Why the 'r' between vowels?

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Guest TF
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 07:26 PM

In Glasgow there is a tendency towards that idear. Not long ago there was an ad for a couch retailer in Scotland; the voice over referred to them as "sofars". However we have not reached the Scandinavian level where there is an attempt to disregard all consonants. A town in Denmark called Sonderberg is known all over the country as Suawa.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 04:10 AM

Strange, if you don't pronounce it, ' forty farzend fevvers in a frushes froat ' you are speaking in some kind of accent Bert ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Marje
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 04:22 AM

Michael: OK, point taken, although in fact both inversions and liaisons are beconming rarer in French.

And Tom: English abounds with letters that no longer contribute to the sounds of the spoken word, but it's very rare to have a sound that isn't represented by any letter (even if the letter sems to be the wrong one, as in "cough"). The intrusive R is out on its own, as far as I know, and it's quite a recent feature of spoken English.

And yes, it's just the way some people speak, and I can't insist that it's wrong just because that's not how I speak. That doesn't mean I have to like or endorse it.

But another thing I notice about this, for what it's worth, is that speakers who use the "intrusive R" are generally among those who don't use the "rhotic R" - that's the R that can be heard (or not?) in words like car, bird, sort, in most areas of the English-speaking world. It's almost as if some speakers are getting so muddled or careless that they have only the vaguest idea whether the word they want is "saw" or soar", so when they need to add "-ing" they just say "soaring" for both. It's this aspect of apparent carelessness that makes it sound lazy and unpleasant to my ears, quite apart from the fact that two unrelated words can end up sounding the same when they needn't.

Marje

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 04:24 AM

No, Bert is mistaken. Cockney is the dialect of the artisan and banausic areas of East London. Essex & S Middlesex are variants of it from parts of Outer London. The standard London accent is a form of what is called RP [Received Pronunciation] or BBC English ~~ the neutral usage of the educated throughout Southern England.

~M~

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 04:32 AM

"Muddled, careless, lazy, unpleasant"? Where's my time machine? I think we've gone back to the 50s! ;-)

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Dazbo
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 04:53 AM

Being born and raised in Middlesex I'm used to being mocked for drawring (and after thirty odd years of it I still don't think I put an R in it) but to me, in my ignorance, Napa and Napper are homophones. It's just the long Ahhh sound of the letter A (like Bahhth, which foriegners (i.e. not NW Londoners and surroundings) seem to add an R at the end when it's really an H.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 05:06 AM

I hear what you're saying Marge, but I'd dispute that the 'r' sound is new. It may be increasing in use perhaps, but that often happens to a pronunciation. The 'r' has been long present in many accents, specially to the west of England. I often quote the lovely Lancastrian waitress who asked us if we wanted 'pepperrrrr on out pizzerrrr.' And I've already mentioned the Bristol 'l' which arrived in much the same way (though has yet to catch on elsewhere).

As for your 'muddled and careless' point, this again is no more than linguistic evolution. Once 'wright' and 'rite' were pronounced very differently, but no-one calls this conflation careless now. I'm personally saddened by the loss of 'brought,' but I accept why it's happening.

RP was evolved for social reasons. BBC English was born out of it, but it's adoption was for a different reason. When you are broadcasting to a poly-accented nation, they felt a need to settle on a from of speech that most would understand - and to an extent that is still true. If you want to be understood by those who do not share you 'natural' accent, it makes sense to make conscious compromises. But that does not mean that the adopted accent - which will itself evolve over time - is any more 'right' than one's own.

It's not even a class thing, necessarily. Note the silent 'h's of 'an hotel' (in Bayswater) and 'an 'otel' (in Essex). And also untin shootin fishin and shoppin.

Tom

(~M~ I think Bert was joking).

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 05:13 AM

Is this a regional thing in England?

Not that I am anything like an expert, but I think the phenomenon may have been originated by non-rhotic speakers of little literacy who assumed "r"s where there were none. Like so many fashions, this one may have moved upwards on the social ladder. -

What strikes me with some American accents, is the usage of "r" to include the preceding vowel. "At rprts thr r two kinds of frnrs: trsts and trrrsts."

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 05:32 AM

My first wife was a native of the Forest of Dean, in Gloucestershire on the borders of S Wales; and retained some of her native accent throughout life. She did not insert r's where they do not exist, but would always pronounce them where they do: so that she would pronounced 'board' and 'bored' identically, but 'bawd' differently from either; whereas those brought up to London-style RP like me would pronounce all three in the same way.

~M~

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 05:50 AM

........and accents don't mean sloppy


That may depend on your point of view. I remember listening to some plummy voices, on BBC Radio 4, waxing lyrical about rich rural dialects while, at the same time, condemning, out of hand, "sloppy" urban accents.

I suspect that the speakers would have had displayed the same bias if they had been discussing the 'traditional' terms used by those of more senior years versus newer, and thus 'sloppy', words used by modern youth.

The important thing with any communication is:
Is it understandable?
Is there any possible ambiguity?

Of course, elegance in grammar and pronunciation is a goal that should be strived for but, if it meets the two criteria above, then rules are for guidance. A good understanding of the rules is required so that you know which of them may be bent or broken.


DC

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 06:03 AM

I agree entirely Doug.

Grishka, I don't think we can be sure that anyone 'assumed "r"s where there were none.' It's perfectly possible that this sound (it's not an 'r' actually, just sound like an 'r') predates spelling, and could for all we know have been a majority pronunciation in England at some time - it's just that it's not reflected in the way scholars decided to represent spoken English using the Alphabet.

Another change seems to be senior politicians deliberately (or it is?) dropping their aitches and glottle-stopping their tees. It may have begun with a ploy to unplum, but if enough people in the Westminster Village do it, it may become the norm. And TV may spread it wide, so that in time it will become 'common' (or rather 'uncommon') to use an 'h' or 't' altogether.

Just a thought

Tom

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Rebecca Fox
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:16 AM

OK, well I am the singer in question who inadvertently sparked off this debate, which I have to say is quite fascinating and I have enjoyed reading.

I believe that the added 'r' is entirely a result of my accent and comes about due to a combination of two reasons. Firstly, when I say 'saw' in isolation the 'w' is silent, i.e. I do not put any degree of 'wa' on the end of the word. This means that for me the word effectively ends in a vowel. Secondly the words 'saw' and 'of' run into each other without any break. The 'r' sound, which is in fact not a true 'r' at all since my teeth are nowhere near where they would be for a deliberate 'r', is what ends up being produced in the transition between the two vowels. I accept that could sound ugly to some people's ears, but I don't think it is anything to do with laziness or sloppiness, it's simply a feature of the way my accent works (Worcester, West Midlands btw).

To me, one of the wonderful things about most of the folk singers I know is that they do sing in their own unadulterated accents. If I was singing something classical (as I used to) I would put in a glottal stop to alleviate the 'r' sound. However, my own personal view is that when I am singing folk songs I should freely use my own natural accent and voice as far as possible. Oh well, at least I am not using a fake American accent like most British pop singers! :-P

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: BobKnight
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 08:27 AM

No body has mentioned aspirating the wh sound. Whales had become wales, wheels becomes weels, whether is now wether. This leads to a lot of spelling mistakes where people are spelling as they speak.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,George Colorado
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM

I'm from New York originally. Jamaica Avenue is always pronounced Jamaiceravenue.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 12:12 PM

MtheGM

Nah.BBC English is quite modern. Before steam radio, Cockney is what was spoken by Londoners;-)

Oh and don't miss the ;-) this time.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 12:58 PM

Why the 'r' between vowels?

Why not?

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 01:16 PM

Sorry Bert: tend not to notice emoticons, just regard them as a bit of Mudcat landscape.☺☺☺

Just a NW-Londoner of very little brain, that's me, me ole cock-sparrer!

〠〠〠〠

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 01:34 PM

To be a little bit pedantic- surely Cockney is actually an Argot- a special slang created and used by thieves and the like to keep the forces of lornorder in the dark.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 01:47 PM

That's Cockney rhyming slang, I think you mean, Don.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 01:51 PM

Don, I think that you are thinking of Rhyming Slang which was mostly used in the building trades. Another London Slang used by Butchers and Grocers is Back Slang.

Cockney is more like MtheGM says "that's me, me ole cock-sparrer!"

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 02:00 PM

No, Bert is mistaken. Cockney is the dialect of the artisan and banausic areas of East London. Essex & S Middlesex are variants of it from parts of Outer London. The standard London accent is a form of what is called RP [Received Pronunciation] or BBC English ~~ the neutral usage of the educated throughout Southern England.
To be a cockney one has to be born within the sound of Bow bells

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 02:04 PM

That was the original condition indeed, Dick; tho the category has been extended up to a point [see wikipedia]. It is also not entirely clear whether the bells of Bow Church, a bit further east than Mile End from Aldgate, or those of St Mary-atte-Bowe in the city constitute the qualifying peal.

~M~

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 02:08 PM

Either way, I doubt if their sound would quite carry to 38 Compayne Gardens NW6, South Hampstead near Finchley Road Station and a fraction N of Swiss Cottage, where I was born ~~ but, just perhaps, if all the traffic stopped and the wind was in the right direction!?...

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 02:20 PM

'As I explained to you all before' BBC English is that NEW STUFF that came along when Aunty had to speak in a style that would be understood by a wide audience. It is sometimes called "Educated Southern English".

Cockney is (and was, long before the BBC)spoken by the people of London. That is, in or around the City.

Essex has a dialect all of it's own. Remember that old invoice for taking care of a horse "A fetchinonim, a feedinonim, and abringinonimomeagain."

I don't know about S. Middlesex but most people in the Greater London area now speak some version of Cockney and can be recognized as Londoners.

Each of the Home Counties used to have it's own accent, which can still be heard in some villages.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 02:28 PM

Well, I suppose 'most people' is accurate, in that the working & lower-middle classes still predominate numerically. But it is not the dialect of middle/upper-middle/upper-class Londoners; whether in the City or the more innner or outer suburbs.

Or did you forget your :) this time? Tssk! Write out 50 times, "The emoticon is an essential attribute to irony".

☺☺〠〠☺☺

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 02:37 PM

I would have thought that most readers would have guessed by now that I am having fun. But just because the wealthy few speak with an accent, that doesn't mean that Cockneys do!


☺☺〠〠☺☺

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM

You might be having fun Bert, but I remember one public school educated person I met some years ago who was adamant he didn't have an accent.

In fact he had a real "hooray henry" accent. He just couldn't get hold of the idea that his mode of speech was as much an accent as anyone else's.

Oh and Cockneys definitely have an accent. Ask any Northerner ;-)

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 05:27 PM

Does being Free of the City of London make me a cockney?

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: michaelr
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 09:25 PM

Y'all are just fucking with me now... ;-(

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 04:19 AM

Ask any Northerner.

Wye eye Man!

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 05:01 AM

What about the "intrusive" y then? I'd pronounce "he only" as eeyoanlee. (Sorry, I can't get IPA script on my computer!)

As for "l" being pronounced as "w", this happens because pre-vocalic and inter-vocalic "l" (e.g. list, taller) is a light "l" and is, to the best of my knowledge, always pronounced as what we would recognise as "l", whereas post-vocalic "l" (e.g. wall) is a dark "l". They are two different sounds phonetically, and many British English speakers (especially southerners like me!) don't naturally have the dark "l" in our "phonetic set", so we'd substitute a "w" sound (e.g. baw for ball).

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Marje
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 05:38 AM

I'm sitting here muttering sounds to myself: *he only... heeyonly.." (wouldn't it be good if we could hear each other!) I think the "intrusive y" is simply a transitional sound that emerges when the mouth moves from ee to oh. (There is probably a proper term for this but I can't remmber what it is.) The only way to avoid it would be to use a slight glottal stop, and this is what some speakers do. The intrusive r is a bit different, as many speakers manage perfectly well without using either the R or the glottal stop in, say, "I saw a .."

The L is another interesting case. Scottish speakers, for instance, make little or no distinction between the light and the dark L, so a word like "little" has two very similar sounds, and "call" has the same L as "calling". What interests me about this is that there was once a corresponding sound-shift in French, so words like "beau" and "belle" were once the same or at least much closer, and "chateau" is related to "castle" (the French dropped the s sound and we dropped the T); and nowadays, a Londoner might well lose the L sound when saying "castle", pronouncing it "cassow"". It makes me wonder whether this sound-shift in south-eastern England in in some way connected to the French one, since they're geographically so close?

Marje

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 05:51 AM

What about the 'foklksinger's 'n''

Le(n)t, Tou(n)ght, Tou(n)ch and all that


I remember someone saying while listening to Tim Dennehy sing 'Keep in Tounch' that he wouldn't recommend him singing that Cat Stevens song because it would come out really odd.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 09:50 AM

"He just couldn't get hold of the idea that his mode of speech was as much an accent as anyone else's." My wife one time said that what annoyed her about Star Trek was that all the aliens had American accents - which wasn't believable. I asked her what kind of accents aliens should have! She reckoned that they should speak like her because she doesn't have an accent! She comes from Norfolk though doesn't have a Norfolk or other regional accent but anyone would know straight away that she was English because of her accent. yet she insists she doesn't have one! :-)

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:34 AM

What about the intrusive W As in schoowel

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Tootler
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 04:36 PM

"Wye Eye"

or if you're of a mathematical bent

Y_i

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Tinker from Chicago
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 05:10 PM

The disappearing T is what bothers me most in American radio and TV, especially with sports writers. Routinely they'll talk about an inneresting trade at the winner meetings (do losers have their own meetings?), perhaps between Toronno and Atlanna.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Seonaid
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 07:08 PM

You can argue for English or French all you want.
But for unpronounced letters, the best ever is Gaelic.
One of my favorite examples is "bhitheadh," pronounced "via".
(BTW, the extra "R" that started this discussion was obviously inserted by pirates.)

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 08:07 PM

"One of my favorite examples is "bhitheadh," pronounced "via"."

All the letters are pronounced, or at least contribute to the final pronunciation!

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 08:50 PM

"My wife one time said that what annoyed her about Star Trek was that all the aliens had American accents - which wasn't believable. I asked her what kind of accents aliens should have!"

Yes, I think it was my first wife that commented, while watching "Morons from Outer Space", on how funny it was that an alien (in this case Jimmy Nail) should have a Geordie accent. I think I asked her a similar question to yours, Allan!

"What about the intrusive W As in schoowel"

Well, is that an intrusive "r" or an intrusive "e"?

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Bert
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:08 PM

Or the J in schedjewel

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: Marje
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 04:46 AM

That "j" is another of those transitional sounds that are difficult to avoid, because the mouth passes through the shape of that sound between two other sounds. You get in words like "duty" (juty), "dubious" (jubious) etc, because the speaker keeps the tip of the tongue on the palate just a bit too long. It can be avoided but it's easily done if you're speaking hurriedly or carelessly.

I can't quite hear what the "folksinger's N" is in my head, but it may be a feature of the nasal "Mummerset" style of delivery that is favoured by some singers - not so much an extra consonant as a nasalisation of the vowel.

Marje

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 05:26 AM

The folksingers 'n':

Keep in Touch

Examples in the lines:

Don't le(*)t pained indifference occupy the heart @ 1.08

..our thou(*)ghts they are as one... @1.22

..keep in tou(*)ch.. @ 1.30


And I use this example only because I am reasonably familiar with Tim's singing so it was easy to lift an example. It's something I hear a good few singers do, Christy Moore for example but others could be heard doing this as well. It's not something I mind or dislike but it is something I notice.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 06:07 AM

Singers' or speakers' own regional accents and dialects are of course exempt from any criticism.

The "folksingers' n", which I had not noticed before reading this thread, is quite a different phenomenon. Judging from the examples mentioned by Peter, I guess that it is used to avoid "unnaturally" long vowels. Whenever a vowel is followed by m, n, or r, Tim Dennehy spends the rest of the note with it, after a very short vowel. Thus, the n is a "liquidisation" of the t-sound following it. This effect is well known, normally very short, and so is the corresponding short m before p or b. (BTW: since the original Greek b is now pronounced v, the Greek use "mp" for the b sound in foreign words.)

In my personal opinion, some singer-songwriter's idea of sounding "heartfelt" rather than "artificial" (= vowels of full length etc.) is of questionable taste. A song will always be art, good or bad.

The "opera singers' m and n", equally questionable, are applied at the beginning of notes, usually high ones, to test the intonation and to reach the correct pitch by a glissando. The idea is that a consonant need not be in pitch - not all listeners agree.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: matt milton
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 06:48 AM

Must admit, while I have to be pedantic about the meanings and spellings of words for my job (sub-editing/proofreading), it never occurs to me to be similarly pedantic about how people speak.

I can't see that one can possibly cordon off "sloppiness" from accent: "sloppiness" is what dialects and accents are predicated upon. "Sloppiness" in this context is simply an ideologically charged synonym for "variance".

Like most discussions concerning rectitude or etiquette (of anything at all), this one revolves around class. When I do my weekly volunteer reading session with local primary school kids, I'm well aware that the Afro-Caribbean (in the main) pronunciation of "asked" as "axed" that a lot of the kids use would count against them in a job interview in the industry that I work in.

You've got to know, for strategic reasons, what other people consider to be right and wrong. But you've also got to know that those people are pedants whose pedantry is a mask for protecting their own kind against meritocratic incursions (such as improving A-level results from state schools).

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 06:51 AM

Good post, Matt.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 07:16 AM

No. 'Sloppiness' in no way = 'variance'. 'Sloppiness' is the failure to communicate articulately within whatever variance one might be working within. There are those who speak with clarity, and those who fail to do so, among speakers of any accent.

~M~

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: matt milton
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 07:32 AM

I would agree with you that it's sloppy if you fail "to communicate articulately within whatever variance one might be working within".

But that's not what happens if you insert an "r" between vowels: you are still communicating articulately.

Describing this kind of thing as "sloppiness" (or a "barbarism" or an "aberrance") is overkill, and ultimately unenforceable anyway: it's everyday use by people. You can moan about it all you like but at the end of the day, once enough people do it, it becomes correct by default.

I suspect most dialects and accents owe something to "sloppiness". What is elision, after all? Whenever I'm in France, I'm struck by how many English words clearly came into being by simply being "sloppy" mispronunciations of French words.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 07:33 AM

But that assumes that accents are absolute in some definable way.

You cannot draw boundaries round accents. They are affected by many things, some learned in the cradle, some changed deliberately, some as a result of the way one's head is constructed, or what one watches on TV, or how a partner speaks, or where one moves to.

Some people do speak 'sloppily,' but that 'sloppiness' may be common to a community, making the 'sloppy' accent a small but valid subset of what you might accept as a 'proper' accent. Furthermore, as I said earlier, like language, accents are constantly evolving and developing over time. This 'sloppiness' part of that process.

Matt is so right. If you want to avoid being thought of as 'sloppy,' and/or you want to be understood, you may need to change how you speak for certain listeners, but that doesn't mean that your natural accent is 'sloppy.' Just that someone else may not be able to understand it, or may put you into a box that you'd rather not be put in. It's up to you.

Subject: RE: Why the 'r' between vowels?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 07:36 AM

I don't moan about anything, Matt. I simply dispute your equation of the sloppy with the variant; an analogy which just will not hold up. They are entirely discrete entities.