Why the 'r' between vowels?

Subject: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 02:17 PM

God knows why, but there are currently a lot of British accents being heard in U.S. radio and TV advertising (e.g. the Geico gekko). A number of these speakers insert a 'r' sound between consecutive vowels, which to the American ear can be confusing.

For example, one of these announcers was advertising a business in Napa at First Street, but what he said was "in Napperat First Street." Now, in everyday speech I regard this as an interesting quirk, but in song it can be downright annoying.

One poster recently asked us to critique his new website featuring his wife's singing. Imagine my dismay when I heard in She Moved through the Fair the line "and that was the last I sore of my dear." Not attractive at all!

Is this a regional thing in England? What do you think when encountering it in song?

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 02:22 PM

You obviously haven't made the aquaintance of Laura Norder.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 02:29 PM

Wearing my 'Voice-over Artist' hat, I find it simply sloppy and inexcusable. Then again, given the price dumping going on in the V-O business these days it doesn't surprise me.("Any housewife with a laptop can dash off a v-o in a spare moment.......") Makes you wonder whether these people ever listen to a playback of their takes. At the same time, it doesn't say much for the quality demanded by their clients either.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Barb'ry
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 02:31 PM

It's called intrusive r. It is quite common, particularly in normal 'fast' speech'. I've been trying to say 'Napa at' without an intrusive r and it sounds like I'm saying 'Napat' if I say it quickly without r! Would you leave a pause between the two words to define the word boundaries? As for 'sore of my dear' I agree, it does sound unpleasant!

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 02:51 PM

"Defining word boundaries." Good way to put it.

The word boundary between two vowels can be (should be) defined by a "glottal stop." This is when you stop the flow of air coming out of your lungs by closing your vocal cords for a split second. This avoids the usually unconscious step of inserting an extraneous consonant, such as an "r," between the vowels. Most people do this glottal stop naturally—and unconsciously.

Kind of depends on what you grow up hearing, I think.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: BobKnight
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 02:53 PM

It's a feature of English speech - you won't find Scots using it. As Barb'ry said - it's actually called a rhotic intrusion, or a post vowelic intrusion as it always comes after a vowel sound - such as draw-r-ing, for drawing.

The Scots have other ones like "fill-um," instead of film.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Bert
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 03:30 PM

Why blame the English. Take a look at The New Yankee Workshop and listen to Our Norm make DRORERS.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 03:32 PM

Here in Godzone, they are starting to use an intrusive vowel.
Known becomes 'no-wen.' Never noticed it until a couple of years ago.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Bert
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 03:33 PM

What is worse though is people who leave out the r's altogether.

Like John Denver singing "Countwee Woads"

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 03:53 PM

My wife listens to Radio 2 (Chris Evans) in the mornings. And as I'm in the same car, I can't avoid it.
The one thing which makes the programme bearable is the presence of Moira Stewart, one of the very few newsreaders who pronounces both 'n's in 'government!

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: meself
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 04:06 PM

We have in English something called - wait for it - "accents". People with different accents have some different pronunciations. Many people, even right here on Mudcat, seem to feel that their accent is superior to other accents. Some even seem to feel that having the superior accent makes them superior human beings. They wax indignant at the realization that some of those with inferior accents are not even making an effort to speak like them, to 'improve themselves', as it were. Their opinion of their inferiors slips even lower.

And there may even be those who feel that the collective accents of their nation(s) are superior to those of other nations ....

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 05:09 PM

There's a world of difference between accented speech, and sloppy speech.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Barb'ry
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 06:11 PM

Speaking as a linguist, speech just is - it's neither good nor bad - but that doesn't mean that I find all its varieties pleasant to listen to! Intrusive r is here to stay and it is by no means only 'sloppy speakers' who use it.

When we speak, particularly when we speak quickly, parts of words get elided - merged or omitted completely - that's just what happens naturally. Don mentions that a glottal stop 'should' come at the end of words, but think of 'lie in', 'tied up' - in UK English they would almost certainly be run together.

There are as many variations in language as people on the earth.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 06:34 PM

In my group at work, we had a recent graduate from Sheffield Univ., England and one from Boston, Mass. Both inserted ar 'R' after 'a'.
Alabama became Alabamer, and the example at the top of the thread 'Napar at', would certainly have been used. It eems to be a regional characteristic of a region of central England, and is persent in New England and part of eastern Canada. Some Irish also use the 'r'. This 'r' seems to have been lost to most in other areas of the U.S.

I was taught to either pause, or sometimes use a glottal stop.

Barb'ry mentions lie in and tied up- the first is usually run together in N. Am. English, but tied up has a pause (tie up does).

People do have regional accents- I don't know why they should bother anyone. I'm with meself on this- and accents don't mean sloppy, as John MacKenzie points out.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM

R has got to be the most magical letter in English. Without it, we wouldn't be able to tell where people are from.

Around the English-speaking world, a P is just a P and a K is just a K, but R changes sound, changes location, and changes in strength. It is the poltergeist of the English language.

Q, we were recently listening to a recording of a PG Wodehouse novel and were bemused to note that Bertie Wooster's awful aunt (the one who eats broken bottles) was called Agather. The favorite aunt, Dahlia, had an R that came and went.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 07:05 PM

One from Boston isn't really a fair example, since the characteristic is quite common there among "educated" speakers, and is sometimes called "a Harvard accent."

It was common in the speech of the Kennedys, both the President and Senators. The extra "r"s are taken from places where they should be, so that Harvard is actually pronounced Hawvud, providing two of 'em in just one word - that is used with excessive frequency by those affecting that accent.

The particular affectation is uncommon among "working class" New Englanders, whose patois most resembles a cage full of guinea pigs under some sort of moderate stress, and would be almost completely unintelligible to the general public in broader regions of the US.

The "Harvard Accent" is sufficiently close to what many in the US accept as "cultured British" to have some intermingling of abberations, and is adopted by some public speakers, notably news broadcasters, on the ridiculous presumption that "sounding British" implies some unknown quality of being "socially cultured" and/or the equally preposterous presumption that sounding like one "educated at Harvard" makes them appear "intellectually cultured."

The two deviances are sufficiently similar that most who make a pretense of them don't really know which they're affecting, although they tend to be quite smug about the ability to pretend to either - or often to a mixture of both.

John (not educated at Hawvud, but a little down the road where "those kind" of twits are quite frequently observable)

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 07:27 PM

Hmmm. The news and business broadcasters, and many of the guests on BBC, don't have the accent J in K talks about- they speak excellent English for the most part (except for collective nouns, 'army are' rather than the correct American 'army is').
Some have a little accent, but only those from Scotland or Scotland via Canada (Doucet) have enough to be clearly identifiable. Most are certainly 'cultured English' and they speak good OED English.

Travelling around in England, I heard some barely understandable stuff from some rurals, but I have had the same problem in parts of the U.S.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 07:33 PM

Barb'ry -- yes, I make what I just learned is called a glottal stop (thank you, Don Firth!) when I say something like "Napa at", the same way I would when saying "be easy". It's automatic to me.

John MacKenzie -- who is Laura Norder?

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 07:46 PM

Personally I find glottal stops far more intrusive than so-called intrusive Rs - and am mildly irritated by their current overuse amongst English pop singers. Then again, I come from the English Midlands, where the intrusive R is a normal part of speech and the glottal stop is unheard of. And as a Midlander I've know-ern about all this since I worrat schoo-erl.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 07:48 PM

The majority of US broadcasters apply what here is commonly called a "midwestern" (lack of) accent, simply because it's best understood by the broadest majority of (US) listeners/viewers.

Hard core right wingers tend more toward "Texican" or simple "southern red neck," often in obvously pretentious and phony exaggeration.

The announced subject of the thread was the "deviant few" who affect something different in a specific way.

John

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Bernard
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 07:54 PM

Laura Norder? She's the woman who policemen are supposed to keep...!

Round California the word 'mere' is a name for a looking glass... in Glasgow 'wurruld' refers to Planet Earth...

The British 'standard business accent' (sort of East London, but not quite) blurs a lot of words by turning the letter 'l' into a vowel... for example, 'bull', 'ball' and 'bowl' are homogenised into the same sound... boow (approximately!).

The glottal stop at its worst (thank you, Lily Allen! Too be fair, she does it deliberately for effect) can be demostrated with the word 'glottal' itself - simply miss out the double 't' and replace them with a glo'al stop!

One of my pet hates is traffic announcers who blame hold-ups on 'an earlier accident'... when else could it have been, then?

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: meself
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:13 PM

'The announced subject of the thread was the "deviant few" who affect something different in a specific way.'

It was?

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:21 PM

The Laura Norder syndrome doesn't happen among people with a Welsh accent either. It used to drive my Welsh mother bananas when she heard people who should know better, like BBC news readers, suffering from it.

Ray

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Gurney
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 08:34 PM

Spleen, you must be from a different generation to mine. Raised in Nuneaton, I've never known 'known' to be pronounced that way until recently.

Bernard, I once had a Shop-Steward who persisted in using the redundancy 'At the present moment in time....' It made me grit my teeth, too. Good guy, though.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: BobKnight
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 10:31 PM

My pet hate is "sick-th" for sixth.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:24 AM

The intrusive 'r', which I do try to avoid in my own speech, could nevertheless perhaps be defended as a natural way of avoiding an awkward caesura or hiatus.

In some languages this is an accepted device. Think of French ~~

il est ~ the t is silent. But, when the words are reversed into the interrogative form, est-il?, the t is pronounced.

Aha! you cry; but the t is there in the word, so it may be pronounced in that interrogatively reversed form.

Yes, OK. But then consider

il y a ~~ no t. But in the interrogative, it becomes y a-t-il?

doesn't it ~ by the authority of the Académie française, no less!


Thus, perhaps, by analogy, the intrusive r, for the same purpose of o'erleaping the awkward caesura or hiatus, might on occasion be regarded as an acceptable device? Might not some take comfort from "draw-r-ing" on the model of "roaring"?

Just a suggestion, rather than any attempt to state a rule. I just think it might help with articulacy, or with articulation, sometimes.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 01:02 AM

As Hemingway said, "lets go catch a ghoti."

John

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 01:11 AM

Sounds a bit ghotiy to me. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: gnomad
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 04:05 AM

Hemingway said that? I'm Shaw that I heard it was Bern, before Ern.

But to return to the subject, I don't get to view the adverts from US TV, but would guess that the voice-overs are largely done by your own citizens using what they believe to be 'the British accent', rather than by actual Britons.
Their problem (if there is one) is that accents here are many and various, changing noticeably over as little as a mile distance. Some are decidedly unpleasing, others quite musical. A further problem is that after years of attempting a degree of consistency (BBC English, received pronunciation, educated accent or whatever) our broadcast media have attempted to get wiv it by promoting the use of regional accents without distinguishing them from mere lazy speech patterns affected by the yoof element.

Mind you I get a giggle out of hearing toffs who wish to gain credibility among the unwashed masses they despise, catching themselves about to pronounce a T, and hurriedly gulping-in a glottal stop. Politicians (no names) are particularly prone to this one.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 04:19 AM

Weel, the ither day ah wis gaun tae tak ma libary book back, and it stairtit teemin' doon o' rain. Jings, an' therr ah wis, wi'oot ma umbarella. So ah thocht tae masel, ah'll jist gang intae the flicks, tae see a fillum, an mebbes when ah come oot the rain will hae stopped.
Crivens, it wis Febuary in Glescae, whit else wid ye expect?

Glasgow joke
Man in phone box having failed to get through, called the operator to ask for help.
"Ah cannae get through tae speak tae ma mammy." he said.
The operator replied, "Is there money in the box?"
"Naw ah'm in here oan ma ain" he replied.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: BobKnight
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 04:53 AM

Nice one John. :)

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 05:10 AM

Scotsman has just finished a dinner in a small restaurant, and the waitres asks:
"Would you like a cake, or a meringue?

He replied:
"Yer no rang, I'll have the cake!"

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 06:10 AM

The French do it- y a-t-il
The Irish do it - na hEireann
The Germans drop in a little hesitation when vowels run together.
So why not in English? As has been pointed out, we have the glo''al stop, or the r, sometimes a w (I went to wa party). I think michaels's misapprehension is that he thinks the spelling is the word.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 06:27 AM

Which 'Michael', Paul? -- I take it you mean OP michaelr, and not me.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,loki
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 08:38 AM

what about the never-pronounced "t" our Yankee cousins favour?
As in "I hate going to the dennis"

but this thread has been a lorra lorra fun.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,j-the-l
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 08:39 AM

...it's cold in the winner-time...

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 08:52 AM

@Gnomad et al:

A lot of people commissioning voice-overs demand a mysterious form of english known either as 'Neutral' or 'Mid-Atlantic'. I'm not alone in being baffled as to what this could be. Somewhere on Youtube there are a couple of vids purporting to demonstrate 'neutral english'- the speakers are unmistakeably from North America.....Even if someone manages to speak accent-free, pronunciation will always betray them. Just think of that Fred Astaire song,"You say tomato and I say tomato..."
I think many people here have somewhat missed the point. Everyday speech patterns- 'R' between vowels,obtrusive glottal stops,dialect pronunciations etc.- are all fine and good but do not necessarily belong in commercials,newsreels, documentaries etc. Using a 'british' accent in the USA is something out of the ordinary and therefore it's noticeable when things like 'inter-vowel 'Rs' are present. There comes a point where attention has to be paid to enunciation- and this is where I feel some people are either careless or haven't realised just how they speak.
Then again, proper recording studio facilities are no longer essential, a halfways decent mike, 'garage band' and 'music taxi', a fairly pleasant voice and a willingness to work for peanuts are, combined with customers whose only interest is in quick,dirt-cheap v-os, all that's required in too many cases.
As a UK english native speaker voice artist and musician working in Germany I have a perhaps more critical professional ethos when it comes to enunciation. I try to make sure my enunciation ist clear without overdoing it. However, I'm not perfect! Whilst I'm reasonably certain that my v-os are free from 'inter-vowel Rs', I wouldn't necessarily say that about my singing. If I'm talking to another native speaker then my speech is almost certainly littered with 'inter-vowel Rs', glottal stops etc etc.- in other words,boringly normal.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 08:54 AM

Tom be honest talking about 'correct' pronunciation is as erroneous as talking about 'correct' language, and when you say you dislike a certain accent, dialect, or language you are only betraying your roots and values.

In fact drawing a line between accents and dialects is fairly pointless; it sounds how it sounds and if the pother person understands good, and if not one or both parties will have to try something else.

R's between vowels? What about the Bristol 'L?' The very name of the is is in fact Bristow (Bright Harbour), and that's just how they talk in that areal.

I do personally find some accents harder to understand than others, but they are all as completely valid as each-other, and if people put values on them (one way or another) well, that's what happens. (That said, sometimes I catch myself thinking people are putting it on for effect, and have to remind myself that's just how they talk).

If an accent seems ugly to you, remember that the people who talk that way use it to sing their kids to sleep and whisper endearments.

Tom

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 08:55 AM

Oh and I both commission and do voice overs myself.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Nancy King
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 10:24 AM

In the northeastern US, the "r" sound that gets dropped in one place is often inserted elsewhere, so that an up-to-date parent becomes a "morden fartha."

This compensation sometimes shows up with other sounds as well. My friend Lois says that a teacher she had as a kid insisted on pronouncing her name as "Loyce," and the name of her classmate Joyce as "Jo-iss." Go figure.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 10:42 AM

GUEST,loki, said what about the never-pronounced "t" our Yankee cousins favour?
As in "I hate going to the dennis"

I don't know what "Yankees" you're listening to - are you referring to the entire US or the population that lives in the east, north of the Mason-Dixon line? Either way, I've never heard American native-speakers drop the "t" in words like "dentist."

SRS

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:10 PM

With accents (as with language generally) it's vital to understand they change over time. We're all familiar with hearing cockney or middle class accents on old British films. They were not putting it on, that's actually how everyone in their neck of the wood spoke at the time.

In modern times the 'r' is disappearing from words like 'brought' - I'd suggest that a majority in the UK now routinely say 'bought,' which used to mean quite a different thing. This is not 'wrong' it's just what happens. Witness the words 'walk' and 'talk' which used to have an audible 'l'. 'Vulnerable' is currently interchangeable between both pronunciations. (Mater still says 'goff' for the scottish game, and sodder for that melty metal).

This has been going on for as long as folk have spoke. Listen to Pete Morton doing Chaucer, and remember that the New England accent has changed less since the Pilgrim Fathers' time than has plain English.

So there is no such thing as 'correct' pronunciation - only pedantic (literally) decisions to impose one random accent on the users of another to imply a social standing.

It's slightly different with TV and radio, because here we are trying to reflect a carefully-derived consensus, but in normal speech - and in song - there are no rules, only better or worse understanding (and projected values).

Tom

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:25 PM

Good for you, SRS!

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:30 PM

Tom,

I don't know how many times I have to say this. Cockney is not an accent. Cockney is definitive English in the same way that Parisian French is definitive French. The language spoken in the capital city defines the language, so Cockney is correct English. Everyone else has the accent;-)

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Marje
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 01:27 PM

The question from the OP was a valid query, as it was causing genuine puzzlement. The answer - that the intrusive R is a feature of some English accents, but not those in Scotland, Ireland or Wales - was still worth noting.

As a speaker who neither uses or likes the intrusive R (on the grounds that it is ugly, unnecessary and sometimes confusing) I'll just add that it is not a parallel to the French "est-il" etc ,as the R is not there in either word in the first place, it's just an extraneous sound with no business being there.

A hint of a glottal stop will do the job of splitting up words nicely.
It's quite different from using the glottal stop instead of a T sound (as in "glottal"). Those who think they never use one, though, should check how they say "Gatwick" before they get superior about it!

Marje

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,blogward
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 02:10 PM

Ex-wife used to pronounce 'Ireland' "Ire-er-land". Doesn't drive me nuts anymore, I can tell you.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 02:31 PM

Marje ~~ You failed completely to take my point above, 1224 AM. The t is not there in 'il y a', but it is there in 'y a-t-il?'; explicitly introduced to avoid the awkward hiatus. So the r, e.g. in 'draw-r-ing' on analogy of 'roaring', is a close parallel.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 05:13 PM

I've read with interest all the varied responses. Thanks to all for your contributions!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 05:51 PM

"it's just an extraneous sound with no business being there"

Aha - well might I venture a contrary argument?

Marge, you can't have failed to notice that the way the English language is spelled is chock-a-block with extraneous sounds that have 'no business being there', (not to mention extraneous letters that are equally bereaved).

The reason, as you know well, is that written english is a random ossification of the many spoken versions, which evolved over the past thousand years or so. Spelling is based on all manner of temporal and regional variants, many of which display only tenuous connection with 'RP' (and may never have done so - being an attempt at rendering quite a different set of sounds) and even less with other accents and dialects.

The 'r' sound referred to in the OP is one such variant. It's not represented in the spelling and not perhaps a very common one, but it's a valid pronunciation none-the-less.

It's not really fair to call it bad English or ugly. It's just the way some people talk.

Tom

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Joe_F
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 06:21 PM

The very idear of it!