Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?

Subject: Lyr Req: Hop Along Peter
From: Mackinaw
Date: 28 May 01 - 11:53 AM

Hey! I used to sing "Hop Along Peter" years ago, but mainly played it on the fiddle. Ah needs the words so ah kin sang it! Thanks!! Send words e-mail to:

[e-mail]

Thankyew!

Subject: Lyr Add: HOPALONG PETER
From: Pene Azul
Date: 29 May 01 - 02:02 AM

Found Here
(email sent)


HOPALONG PETER
(Traditional)

Old Uncle Peter, he got tight
Started up to heaven one stormy night
The road being rough and him not well
He lost, his way and he went to ...

Chorus
Hopalong Peter where you goin'?
Hopalong Peter where you goin'?
Hopalong Peter won't you bear in mind
I ain't comin' back 'til the gooseberry time

Old mother Hubbard and her dog were Dutch
A bow-legged rooster and he hobbled on a crutch
The hen chewed tobacco and the duck drank wine
The goose played the fiddle on the pumpkin vine

[chorus]

Down in the barn yard playin' seven up
The old tomcat and the little yellow pup
The old mother Hubbard she's a pickin' out the fleas
The rooster in the cream jar up to his knees

[chorus]

I've got a sweet gal in this old town
If she weighs an ounce she weighs seven hundred pounds
Every time my sweet gal turns once around
The heels of her shoe makes a hole in the ground

[chorus]

Subject: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: babypix
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 01:09 AM

You GOTTA be kiddin'!

Looking up "Hop Along Peter" for music licensing purposes, and came across two (!) citations: one attributing the song to Wade Mainer, the OTHER, to Sterling Sherwin and Harry McClintock. I've never heard Haywire Mac sing or be attributed to writing this song. Anyone care to posit a guess-- according to Lyle Lofgren, this song seems more likely to be derived by Fisher Hendley (Aristocratic Pigs). Oink? Anybody? Mark Ross, are you there?

Kindest regards,

Deborah Robins-Hanks

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 01:24 AM

Hi, Deborah -
I don't think I'd believe a Haywire Mac attribution, but J.E. Mainer seems possible.
Here's what the Traditional Ballad Index says:

Hopalong Peter

DESCRIPTION: Nonsense song. "Old mother Hubbard and her dog were Dutch/A bow-legged rooster and he hobbled on a crutch/Hen chawed tobacco and the duck drank wine/The goose played the fiddle on the pumpkin vine" and similar verses.
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1937 (recording, Mainer's Mountaineers)
KEYWORDS: nonsense animal chickens drink wordplay
FOUND IN: US(MW,SE)
REFERENCES (2 citations):
BrownIII 160, "Get Along, John, the Day's Work's Done" (1 text, of only three lines, but two of them correspond to this song)
Cohen/Seeger/Wood, pp. 104-105, "Hopalong Peter" (1 text, 1 tune)
ST CSW104 (Full)
RECORDINGS:
Fisher Hendley & his Aristocratic Pigs, "Hop Along Peter" (Vocalion 04780, 1939, on CrowTold01)
J. E. Mainer's Mountaineers, "Hop Along Peter" (Bluebird B-6752 [as Mainer, Morris & Sherrill?]/Montgomery Ward M-7131, 1937)
New Lost City Ramblers, "Hopalong Peter" (on NLCR10, NLCRCD1)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Hallelujah"
cf. "Johnny Fell Down in the Bucket" (technique)
cf. "I'll Rise When the Rooster Crows" (lyrics)
cf. "Hannamaria" (theme)
NOTES: Although most people who hear this song probably think this is about a lagomorph, probably a rabbit (thanks to Beatrix Potter and Peter Rabbit), this may not be the case. Pamela J. Chance of North Carolina knew about it from her father, Winton Lewis Chance of Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan (born July 27, 1920); his version gives the chorus as
Hop along a PeeDee, Hop along a PeeDee,
Where you goin'? Where you goin'?
She notes the following:
"[Winton Chance] was taught this song by his father, Floyd Alden Chance of Indiana when Win was a boy. Win's mom's name was Alma Nellie (Weber) Chance. The family lived in Napoleon, Indiana where they ran the general store and then moved to Muncie, Indiana. Alma ran a pie shop in Muncie from their home.... on the edge of the Ball State University campus. Floyd's side of the family was English, (possibly Scottish) and Alma's side German. Germans use the name 'PeeDee' or�'PeeDee�dinks' for a small frog."
This might indicate a German origin for the song, but a similar word in fact occurs in English; according to Alexander Warrack, The Scots Dialect Dictionary, Waverly Books, 2000, p. 397, a paddock (also spelled puddock) is a frog or toad. There is even a version of "Frog Went A-Courting" titled "Puddy He'd A-Wooing Ride." So an original in which the word was "peedee" or perhaps "paddock" or even "paddy" is not unlikely, with that form later corrupted to "Peter."
A number of verses to this song rely on the "unexpected final word." For example, a common first verse runs
Old Uncle Peter, he got tight,
Started up to Heaven on a stormy night.
The road being rough and him not well,
He lost his way and he went... to...
(Chorus)
Hopalong Peter, where you going (x2)
Hopalong Peter, won't you bear in mind
I ain't coming back till the gooseberry time. - RBW
Last updated in version 2.5
File: CSW104

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Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: babypix
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 01:28 AM

Hiya, Joe-- I agree about the Haywire Mac connection seemingly terribly unlikely-- A prior Mudcat discussion on this song lists the following:

The U.S. Catalog of Copyright Entries lists HOP ALONG PETER, copyright filed by Fisher Hendley of Columbia, SC, in 1939.

That seems right to me, in light of Lyle Lofgren's research and other comments.

Is it gooseberry time yet?


Thanks for all this info.

Warm regards,

Deborah

Subject: Origins: Hopalong Peter/Hop Along Peter
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 01:33 AM

I've rarely found Mudcatter Richard "Richie" Matteson to be wrong. he claims the song dates back to about 1875, which would put it in the public domain. Here's what he says on his Bluegrassmessengers Website:

Hop Along Peter- Version 1 J. E. Mainer 1937

Hop Along Peter Old-time song and fiddle tune; Attributed to Frank Dumont ARTIST: J. E. Mainer's Mountaineers; Bluebird B-6752 as Mainer, Morris & Sherrill- 1937 CATEGORY: Fiddle and Instrumental Tunes DATE: c. 1875 Frank Dumont; First recorded in 1937 by J. E. Mainer's Mountaineers, "Hop Along Peter" (Bluebird B-6752 [as Mainer, Morris & Sherrill]/Montgomery Ward M-7131. RECORDING INFO: J. E Mainer and his mountaineers 1936; Fisher Hendley Group, 1938 Happy Valley Boys 1940; Ebenezer. Tell It To Me, Biograph RC-6007, LP (1975), trk# 12; Fink, Cathy;, Duck Donald and Peter Paul Van Camp. I'm Gonna Tell, Likable 02, LP (1980), trk# 11 (Hopalong Peter); Highwoods String Band. Fire on the Mountain, Rounder 0023, LP (1973), trk# 4 (Hopalong Peter); Hills, Anne; and Cindy Mangsen. Never Grow Up, Flying Fish FF 671, CD (1998), trk# 11 (Hopalong Peter); Old Timey Songs for Children, New Lost City Ramblers, 1959; Folk Festival At Newport, Volume 2, Various Artists (New Lost City Ramblers), 1959; Fire on the Mountain, Highwoods String Band, 1973; Early Years, 1958-1962, New Lost City Ramblers, 1991; Not For Kids Only, Jerry Garcia and David Grisman, 1993; Run Mountain, J. E. Mainer, 1997 Fresh from the Market, Mitch & Eileen Rice, 2003 Fisher Hendley & his Aristocratic Pigs, "Hop Along Peter" (Vocalion 04780, 1939, on CrowTold01); J. E. Mainer's Mountaineers, "Hop Along Peter" (Bluebird B-6752 [as Mainer, Morris & Sherrill?]/Montgomery Ward M-7131, 1937); New Lost City Ramblers, "Hopalong Peter" (on NLCR10, NLCRCD1) RELATED TO: Who Broke the Lock [on the Henhouse Door] OTHER NAMES: Hopalong Peter; Get Along, John, the Day's Work's Done SOURCES: Meade; Erbsen, Wayne. Erbsen, Wayne / Manual on How to Play the 5-String Banjo for the com...., Erbsen, sof (1974), p27; New Lost City Ramblers. Cohen, John, Mike Seeger & Hally Wood / Old Time String Band Songbook, Oak, Sof (1976/1964), p104 (Hopalong Peter) BrownIII 160, "Get Along, John, the Day's Work's Done" (1 text, of only three lines, but two of them correspond to this song); Cohen/Seeger/Wood, pp. 104-105, "Hopalong Peter" (1 text, 1 tune) NOTES: Typical lyrics include: "Old mother Hubbard and her dog were Dutch/A bow-legged rooster and he hobbled on a crutch/Hen chawed tobacco and the duck drank wine/The goose played the fiddle on the pumpkin vine." Similar lyrics are found in the old-time song, "I'll Rise When the Rooster Crows." According to Meade, Hopalong Peter was written by Frank Dumont before 1875. He sites numerous printings of it in the 1800’s. Currently Dumont's song has not been available on-line. “Frank Dumont (1848-1919), tenor singer, author of many sketches, plays, and songs, and the last of the old-time minstrels, was born January 25, 1848, in Utica, New York. His career as a minstrel began early, for in the autumn of 1862 he was with Arlington and Donniker's Minstrels in New York City, and in 1866 was one of the partners in Cross, Fish and Dumont's Minstrels. The next year he joined Ned Davis' Minstrels. He was with Dashington and Kling's Minstrels early in 1869, but later in the same year joined Duprez and Benedict's Minstrels, and with them he remained nearly ten years. In 1877 he played at the Bowery Theatre, New York, in "In the Web." Later, he was with Carncross in Philadelphia. He was with Sweatman's Minstrels in 1879, with the San Francisco Minstrels, in New York, in 1880-81, and still later with Lew Dockstader. He removed to Philadelphia in 1881 and remained there until his death. In 1895 he became the proprietor of the Eleventh Street Opera House in Philadelphia, where, after January 27, 1896, Dumont's Minstrels gave negro minstrel performances exclusively. When the Opera House was sold in 1911, he became owner of the Dime Museum at Ninth and Arch Streets, in the same city. He altered it and changed its name to Dumont's Theatre. He personally acted as interlocutor with his company until his retirement from the stage, Christmas, 1918. His last skit was being played at his theater, March 17, 1919, when he died suddenly of heart failure in the box office. His wife, Nellie Winton, died May 28, 1939.” Hop Along Peter was first recorded in 1937 by J. E. Mainer's Mountaineers, "Hop Along Peter" (Bluebird B-6752 as Mainer, Morris & Sherrill. The song is sometimes played as a fiddle solo but the tune is usually played on fiddle between verses in a string band format. Here are the lyrics to Hop Along Peter from J.E. Mainer: HOP ALONG PETER Bluebird B-6752 as Mainer, Morris & Sherrill- 1937 (Fiddle) Old Uncle Peter, he got tight, Started up to heaven on a stormy night. The road being rough and him not well, He lost his way and he went... to... CHORUS: Hop along, Peter, where you *going? Hop along, Peter, where you going? Hop along, Peter, won't you bear in mind You ain't a-comin' back till the gooseberry time. (Fiddle) Old mother Hubbard and her dog were Dutch, A bow-legged rooster and he hobbled on a crutch. Old mother Hubbard was a-pickin' out fleas, Rooster in the cream jar up to his knees. CHORUS: (Fiddle) Out in the wood yard playing seven-up, Old mother Hubbard and a little yellow pup, Hen chewed tobacco and the duck drank wine; The goose played the fiddle on the pumpkin vine. CHORUS: (Fiddle) I've got a sweet gal in this here town, If she weighs an ounce, she weighs seven hundred pounds, Every time that sweet gal turns one around. The heel of her shoe leaves a hole in the ground. CHORUS: (Fiddle) CHORUS: *gwine

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: Stewie
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 01:48 AM

Earliest dates given by Meade et alia, 'Country Music Sources', are 'Frank Dumont before 1875', 'Wm Courthwright's Flewy, Flewy, Flew Songster (1875)' and Old Yankee Robinson's Comic Songster (1875)'. Meade gives numerous other 19th century references. [Meade et alia p473].

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: babypix
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 01:52 AM

Zounds! That's pretty compelling stuff, Joe. We'll go with this unless someone else wants to come out of the woodwork and refute it!

Best,

Deb 'n' Larry

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 01:56 AM

...and Stewie is every bit as credible as Richie, so you have double verification....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: babypix
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 02:00 AM

Thank you one and all. Time to hop along off to dreamland.

Warmest regards,

D & L

Subject: Origins: Hopalong Peter
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 02:31 AM

Here's an article by Bob Waltz (Traditional Ballad Index) from a website called

Remembering The Old Songs:

Hop Along Peter

by Bob Waltz

(Originally published: Inside Bluegrass, August 2001)

As I was typing Jerry Barney's transcription of Gentle On My Mind,I couldn't help but notice how unusual the song is. Each verse is a whole sentence! Although it's going somewhere, it sounds very stream-of-consciousness.

This style is, to put it mildly, very rare in traditional song; I can't recall any other piece with that sort of long, drawn-out stanza. But there are many songs, especially in American tradition, with a sort of "stream-of-consciousness" feel -- something happens, then something else happens, and there really isn't much connection between them, or much point either.

Such songs are often humorous, sometimes bawdy, sometimes dependent on wordplay. (You need something to keep the listener's attention, after all, when the song doesn't have a plot to help you along.) The trick in this first verse is common; Bob Bovee and Gail Heil, for instance, have a song called George Washington which relies on the same trick, and Vance Randolph has a political song along the same lines. Less suitable for publication is the song family called Bang, Bang, Lulu (given some of the verses, I'm rather glad I don't know Lulu, or her duck -- or the song, for that matter).

Hopalong Peter isn't very widely collected, and I suspect that means it isn't very old. There seem to have been two recordings on 78s: By J. E. Mainer and by Fisher Hendley and the Aristocratic Pigs. (Until I discovered the Mainer version, I thought Hendley might have made this thing up. Lyle Lofgren tells me that the Mainer version sounds to be derived from Hendley; maybe my first reaction was right.) The Hendley version was recorded by the New Lost City Ramblers, who put it in their songbook (the only version in print, to my knowledge). I've heard other recordings (I think I first heard it sung by Roxanne Neat and David Stoeri), but they all seem to go back to the NLCR version.

I still think the song was slapped together by someone; most songs of this type repeat the wordplay, but this one has only the one verse where you expect a word and don't get it. The missing word probably seemed much more scandalous eighty or ninety years ago; maybe they didn't dare repeat the trick.

The NLCR version puts fermatas in the music all over the place. They slow down particularly at the end of the first verse, to make sure you get the point.

The music as I hear it in my head differs a bit from that in the NLCR songbook -- notably in the chorus; they show the words "where you" as being sung to an A note, I hear an F#. Lyle says he learned it with an A note. For safety, I've shown both.

You could obviously add a lot of nonsense to this song if you had the mind. Or maybe it would be easier if you were out of your mind.

Complete Lyrics:
Old Uncle Peter, he got tight,
Started up to heaven on a stormy night.
The road being rough and him not well,
He lost his way and he went... to...

CHORUS:
Hop along, Peter, where you going?
Hop along, Peter, where you going?
Hop along, Peter, won't you bear in mind
I ain 't comin' back till the gooseberry time.

Old mother Hubbard and her dog were Dutch,
A bow-legged rooster and he hobbled on a crutch.
Hen chewed tobacco and the duck drank wine;
The goose played the fiddle on the pumpkin vine.

Down in the barnyard playing seven-up,
The old tom cat and the little yellow pup,
The old mother Hubbard, she's a-pickin' out the fleas,
Rooster in the cream jar up to his knees.

I've got a sweet gal in this here town,
If she weighs an ounce, she weighs seven hundred pounds,
Every time my sweet gal turns once around,
The heel of her shoe makes a hole in the ground.

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: Richie
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 09:09 AM

Hi,

I put my version on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5kAzSQ__rU

Richie

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: babypix
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 12:27 PM

Thanks, Richie-- it's a lovely one!

Deborah

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: PHJim
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 01:23 PM

I taught elementary scool for thirty some odd years starting in 1967 and taught this song to every class. I learned it from a NLCR album.

About10 years ago Zeke Mazurek and I played a house concert. A couple of kids asked Zeke if he knew any weird tunes and Zeke started singing Hopalong Peter while playing his fiddle like a mandolin. He was surprised to hear me put on a harmony and play along with him. Neither of us had played it for about 8 years, but we added it to our repertoire that night.

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: babypix
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 07:39 PM

PHJim-- yep, it's big fun, that song, any way you slice it!

Best,
Deborah

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 08:18 PM

I sing the first line of the second verse "Old mother Hubbard and her dog went Dutch" instead of "were Dutch". "Went" is what I thought I was hearing when I got the song from a Highwoods Stringband recording about 30 years ago. Maybe they sang "were" and I misheard, but I think the idea of Old Mother Hubbard and her dog going Dutch (going on a date in which each person pays his/her own way) adds to the nonsensical humor of the song. Their simply being Dutch adds no such humor.

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: babypix
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 05:54 PM

@ Bee-dubya-ell

I must respectfully submit that I disagree with your assessment here. I believe that being "Dutch" or "in Dutch" is old colloquial parlance for "broke" or "out of money". Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Kindly,

Deborah

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 06 Nov 11 - 09:21 AM

I think I heard Norman Block and Nancy McDowell singing this at Blackpool Folk Club in the Raikes Hotel (Blackpool, Lancashire), late '70s or early'80s? I couldn't have remembered it from just one hearing, so it might be on the LP I bought at the time?

Ross

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: GUEST,Pam
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 09:43 PM

Bee-Another possibility is that according to my father (deceased), Winton Chance, a PeeDee is a German name for a frog. So, Dutch might refer to Deutch as in German. Just sayin".

Subject: RE: Origins: Hop Along Peter + Haywire Mac?
From: PHJim
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 01:11 AM

Just reading over this old thread and I'm surprised no one's given me shit for saying that I taught "scool" for thirty years. I do know how to spell school...honest.

The "New Lost City Ramblers' Song Book" gives Fisher Hendley credit for this song and dates it in the mid-30s.

The NLCR Songbook has been re-released with a title "The Old Time String Band Songbook" or something similar.