and some others, the information available outside the 'normal cycle of appeals' fails to convince me of Peltier's
innocence and an undeniably flawed trial doesn't necessarily equate with lack of guilt either any more than exercising critical thought, sceptism about professional public relations and lobbyists campaigns and entertaining reasonable doubt makes me a 'right winger'.

Perhaps the most damning testimony I've read was that of former AIM activist KaMook Nicols then wife of AIM leader Dennis Banks.

During the trial of Arlo Looking Cloud for the execution style murder of Annie Mae Pictou-Aquash (considered the highest-ranking woman in AIM who was close to Leonard Peltier but in the increasing paranoia within the organization suspected of working for the FBI) Nicols claimed that Peltier had bragged to her and Annie Mae Pictou-Aquash about shooting both agents at close range although chillingly, he claimed one was begging for his life.
trial transcript

Although Nicols has been accused of accepting money from the FBI for her testimony Paul DeMain has also reported that he had met with several people who said they had heard Leonard Peltier in 1975 confess to the shootings of the two FBI agents at the Pine Ridge Reservation and that
"As editor of News From Indian Country, I stand by our credible and trusted sources, and my present belief, that the primary motive for the murder of Annie Mae Pictou-Aquash by other members of the American Indian Movement in Mid-December 1975, allegedly was her knowledge that Leonard Peltier had shot the two agents, as he was convicted."

I can find no argument with eanjay's contention that "irrespective of whether he is innocent or guilty people should be up in arms about the treatment he receives"

However, this should be applied equally to the estimated 20,000 plus prisoners held in isolation (which has become a "regular part of the rhythm of prison life") in the United States at any one time, and not just one, very publicized, case

If the OP was to promote a petition against the unnecessary uses of solitary confinement for minor infractions and to demand better medical and mental health care* for all then I would certainly sign.

* "There are facilities with four or five thousand people that only have two or three doctors." Around the country, some physicians are operating on a license that restricts their work to correctional facilities
because they are deemed not qualified to provide care in the community. misguided federal law deprives correctional systems of desperately needed Medicaid and Medicare dollars to fund decent health care. Many people in prison and jail qualify for these federal benefits and lose them when they are incarcerated. Just like any other community healthcare provider, correctional agencies should be reimbursed for the cost of providing health services to people who are Medicaid and Medicare eligible"
Dr. Joe Goldenson
Confronting Confinement report

Stop Prison Abuse petition

National Religious Campaign Against Torture. "Torture is a Moral Issue" Statemen


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 09:47 AM

and an undeniably flawed trial doesn't necessarily equate with lack of guilt

Nor does it necessarily equate with GUILT.

"Flawed?" the trial was a joke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 12:51 PM

""the trial was a joke""

I suspect in USA justice, that would widely open the door to the appeal process.

If so, why did appeals not confirm/pick up on these flaws, if they were legally compelling?

You have to excuse my lack of knowledge on the details. But, many here have seemed to have read up alot on the topic. I have noticed through a GOOGLE seatrch that many internet sources of information would hardly be considered unbiased.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 02:09 PM

If so, why did appeals not confirm/pick up on these flaws, if they were legally compelling?

Well, U.S. law has some interestingquirks- look up Supreme Court case Herrera v. Collins, 506 U.S. 390 (1993)

Then there's Justice Clarence Thomas & Justice Antonin Scalia who criticized their colleagues for thinking that mere innocence is grounds to overturn a conviction:

    ""This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is "actually" innocent. Quite to the contrary, we have repeatedly left that question unresolved, while expressing considerable doubt that any claim based on alleged "actual innocence" is constitutionally cognizable.""

I could go on......


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 02:38 PM

""This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is "actually" innocent. Quite to the contrary, we have repeatedly left that question unresolved, while expressing considerable doubt that any claim based on alleged "actual innocence" is constitutionally cognizable.""

So, if one is proven guity and one cannot prove otherwise under habeas corpus but merely alleges he is innocent, he is guilty in the eyes of the courts. Ahhh, yeah, that's the way it works. Otherwise, open the doors... which, again, is pretty "quirky" to me.

I dunno IF you should go on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 02:55 PM

The appeals court (decision linked above) looked at each 'flaw' that Mr. Peltier and his attorneys raised. They said that some of the issues were clearly valid but they were not so egregious as to warrant either overturning the verdict or ordering a new trial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 03:49 PM

I don't believe the role of a state of federal appeal court is to decide if a person is innocent or guilty nor if errors were made on either side. The role is to the review trial proceedings and decisions of lower courts to determine if errors were made that were "serious enough" to effect a trial outcome.

I believe the role of the USA Supreme Court is somewhat different (as noted below). So, the comments you refered to by Greg F, could have been be taken out of context.

The USA Supreme Court's Role
""The Court typically will agree to hear a case only when it involves an unusually important legal principle, or when two or more federal appellate courts have interpreted a law differently. There are also a small number of special circumstances in which the Supreme Court is required by law to hear an appeal.""


US Federal courts


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 03:51 PM

Last post, first line of my last post should read:I don't believe the role of a state "or" federal appeal court


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 06:36 PM

Ahhh, yeah, that's the way it works....I dunno IF you should go on.

Not only should I, I will.

That AIN'T exactly how it works & 'taint that simple.- check it out, here, & do read the dissenting opinions:

CLICK HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 07:05 PM

So, the cop that got killed said he did it but the little kid said, much later, that grampa did it so the shooter should go free? Fuckin unreal. Yer gonna believe a recount from 9 year old boy's memory years later under habeus rather than THE GUY THAT WAS KILLED?!!! along with all the other evidnce?!!! I really don't have time to read PAGES of legal documentation misinterpreted as showing the justice system failed when it obviously did not.

The cop that died said it was the convicted man that killed him and there was lots of evidence to the same effect. I am gone. This is just too strange.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 08:17 PM

I really don't have time to read PAGES of legal documentation misinterpreted as showing the justice system failed when it obviously did not.

Fascinating. You haven't read the material, but you know what it says and know its been misinterpreted and can draw positive conclusions about what you haven't read, based on what you haven't read.

Talk about strange.... that's REALLY strange.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 08:54 PM

Greg F, thank you for the link. I haven't read it all :) However, what I have read is interesting.

A person when first charged with a crime is entitled to a presumption of innocence, and may insist that his guilt be established beyond a reasonable doubt. However, it was observed that [d]ue process does not require that every conceivable step be taken, at whatever cost, to eliminate the possibility of convicting an innocent person.

Once a defendant has been afforded a fair trial and convicted of the offense for which he was charged, the presumption of innocence disappears and there is a lot in the link which highlights the difficulties that someone, who has been wrongly convicted, faces to clear their name once that presumption of innocence disappears.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Sawzaw
Date: 13 Oct 11 - 11:30 PM

The actions of an innocent man:

On November 14, when an Oregon state trooper spotted someone who resembled Peltier riding in a Dodge Explorer motor home. The man believed to be Peltier gave the officer a false name--then took off into the night over a fence, firing in the trooper's direction. The driver of the motor home sped off, but the vehicle was later found abandoned, with the motor running, a couple of miles down the highway. A search of the vehicle turned of a paper bag containing Jack Coler's [murdered agent's] Smith and Wesson .357 magnum gun. A fingerprint on the bag matched that of Peltier. Agents also discovered nine grenades and dynamite in the RV. Peltier's fingerprints also turned up in an Oregon ranch home where other guns recovered from the motor home had been reported stolen.

After his close encounter with the trooper in eastern Oregon, Peltier found his way to Portland, and then crossed the border into British Columbia. He learned there that Robideau and Butler faced murder charges, and that his own face appeared on the FBI's "Ten Most Wanted Fugitives" list in post offices and law enforcement agencies. Feeling to conspicuous in predominately white southern Canada, Peltier headed north, first to B. C.'s Kamloops region, and then east to a remote native camp in Alberta. In early February, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police learned through an informer that Peltier could be found near Hinton, a town 160 miles west of Edmonton. The mounties discovered Peltier sitting in a schoolhouse next to a suitcase containing two loaded revolvers, one of which had been stolen from an Oregon farmhouse. Mounties transported Peltier to a Vancouver prison to await a hearing on his possible extradition to the United States.

The case for extradition rested on the Wisconsin "attempted murder" charge, murder charges relating to the deaths of the two FBI agents at Oglala, and attempted murder of an Oregon trooper. Under Canadian law, extradition was appropriate if evidence was presented that could convince any reasonable jury that the suspect was guilty of the charge or charges. The United States presented six witnesses and entered thirty affidavits in making its case for Peltier's extradition. Peltier, who asked for political asylum, presented ten witnesses on his behalf--most of whom stressed AIM's role at Oglala and tense situation that had existed between rival Indian groups and the federal authorities. The government's only direct eyewitness testimony came in the form of two affidavits signed by Myrtle Poor Bear. Poor Bear asserted that Peltier and others had not only planned the killings, but carried them out himself--and that she was with Peltier when he did it. "I saw Leonard Peltier shoot the agents," Poor Bear's affidavit stated. Angered at the shooting, Poor Bear (according to her affidavit) screamed at Peltier, hit him, and ran away.

aw2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/peltier/peltieraccount.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: BTNG
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 12:46 AM

another posting quoting from the website of Douglas O. Linder, inwhich, I believe I have already stated, contains US government documents, which, at best, could be labelled as unsafe. it is my belief, after studying the documentation, that the Us Government wanted someone, anyone, to pay for the crimes of murdering the FBI agents. A similar thing occurred in Brtain with the bombings in Birmingham and Guilford, the attitude was, "pick some random Irish and charge them with terrorist attacks in the name of the IRA, wrongful accusations, wrongful imprisonment. In the case of the Guilford Four, Gerry Conlon, Paul Hill, Patrick Armstrong and Carole Richardson, The bombings were at the height of The Troubles in Northern Ireland. The Metropolitan Police were under enormous pressure to apprehend the IRA bombers responsible for the attacks in England. In December 1974 the police arrested the three men and the woman.
They were falsely convicted of the bombings in October 1975, and held in prison for fifteen years, during which Gerry Conlon's father, Patrick "Giuseppe" Conlon died in prison. Their convictions were later overturned in the appeal courts after it was proved the convictions had been based on confessions obtained by torture, whilst evidence clearing them was not reported by the police.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 07:43 AM

One does not have to single out "the Peltier case" to see that it is difficult to overturn a significant guilty court verdict. There are many people who face that same dilema, in and outside of the USA.

That being said, a legal process does exist, and people do get court rulings overturned (or at a minimum get freed). This occurs more often where a very compelling case exists.

I suspect that cases involving clear and coldly executed death (and, especially the killing of law enforcement officers), make such appeals even more difficult, in all countries. But, that should not be a surprise.

If a person is seen as violent (potential violence is not always seen to be mitigated by being locked up in jail), associated with other crimes, or a member of an extreme political movement, would anyone expect freedom not to be even more challenging to achieve?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 02:38 PM

Greg... "You haven't read the material..."

Incorrect on your part. Go back and actually read my posts rather than taking snippets and attempting to twist them around to suit what you believe, incorrectly, to be an actual arguement which has any bearing on the logical discussion at hand. It is quite obvious I did read enough to provide backup for my arguements. Your statement is false. You obviously cannot add things up... obvious because you have posted the obvious in your own words.

I suggest you have a few ales and relax rather than posting such inane crap. It really makes you look bad when you fuck up THAT royally and try to squirm your way out with posting falsehoods.

And that's my last post... unless you wanna post some more inane and untruthful absofuckinglutely bullshit crap... outright LIES... about me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 06:01 PM

Gnu - whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 06:24 PM

"Whatever"? No apology? That shows class that does.

gnightgnu


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 06:38 PM

No apology?

Nope. Just inane and untruthful absofuckinglutely bullshit crap & outright lies.

Sleep well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 06:47 PM

I'll accept a confession. Especially since your own words prove you guilty beyond ANY doubt. And, *I* WILL sleep well. Not so sure about you.

You keep posting and so will I. Or, you can drop it and, as I said before, I will say gnightgnu for good on this thread. Up to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 07:04 PM

Go Down You Murderers (The Ballad Of Tim Evans)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 08:14 PM

He did! No he didn't! Yes he did! No he didn't! Yes he did! No he didn't! He did too! NO he DIDN'T!! Yes he DID!!! etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: ollaimh
Date: 14 Oct 11 - 09:56 PM

what is being ignored by mamny is that the lakota people were in a civil war and at war with the american government. the usa was ruling pine ridge reservation like they ruled many a central american country through a local dictator and a goon squad. in this case the goon squad was actuallt called the goons(guardians of the oglala nation) armed by the bureau of indian affairs. the fbi were also targeting the native traditionalists and activists who were forming a loose coalition under the aim banner.

the long and the short is the representative sof the unites states government and the fbi murdered hundreds of natives. when this was put before the courts in the first trial all were aquitted. in addition to the faked evidence the fbi colluded and or committed murder on the pine ridge reservation. this was all an extension of the racist genocide committed aginst american natives to take their country. it was similar in canada in gustaffsoon lake.

the level of violence committed by fbi and their proxies was unconscionable. then they faked affidavits to get peltier extradited from canada. the affidavits were later shown to be perjury but no action was taken against the fbi perjurers and peltier was already in the usa.

the whole thing was a part of the ongoing racism of the united states government against the one people they can never let up on. natives, at least they can never let up untill they are mostly dead. the souix still have a legitimate legal claim to a sovereign nation under the ft laramie treaty and the us supremem court agreed but offered only a cash settlement rather than a return of part of the land. the souix have remained strong in rejecting that offer. they want their land..

the whole peltier case stinks to the high heavens. not only was he not involved in the killings he was part of the group targeted by the bri and their proxies. their remains no direct evidence linking him to the murders and they were not mruders to start with, natives were defending their lands from the illegal intrusions by government agents--which was conformed by the first trial. the second trial was a put up job and no one at any level was prepared to defy the fbi.

it is a sin how peltier had been treated in jail.

having been a lawyer i really should write a book on the consistent depravation of natives legal civil and human rights in the courts of canada and the united states. i british columbia they tried to charge a man defending natives with contempt of court for saying that the judiciary had been involved in a racist conspiracy. this was so controversial they got clayton ruby from ontario to review the ethics of this. ruby said yes its contepmt of court but its true, and we shouldn't punish people for speaking the truth in court. so one of the top lawyers in canada said it was true. does any one need more. out courts have never treated natives fairly. they didn't even allow natives to sue into the seventies in most provinces, nor to appeal convictions without approval from indian affairs. people are upset about israeli apartheid, well it's canada and the usa that are the apartheid states.under south african apartheid the courts all went along as well, as they did in nazi germany--really courts ultimately do what the power brokers weant. occasionally they do some good and then the powerfull get rid of that loop hole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 09:03 AM

Curious:
Don't they encourage the use of upper case letters in legal school, ollaimh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 09:05 AM

Please, ollaimh, write that book. x


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 09:32 AM

Maybe the guy is innocent. Maybe the the guy got a raw deal in the legal system. Maybe the guy is mistreated in jail, beyond the treatment of others. Maybe the case deserves another legal review?

If that were the case, why not focus on that and put direct information forward (not lot loads of indirect loosely related web links about the indian movement, law enforcement and the legal system in general).

Is a goal is to convert the open minded, or to reinforce the already converted?

Draging one or more conspiracy theories into it, and asking people to read "loads of somewhat indirectly related material" on the courts, IMO, does nothing more than discredit valid points, and turn logical thinlkers off.

Consider this:

10-conspiracy theories


The Conspiracy Theory Detector


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: BTNG
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 03:14 PM

That book's already been written. In the Spirit of Crazy Horse by author Peter Matthiesen

In The Spirit Of Crazy Horse


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 03:41 PM

Two men killed by him and he should go free? Nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: BTNG
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 03:46 PM

believe as you wish Q...many others differ in opinion, legal minds included in that group


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 04:03 PM

I tend to lean towards Q and gnu's position. Mainly, because I have faith in the legal system.

However, I do not rule out that mistakes are made, and history has proven that innocent people are put behind bars because their is a "human" factor and a bias in the enforcement part of the legal system. So, based on that, I am open to evidence directly related to this one case. Please put it forward (and not web links to library-sized documents).


Note, that like many, I am closed to all the conspiracy theories, generalizations about the legal system and truckloads (or web-loads) of personal opinions about indirect stuff and fictional pieces, or opinions of people who seek a cause to be placed in the entertainment spotlight. I am sympathetic to the significant emotion around the case. But, beyond that, in the end, heartfelt wishes does little that really matters to unlock jail doors.

Please do logical thinkers a service by posting this evidence, or "information" directly related to the case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 04:08 PM

OOPs., I was Guest, reset cookie.

I tend to lean towards Q and gnu's position. Mainly, because I have faith in the legal system.

However, I do not rule out that mistakes are made, and history has proven that innocent people are put behind bars because their is a "human" factor and a bias in the enforcement part of the legal system. So, based on that, I am open to evidence directly related to this one case. Please put it forward (and not web links to library-sized documents).


Note, that like many, I am closed to all the conspiracy theories, generalizations about the legal system and truckloads (or web-loads) of personal opinions about indirect stuff and fictional pieces, or opinions of people who seek a cause to be placed in the entertainment spotlight. I am sympathetic to the significant emotion around the case. But, beyond that, in the end, heartfelt wishes does little that really matters to unlock jail doors.

Please do logical thinkers a service by posting this evidence, or "information" directly related to the case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: BTNG
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 04:39 PM

it's amusing to read about the effect Peter Matthiesen had on some folk at the time, it's safe to say, I think, that he scared the crap out of a few people.....example:

Bill Janklow, the former Republican state attorney general and governor of South Dakota, and David Price, an agent with the FBI, filed libel suits against Viking Press for contents of the book. Janklow also filed a suit against the author Matthiessen. In an unusual action, he filed a suit against three South Dakota booksellers for selling copies of the book. Viking Press filed a countersuit against Janklow, which in part alleged he had interfered with the company's constitutional rights to publish and distribute the book. The lawsuits prevented the book from being published in paperback for eight years

reads to me like someone/someones had something to hide, oh and yes I have read the book, a number of times

Ed T is right, conspiracy theories are decidedly unhelpful in any context.They sometimes make amusing reading but in general are tiresome to the extreme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 05:15 PM

One does not have to single out "the Peltier case" to see that it is difficult to overturn a significant guilty court verdict. There are many people who face that same dilema, in and outside of the USA.

True but with the recent appeal Knox. I found it interesting to note that some US writers commented that she was fortunate to be in Italy rather than home in the USA.

I suspect that cases involving clear and coldly executed death (and, especially the killing of law enforcement officers), make such appeals even more difficult, in all countries. But, that should not be a surprise.

That may well be true but I hope you are not suggesting that a system that operates in such a manner can be considered just.

If a person is seen as violent (potential violence is not always seen to be mitigated by being locked up in jail), associated with other crimes, or a member of an extreme political movement, would anyone expect freedom not to be even more challenging to achieve?

Similarly I trust you are not suggesting that a wrongful conviction can possibly be justified for these reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 06:37 PM

No, Guest Jon, I am not suggesting anything you allude to.

Each case has to be looked at on it's own circumstances/merits. Clouding the issue by dragging up other indirect, (and, even remote) cases and issues, IMO, merely clouds the case to be made. Considering so many people seem to believe in this mans innocence, surely a more direct case can be presented?

So, what do you, yourself, have to offer to advance the case of this mans innocence? I am merely asking, Where's the beef?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 06:59 PM

Ed T, I was merely asking where you stood in relation to your comments but...

I've no feeling believe either way as to his guilt or innocence but, reading the wikipedia article, I find this for example:

An FBI ballistics expert testimony during the trial asserted that a shell case found near the dead agents' bodies matched the rifle tied to Peltier. He said that a forensics test of the firing pin, which would have more definitively matched the gun to the cartridge case, was not performed because the gun was damaged in the fire. A less definitive test indicated that the extractor marks on the case and rifle matched.

Years later, after an FOIA request, the FBI ballistics expert's records were examined. His report said that he had performed a ballistics test of the firing pin and concluded that the cartridge case from the scene of the crime did not come from the rifle tied to Peltier. That evidence was withheld from the jury during the trial.


as well as other doubts.

If true, I can not see how Peltier's conviction can be considered safe and believe he should be allowed an appeal or retrial.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: BTNG
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 07:04 PM

"The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures.

-Junius


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 09:26 PM

BTNG

I would not recommend Wiki as a source, as quality control is questionable. But, if you read farther down on the Wiki account you will see that trial appeal (s) did occur. I suspect if credible new evidence is put forward (that are viewed by the judiciary as significant enough), it would be considered,as with other crimial cases.

Here are some more reliable sources, the court documents:US vs LEONARD PELTIER


Check out a trial appeal account of the ballistic evidence. It seems different from what you posted from Wiki

""The ballistics expert testified that he was unable to fire the weapon because of its condition. He was, however, able to remove the bolt, place it on another AR-15, and conduct limited comparisons"".

Appeal document

While you state you have ""no feeling believe either way as to his guilt or innocencehave"" I find it surprising you would base your belief that "" he should be allowed an appeal or retrial"" based on a wikipedia article?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 09:31 PM

I suspect if credible new evidence is put forward (that are viewed by the judiciary as significant enough), it would be considered,as with other crimial cases.

Perhaps with regards to your

I suspect that cases involving clear and coldly executed death (and, especially the killing of law enforcement officers), make such appeals even more difficult

you must agree that the system is likely to be loaded against him in terms of what they would be prepared to consider significant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 09:43 PM

""Perhaps with regards to your""

Huh?


""you must agree that the system is likely to be loaded against him in terms of what they would be prepared to consider significant.""

I don't have to agree with that, but I do, for what my opinion is worth :)

I would expect (as I noted earlier) that it is an uphill battle to appeal any trial result, but one involving coldly executed murder (regardless of who did it), and more expectedly one involving the death of any enforcement official it is really a steep slope. The weight of the evidence would need to be compelling and sound for a good prognosis of success.

I suspect legal representatives in other homicide cases involding law enforcemet officials have a similar steep slope to climb.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 15 Oct 11 - 09:51 PM

Huh?

I thought I was quoting you with "I suspect that cases involving clear and coldly executed death (and, especially the killing of law enforcement officers), make such appeals even more difficult"


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 08:32 AM

Below is an interesting article on trial appeals and what is considered and why in the USA (for those interested in such stuff).


The Law on Error at Trial - USA


It came from here:
Appeal Court Responses to Errors at Trial


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Oct 11 - 10:50 AM

Interesting, thanks Ed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: ollaimh
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:11 PM

the american legal system like the canadian has always been biased against natives. otherwise we would have to face the ethical issue of how we got out freebee contiment.

there is decision after decicison showing this bias.

its relatively easy to aquit a black person who was wrongly convicted because doing so does not challenge out civilization, and succeeding in over tuurning a wrong full conviction against a black person is extremely hard. for a native it's next to impossible.

i worked in the court system for years and rarely saw natives ecieve the same treatment as others. in canada or the united states. those who think otherwise are hiding their heads in the sand and should be ashamed


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 09:20 AM

I did not see anyone here who indicated any doubt that "the american legal system like the canadian has always been biased against natives". IMO, that is factual.

However, that does not mean that this person is automatically innocent of a crime for which he was tried, and the result was reviewed publically by the same legal system others face, a number of times.
"
IMO, there is no "shame in discussing, or looking into the details of the case, to get a better understanding of it, in an "unbiased" climate, versus one slanted either way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:25 PM

You can listen to Leonard Peltier himself, right here, talking on the phone to Robbie Robertson...

Heartbreaking at times....

Robbie Robertson talking about Leonard Peltier 'Sacrifice'


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 04:41 PM

Please, write, phone, email, do whatever you are able...and share this all around. Thank you.

Leonard Peltier and Amnesty International - Video

Letter from Leonard Peltier himself: "Dear Friends,

For over 35 years I have been in federal prison for crimes I did not commit. Since June 27 the guards have had me in the hole, a small mis...erable cell with little air that is dangerously hot. They are torturing me by keeping me in solitary confinement—this is an effort to break and kill me. However, the public pressure being generated by my many supporters and counsel is making a real difference.

The government wants me to die in here, but I'm not going to. A dynamic new legal team with as lead attorney Robert R. Bryan of San Francisco has brought an innovative approach to the case. He is not going to let them continue to slowly execute me. Robert has launched a complex investigation spanning the entire country. The team also includes Nicole Gibier, my International Legal Liaison, and Cheryl J. Cotterill, associate legal counsel. With the leadership of Dorothy Ninham from the Oneida Reservation, Wisconsin, who I knew long before being arrested, and dedicated volunteers, we are rekindling the movement.

I am innocent. A racist jury tried me. A biased judge would not let me have a fair trial and the prosecution manufactured evidence including a supposed murder weapon. Later on October 15, 1985, the government admitted that it "can't prove who shot those agents." The judge would not even let me prove that the FBI intimidated and tortured witnesses and was engaged in a Reign of Terror—a war against the people on the Pine Ridge Reservation.

Robert's experience, tenacity, and unbridled approach can once and for all win my freedom. He has won countless murder cases and has represented members of the American Indian Movement. Robert successfully defended Jimmy Eagle, indicted for the murder of the two FBI agents in the case for which I was wrongly convicted. He understands the struggle.

To succeed we must have money for my defense. We desperately need your help. Please make a contribution (and indicate that your donation is for the "Legal Defense") to:

Leonard Peltier Defense Offense Committee

PO Box 7488

Fargo, ND 58106

Your can also contact my attorney directly: RobertRBryan@gmail.com (Law Offices of Robert R. Bryan, 2107 Van Ness Avenue, Suite 203, San Francisco, California 94109-2572).

I believe in the Spirit of Crazy Horse. They have imprisoned my body, but my spirit soars like an eagle. I will never give up, despite the threats to my health and life from this long imprisonment. I am an innocent man and will continue fighting against the genocide of my people.

In the Spirit of Crazy Horse,

Doksha,

Leonard Peltier

U.S. Penitentiary

Lewisburg, Pennsylvania"


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 07:57 PM

Thank you, Lizzie, for posting those last two entries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Sawzaw
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 11:36 PM

"the usa was ruling pine ridge reservation" NOT

Richard A. "Dick" Wilson (April 29, 1934 - January 31, 1990) was elected chairman (also called president) of the Oglala Lakota Sioux of the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota, where he served from 1972-1976, following re-election in 1974. Following complaints about his favoring friends and family in award of jobs and suppressing political opponents with his private militia, Guardians of the Oglala Nation (GOONs), members of the tribal council brought impeachment charges against him in February 1973. The prosecution was unprepared when Wilson said he was ready to go to trial, and the hearing closed without trial. No impeachment proceedings were renewed.

Several hundred Lakota people marched in protest, demanding the removal of Wilson from office. US Marshals were assigned to protect Wilson and his family. AIM leaders and Lakota supporters occupied the town of Wounded Knee, and a 71-day armed siege resulted, known as the Wounded Knee Incident. Two Native Americans were shot and killed and a US Marshal severely wounded during this period. Wilson remained in office and, following the occupation, violence increased on the reservation, with residents reporting attacks by his GOONs. More than 50 of Wilson's opponents died violently in the next three years.

The 1974 tribal chairman election was disputed, and a US Civil Rights Commission investigation showed electoral abuses amid fear and violence, and reported the election as invalid. A federal court upheld the results of the election and Wilson won. Political violence continued on the reservation. After being strongly defeated in the 1976 election for tribal chairman, Wilson moved with his family off the reservation. By 1990 Wilson had returned to Pine Ridge; he was campaigning for a seat on the tribal council at the time of his death.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 08:40 AM

Source, Sawz? Or didja make it up, as usual?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: BTNG
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM

Actually Greg F none of it is made up at all, I referenced the following to confirm this.
Your local library may well have copies of the books.

Ruling Pine Ridge. Akim Reihardt Lubbock: Texas Tech University Press.(2007)

In the Spirit of Crazy Horse. Peter Mathiessen New York: Viking.(1991)

The Dull Knives of Pine Ridge. Joe Starita New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons
(1995)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 12:58 PM

Think you better re-read Mathiessen's book- wch I have read.

I spent quite a bit of time at Pine Ridge in 1972-73, and have a number of personal friends- both Native American & "white"- who were there throughout the siege in '74.

The seem to remember some things VERY differently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:14 PM

Or didja make it up, as usual? I never make anything up but you never post anything, made up or not. Just personal attacks that you make up.

Books <> testimony. Books are written to sell so the author can make money. Do you think people might make things up in their book to make money?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:28 PM

Books are written to sell so the author can make money.

Well, Sawz, you should be writing books. With your innate ability to create mountains of bullshit, you're missing a lot of potential income.

And you still haven't provided a source.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: BTNG
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:28 PM

memory is a tricky thing, some people remember things they want to remember, distance and time ads to the problem, and Sawzaw, bait and switch is not and attractive trait, it makes me think you have no real opinion at all which in turn makes me think of another chatter who often pulls he bait and switch thing......

a final note Greg T, I noticed you ignored the othe rbooks I listed...hmmm...the attacks on Peter Mathiessen continue ever on, ya know what with the law suits and all (or were those made up to sell book>) I think Mathiessen got something VERY right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 03:24 PM

I think you misunderstand- I think Mathiessen did a good job. But I'll still go with the Crow Dog family's version of events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Sawzaw
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 12:41 PM

What does me writing books have to do with the fact that you are referencing books that were written to make money? Where is my profit motive?

This is a flaw in thinking along with the other logical fallacies like ad hominem attacks that you engage in which causes you to not be able to recognize the truth.

You get off on calling people stupid. Why? Is it some sort of defense mechanism that is triggered anytime your convictions are called into question? To your credit, you refrain for calling people a liar.

Perhaps you should defend your assertions rather than launch an ad hominem counter attack.

A search of the vehicle turned of a paper bag containing Jack Coler's [murdered agent's] Smith and Wesson .357 magnum gun. A fingerprint on the bag matched that of Peltier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: BTNG
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 12:45 PM

so Peltier touched the bag.....mind you lesser evidence than that has hanged women and men before this


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 06:18 AM

Lots of videos on here:

The AIMs 'Leonard Peltier' Youtube channel


Leonard's letter, set to the music of Robbie Robertson
'Never Forget' by Leonard Peltier (letter from 2010)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: ollaimh
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 10:15 PM

the american government was making war on the lakota traditionalists. using the the fbi and the bia funded and armed goons. you really can't get more racist than that. the killing of the two fbi agents took place after they had illegally entered private property. at the first trial the jury heard the spurious claim they were chasing a truck reported in an incident. even the testimony of fbi agents and dispachers showed that the trucj being pursued was a different color and make. they was chasing injuns cause injuns have no legal rights against the american government and its armed goons.

well the first trial showed a jury doesn't see it that way. the second trial ofpeltier excluded all the background evidence.essentially the conviction showed that natives cannot defend themselves on their own property from illegal incursions by the armed agents of the invading state.

i addition the fbu committed perjury in the affidavits to secure pertiers extradition. proving that no native can get due process in american courts if he supports native traditional rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 02:34 PM

PLEASE, contact Dr. Kane about Leonard Peltier and share the message and information below, around as much as you can. I have just rung and spoken to his secretary, who is a nice woman. She said she'll pass my message of deep concern on to him and ask him to look into what is happening to this poor man. She sounded very compassionate. She is also diabetic, like me, so she too knows what it does to someone who is diabetic to be fed just once a day, as Leonard was, whilst in four months solitary confinement until very recently, for having money on him, allegedly. This is a crime for prisoners. It was said he received the money from a letter, sent to him by a supporter in Scotland, but ALL mail is checked thoroughly by staff before being given out. Needless to say, Leonard has vehemently denied having money on him.

I told Dr. Kane's secretary that it's almost as if they, the FBI and the prison system, want Leonard to die in prison, so they can just wipe him from the face of the earth. I also told her that won't happen, because so many of us around the world now are waking up to what has been happening to this poor man....And I asked why President Obama won't free him, when he has the power to do that after someone has been in prison for over 30 years! SO upsetting, and so SO Wrong!

"In September, Leonard was transferred to USP Coleman in central Florida. His conditions initially appeared to be an improvement over the penitentiary in Lewisburg. but it seems his living conditions may indeed be much worse. For example, Leonard still isn't being allowed visitors. Family members have to reapply to be put on Leonard's visitors list. Even the attorneys (for the first time) have to be put on his visitors list. The attorneys have another level of approval to navigate, as well, but are finding it difficult to contact prison officials to make all the necessary arrangements. It took one attorney over one month to gain access to his client. Leonard is being isolated as never before. In addition, Leonard has been assigned to a top bunk. Due to a torn ligament which has never been repaired, Leonard's ability to climb safely is diminished. Mr. Peltier also should be placed in a unit with other older prisoners, but Coleman has Leonard listed as being 57 years of age when , in fact, he is 67 years old. All of Leonard's prison records over these many years clearly indicate his correct date of birth. Curious, right?"

Contact:

Dr. Thomas Kane, Acting Director
Federal Bureau of Prisons
320 1st Street, NW
Washington, DC 20534
E-Mail: info@bop.gov
Phone: (202) 307-3250 (Director); (202) 307-3198 (Switchboard)
Fax: (202) 514-662


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 05:17 AM

>>>"Feb. 06,2010 at the court house in Boulder, CO a reading from Leonard to the people of the world, in honor of the Spirit of Crazy horse, as a political prisoner of the United States of America. He has been incarcerated for over 34 years and still asking for our help. To be seen as a Native American standing up for his people and keeping faith for truth and justice. Ready by Mark Holtzman"<<<<



The latest letter (2010) from Leonard Peltier - Read on Youtube

Very moving....


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 06:13 AM

I have just emailed Dr. Thomas Kane to register my concerns and ask him to help Leonard Peltier. I have had an automated response to say that my email has been received and will be forwarded to the appropriate party for follow up as necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 06:16 AM

Thank you, Jean. xx


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 06:44 AM

Spoke by telephone with a friend who is in law enforecment in the states last night, glad to be able to report that this convicted killer has no chance of getting out.

So bleeding hearts and bored women should find another lost cause. Maybe Dale Farm ? oh sorry, that ball is also over the wall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 07:13 AM

"True sadness is to live a live where the only happiness gained comes from hatefulness" - Lizzie Cornish



Petition for Leonard Peltier exceeded required votes and now goes before The White House


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 07:27 AM

life


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 07:30 AM

I like that saying, Lizzie and it is so true.

It is good news about the petition; I am hopeful that his case will be looked at favourably.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 09:38 AM

Geez, listen to this radio programme...and weep! No wonder they have him locked up for 36 years. No wonder they're scared to let him free. Poor Leonard. Poor everyone else mentioned on here too.

What has been done to Leonard Peltier is one of the biggest scandals in American History, imo.

Audio link to documentary on Cointelpro 101


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 03:45 AM

From The Toronto Sun 5th November 2011:

Peltier Movie Seeks Justice - 'Wind Chases The Sun'


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 09:57 AM

Lizzie, any word of him getting out yet ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:14 PM

Many good people are working their butts off to achieve this...They are also working on sorting out the terrible way he's been treated in prison, *being* treated in prison, should I say.....

It's heartbreaking...I don't know how that man stays sane, I really don't. And now they've moved him so far from his family and friends, made it so difficult for them to visit him...

The people behind this are absolute bastards, and one day, either when Leonard is freed, or if he dies in prison, they'll be brought to face justice themselves over what they've done.

The whole thing stinks, from top to bottom and bottom to top..and meanwhile, for the past 36 YEARS this man has lived his life behind bars, inside prison routine, day upon endless day, being treated like shite throughout those years..

I have a whole new meaning for the letters F B I


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 02:45 PM

If anyone would like to write to Leonard, here are the details...Letters and cards only, apparently.


Leonard Peltier, Inmat...e # 89637-132.
USP - Coleman 1
U.S. Penitentiary
P.O. Box 1033.
Coleman, FL. 33521
USA


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 04:42 PM

Just in case anyone was in any doubt:

Ramsey Clark (former Attorney General of the USA) speaking about Leonard Peltier. *Please note this was written in 1999. Leonard has been in prison for a crime he did not commt for 36 years now



Ramsey Clark's Preface to'Prison Writings - My Life is My Sun Dance' by Leonard Peltier

(Ramsey was counsel to Leonard Peltier & former Attorney General of the United States of America.)



"I want to tell you why the freedom of Leonard Peltier is so important.

There are well over 200 million indigenous people on the planet, maybe as many as 300 million. They live on six continents and on countless numbers of islands. And everywhere they are the most endangered of human species. Yet the survival of humanity depends upon their salvation.

Leonard Peltier is the symbol of that struggle. I am distressed, saddened, and outraged that so many Americans have forgotten, or perhaps never known, who he is and what he represents. If we forget him, we forget the struggle itself. Strangely he is much better known outside of this country than here - in Europe, in Canada, in South America, in Asia and Africa. Enlightened people around the world see in him the struggle of all indigenous people for their lives, their dignity, for their sovereignty, their future. And they wonder: how is it that this man has been held so long when his innocence is known by those who hold him? Here in the United States, his voice, and the urgent message of indigenous peoples everywhere, has been muffled, if not silenced. Those who put him behind bars - and insist on keeping him there after nearly a quarter of a century* - believe he has been consigned to the dustbin of history, along with the cause of native peoples everywhere. We must not allow that to continue.

I think I can explain beyond serious doubt that Leonard Peltier has committed no crime whatsoever. Even if he had been guilty of firing the gun that killed two FBI agents - and it is certain that he did not - it would still have been in self-defense and in the defense not just of his people but of the right of all individuals and peoples to be free from domination and exploitation.

Not a single credible witness said they saw Leonard take aim at anybody that tragic day at Oglala in June 1975 on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota. There was absolutely no evidence that he killed anyone - except fabricated and utterly misleading circumstantial evidence. Among the many, many things withheld in his alarmingly unfair trial - a trial that disgraced and continues to disgrace, the American judicial system - was the staggering violence on the Pine Ridge Reservation that led directly to the events of that day. That violence, directed against traditional people on the reservation, had earlier caused the related and better-known tragedy revolving around the occupation and siege at nearby Wounded Knee in 1973. And that violence accelerated enormously in the two years between 1973 and 1975.

At the time of Wounded Knee in 1973, there were only a few FBI agents in the whole state of South Dakota, and frequently just one. But by 1975, thee were sixty. They were deployed overwhelmingly against a small Indian population. During these two years more than sixty Indians on the Pine Ridge Reservation - some say as many as three hundred - died violent and unexplained deaths, overwhelmingly from activity instigated by our own federal government. And there is little doubt about it.

With government complicity, a rogue paramilitary group that proudly called itself the GOONs - Guardians of the Oglala Nation - were provided with weapons, training, and motivation to create a wave of violence, still remembered as the "reign of terror," against traditional Indian people and their supporters, including the American Indian Movement (AIM).   In March of 1975 alone seven Indians were killed, their deaths going virtually uninvestigated despite the presence of that army of FBI agents and other federal, state, and tribal lawmen. And that's why the traditional people, the Elders of the Lakota (Sioux) people, asked AIM, as they had two years before at Wounded Knee, to send some people to help protect them. And I say thank God AIM did.

A small group of brave, dedicated AIM members - fewer than seventeen people, only six men, Leonard Peltier among them - came to protect the traditional Indians from violence secretly and illegally condoned and initiated by our government. Those AIM defenders, joined by local traditionals, set up a tent city, a "spiritual camp" they called it, on the remote Pine Ridge property of Harry and Celia Jumping Bull - two Elders who feared desperately for their loved ones' lives after constant threat from the GOONs.

This was a time, we must remember, of government paranoia against all dissident groups that remained as the Vietnam War era was drawing to a close. These things were all interrelated. We should never forget Martin Luther King Jr.'s heartbreaking words in 1967, when he came out against the war in Vietnam and announced "The greatest purveyor of violence on earth is my own government."

There's no question that our own government was generating violence against traditional Indians of Pine Ridge at that time as a means of control and domination, some believe acting on behalf of energy interests planning to purloin the reservation's vast untapped mineral wealth, especially uranium.

We now know, from documents recently released in the 1990s under the Freedom of Information Act, that the FBI had people in place at least twenty minutes before the two cars that precipitated the 'incident at Oglala' drove down into the Jumping Bull compound. The government had been preparing for a major act.

During the trial of Leonard Peltier in Fargo, North Dakota, in 1977, much essential background evidence in the case was excluded. The greatest exclusion was all of this government-instigated violence, which had caused the whole tragedy and led to the deaths of their own agents.

Why were these men of AIM there? Why was Leonard Peltier there? He was there to protect people, his own people, who were being killed! If that's a crime, where are we?

But the government's own crimes didn't end there. They suborned our whole system of justice when they intimidated a witness, a poor and unknowing Indian woman, into testifying that she was Leonard Peltier's girlfriend and that she had actually seen Leonard kill the agents - then used that testimony to extradite Leonard from Canada, where he had fled fearing precisely the kind of kangaroo justice he was about to receive in U.S. courts.

As the FBI well knew, that woman wasn't even there, had never met or even seen Leonard Peltier, and the government knew it! It's amazing to me still, how they talk about that woman and blame her for not telling the truth. Because, long after it was all over, they freely admitted "there's not a scintilla of evidence, not a spark of evidence" - those are their own words - that this woman was a witness to anything. They admitted she wasn't even there. Now, do you think she just came forward and volunteered three affidavits? What did that poor woman go through at the hands of her interrogators? What type of abuse? It was the same sort of abuse and manipulation being perpetrated on the whole traditional population of Pine Ridge - and by our own government agents. Think of how they treated her to force her to give utterly false testimony, and took advantage of her in order to get Leonard Peltier and bring him back here. What a shameful, criminal act! So long as it goes unchallenged and unpunished we are all of us , every citizen in this great nation of ours, subject to the same kind of naked and arrogant injustice.

The other concealments that the government went through to imprison Peltier are unbelievable. The FBI laboratory, as you no doubt have heard, is the subject of a whole series of recent reports that condemn it for fabricating evidence, for falsifying evidence, for incompetence in evaluation of evidence. Yet the extenuated nature of the only evidence against Leonard Peltier is so absurd that, if the FBI laboratory were either competent or honest, that so-called evidence wouldn't be worth anything. The government, in prosecuting its fraudulent case against Leonard, covered up lab reports that said they could not connect the one bullet (it wasn't even a bullet but a casing, an expended casing) with what was called the 'Wichita AR-15' the so-called "murder weapon" And yet the FBI claimed to connect the AR-15 bullet casing (itself suspected of being fabricated evidence) with that particular AR-15, even though their own lab said they did not match, and they then illegally concealed this evidence to the contrary throughout Leonard's Fargo trial. Nor, even if they did connect the two, could they place that weapon in Leonard Peltier's hands, much less even prove it to be the "murder weapon" Leonard wasn't within fifteen hundred miles of where it was found near Wichita, Kansas, weeks after the shootout at Oglala. So how does that get to be his rifle in the first place? Well, they had a plan for that. The government argued that there was only one AR-15 rifle possessed by Indians on the reservation. But that was absolutely false, as they well knew. And the courts have since confirmed, without question, that there were a number of AR-15s there and M-16s as well, which fire the .223 cartridges that allegedly killed these FBI agents.

At Leonard's trial, government prosecutors re-enacted a scene for which they had no evidence whatsoever - an imaginary scene in which one agent, supposedly suffering from already having been hit at a distance, put his hand in front of his face and begged not to be shot and was shot through the hand and killed by Leonard Peltier, who then whirled and shot the other agent and killed him, both at point-blank range. The only problem was that there was absolutely no evidence of that; no witness testified to anything like that. And yet the jury was intimidated into believing this totally false story.

Then, in 1985, after Leonard had already served a decade in prison, one of the government prosecutors candidly admitted, "We did not know who shot the agents." That's what he said: "We did not know who shot the agents" Now more than another decade has passed and still Leonard Peltier is in prison! He's there, convicted on two counts of murder, and he's serving two life sentences - all for a crime the government knows it did not prove he committed! By imprisoning Leonard Peltier, those who keep him locked away from his people continue the government's dishonorable centuries-old policy of domination over, and oppression of, Indian peoples. Leonard Peltier is the very symbol of that domination and continuing oppression. Is it any wonder he's called a "political prisoner"?

So even after the government admitted that they did not prove who killed the agents, rather than see Leonard freed and thus open the door to an investigation into their own misdeeds, they switched after the fact to a new, equally fraudulent argument for continuing his imprisonment - charging him with "aiding and abetting" whoever it was who supposedly killed the agents. Yet the jury had given him a double life sentence because they believed the prosecutor's fabricated story that Leonard had murdered those injured agents in cold blood at point blank range, not for a charge of "aiding and abetting," which could equally apply to scores of Indians that day. They would never have given him a sentence twice his natural life for simply being at the scene, as were so many, trying to defend their elders and women and children against the government's unlawful and misguided invasion of the Jumping Bull property.

The fact is, the government does not have to tell us who shot the agents. The whole record shows that officials don't know who shot the agents, and they don't want anybody else to know. They desperately want the world to believe that Leonard Peltier is guilty because they have staked their reputation on it.

The president of the United States can commute that sentence in the name of justice any moment he wants to. He has the power, complete and absolute, under the Constitution. We have to demand that he does it and we must demand that it happens this year, this very day. Each of us and all of us must raise our voices in a chorus of millions, of tens of millions.

Until that happens, every day is a new crime, every dawn is a new crime, every dusk is a new crime against the dignity of the Indian peoples and the honor of the United States of America. Because while Leonard Peltier is in prison, we all are."<<<


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 04 Dec 11 - 09:10 PM

"There are well over 200 million indigenous people on the planet, maybe as many as 300 million."

I thought there was like 6, getting near 7B people who were born here? *I* am not indigenous to this planet? Where the fuck did I land from if I wasn't born here????

I recall posting about the fact that I read from court records that one of the officers he shot IDd him as the shooter before he died. I ain't gonna go back and read it all again and post it all again. I said my piece but it seems to have been ignored.

Read the whole thread. Read the court records. Decide for yourself based on the public record. Read the FACTS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 06:58 AM

And I would suggest you too read the many facts in the above letter, from a former Attorney General, gnu, before taking off in such an arrogant manner.

Thanks.

And as for your rant about being 'indigenous'....hey, we left our tribes a very long while back, went out to cause chaos, at least, many of us did, through history, sadly.

Time to find our way back, pretty darn fast.

And why the hell would ANYONE trust the Court Records in this case? That is the ENTIRE point! READ Ramsey Clark's letter!


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 08:19 AM

Lizzie, thank you for taking the time to type that out. I don't have the book and I am sure that there are many others who don't either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 04:59 PM

"Not a single credible witness said they saw Leonard take aim at anybody that tragic day..."

What about the guy he shot? Not credible?

You wanna read a "book" or the court evidence? BTW, it costs nothing to read the evidence in the public record but ya gotta BUY the book.

Say, does Lee get a cut on the book even if he is serving time for murder?

And, BTW, IF Ramsey Clark can prove all these accusations, why hasn't Ramsey Clark DONE IT? I would say Ramsey Clark has a DUTY to Lee to do so. But, there ain't no COIN in that, is there? Oh, wait, yeah, there is a SHITLOAD a coin in that... Lee would be compensated GREATLY for wrongful imprisonment, wouldn't he? So, why not go THAT route, get Lee out and get a big compensation package?

Allow me to answer rather than dragging this out. HE SHOT PEOPLE. He is in jail for SHOOTING PEOPLE. The court evidence proves it. He was convicted. His case was reviewed and DENIED appeal. He AIN'T gettin out so the best money deal is a book.

Buy the book. Buy copies for your friends and relatives. Send $$$ to the Free Lee foundation.

But... he ain't gettin out on accounta he shot people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 09:08 PM

This guy is a convicted murderer. Not only should he remain in prison, he should rot there. And I am glad to report that is exactly what is going to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 04:48 AM

You tell me, gnu, why Leonard Peltier has not been freed? You tell me why the FBI tried to get 'In The Spirit of Crazy Horse' banned, which again, is filled with evidence supporting his innocence? You tell me why they put huge pressure on Bill Clinton, threatening to take to the streets, when Clinton was about to release him? You tell me why, even to this day, Leonard is denied parole? You tell me why he is, at this moment in time, denied access to testing his blood sugar, despite being diabetic? You tell me why he is being denied visits from family, from lawyers, due to the new set of hoops Coleman Prison has thrown down? You tell me why Myrtle Poor Bear was NOT allowed to give evidence, telling the court how she was forced into saying she knew Leonard Peltier, saw him fire the gun? You tell me why the FBI suppressed so much evidence that would have got him walking free from that court? You tell me why the FBI themselves have said they do NOT know WHO killed those agents? You tell me why they tried to alter the charge to 'aiding and abetting' when they knew their shit evidence had been rumbled?

You tell me HOW, when all of the above is PUBLIC and LEGAL knowledge, tell me HOW Leonard Peltier is still in prison????


And I will tell YOU a tale of men who are so shit scared of being brought to trial themselves that they will stop at nothing to try to silence the truth! I will tell you a story of dishonesty, racism, hatred, political intrigue and the deep corruption within US Justice System which is so damned screwed up, so damned horrendous, that it will FIGHT to keep an INNOCENT man in prison for 65 YEARS just to save its' own back!!

They are the most evil bunch of bastards EVER and one day, they *will* pay for what they have done to Leonard Peltier..

HOW he is still sane, I've no idea, apart from the fact that he chose to become a symbol for his People...And if the Native Americans were still in charge of *their* country, men such as Leonard Peltier would be in the right place..teaching the young people how to have strength and spirit that outshines all around them...

However, you have a right to your opinion, no matter the fact that I regard it as total crap. I just hope you never find yourself in a similar situation, although, if ever you do, at least you will have time to reflet on your thoughts....

I tell you what though, if Leonard does die in prison, then...THEN they will have more shit surrounding them than they ever dreamt of, for then out will come the court cases, out will come the books, the films, the TV series, and those who ARE guilty of the longest and most horrendous miscarriage of justice in American History, will be finally made to account for what they have done..


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 05:01 AM

Well he is staying put, exactly where he belongs. I wouldn't be in any hurry sweetie to bake a cake with a file in it. Look around, there are plenty other lost causes to chase up, some in fact in your own country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 09:01 AM

I suggest anyone who cares read this page, especially the judicial opinions.

There's certainly enough there to leave a doubt in the minds of those who have them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 10:42 AM

Not signing in does not count as not posting, Lizzie. Why don't you just sign back in again to save having to put your name each time?

As for Leonard Peltier - I have said before I know little enough of either the relevent law or the case to comment and I have enough on my plate without taking on something I care little to learn about. Whichever side is right will prove themselves with or without my help.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 08:32 PM

"You tell me, gnu, why Leonard Peltier has not been freed?"

He is guilty. It has been proven MANY times. Read the public records.

Ya wanna read the hype that generates money? Go for it. Send in your money.

I'll send in some money... for a rope.

A DYING man identified him as his killer... along with all the other evidence. What more do you need?

As for me, I don't give two fucks from Tuesday if he is freed or fried. But I would prefer fried because I believe people who murder other people should pay with their own lives. Said it before, this guy has been allowed EVERY and numerous chance(s) to prove himself innocent... can't do it... BECAUSE HE SHOT PEOPLE. It's in the public record. It's proven.

Citing the viewpoints of anyone with no backup and no balls to carry it forward on Lee`s behalf does NOT make your case. It`s all bullshit unless it can be proven.

It`s called justice.

Lee is lucky he can still make money from killing people. And *I* think that is sickening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 05:33 AM

Thanks, Jeri...and that is the *official* site for Leonard Peltier, by the way.

gnu, you an FBI Agent by any chance?   


And as for those who have no wish to even bother to find out about the case of an innocent man locked away for 36 years, for a crime he didn't commit, and the deeply disturbing facts which surround this, I have no time for them...

So you're telling me, gnu, that a former Attorney General has 'no balls' and 'no back up' facts-wise or respect-wise, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 06:11 AM

There are thousands all over the world that are in prison for a crimes that they did not commit. Before anyone starts to judge those who chose other causes I sugegst they look into their own motives.

Hmmm- What shall I do? Scream and shout in a very loud voice about a high profile case so that everyone can see how good I am or shall I beaver away in the dark to help those poor souls in Jail with not a friend in the world and no hope of ever emerging alive?

How about trying to make a real difference supporting Amnesty International instead of posting to a forum that, quite frankly, doesn't make a ha'purth of difference?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 01:54 PM

Amnesty International, whom I've already contacted say they can do nothing more. They've been trying for near on 4 decades..

Why do I put details on here? Because there are folks here from America and Canada, as well as many other places, who may just be interested in doing something and who knows where any path might lead...Many on here are singers, songwriters, musicians, who are in touch with others of their trade...They have many opportunities to tell Leonard's story if they feel like doing so, thus bringing yet more people in.

I don't give a fuck if it gets up your nose, Dave, where, or what I post. I sure as hell am sick of your snidey remarks though.

I also post on the White House Wall, not so that people will think I'm some kind of fooking Saint, but because SOMEONE bloody well has to, to get most of the eejits who post total gobbledeegook on there to sit up and take notice!

Several posters from there have come over to my page and now spread the word to their friends..and THAT is why I do it!

Comprendez?????


MANY posters, the Occupy Wall Street Guys, on the Support Chief Raoni page I seem to now be running myself, are now spreading Leonard's story far and wide, along with the many dreadful things that have happened to the American Indians for so long, a great deal of which they knew nothing about...And they're ANGRY they knew nothing about his story.

The world seems to have forgotten Leonard Peltier....so the more folks who help to spread the word, the better. I am simply one more, no more or less important than the others who've been doing FAR more for a very long time, and who will continue to fight, with every breath in their body, to free Leonard.

Vivienne Westwood is doing all she can behind the scenes too....

The LPDOC guys are sensational and they're doing a bloody wonderful job keeping Leonard's morale up, fighting for better conditions for him all the time, recently demonstrating yet again, so that Obama would see them all on his recent visit to one of the Tribal Conferences.

Read this is you want. But hey, if you don't give a shit, then why the fuck do you bother to come in here, other than to have your usual bloody 'go' at me? You're a bully, Dave. Covert, but a bloody bully nonetheless, always determined to get folks to see me in as bad a light as you can possibly shine......

Well, shove your light up your arse and get out of this thread...

Thanks..


And yes, you're another reason why I rarely come here any longer. Hope that makes you proud, and if it does, then you are even more up your own arse than I think you are.

As to 'my motives' again, fook you. I just do things the way I've always done them, to spread the word, to make folks think, to get them angry sometimes, which causes thinking to go even deeper..I really don't give a flying duck what you, or anyone else thinks about me, so long as the message gets out there.....

So take your vindictive, suspicious crap and do with it what you will.




Oh, and folks can also check out The Leonard Peltier Walk for Human Rights, starting from Alcatraz Island, led by Dennis Banks, on December 18th...

>>>"Dennis Banks-Ojibwe
in Tucson, AZ
ALCATRAZ ISLAND - Dennis Banks, Ojibwe, will kickoff "The Leonard Peltier Walk for Human Rights." The Walk will leave Alcatraz Island on Sunday, December 18 and continue through California on its way to Washington DC where it will conclude on May 18, 2012.
The walk is an effort to raise attention regarding political prisoner Leonard Peltier, imprisoned for over 35 years, to seek his freedom, and to demand President Obama to assert his authority by providing an Executive Clemency.
"Leonard has served 35 years for something I do not believe he is guilty of doing,"
Banks told the Native News Network from the Leech Lake Indian Reservation in Minnesota on Thursday.
"He should be granted clemency for humanitarian reasons. He should be granted clemency for health reasons, " Banks continued.
"He has served time for real questionable court activities that found him guilty," stated Banks.
"He has already served too long."
Peltier, Turtle Mountain Ojibwe, was convicted of killing two FBI agents who showed up on June 25, 1975 at a private residence in Oglala, South Dakota.
Many American Indians and others around the world view Peltier as a political prisoner. Through the years, Peltier's supporters have included the Dalai Lama, Mother Teresa and Bishop Desmond Tutu, among other prominent names.
Banks is the co-founder of the American Indian Movement. He completed the Longest Walk 3 - Reversing Diabetes in July, which brought awareness to the epidemic rates of diabetes among American Indians in the United States. Banks led the first Longest Walk from San Francisco to Washington in 1978.
Banks will be joined by Dorothy Ninham, coordinator for Leonard Peltier Walk for Human Rights, Antonio Gonzales, Norman "Wounded Knee" DeOcampo.
Spiritual advisors Fred Short and Yvonne Swan and other regional American Indian Movement representatives will also be part of the ceremony and kickoff. Short and Swan will be on hand to guide the prayer service/ceremony. The morning's theme will also address the United States injustice system and support for all political prisoners human rights.
There will be drummers and singers, fire and tobacco offerings. All supporters and allies are welcome to attend this Sunday Prayer Circle who are in solidarity with political prisoners. The gathering is to also offer strength to the volunteers who have committed themselves to walk across the United States for Leonard Peltier and for all political prisoners, from Alcatraz Island to Washington.
The boat leaves for Alcatraz Island from San Francisco at Pier # 33 beginning 9:10 am until Noon. Prices for the ferry to Alcatraz Island are tentatively $14."<<<<


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 02:59 PM

Another post filled with ladylike comments. How nice.

"The world seems to have forgotten Leonard Peltier" Yes, because he murders people and a judge sent to jail for his crimes, at least the ones he was caught for. Evidence suggests he was involved in at least four other murders.

If you have time on your hands love, start contacting the widows of his victims and run your tears past them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 04:51 PM

People should only be in prison where guilt is proved beyond reasonable doubt; that is supposed to be the way the justice system works in both the UK and the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 05:00 PM

"So you're telling me, gnu, that a former Attorney General has 'no balls' and 'no back up' facts-wise or respect-wise, right?"

Yup. If so, why is Lee still in jail? Why can't an Attorney General get him out? I'd say it's because, like I said before, it's about money and not about the truth.

Seriously... speak to THAT... if the AG can prove it, why has is NOT been done?... simply, why not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 05:26 PM

""People should only be in prison where guilt is proved beyond reasonable doubt""

And, there is a legal system in most western countries to deal with that. You are considered innocent until proven guilty. Once you have been determined guilty, there are appeals systems (based on the trial and any admissable new facts). However, once you are found guilty, legally proving you are not guilty is very complex,and an up hill battle (made more difficult with time).

Beyond that, there are personal opinions, books, movies, magazines articles, petitions, web articles, songs (etc) to try and sway public opinion. But, in the end, it is not up to public opinion, it all comes back to the codified legal system in each country.

Whether one feels the law is fair oe not, likely depends on the side of an issue your interests/sympathies lie, an assesment of facts (logical and biased, or less so)and of course your personal opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 06:30 PM

Intersting reading -

http://legendofpineridge.blogspot.com/2009/07/aim-myth-busters-ten-reasons-why.html

Enjoy.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 07:44 PM

Ed... "However, once you are found guilty, legally proving you are not guilty is very complex,and an up hill battle..."

No, it's not any more complex than being shown to be guilty in the first place. If you have the evidence, you get out. If not, you stay in jail.

Lee is in jail, even though a former AG says he can get him out. Why this AG has not done that yet baffles me. I say send as much money as you can to the former AG to mount an appeal to free Lee. Mortgage your house if you have to to FREE LEE!

Oh, yeah, ya might make a small donation to the family of the guy that IDd Lee as the guy who shot him to death. Whatever ya can spare after ya mortgage yer house fer Lee's donation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 07:46 PM

Did you not READ the words of the former Attorney General, Ramsey Clark?

That 'blog' you've linked to is the biggest load of bullshit I've ever read.

If you choose to comment to me about things I have put down here, then at least do me the courtesy of READING what it is you are commenting about.

You will also find another site called 'In The Spirit of Coler and Williams' out there, which is a take of 'In The Spirit of Crazy Horse' by Peter Matthiesen, a book the FBI managed to 'somehow' mysteriously get removed from circulation whilst yet another legal case to try to free Leonard was going ahead. They tried to get it banned entirely, because it tells the truth of what happened that day, but sadly, for them, they were not able to do this. You'll find Peter on Youtube, you'll find his book online...

As I've said countless times before, Bill Clinton was going to release Leonard Peltier, but pressure was put on him by the FBI.

Look into how the FBI behaved towards the AIM. Look into the Jumping Bulls, who asked Leonard Peltier to come and help them...look into it all in depth, with an open mind, rather than a twisted one, which would rather condemn an innocent man, purely because of your utter hatred of me.....

And then, book yourself into see someone over your weird obssession with me and see if they can redirect your thoughts to Miss Piggy, instead.

Thanks.


gnu, that is the WHOLE POINT I'm making here!!! WHY, when a former Attorney General has gone to the trouble of writing what he has, gone to the trouble of being Leonard Peltier's counsel, knowing what he knows, proving beyond doubt what he can prove is Leonard Peltier STILL in prison?????

That is why Robert Redford made his film, to try to get this OUT THERE! That is why Desmond Tutu calls for his release. That is why Nelson Mandela does the same, writing to Leonard too...

Holey Jumping Catfish! WHY can you not see what is right in front of you!

READ why I took the trouble to type out!
SPEAK to those at 'Who Is Leonard Peltier' for they know FAR more than any of us here..and they have spent decades doing all they can to help him.

Better still, speak to the bloody FBI themselves, for THEY are the ones who are behind all this, in my opinion, and have been from the very start!   READ how they had cars in position 20 minutes before those agents went on to Pine Ridge, expecting something to happen...

And that twit who wrote the blog was wrong, because Leonard Peltier was 'convicted' of murder, but the FBI changed the plea to 'aiding and abetting' after his conviction...You can't change what a man has been sentenced for then leave him in prison for something he was never even tried for!   READ what Ramsey Clark says about that too...it's ALL in his detailed report above...


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 07:50 PM

Transcript of Democrary Now interview from 2000: Democracy Now site


>>>>AMY GOODMAN: This is a big weekend for rallies. In fact, on Sunday in New York, another major vigil and walk for another man in prison, and he is Leonard Peltier. Leonard Peltier, who has been in prison for more than twenty-four years, he is now at Leavenworth prison.

Yesterday in the late afternoon, FBI Director Louis Freeh sent a letter to President Clinton urging that the President not commute the life prison term of the American Indian activist serving a life term for killing two FBI agents. The vigil on Sunday — and it may be targeted to come at the time of this vigil, where many people are expected from around the country — in fact, many from the reservation that Leonard Peltier was on, the Pine Ridge Reservation — that's calling for the granting of executive clemency for Leonard Peltier.

I had a chance to ask President Clinton on Election Day about whether he would be granting executive clemency. This is Leonard Peltier on what Clinton had to say.

    LEONARD PELTIER: My name is Leonard Peltier. I'm a Lakota and Chippewa Native American, and I am currently serving two life sentences for the deaths of two FBI agents.

    AMY GOODMAN: Did you kill the FBI agents?

    LEONARD PELTIER: No, I did not.

    AMY GOODMAN: President Clinton, what is your position on granting Leonard Peltier executive clemency?

    PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON: Part of my responsibilities in the last ten weeks of office after the election will be to review the requests for pardons and executive clemencies and give them a fair hearing. And I pledge to do that.

    LEONARD PELTIER: I've got my dignity, my self-respect. And I'm going to carry that with me, even if I die here.

AMY GOODMAN: Leonard Peltier and what President Clinton had to say about his case. The key time is between Election Day and Inauguration Day.

We're now joined on the telephone by Jennifer Harbury, who is well known on many issues. She is also one of the lead attorneys for Leonard Peltier.

Before we talk about another case that you're deeply involved with, which we're going to go to after the break, the Organization of American States handing down a key ruling yesterday in the death of your husband, Guatemalan Mayan "Comandante Everardo," Efrain Bamaca Velasquez, let's talk about Leonard Peltier.

What is the significance of the FBI director's call on President Clinton not to grant Leonard Peltier executive clemency?

JENNIFER HARBURY: In fact, that's a very typical gesture from all of the different officials in the FBI at any high levels, not just today, but for the last twenty-five years. I personally find it quite shocking, given the extreme levels of misconduct on the part of FBI officials, which occurred throughout the trial of Mr. Peltier, throughout the investigation, and even after his incarceration. And by that, I'm specifically referring to FBI officials terrorizing a witness into signing a false statement saying that she was his girlfriend and witnessed the killings, when in fact she never met Mr. Peltier and later told the judge that. She simply didn't want to have her children taken away, which is what the FBI was threatening to do. I'm also specifically referring to the FBI decision to withhold the key findings of their ballistic expert, which actually said this bullet did not come from Mr. Peltier's weapon. They withheld that from the defense and instead testified that the bullet probably did come from his gun. Those are just two examples of some of the gross misconduct which occurred in the de facto lynching of Mr. Peltier, who has never to this day received a fair trial.

AMY GOODMAN: What word —

JENNIFER HARBURY: In fact, the United States attorney to this day admits that no one knows who fired those fatal shots.

AMY GOODMAN: What word do you have on which way President Clinton is going at this point? There must be a lot of internal goings-on at the White House now. And why do you think Freeh is coming out at this point? In addition, we understand that Henry Hyde, Congress member, is circulating a Dear Colleague letter calling on people — Congress members to sign a letter saying don't free Leonard Peltier.

JENNIFER HARBURY: Yes, well, Mr. Hyde has always opposed clemency in the case of Mr. Peltier. I don't think he's fully informed of the facts. Unfortunately, I think that that Dear Colleague letter will not go very far, since many people on the Hill are very apprised of the case.

I know, for example, on the — Coretta Scott King, Amnesty International, Desmond Tutu, Nobel Laureate Rigoberta Menchu, the National Conference of Churches, almost every major human rights organization and/or leader in the world has called for Mr. Peltier's release, not as the FBI suggests because they're knee-jerk liberals, but because they are in fact — they in fact are very, very aware of the record and the misconduct which occurred.

I think that Mr. Clinton is very seriously considering the petition. He and his staff, of course, have not been able to comment on which way they're leaning. I think at this point they're simply reading the materials very carefully. But I think the FBI is concerned, because there's been a major groundswell across the United States and in fact around the world, as Mr. Clinton's last days in office are approaching, to ask him to settle this case for once and for all and to undo the gross misjustice — injustices which have occurred for the last twenty-five years towards Mr. Peltier. And this would be a major gesture towards reconciliation between the United States government and Native peoples.

It would be a major gesture towards trying to undo some of the damage inflicted by the COINTELPRO era of the FBI. The FBI, of course, does not want the entire Reign of Terror issue to be looked at again with closer scrutiny, as Mr. Peltier's case becomes reexamined. That is one of the ugliest chapters of civil rights history in recent American history. Some sixty-four Native peoples were murdered, all of them AIM supports and sympathizers of AIM on Pine Ridge Reservation in a three-year period of time by vigilantes closely allied with and supported by the FBI.

AMY GOODMAN: Jennifer Harbury, we're going to talk more about this case in the coming days with the major event in New York this weekend and also this critical period of the consideration of executive clemency. But we have to break right now. When we come back, we want to look at another case, which is the case that was just decided by the Organization of American States.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: We continue with attorney Jennifer Harbury. The Organization of American States issued a harsh ruling yesterday against the Guatemalan military. In a case that has been fought now for eight years, the Inter-American Court of Human Rights found that the Guatemalan army is guilty of murder, torture and other crimes in the case of Mayan rebel Efrain Bamaca Velasquez, who disappeared in 1992. He was the husband of Jennifer Harbury. According to the ruling, the Guatemalan military had killed Bamaca and obstructed justice after the killing.

Jennifer Harbury, can you talk about the significance of this ruling?

JENNIFER HARBURY: Yeah, we're — all of us who have ever lost family members throughout Latin America, whether it be under Pinochet in the stadium or in the dirty wars in Argentina or in Salvador or Honduras, Colombia, Guatemala, what all of us have always been told is your husband, your son, your daughter, your loved one, your sister, your brother, that person was into something political. Perhaps they were a dissident. Perhaps they were a church leader, you know, organizing the people. Perhaps they were a union organizer. Perhaps they were leaders of the groups for the disappeared, in fact, or they were doing civil rights work or anything progressive or dissident in any nature.

What the army would always say is your husband or your family member was into something [inaudible], with the heavy insinuation that they were a Communists, that they were insurgents, that they were rebels, and therefore deserved what had happened to them, that they deserved to be kidnapped, that they deserved to be tortured in secret cells, that they deserved to be flung from helicopters, stuffed down wells, dismembered or scattered across unmarked graves, that that was legal and justified in the context of a counterinsurgency movement by the army and that the army could in fact substitute itself for the courts of law. That's what all of the military dictatorships have been saying for all of these years. That's what the CIA, in fact, has been saying for all of these years.

And what the Inter-American Court of Human Rights, the Organization of American States has just said is, no, it is never legal. It is never justified. There are no exceptions. Every single one of those hundreds of thousands of murders — 200,000 of them alone in Guatemala — has been and always will be completely illegal.

AMY GOODMAN: What about the United States's involvement? Where did the Organization of American States stand on that? You have the Guatemalan military, a White House panel finding in 1996 that the CIA knowingly hired a number of Guatemalan military officials suspected of political assassinations, ex-judicial executions, kidnapping and torture, and used them as paid informants. The panel also concluded that one of those paid officers, a colonel known as Julio Roberto Alpirez, took part in the interrogation and torture of your husband, Everardo.

JENNIFER HARBURY: That is correct. The case that was before the court is the case against the Guatemalan government, meaning specifically the Guatemalan military. We cannot bring the United States into the Inter-American system until I've exhausted legal remedies within the United States. And I still have a major civil rights case pending against close to thirty defendants from the CIA, from the White House, and from the State Department for their participation and collaboration in my husband's torture, murder, and the cover-up that ensued, including the blocking of his rescue. We in fact could have saved his life if they had timely released the information they possessed, including specific bulletins that he was still alive, as were 300 other prisoners of war. As soon as that case is resolved, if resolved positively, we will not need to bring it to the Inter-American system. If resolved negatively, then I can bring the United States forward, as well.

Meanwhile, this ruling has very, very heavy implications, legal implications for routine practices of the CIA. They've always maintained that they have the right to collaborate and participate in certain "dirty practices," because it's a necessary part of information gathering, intelligence work, and "national security work," meaning assassinations. What this case says is that that can never be legal and that none of those practices can ever be legal.

AMY GOODMAN: You have a lawsuit against the FBI and the CIA still pending here in this country?

JENNIFER HARBURY: It's against individual officials in the CIA, the State Department and the White House.

AMY GOODMAN: Charging them with?

JENNIFER HARBURY: In — it's the equivalent of a police brutality case. It's a constitutional violations claim, a series of those claims together with the Federal Tort Claims Act. They basically divide into two categories. One is participation, collaboration and conspiracy to commit kidnapping, torture, and assassination, you know, which boils down to, you know, a police brutality case under the Constitution. They would be due process claims. The other category would be the equivalent of assault and battery under civil law, as well as intentional infliction of emotional harm and blocking of rescue attempts by myself, including fraud, as well, for leaving me out there thirty-two days on a hunger strike when they already knew that he was dead.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, Jennifer Harbury, I want to thank you very much for being with us. Jennifer Harbury, attorney for — well, the widow of Efrain Bamaca Velasquez, the murder of which the decision came down yesterday in the Organization of American States, Inter-American court case, also the attorney for Leonard Peltier.

If people want to get in touch with the Leonard Peltier defense committee, where can they call?

JENNIFER HARBURY: The best line would be the main office in Kansas, which is (785) 842-5774.

AMY GOODMAN: One more time?

JENNIFER HARBURY: (785) 842-5774, and if people would call the White House comments line every single day, Mr. Peltier's life hangs in the balance. He's been in there twenty-five years. His health is seriously deteriorating. If Mr. Bush is going to be president, this is our last chance before Inauguration Day to undo some of the damage that's been inflicted on Native people throughout the hemisphere by the United States government since its inception. We can't bring back any of the dead. None of the 200,000 in Guatemala will ever come back alive, including Everardo. But Leonard Peltier is alive. And we can do something about the harms that our government has inflicted. The White House comments line is (202) 456-1111. Please call every single day and tell President Clinton that you are with him in any stand against the FBI to undo some of the injustices which have occurred and that you want Mr. Peltier released immediately. Please help us. It's one of our last chances to undo one of the most serious human rights abuses in the country in many, many years.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, Jennifer Harbury, I want to thank you for being with us. I know you will be in New York this weekend —

JENNIFER HARBURY: I will be.

AMY GOODMAN: — for the Leonard Peltier march on Sunday that will ultimately be a major rally at the — outside of the United Nations on Sunday at 2:00 in the afternoon, and we'll be reporting on that.

JENNIFER HARBURY: And I want to thank you, Amy, for being one of the few bright beacons of both free speech and free flow of information about world realities and civil rights realities, in specific, in this country. Thank you so much for all of the work you do.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, thanks, Jennifer.

JENNIFER HARBURY: We'd be lost without you, Amy.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, thank you very much for being there, as well.
"<<<<<


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 07:57 PM

""No, it's not any more complex than being shown to be guilty in the first place. If you have the evidence, you get out. If not, you stay in jail.""
Gnu
I believe it is more complex than you allude to. Legal appeals do not have to deal with new evidence. They can and do deal with errors in court.This is indeed complex, and can take years to work out, one way or the other.

Introducing new evidence is no guarantee the court ruling will be considered or the ruling overturned. A new trial can also result. Regardless, I stand by my statement that getting out is an uphill battle, and complex, once you have been found guilty in a court. I am confident the case records would show just that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:06 PM

""speak to the bloody FBI themselves""

Good luck with that. When I called them last, I got a busy signal.:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:13 PM

And just so's you know, it is my opinion there is inherent racism in the FBI. The wrongful imprisonment of Leonard Peltier, who'd they'd been after for some time anyway, him being a leader of the AIM, isn't just about him. It's about the continuing racism that is out there every day against America's Indigenous People.

By keeping Leonard locked up they are keeping their message out there loud and clear, the message which keeps so many American Indians down, depressed and despondant....

If you want me to talk about The American Holocaust, which far outweighs that of the Jewish People in numbers, just ask..If you want me to tell you about the continuing Genocide that is being carried out against them, albeit far more covertly these days, just ask....or better still, find out about it yourselves, for that at least would show you care just a fraction....

America is a country that kills its' prisoners sometimes, even when the evidence is shaky..even when MILLIONS of people shout out to try to stop this from happening, as in the recent case of Troy Davies...It's Justice System is fooked up badly, rotten from the inside out, in many cases...where again, racism reigns..

They took the sacred mountains of the Sioux and carved faces into them of 3 men who had given the orders to have so many Indians killed...Roosevelt just happened to be the President the desigener of Mount Rushmore wanted to impress at the time, but that man was in the KKK....and to this day, that eyesore stands as a National Monument when in reality it is the loudest message ever to the American Indians that their land, their lives are no longer their own...

It's sick..and Mount Rushmore should be stripped of its name and have those faces blasted off, and be given back to the Sioux, along with recognition of all that has happened, plus a National Apology from President Obama to be aired on every radio station, every TV programme, in every school and every shop and office in the Land. Then, FINALLY the American Indians may dare to let themselves believe that true remorse is finding it's way out to them at long last....

That Apology starts with Freeing Leonard Peltier...and until Obama dares to do it, ANYTHING he says will not really come from his heart..


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 09:23 PM

Beyond the case facts, is anyone but me smelling the scent of a conspiracy theory?

Conspiracies
Why people believe in conspiracies


Debunking Conspiracy


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:17 AM

No, it's not just you, Ed.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:34 AM

Not 'conspiracy theories' at all, but yet more words from the former Attorney General about Leonard Peltier's case.

This speech is similar, in many ways, to the 'preface' he wrote for Leonard's book 'Prison Writings'. The truth within them though, is exactly the same.

And yes, I too believe the FBI have so *much* to lose here, were they ever to back down and admit what they've done, that they continue, to this day, to run round like chickens with no heads, in an absolute blind panic over The Truth ever getting out.

Ramsey Clark - Speech

And of course, it's interesting that you guys haven't mentioned ANY of the Indians killed on Pine Ridge, or the escalating violence, from the FBI and others.

Neither have you mentioned the fact that these wonderful FBI folks had threatened to take Myrtle Poor Bear's children away from her, if she refused to lie by saying she knew Leonard Peltier and had heard him say he killed the agents. She had, of course, NEVER met him...

Only when she wanted to tell the truth did they turn around and say she was a totally unreliable witness, thus suppressing The Truth yet again...

It staggers me that you refuse to see....
But hey, it's me who's putting these details down, so no way are you going to agree with anything I say, for 'black' becomes 'white' when it comes to saying "Yes, Lizzie, you're right, this whole case stinks higher than a boatload of rotten fish!"


Anyway, I'll leave you to read, or not, the words of the former US Attorney General and you can say that he too is lying, because ONLY the FBI is telling the truth here, in your opinins...

You poor, misguided fools...


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 04:23 AM

Beyond the case facts, is anyone but me smelling the scent of a conspiracy theory?

Not quite sure what you mean there but I'll say not me.

I'm not convinced of his innocence or guilt but I do believe that he did not receive a fair trial and that the US "justice system" is (at least in this case) not operating as it should.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 04:43 AM

Yes, Lizzie, you're right, this whole case stinks higher than a boatload of rotten fish!

Both Sides

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 06:14 AM

Leonard Peltier is suspected of involvement in four or five other murders, that says it all. I see there is also a petition on Facebook to keep him in prison.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 08:10 AM

John Trudell - The Documentary


Yup, it ALL stinks! The FBI stinks higher than anyone else in all this, as does the Bureau of Indian Affairs...

Above, you can watch the man who has the thickest file in the FBI, a man they regards as hugely dangerous, because 'he is so eloquent'....

Yes, the bastards don't like folks who not only speak out, but who speak out with The Truth!

John's highly respected and intelligent wife, Tina, died, along with her children and her mother in a fire, in which the family were 'trapped' in the house. The BIA did a very limited investigation...WHY?

Needless to say, the FBI were on to Tina Trudell too...

As I said, Dave, there are many hateful blogs out there on the internet about Leonard Peltier. But sadly, they don't have a former Attorney General on their side...they just spew out hatred against him, whilst praising the FBI left, right and centre, never mentioning how the FBI had already killed many American Indians, had infiltrated the AIM, causing terrible distrust, and had been harrassing them all for years......

Not to mention Sovereign Land of course and them being on it without being invited...

Still, I'll leave you to side with the FBI, that wonderful institution that threatened to take a woman's children away from her, if she did not lie for them, and say Leonard killed those men, despite her never knowing him, EVER.



One of the speakers in here, Tina's cousin, almost whispers in disbelief that he does not want to think the FBI could ever kill innocent women and children....

I can believe it....

I had the most aggressive woman I've ever spoken to when I rang them a few weeks back, asking to speak to someone regarding Leonard Peltier, boy did she get nasty!


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 08:47 AM

OK, since you seem to ask what I mean Jon, I am starting to see many of the characteristics present here in the conspiracy theory sites I linked.

This person has had a trial, and appeals of this trial, that were unsuccessful. From that, I suspect it is more likely that he is guilty than innocent. However, there indeed is logic in looking at the case facts to determine if his trial and appeals were fairly delivered and assessed. It is also reasonable to look at credible new evidence, to determine if it could and should be grounds for reconsideration of the verdict. But, all the conspiracy stuff posted (to me) that I have seen is no more than background noise.

Whether celebraties, political or other, or a whole bunch of people who communicate alot feel he is innocent (for one reason or another) has little to due with the facts and determining whether a legal error was made or not.

IMO, dragging a truckload of sketchy and loosely connected broad (conspiracy) stuff into this consideration puts the case clearly into the conspiracy theory field. IMO, it is illogical to connect such loose dots to come up with a conclusion.

People who promote conspiracy theories are most frequently very convinced (and emotional) that their analysis is correct, and agressively shoot down others who do not look at things the same way. They bring in many unrelated circumstances to weave the web of a broad conspiracy. They expect people to believe that government is efficient to deliver in such a broad and long-term conspiracy, with noone from inside coming forward through the years to reinforce this theory. They even try to appeal to your emotion, in this case anti-aboriginal prejudices (that I agree does exist, but I do not agree that it is a significant factor here).

In this case, to believe the conspiracy theory, one would need to buy in to the concept that it involves:

Broad corruption in the USA legal system, with little protest from inside.

Accross the board corruption in USA law enforcement agencies, with no credible person coming forward to prove it.

Fabricating evidence in a legal case and proceeding.

Corruption that has infiltrated the USA legal and political system, right up to USA Presidents.

A widespread and organized anti-aboriginal movement within the USA government that fuels all of this.

I can be convinced to review facts of the case to determine if an error in justice ocurred. If that evidence is present, and a logical case is made this is the case, of course it should be made right. But, bringing in the truckload of other "crap" to prove a conspiracy happened does nothing to promote that case to me. IMO, that approach just makes my "wacko meter" go off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Mayet
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:00 AM

Peltier has NOT been adopted as a prisoner of conscience by Amnesty although they have expressed concern about the fairness of the proceedings leading to his conviction.

The organization has called for his release on parole, one of its concerns being that his extradition from Canada in 1976 -- where he had fled following the shootings -- was secured on the basis of coerced testimony from someone who later retracted it but Amnesty accepts 'the fact that appeals before the courts have long been exhausted'
(There have been several appeals since the original conviction, I'm sure our resident expert can confirm the actual number.)

Amnesty International has additionally called on prison authorities at the Lewisburg Federal Penitentiary to improve conditions for Peltier AND other inmates held in isolation at the facility for prison disciplinary violations. Peltier did escape for a time in 1979 and, according to a Huffington Post article, following the parole refusal in 2009, he also has had numerous infractions in prison, some of them drug-related.

Although Amnesty only supports his parole, unsurprisingly, it is the official well funded site (linked by Jeri) that makes an argument for Peltier's innocence. Unremarkably, there are other sites that make an equally convincing argument for his guilt but it is not my intention to barrage everyone with links they can look up themselves.

Inasmuch as it is not realistic to impart to the murdered FBI Agents Coler and Williams the historical guilt and culpability for broken treaties between American Indian tribes and the U.S. Government it's also equally unreasonable and very misleading to give Peltier the status of 'representative' of all the disposed Native Americans.
There are American Indians like Paul Demain who have investigated the issue of "without doubt," and state "it makes me angry to think we have all been used. But, I can't be afraid to say the King has no clothes."
The Independent Native Journal article

Although questions about the government's handling of the Peltier prosecution has provided fuel (and profit) for writers and film producers who have sought to turn Peltier into a 'political martyr' Harvard law professor Allan Dershowitz, a defence lawyer with liberal political leanings, was moved to describe Matthiessen's book as "utterly unconvincing" and "embarrassingly sophomoric when he pleads the legal innocence of individual Indian criminals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:01 AM

"Still, I'll leave you to side with the FBI, that wonderful institution that threatened to take a woman's children away from her"

I do hope everyone notes there is not one word of regret in these boring ranting posts in defence of this murderer. What about the husband's, brothers and sons that Leonard Peltier "took away" when he murdered them ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:02 AM

They even try to appeal to your emotion, in this case anti-aboriginal prejudices (that I agree does exist, but I do not agree that it is a significant factor here).

I agree with you there. Personally I think the most significant factor is that Feds were killed (and they were going to get someone).

Fabricating evidence in a legal case and proceeding.

This does occur and I think does raise a point from the Wikipedia article about the original trial:

Unlike the juries in similar prosecutions against AIM leaders at the time, the Fargo jury were not allowed to hear about other cases in which the FBI had been rebuked for tampering with evidence and witnesses


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:03 AM

"Amnesty International considers Leonard Peltier to be a political prisoner whose avenues of redress have long been exhausted.
Amnesty International recognizes that a retrial is no longer a feasible option and believes that Leonard Peltier should be immediately
and unconditionally released."

-- Amnesty International, April 6, 1999


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Mayet
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:18 AM

"Amnesty International is appealing for the release from prison of Leonard Peltier, an Anishinabe-Lakota Indian, who is serving two consecutive life-sentences for the murders of two Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agents.
Although he has not been adopted as a prisoner of conscience, there is concern about the fairness of the proceedings leading to his conviction"

USA: Appeal for the release of Leonard Peltier
AMR 51/160/1999
Date Published: 14 July 1999
Categories: Americas, USA


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:21 AM

Conspiracy theories are usually birdbrained and just wrong. Not all of them, though. This one in particular has too much wrong to not be considered at all.

In the United States, one is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. One does NOT have to prove innocence to be found "not guilty". I don't know if he's guilty or innocent, just that the trial was a mockery.

If you look into this case, you may see that the FBI was a little too eager to convict leaders of the AIM and manipulated witnesses and evidence to get that conviction. There was just too much wrong.

I think a review by some court outside the influence of the FBI would be a good thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:26 AM

Leonard Peltier has a history of gun crime,drug dealing and murder. He is also a looney leftist,and a member of a violent American Indian Movement.

He is banged up and that is exactly where he will remain.You can dance around the pole all day and stamp your love, he en't getting out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Mayet
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:31 AM

Guest 999
Russell Means, an Oglala Sioux activist and prominent member of the American Indian Movement, has stated unequivocally

"Everything about Leonard Peltier's case stinks of complete racism. No one including his lawyers argue this in court. Even Amnesty International is racist in not labeling him as a political prisoner."

There are many references for the quote you posted but none from Amnesty International of which I am a supporter and which I do not believe to be a racist organization!


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:36 AM

""Fabricating evidence in a legal case and proceeding.

This does occur and I think does raise a point from the Wikipedia article about the original trial:Unlike the juries in similar prosecutions against AIM leaders at the time, the Fargo jury were not allowed to hear about other cases in which the FBI had been rebuked for tampering with evidence and witnesses""

Law enforcement agencies have fabricated evidence in other cases in the past, (no surprise there) and likely will do so in the future. No conspiracy theory is needed to establish that. What is and is not allowed in a trial is complex, and I suspect is considered differently in different cases and by different judges. If something is not allowed that should have been would be grounds to be considered in a legal appeal. The appeals process considers if evidence should have been allowed, and if itshould have been, and it wasn't is likely to have changed the verdict outcome.

Additionally, IMO, it should not be a surprise that the murder of "on duty" law enforcement agents is considered more significant in the legal system than the murder of the average Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:45 AM

Sorry Ed but to me you are reading like an apologist for a suspect system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:46 AM

""In the United States, one is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. One does NOT have to prove innocence to be found "not guilty". I don't know if he's guilty or innocent, just that the trial was a mockery.""

The operative consideration is "you are considered innocent until proven guilty, by a court of law". Once a court determines you are guilty of an offense(rightly or wrongly determined)in a legal proceeding, the ball is more in the court of the person found guilty, not the governments, to prove that they are not guilty in that there was an error in the legal proceeding, or new evidence has been found (that was not considered in the legal proceeding.

Can anyone point to a case where an international legal body successfully overturned a legal court ruling of this type in any country? I ask that to clearify if this is an actual legal recourse, or just based on internet chatter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:47 AM

Sorry Jon, but I am just being a realist rather than a dreamer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:55 AM

Oh well, each to their own realities I suppose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:37 AM

Mayet: My apologies. You are correct. IF I'd looked further . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:51 AM

""Oh well, each to their own realities I suppose.""

True. One can have comfort in holding their own realities. This comfort zone can even be successfully shared with like thinking people.

However, when these personal realities are brought forward publicly (such as in a discussion forum) to build and promote a case and a conclusion, they face the scrutiny of a wider audience. The logical validity of the case and the conclusion it presents is most often determined by whether it is built on sound foundation, or is based on shaky ground and good old "happenstance".


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 10:58 AM

We'd go around in circles Ed....

Your reading of my comments appears to make me a dreamer and my reading of yours is that you appear to be an apologist for a suspect system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 11:16 AM

You can SAY I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one...
(sorry)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 11:33 AM

Sorry Jon, may I suggest that, based on your last comments, you may have a reading problem?

In a nutshell, if there is a logical case to be made, I am interested. But, if logic is not used to support this case, expect someone to say so. Include me in the "someone" catagory.

Saying that it is a fact that the USA legal and law enfoprcement system is corrupt (ya know it's common knowledge), therefore this guy must be innocent does not pass a logic test.

Just because some parts of the legal and law enforcement system is corrupt, that doies not mean that one can conclude it all is. It does mean that we should build that knowledge into our decuision making process.

Maybe the guy is innocent,maybe the court was right? The proof would be in this legal case, not in another one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 11:35 AM

Oops, decision making process, not decuision making process. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 11:43 AM

Sorry Jon, may I suggest that, based on your last comments, you may have a reading problem?

If you feel it helps you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 11:50 AM

A diagnosis is intended to benefit the patient, not the dispenser. It is there for you to consider, or dispose of, as you see fit, Jon. I wish you well.

:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 12:03 PM

Saying that it is a fact that the USA legal and law enfoprcement system is corrupt (ya know it's common knowledge), therefore this guy must be innocent does not pass a logic test.

But I've not said this guy must be innocent...


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 12:17 PM

Jon:
I don't recall posting that you said that? My comments are broader than you Jon. That's what I mean by the reading problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 12:19 PM

Oh dear...


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 12:34 PM

Actually, Ed. I have gone back and re read what I'd taken as responding to me in your broader contet.

I think I owe you an apology.

Sorry,

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 12:37 PM

context.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 12:40 PM

The summary from a very enlightening and completely unbiased article in The Independant two years ago.

This time, too, you'd have to bet against parole – despite the three long decades Peltier has been behind bars, despite a recent beating when he was transferred to a new prison, despite his poor health. Never has he expressed any remorse for the deaths of the two agents, in which at the very least he played a role. Instead, in all likelihood, he will remain a prisoner of a country he hates, a futile but poignant symbol of a defeated, broken people.

I think there is little else needs saying.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 01:19 PM

Not the final word, Dave. Trouble is,if you know you're innocent it is counter productive to admit remorse for doing an act that you didn't do. What a conundrum.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 01:27 PM

I would say there is a good chance he will get out of prison by the weekend. The US justice system and FBI have to take heed of the comments here. Folk music forums have a lot of pull when it comes to cases like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 01:50 PM

"..Never has he expressed any remorse for the deaths of the two agents, in which at the very least he played a role..."

That is totally wrong.

He has never admitted to this crime, because he did not do it.

He has, however, said how sorry he is for the men who died, and for the families. He has also said that if, in any way, his being in prison, despite being innocent, has given them some kind of comfort, then that is a good thing...

Either get his 'Prison Writings'.....you can hear some of it online, find out about Leonard Peltier and all those who support him for the RIGHT reasons, or.............how can I put this?...shut the fuck up by with trying to make out this deeply Spiritual man, who has managed to stay incredibly strong spiritually, throughout 38 bloody years of bloody bloodiness, is some kind of nasty piece of work!

Thank you so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 02:17 PM

"Holey Jumping Catfish! WHY can you not see what is right in front of you!"

What I see is that this AG SAYS he has the proof but he's not doing anything with it. That's MY point. Can YOU see MY point?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:07 PM

I can only re-iterate what was said by a completely impartial publication as of two years ago -

Never has he expressed any remorse for the deaths of the two agents, in which at the very least he played a role

What I would suggest, if the statement is false, is that the supporters of Mr Peltier take the writer of the article to an appropriate judiciary and, with the money the will win for defamation of character, fund the campaign to free the man.

Seemples.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:12 PM

Oh -SRS - Little more to say was in reference to

a futile but poignant symbol of a defeated, broken people.

Sad but true.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:17 PM

He tried, gnu, as does Leonard's current lawyer. They have all been trying for 36 years now, some have died during the process. Can you see MY point? WHO and WHAT is it that is stopping this gross miscarriage of justice from being put right?

It is Sinister to the point of Evil.
And it is utterly racist too.


"..Never has he expressed any remorse for the deaths of the two agents, in which at the very least he played a role..."

I have to deal with this pile of shite....clear it away and refresh the air, remove the stench entirely.


So, I have copied this out, word for word, from Leonard's book which now sits here on my desk, for it is filled with wisdom and humility, from a great writer.


Taken from 'Prison Writings - My Life is My Sun Dance' by Leonard Peltier



Chapter 3 (to be found on Page 13)

"I have no apologies, only sorrow. I can't apologise for what I haven't done. But I can grieve, and I do. Every day, every hour, I grieve for those who died at the Oglala firefight in 1975 and for their families - for the families of FBI agents Jack Coler and Ronald Williams and, yes, for the family of Joe Killsright Stuntz - whose death from a bullet at Oglala that same day, like the deaths of hundreds of other Indians at Pine Ridge at that terrible time, has never been investigated. My heart aches in remembering the suffering and fear under which so many of my people were forced to live at that time, the very suffering and fear that brought me and the others to Oglala that day - to defend the defenseless.

And I'm filled with an aching sorrow, too, for the loss to my own family because, in a very real way, I also died on that day. I died to my family, to my children, to my grandchildren, to myself. I've lived out my death for more than "two decades now. ("it is now 36 years)

Those who put me here and keep me here knowing of my innocence can take grim satisfaction in their sure reward - which is being who and what they are. That's as terrible a reward as any I could imagine.

I know who and what I am. I am an Indian - an Indian who dared to stand up to defend his people. I am an innocent man who never murdered anyone nor wanted to. And yes, I am a Sun Dancer. That too, is my identity. If I am to suffer as a symbol of my people, then I will suffer proudly.

I will never yield.

If you, the loved ones of the agents who died at the Jumping Bull property that day, get some salve of satisfaction out of my being here, then at least I can give you that, even though innocent of theiri blood. I feel your loss as my own. Like you, I suffer that loss every day, every hour. And so does my family. We, too, know that incosolable grief. We Indians are born, we live, and we die with inconsolable grief. We've shared our common grief for over twenty-three years now, your families and mine, so how can we possibly be enemies? Perhaps it's with you and with us that the healing can start. You, the agents' families, certainly weren't at fault that day in 1975, any more than my family was, and yet you and they have suffered as much as, even more than, anyone there. It seems it's always the innocent who pay the highest price for injustice. It's seemed that way all my life.

To the still-grieving Coler and Williams families I send my prayers if you will have them. I hope you will. They are the prayers of an entire people, not just my own. We have many dead of our own to pray for, and we join our sorrow to yours. Let our common grief be our bond. Let those prayers be the balm for your sorrow, not an innocent man's continued imprisonment. I state to you absolutely that, if I could possibly have prevented what happened that day, your menfolk would not have died. I would have died myself before knowingly permitting what happened to happen. And I certainly never pulled the trigger that did it. May the Creator strike me dead this moment if I lie. I cannot see how my being here, torn from my own grandchildren, can possibly mend your loss. I swear to you, I am guilty only of being Indian. That's why I am here.

Being who I am, being who you are - that's Aboriginal Sin."


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 03:22 PM

"What I would suggest, if the statement is false, is that the supporters of Mr Peltier take the writer of the article to an appropriate judiciary and, with the money the will win for defamation of character, fund the campaign to free the man."

They have FAR more IMPORTANT things to DO!!

You have NO idea how hard these wonderful people are working, on behalf of Leonard, whom they passionately believe in!

I fooking well do....so shove your head BACK up your putrid little arse and get the hell out of this thread, because the internet is filled with enough little turds who seem to think it's a real hoot to try to get Leonard Peltier's name dragged through the mud!!

Show some respect to a man who, for nearly FORTY years, has been put through absolute living HELL, yet decided to not end his life, nor get bitter and twisted, becoming a Pillar of Strength and Inspiration for many hundreds of thousands of people out here, including Madame Mitterand, who died just the other day, who spent many decades also fighting on his behalf, as have many leaders and bloody marvellous people around the planet....

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 04:09 PM

"He tried, gnu, as does Leonard's current lawyer."

Have you any links to the filing of lawsuits in respect of this matter?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 04:35 PM

"He has never admitted to this crime, because he did not do it. "

Were you present at the scene ? LMFAO


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 04:43 PM

Yet again I can only re-iterate what was said by a completely impartial publication as of two years ago - Never has he expressed any remorse etc.

Nothing contained within his own words above has changed that.

I have the upmost admiration and respect for everyone, bar the tiny handful who have proved to me thay do not deserve it. Peltier is not one of those. I am not and will not disrespect him. Maybe some of his supporters may win more respect by being more restrained though, Firing guns in anger often hurts innocent bystanders.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 05:21 PM

Well. Thats a relief...Lizzie has found another crusade. Maybe she will leave the Brits alone now. Sorry for my US friends. It was just your turn.
As for the case involved. I have no view. Apart from the fact that people trust the justice system they live under, or they don't. If they do, No problem, If they don't. Vote the government out. I just can't see that taking any notice of someone living in amother country could ever have any relevance is of any import.
I really don't like the practices of many governments worldwide to be very palatable, Stonings, Beheadings, and what goes on in Zimbabwe, Tibet, North Korea. Is abhorrent.
But, I do feel that ranting on Mudcat is just pointless.
Lizzie, If you feel as you do. Jump on a plane and stand outside the prison with a placard. Then I might give you the benefit of really believing what you write about.
I have no opinion on this particular case...Never met the bloke.
Just feel sad for the victims and their families, whether he committed the crime or not.
America...Welcome to Lizzie world....(At least it gets her off our backs for a while.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 05:31 PM

Amazing how many folks in the UK are suddenly experts in the policies and lives of Indigenous people in the US. One of us spent a considerable amount of time studying American Indian literature and ethnography, and via that, culture, in graduate school. And it wasn't Dave or Bluesman.

Give it a rest.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 05:33 PM

""I dearly love a pasty, a 'ot leaky one"

Poem by Walter F. Gries of Marquette


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 05:35 PM

OK, since you asked, the rest of the tiny poem:)

""I dearly love a pasty, a 'ot leaky one;
With mayt, turmit and taty, h'onyon and parsley in 'un
The crus' be made weth suet, shaped like 'alf a moon;
Crinkly h'edges, freshly baked 'e es alway gone too soon!""

Poem by Walter F. Gries of Marquette


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 05:58 PM

While not as glamerous, and they won't likely link you with celebrity, here are a few causes in the UK to focus attention on, when time seems long:

INNOCENT-the Manchester causes


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 06:02 PM

"Lizzie, If you feel as you do. Jump on a plane and stand outside the prison with a placard. Then I might give you the benefit of really believing what you write about. "


Why stand OUTSIDE a prison, when you can talk to someone INSIDE it?

Why deal with the prison direct, when you can deal with the Director of Prisons?

There are so many things that people can do, if they want to, if they are interested, and AIM are only too pleased to welcome them on board.



Oh...annd I really couldn't give a rat's arse if you 'believe' in me or not.

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 06:17 PM

Yo... anyone got Ramsey Clark's eaddy? I wanna send him an email and ask him why Lee is still in jail and what is being done to get him out of jail.

Of course, if any of youse have already done this perhaps you could share the reply email?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 06:55 PM

Well, I heard back, gnu. Though it seems a bit garbled?

Ed T, What up bruda?!!! How are you Eddie mi man?

It's been runnin a bit overtime since I've been back on the Free-Lee wagon-band. Heyman, heard about my last fight.....Iz been work'in on another planet.Loads of green. It's been tight work papa. Lets get it on again, and keep this train roll'in. Oye, time to get back on this train and gave da FBI-fuzzey-wuzzies a run for da money baby. Da loot is moot. Lee is off on me cause I wuzznt ponding to his Free Lee sails or emails. Anyhow just keep in touch, we'll likely have dis bird flying free in no time.Iz what I do, man.

Keep cool Eddie guy! Take care allright.
DO NOT SHARE The Ware!!

Ramsey clark (knot, or knotty-oye)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 07:21 PM

One of us spent a considerable amount of time studying American Indian literature and ethnography, and via that, culture, in graduate school. And it wasn't Dave or Bluesman.

Thanks heavens for a breath of logic. I have said all along I know nothing of the case or the laws involved. I do not pretend to have the slightest inclination what the American Indian is going though. My own ethnography is Polish and Cossack - Who used to put each other down and have suffered at the hands of every man and his dog! Yet, even though well versed and entitled to I would not dream of inflicting my views on others. Yet some people would take us back to the Victorian times when it was fasinable to patronise the 'Noble Savege'.

Thanks, SRS, for reminding everyone that NO-ONE here knows exactly what was involved. I just wish, for one minute, that others could understand that!

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 07:36 PM

"Yet, even though well versed and entitled to I would not dream of inflicting my views on others."

I fookin' near chocked on that. Warn a guy, wouldja?


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: gnu
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 07:41 PM

Ed... "Well, I heard back, gnu. Though it seems a bit garbled?"

Say what? I'll be honest... I don't read all the posts. When the posts are long I just read enough to find out they are bullshit and don't provide any real facts.

Anyone got any facts, I will read them. As far as anyone saying that someone else has facts that they are not using to free Lee... that's bullshit.

I say... free Lee... get the job done. Stop asking me to sign a petition or donate money. If YOU can free Lee with the evidence you HAVE... why the fuck are you waiting for me to send you money? If you can free Lee... free Lee. If you don't do it today, you are a fraud who simply is looking to fleece people.

Seriously... IF he is innocent and the evidence the AG holds can prove it, why is Lee in jail?

Wait... I asked that question ages ago.

Why am I still here in this thread?

I know, but I am beginning to wonder if it's worth my time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:01 PM

""bullshit""

It kinda took you awhile, now didnit?

:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 09:48 PM

Peltier still refuses to authorize release of the transcripts of the 2009 parole hearing, which details the reasons for the denial, including his criminal activities, bullying and sexual abuse of young males in prison. He has been very concerned about that information getting out. Then you have his lack of an alibi for the days Annie Mae was kidnapped, tortured, raped, photographed as a plaything and then murdered. 5 witnesses put him in the vicinity, Peltier said he can't recall where he was that day as he had been drinking.

From the time he was arrested in Canada, several prisoners said he has been spooked by the ghost of Annie Mae, and of getting caught up in those charges. Wonder why?

Read this account Ms Cornish, "Saint Leonard, standing over the bodies of two young men, moments after their heads were blown off by his AR-15 rifle, while Joe Stuntz models a dead man's jacket: "I seen Joe when he pulled it out of the trunk and looked at him when he put it on, and he gave me a smile." "I didn't think nothing about it at the time; all I could think of was, We got to get out of here." (Matthiessen, In The Spirit Of Crazy Horse, p.532)."


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 04:51 AM

Now isn't that strange...you take that ?'quote'? from a site called 'No Parole Peltier' or some such thing....

Tell me, WHY would the FBI seek to get that book banned then? Come on, tell me, IF it says that in the book, you'd think they'd be overjoyed for everyone to read it. Yet they did ALL they could to stop it from getting 'out there'...

"Curiouser and Curiouser" said Alice, as she stared at the uneasy faces of the FBI in front of her, along with those who supported them....

Then, Alice reached out for her book...and turned to Page 532:

>>>>"Chapter 20
Red And Blue Days

The white people have to surrender their arms to the Great Spirit.

This purification is coming real soon, and all the guns and gold will melt. The holy spirit, the atom, the power of god, will melt those guns and tanks and poison gasses they create......They will be standing by themselves....When the time comes, there won't be no amnesty.

We're going back to the beginning of time....I have no fear, I have no slightest fear whatsoever. Even if I have to face death like Chief Big Foot, it's very beautiful.

We hold the key to eternity, where it is beautiful and it is everlasting for everyone. That's where we're going. We're going home. And finally, we will be back in the Great Spirit's hands again-Grandmother's arms again. She'll cradle us in her arms again." - Wallace Black Elk (Lakota)<<<<



I'd suggest that Max removes your post, for he could well get into legal trouble for allowing that to be on his site.


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 05:01 AM

And that is ALL that is on Page 532, as it is the short 'foreward' to the Chapter, which starts on page 533 and has NOTHING to do with what the racist bastard on this site has written above. Neither do the preceding pages, or those which come after....

Just so's folk know....

"By the time I had turned the final page, I felt angry enough...to want to shout from the rooftops, "Wake up, America, before it's too late!" For Matthiessen, in this extraordinary, complex work, powerfully propounds several disturbing themes which the white majority in America will ignore at extreme peril." - Nick Kotz, The Washington Post

"Mathiessen presents a convincing case not only for a retrial of Leonard Peltier but also for a re-examinatino of the real cost of the American Dream-in human lives, in mockery of justice, in squandered earth." - USA Today


'....Kept off the shelves for eight years because of one of the most protracted and bitterly fought legal cases in publishing history, In The Spirit of Crazy Horse, makes clear why the traditional Indian concept of the sacred inviolability of the earth is so important, especially at a time when increasing populations are destroying the precious resources of our world. '

ALL the above quotes are taken from the outer back cover of the book.

Thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 05:30 AM

I think there are quite a few posts that contain false information. For what it is worth there is nothing at all wrong with my anus.

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 05:41 AM

An excellent blog on Leonard's case and his achievements whilst wrongfully imprisoned


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Subject: RE: BS: Petition to Free Leonard Peltier
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 06:11 AM

"From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 09 Dec 11 - 05:01 AM

And that is ALL that is on Page 532, as it is the short 'foreward' to the Chapter, which starts on page 533 and has NOTHING to do with what the racist bastard on this site has written above."

Oh dear, looks like Ms Cornish is calling me a racist bastard. Will you remove her post. I had "our mutual friend" send it to Max by email. Max did request problems be brought to his attention.

Keith.


    This thread has descended into name calling and bullying. I'm closing it whilst you all cool off.
    - mod -


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 24 May 5:41 PM EDT

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