BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating

Subject: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 12:50 PM

In a world which claims to have progressed past the Stone Age, why is this cruelty allowed to continue?

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 12:51 PM

Money.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 12:55 PM

I can't watch it but I wouldn't ban it, let the barbares have their gladiators... but I agree, yuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 12:59 PM

Steers don't volunteer.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 01:02 PM

I used to enjoy it in my youth. My old man was a big dan as he was a very boxer in his youth until he took a bullet in the shoulder and I learned to like it from him. I have avoided it for many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: olddude
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 01:05 PM

When I was a kid I enjoyed it. Money and greed destroyed it as a sport and today I could care less. After several boxers were killed in the ring I too decided it was time for it to go by way of the horse and buggy days.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 01:07 PM

I'm with 999, You can't call it cruelty when they do it to themselves.

I'm long past that phase myself. But if you understand a young man's natural instinct to test and display his own courage and prowess against others, boxing is quite understandable.

It is interesting to watch, and in many ways, no more "cruel" than any other art that requires a high level of self sacrifice, such as ballet.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Tunesmith
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 01:11 PM

I've competed in lots of sports but boxing was the hardest.
It takes so much courage just to step in to the ring.
Of course, I wouldn't like my children/grandchildren to get involved with it.
But while it's here, I admire those guys more than any other sportsmen.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 01:14 PM

I certainly admire the smart ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: olddude
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 01:18 PM

I blame the refs more than any other. Many of the fights should have been stopped but they let them continue. Maybe today they have fixed that but I have watch so little of it that I don't know. The great era of boxing was truly a sport ... I lost interest when it became pay per view and the refs not doing their job and boxers being killed ... I did see Manny fight on TV. Only interested because I think he is probably the best fighter lb per lb in the last 100 years or so. My opinion. I don't follow it at all anymore except when I see the results of his fights.

No longer care much about it

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 01:39 PM

The refs are hired and paid by the promoters and managers. They have always been chastised for stopping fights "too soon." It is understandable for a boxer to think he has a chance and to want to take a chance on his health even when injury is likely. I think Ali is the best example of that.

Look at the first Rocky film, a simulation to be sure but, I believe very telling. I don't think there is much doubt that even the most careless real world ref would have stopped that fight in favor of the champ way before it went the distance. Yet in the audience, we were certainly not cheering for Rocky to listen to his manager and throw in the towel. I remember even then thinking. "If this was a real fight that guy would be damaged." Of course once Sylvester Stallone became famous one realized that it would be difficult to tell whether the fight had caused damage of if that was just Sly. But I digress.

With due respect, Old dude, I beg to differ. I never blamed the refs. I blamed the fans, the sport and plain old human nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 01:47 PM

So it's OK for two people to beat the shit out of one another for your enjoyment is it?
How many boxers come from a well off background? They nearly all come from a poor background, where they have no hope of making their way in life by any other means.
For those who aspire to a Socialist way of life, surely boxing should be top of their list, to be abolioshed.
After all if you eradicate poverty, then there will be no need for men to suffer possible brain damage, in order to feed their families.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 01:53 PM

They can clean toilets or drive a truck to feed their families. They box for praise and adulation and in our society for the possibility of becoming wealthy.

I don't at all aspire to a socialist way of life. But in their time some of the best boxers came from the Warsaw Pact and Cuba. They didn't have to box to feed their families.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 02:26 PM

if i ever meet John Mckenzie, i will give him the silent box.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 02:32 PM

If you make it illegal, it will just go underground.

And be a hell of a lot nastier.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 02:49 PM

John... I agree.

But, I feel compelled to comment on Dan's "I blame the refs more than any other." Yup. The reffing in boxing has been apalling for years. Absolutely disgusting. Far from the actual rules... even the commands that have been used for decades have been altered. The unwritten rules can be enforced or not enforced depending on who is "supposed to win".

Now... let's take this one step further... WTF is this Ultimate Fighter shit? They put two guys in a cage and there is no ref? They can do ANYTHING they want except bite or whatever. When are we gonna see biting allowed? It's not "just" boxing anymore with some kinda rules. It's UNreal. I say it's time to ban the whole works.

Yeah... I know... ya shouldn't tell other people what to do. But, if we are to move beyond violence as a world, this is a good place to start to teach (y)our children the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: kendall
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 02:57 PM

I used to be a huge fan of boxing. Did some myself, but I also thought the three stooges were funny. Funny how time changes things.
I couldn't care less about either of them now. One is barbaric and the other just stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 03:03 PM

And vice versa? (No typo.)

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 03:18 PM

Dick you are living proof of the fact that there is more than one meaning of the word box!

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 03:37 PM

I don't go to boxing matches nor do I watch them on TV. Too many people get hurt badly. That is the nature of fighting. As Gnu said, when a guy is hit hard and disoriented, stop the damned fight. Michael Watson: coma for over six weeks, six brain surgeries and permanent partial paralysis. Davey Moore: dead a few days after the bout in 1963. Benny Paret: eighteen hits in six seconds, died as a result of his injuries in 1962. There are more. I don't know what that kinda shit is, but it ain't sport, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 03:43 PM

Who killed Davy Moore
How come he died and what's the reason for?

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Tunesmith
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 03:47 PM

Well, I wouldn't do it. Apart from the scrabbled brains, punching a hard bag is going to give you real arthritis problem; however, it is better controlled than years ago. For example, if you watch fights from the 50s, you would be amazed how refs let fight go on well after they would have been stopped nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 03:51 PM

Look...this is simple. If ya don't like boxin', don't watch it!

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Tunesmith
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 03:56 PM

One of the daftest rules in boxing is that - when the action is taking place - only the ref can stop the fight; of course, in reality, if a corner man throws in the towel, a ref would be stupid to ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 04:06 PM

"punching a hard bag is going to give you real arthritis problem"

Yup. My right hand don't work worth shit these days. And it wasn't just a punching bag. Don't see real good outta my right eye either. Boxing is just what the title of the thread says it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 04:07 PM

I'm with 999, You can't call it cruelty when they do it to themselves.

True, Bruce, but ya sure can call it stupid.

Lets bring back all the old-time gladitorial contests while we're at it- OH WAIT! we've got "cage fighting".

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 04:54 PM

I can quite understand why some people find it revolting John. I feel that way when fights are allowed to continue for too long. On the other hand, men will always want to test themselves and it is something you can not legislate out of the human condition. Moral outrage has always been a poor advisor to legislation. It would lead to the same catastrophic consequences as it did in the cases of prohibition, the "war on drugs", outlawing of gambling and the outlawing of prostitution.
I once asked a German what he thought would happen if prostitution were outlawed in Germany. "Would there be one fewer prostitutes?" "No", he replied instantly, "but thousands more pimps!".
Like it or not, boxing is part of the human condition. If you outlaw it, it will go into back rooms and outside any legal control at all. In many ways it is a corrupt and ugly business, but making it illegal would not reduce the damage one bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 05:45 PM

To me boxing is a sport of the past. Yes it was brutal but it was also very popular. The saddest part is that many past greats ended their days impovershed and damaged after lining the pockets of promotors, managers, and fair weather friends. Some like Marciano knew when to walk away, but he was the exception; not the rule. That is why I rate him higher than Ali or Louis but of course it is all very subjective.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 05:52 PM

Greg, I made two posts (now three) to this thread. Here they are.

1) Steers don't volunteer.

2) I don't go to boxing matches nor do I watch them on TV. Too many people get hurt badly. That is the nature of fighting. As Gnu said, when a guy is hit hard and disoriented, stop the damned fight. Michael Watson: coma for over six weeks, six brain surgeries and permanent partial paralysis. Davey Moore: dead a few days after the bout in 1963. Benny Paret: eighteen hits in six seconds, died as a result of his injuries in 1962. There are more. I don't know what that kinda shit is, but it ain't sport, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 06:03 PM

"Who came to us from Cuba's shore
Where boxing ain't allowed no more"

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 06:48 PM

Jeezis, Bruce, I'm sorry - I was responding to JTS's mis-quotation of what you said. Showsd what happens when ya don't read the small print.
I wasn't paying attention- Apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: BTNG
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 07:02 PM

Well said, Chongo, well said!

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: kendall
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 07:34 PM

Ramos probably killed Moore, but the way he connected with the bottom rope may have done it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: gnu
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 09:25 PM

But simply "not watching it" is allowing it to happen... it should not happen. It's inHUMANe. It's simply wrong. I (we?) am disgusted by dog fighting... cock fighting. If we(?) are, why are we not disgusted by human fighting?

Yeah, I know I used to enjoy watching fights and I boxed, but I grew up and I now know that it is simply... wrong.

Chongo... wanna put yer weiner dog up fer bait in a dog fighting training facility?

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 09:44 PM

Well, people do do some dumb stuff... Boxing is just on of them... I boxed as a kid... Heck, them were the days when you'd square off with yer best friend, duke it out and then go get a burger... Big deal... We all boxed... Yeah, okay, it had it's drawbacks: busted hands, black eyes, busted lips... Big deal... Who cares???

Went down to DC when I was 15 or 16 and end me and my buddies all entered the Golden Gloves tournament... $5 and a forged parent's signature... Lotta fun... I made it to the 3rd round... My buddy, Llyod Shelton, made it to the finals before losing... Art Buckner??? He could flat out box... He took his weight class... We had a ball... It weren't no different than playing football...

So boxing itself has a bad rap...

Professional boxing??? Purdy dangerous and much different then just going down to DC and have a couple fist fights...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 10:26 PM

Funny this should come up. Just yesterday (or was it the other day??) NPR was ruminating at how they don't cover boxing much. I thought, WTF? Of *course* not. Your audience is *not interested* in it, that's why!

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Nov 11 - 10:36 PM

No problem, Greg. Not to worry. Was just letting you know. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:42 AM

Real bit of chimp-logic from Chongo, I fear. I don't watch much rape or atomic warfare or mugging or murder either; but I don't think they should be tolerated, still less encouraged.

Not an expression of opinion on the subject of the thread as such, as to which I find self in that increasingly frequent can·see·both·sides·buggerit frame of mind. Simply disagreement as to the 'well-saidness' of the inimitably opinionated Chongo's contribyoosh.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: kendall
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 06:47 AM

Maybe with a bit of retraining we could get all those boxers into chess tournaments? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 06:16 PM

Used to box ABA myself. Really enjoyed it and so did all the other lads.

Obviously, strict regulation around safety and the point of boxing (not punching the shit out of the other lad but landing contact through his guard and earning points) always need reinforcing same as in any sport and the pressure in the professional game can ruin it just like football and cricket suffers.

McColl's radio ballad "The fighting game" takes me back in a very nostalgic way.

If you don't understand, don't automatically think your sanctimonious stance makes you look clever. The only thing nauseating here is reading your withering diatribe.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 07:03 PM

Steamin' Willie, I've lost as many as I've won. I wasn't the best fighter y'ever met. But I do know what you mean.

The 'art' of fighting is beyond many people. (If the knocks I took are any indication, they were beyond me too!) That said, and although I was never a boxer, I loved the intensity of a match, the need to do what I had to do, and the afterthought of why I won or lost.

I do not engage in 'combat' anymore when it isn't needed, but I do engage in the afterthoughts. What you wrote makes sense to me, but it likely won't to many.

What's that you guys say? Keep yer chin tucked in. That, and the rest of yer body.

Good one.

#########################################

BUT, boxing was never meant to be a fight to the death, and when it is, imo, the refs have screwed up. I like the Olympic rules: first blood = end of fight. Half the time it would have saved my life, the other half someone else's. Works for me.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: gnu
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 07:17 PM

I was brought up on it. I enjoyed it. I boxed. I actually can watch a PROPER boxing match today and enjoy it IN A WAY. But I still think it should be banned. It just ain't right... is it? If we don't let dogs fight, why do we let children fight?

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 07:31 PM

Mackenzie- Boxing not allowed in Cuba?
Cuba seems to be dominant in amateur boxing. They are strong in the Olympics.
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news/mollet1709.php

I agree with the title of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 07:39 PM

Just quoting lyrics Q

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 08:08 PM

There are two pro boxing threads going on at the moment. I am anti boxing, so I started this thread to put my point of view. You are welcome to agree or disagree, all I ask is that you extend to me a little courtesy, by respecting my viewpoint.
Perhaps one might also find your critique more acceptable if you didn't add gratuitous personal remarks at the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: kendall
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 08:16 PM

They should wear headgear.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: gnu
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 08:18 PM

I don't understand that last post, John.

In any case, I have contributed to those other threads. Seems like a contradiction but I chalk it up to the fact that I USED to follow boxing and was rather knowledgeble about the sport but then fell out of sorts with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: gnu
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 08:34 PM

Kendall... "They should wear headgear."

I did VERY well as a lad in headgear. NEVER defeated. Took the headgear off. Got the shit beat out of me. I have EXTREME peripheral vision because my eyeballs protrude slightly from my eye sockets. I can see stuff WAY further to my sides than most people but I can't see shit when someone smacks me in the eyes. Me old man said to keep my head down but I said... "My eyes hurt! Fuck that!" Thus ended my career in the ring.

It never was a "career", of course. It was just a sport I should have never been involved in.

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: GUEST,999
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 08:49 PM

Anyone who's ever fought KNOWS yer a damned fool NOT to wear head gear. Jacques Plante taught all of us that. I saw a picture of the dents in his mask. Translate that to a heel kick or back fist, and you'll know what I mean.

There's a difference between win/lose and stupid.

IMO

Subject: RE: BS: Boxing; cruel, primitive & nauseating
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 12:31 AM

John MacKenzie, the start of this thread is not at all expressed respectfully, especially as an answer to another thread. Demanding respect from boxing supporters after calling them hypocritical cave men makes you look pretty hypocritical. It is also very disrespectful of the memory of the eulogized boxer, Joe Frazier.