M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:11 PM

Brian Peters: I said "good for him" because he was serious about folk. He was also a self-opinionated insufferable bully to a lot of people. It is inconvenient, but the world is not completely divided into goodies and baddies.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:36 PM

Not disagreeing with any of that, Greg. That 'serious about folk' bit is one of the things I respect about EMC.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:39 PM

McColl's polarising effect, even after all these years, is quite striking.

Regards

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:51 PM

From the programme blurb. "He (MacColl) called it "The Critics Group".

He didn't. The name was coined by Charles Parker in response to the group's technique of mutual criticism and accepted via the consensus of the whole group. I'm not going to get off my backside at this time of night and check. However, I'm fairly sure that if the producers had bothered to check Ben Harker's biography of MacColl, or Set Into Song (Peter Cox's book on the radio ballads), they would have found the same confirmed.

I'm beginning to understand why this programme caused so many problems.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:19 PM

"The name was coined by Charles Parker"
Quite true - the group were doing a benefit concert for the Co-op and they needed a name in a hurry for the publicity - Charles pulled CG out of his head on the spot. Vitually all members later agreed that it was a rotten name that in no way described the group's work.
"Ewan seemed to assume that if they weren't doing it his way, they were doing it wrongly!"
Not the way he workeed or thought; it was an internal way of working for the group, not aimed at what was happening elsewhere - suggest you read (above) what Peggy had to say about the way Ewan worked and thought - and contradict her if you don't believe her.
It is true that standards in the revival were higher in the sixties than they are now, but I got thoughroughly sick of Alex Campbell and his clones telling audiences that their out-of-tune guitars were "near enough for folk song" - eventually the slogan caught on IMO, so much so that you can now read arguments on this forum that seeking to raise standards is detrimental to the club scene as they putt the lesser-talented off.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 02:03 PM

Hello all and Happy New Year

I thought you might be interested to know that we have a large set of Ewan MacColl/Peggy Seeger collection tapes, including the Critics Group recordings, here at the British Library, donated by Ewan and Peggy back in 1983. They have been copied onto CDR and can be listened to onsite at the BL. They are not available online thus far. Go to the catalogue, do an advanced search on "C102 and critics group", then select tape from the format drop down menu. This will select all the tapes in the MacColl/Seeger Collection (C102) that relate to the Critics Group.

This link will take you directly to the advanced search page:

http://cadensa.bl.uk/uhtbin/cgisirsi/?ps=d9nn7EHE23/WORKS-FILE/35230354/38/30026/X/BLASTOFF

Thanks

Janet

Dr Janet Topp Fargion
Lead Curator, World and Traditional Music

The British Library
96 Euston Road
LONDON
NW1 2DB
http://www.bl.uk/wtm

T [phone]
F [phone]
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: stallion
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 02:06 PM

the "guest" way back was me, cookie now reset

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: stallion
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 02:08 PM

What i find interesting is that most people wander about with headphones on or listen to radio et al, before the electronics did people sing or whistle all day long?

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 02:11 PM

you can now read arguments on this forum that seeking to raise standards is detrimental to the club scene as they putt the lesser-talented off

Well, we've raised this spectre before, Jim, in one way or another. I don't believe that most people on this forum really believe that raising standards is detrimental. The argument, IMO, appears to revolve around how to encourage people to be better and more focused without being authoritarian.

One point which has been raised earlier by Dick is that, in the '60s, the standards in most folk clubs - by todays standards in some folk clubs - were very high. I can't recall, for example, anyone ever bringing in, much less using, music stands and folders in clubs in those days. It was a very competitive and crowded scene and, if you didn't shape up, you just didn't get a spot.

If my recollection is correct - and I stand humbled if not - then what and where were the poor standards that MacColl was aiming to raise? And by what standard did he judge? The programme didn't touch on this.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 02:22 PM

AND we never used microphones ;-)

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 03:08 PM

If my recollection is correct - and I stand humbled if not - then what and where were the poor standards that MacColl was aiming to raise? And by what standard did he judge? The programme didn't touch on this.
   an excellent point, I reckon he was trying to steer singers in a certain direction, his direction, now in some ways that was not a bad idea because he was a good singer and song writer,but it meant that right from the start the project was doomed, because the pupils grow up and want to fly in a different direction.
the point is that standards did not need to be raised , I mean can you imagine Derek Brimstone and ralph mctell and wizz jones,AND Gerry Lockran and John Foreman, and Ian Campbell shambling on stage and forgetting their words.
MacColl felt he could help ,other singers sing the way he wanted them to sing , to interpret British traditional songs his way., its not a bad starting point, but when the birds have learned to fly they have to fly their own way.
finally I must deal with Martins comment about political songs, yes its fine when we agree with the politics,and I agree with Ewans politics, but the majority of us do not feel its fine when the British National party try to hijack folk music., so its only ok when its the politics we agree with.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 03:16 PM

Will Fly* wrote
"I can't recall, for example, anyone ever bringing in, much less using, music stands and folders in clubs in those days."

... and nor can I and I must have been going regularly to folk clubs for over 15 years before I saw one. I was horrified the first time that I saw it and still consider it unacceptable. When new singers turn up at our club with their huge volume of song words - complete with stand - and sit and study them carefully - generally to the detriment of paying attention to other performers, I usually have a sharp comment for them such as "Have to come to read us a song?" and they go to the bottom of my list of people that I will give a floor spot to. Luckily, we usually have far more good floor performers than we have time for - even at one item each. The residents put their heads together at the interval and decide who will perform in the 2nd half. The criteria is always who we consider can perform best and offer variety to our paying audience. The only exception would be to ensure that newcomers get a go and also to put a good performer at the top of the list if we have left them out on a previous visit.

A few years ago we had a blind singer amongst our regular supporters. Unlike most people who came out the front to sing, he understandably stayed in his place and sang his unaccompanied song with bags of authentic style from his regular seat behind a table. One evening, I went up to him to thank him for singing and added that I found it remarkable that he knew so very many songs and never forgot a word. His sightless face broke into a huge grin as he pulled a sheet of braille out of pocket. He told me that he always used his braille song sheets under the table and that I had never noticed!

* The alter ego of Will Fly is Mike Ainscough. He is booked at our folk club in Lewes on January 26th in the company of Alan Day. Knowing Mike as I do, I now fully expect Mike to turn up on that evening and wave a book of song words in front of my face... the bugger!

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Acorn4
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 03:28 PM

We had about 15 years out of the folk scene before returning and can confirm the observation that the music stands and word folders had appeared some time during that interval.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 04:03 PM

I am not sure about these statements about standards of performance being higher in the 1960s that they are now. In general, the younger generation of performers have blown away previous ones in terms of their musical instrumental standards. There are plenty of bad singers around now - but then there were plenty of bad singers in the 1960s.
What these earlier times did have was a sense of excitement, of innovation, of purpose that the scene has lost as it has matured. It has also lost that naivety that was part of its charm.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 05:15 PM

Vic, depends how you define bad, in the sixties they were not bad in one sense they did not need music stands and words so interaction with the audience was[IMO] better.
Is the music about high performance of technique instrumentally, no it is not, some of the high technique instrumentalists,sound on occasions jaded or bored and on occasions do not interact with an audience.
IF I listen to PADDY IN THE SMOKE I hear the sound of musicians enjoying them selves, What hear is I enthusiastic enjoyment of music making, i do not hear musicians who are doing yet another gig who are doing it because its their living and it has become just another gig, which can occasionally happen to every professional musician.
technique for technique sake is a cul de sac, good technique is useful only if it helps the performer express his musical,emotions better .
Ewan by introducng vocal exercises was attempting to enable the singer to be as best prepared ,so that they could do justice to the
song, it is not dissimiliar to professor alexander and his performing techniques

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Arcane Lag
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 07:24 PM

"I can't recall, for example, anyone ever bringing in, much less using, music stands and folders in clubs in those days."

The Coppers have brought music books for as long as I can remember

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 07:54 PM

The Coppers are the exception that proves the rule. I am appalled by the numbers of people who turn up in pubs with their collection of songwords downloaded off the internet that they bury their noses in. I reserve the right to make sarcastic comments. What kind of message are you giving out if you sit there saying"I can't even be bothered to try to learn one song"?

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 03:04 AM

What about those who now have their words on their I-phones or whatever they are now called! I had a chap in front of me in a club recently who was continually perusing his Blackberry for the words of a song and when he got up to sing it was a two verse throwaway piece.
I never saw MacColl resorting to visual aids.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 03:26 AM

I've actually seen a sea shanty done from a phone - hilarious!

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 03:34 AM

When I was a kid going to church I sometimes closed my hymn book during a hymn, just to show off the fact that I'd sung those words to that tune so many times that I knew them both backwards. Now, my memory is good, but it's not superhuman, and most of the congregation at those services had been singing those same hymns for a lot longer than I had. At a conservative estimate, half the people there knew the hymns just as well as I did - and yet they still went through the motions of opening the book and finding the right page. I imagine this was partly in case they did forget a word, partly because it was what everyone else was doing, but mainly because they'd been doing it for so long that not doing it would seem snotty and ostentatious.

I think something similar is going on when the Coppers use their book. Put it another way, hands up everyone who thinks Bob Copper didn't know Thousands Or More by heart. Where the Coppers are concerned there's the part-singing element as well - from my limited experience it's much easier to get a harmony line right if you've got the dots in front of you.

What kind of message are you giving out if you sit there saying"I can't even be bothered to try to learn one song"?

I've seen some very good singers use words as a safety-net. Blanking in mid-song is horrific, and can strike unpredictably - back when I used to do covers, I once did Nick Drake's Which Will for a floor spot on the spur of the moment, and blanked between verse 1 and verse 2 (the entire song is eight lines long). There is some overlap between "good singer" and "has songsheet". But there's a much bigger overlap between "has song folder/notebook/ringbinder" and "bad singer".

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 04:15 AM

The standard of performance of BOOKED and paid artists has always been high since I started going to Song Clubs in the mid sixties .
However the same is NOT true of floor singers today . There are two clubs local to me that I have stopped going to entirely simply because the majority of the local singers seem incapable of learning a song without the words in front of them , and in many cases actually hold the words in front of them , so they are singing AT their bloody song book , not TO the audience

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 04:25 AM

There are quite a few folk clubs where this kind of 'performance' has simply become the norm. As I said on another thread, there are places where 'apologising in advance ("I only finished it this afternoon"), reading the words off a bit of paper, mumbling into your chest because you're concentrating on getting the chords right, forgetting the chords halfway through anyway (and so on) isn't just tolerated - it's actually welcomed: that's the kind of thing the regulars expect.' I think this is one reason why the big ballads are either frowned on or treated with a kind of wary respect ("how many verses was that?") - proposing to do Sir Patrick Spens unaided is seen as a bit arrogant and 'starry'. After all, most other people in the room couldn't do that...

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 04:29 AM

If I go to a club or a singaround or a session - which I do several times a week sometimes - I go in the expectation that (if I'm lucky) I'll be asked to perform anything between 1 and 3 numbers. So, a day or two before I go, I run through the same internal processes:

1. What's the style and character of the venue - and therefore...
2. What's appropriate to perform?
3. What numbers did I perform at that venue last time I was there?
4. What, more or less, will I do on this occasion?

Being a musical tart of many years standing, I have a large rep that I can call on fairly flexibly. Nevertheless, I'll run through 3 or 4 numbers that I know my audience won't have heard (for some time at least) and get those to a standard that I know I can do as perfectly as possible on the night. And I might change my mind at the last minute, depending on what's gone before.

If the worst happens - and very occasionally it does, and a line goes astray - I'll play through it until it comes or I get to a point where the words reappear. I never stop at verse 5, say, "Oh dear, I'll have to start again"! That way madness lies...

I'm happy to forget all that just for the sheer pleasure of waving a large folder in Vic's face on 26th, spending precious minutes assembling a music stand, leafing through the folder - dropping some pages as a I do so - finally choosing a song, tuning up interminably, starting off in the wrong key and then changing my mind, losing my place while performing, staring at the music and ignoring the audience meantime.

Now, if that's what MacColl was faced with, I can understand his forming the Critics Group in a bid to remedy the situation - but I don't remember this sort of thing all those years ago.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 04:46 AM

"A few years ago we had a blind singer amongst our regular supporters. Unlike most people who came out the front to sing, he understandably stayed in his place and sang his unaccompanied song with bags of authentic style from his regular seat behind a table. One evening, I went up to him to thank him for singing and added that I found it remarkable that he knew so very many songs and never forgot a word. His sightless face broke into a huge grin as he pulled a sheet of braille out of pocket. He told me that he always used his braille song sheets under the table and that I had never noticed!"

That's a great anecdote Vic.

But doesn't it really prove that any gripes about using lyric sheets are really purely aesthetic?

Greg said the Coppers are the exception that proves the rule. But John Kirkpatrick has a bulging lyrics folder which he uses live, as did Peggy Seeger when I saw her gig recently. Stands to reason - if you've got a huge repertoire (and if you're getting on a bit), you're going to need some reminders.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 05:19 AM

Because a few doddering old fools such as myself suffer occaional memory lapses does not justify every bright young thing singing all their songs off their mobile phones. Of course people can do what they like, but those of us who against ring-binder culture are merely pointing out it doesn't generally leads to good performances.
The Coppers(in reference to an earlier post) did not actually sing off sheet music, by the way. Or at least they didnt when I saw them. They had the words, not the dots.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 05:20 AM

I'm happy to forget all that just for the sheer pleasure of waving a large folder in Vic's face on 26th, spending precious minutes assembling a music stand, leafing through the folder - dropping some pages as a I do so - finally choosing a song, tuning up interminably, starting off in the wrong key and then changing my mind, losing my place while performing, staring at the music and ignoring the audience meantime.

Aaaaaaaaaaaargh! Why did I know this was coming?

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 05:23 AM

John Kirkpatrick has a bulging lyrics folder which he uses live

Really? I've seen John on several occasions and the only paper I've spotted about him is a set list.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 05:33 AM

Well it was something he actually spoke about last time I saw him - specifically from the point of view of needing a few prompts on some material.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 05:33 AM

"I can understand his forming the Critics Group in a bid to remedy the situation"
I really do suggest that you re-visit some of the threads on this forum and look at some of the arguments on using crib sheets, expecting singers to have learned and remember the words and tunes before they are put before an audience, practicing in public........ and all the other aspects of running and attending folk clubs.
We recently had a singing week-end here with a number of visitors and guests from the UK - an extremely enjoyable event - with the exception of the concert at which I sat next to a well-known and accomplished UK singer who audibly joined in on every song that was sung, and if she didn't know the words she hummed the tune loudly.
I understand that it is now the case that a singer has to ask an audience not to join in if he/she wshes to 'sing solo' at many UK clubs nowadays - and then they are not guaranteed to be allowed to do so - is that true?
MacColl did not set up The Critics Group to remedy anything - he did so because a number of singers on the scene asked him to take classes.
One of my greatest criticisms of Ewan and the Group was that they took no part in the public debates that were happening in the 60s, 70s and 80s - whatever work they did, conclusions they reached or opinions they held on the folk scene were seldom discussed outside the meetings and club nights.
Matt
"as did Peggy Seeger when I saw her gig recently."
I assume you are referring to her folder of quotes, newspaper cuttings, anecdotes, bon mots.. etc which she now uses as part of her act.
In my 40-odd year association with Peggy and Ewan I never saw either use crib-sheets (with the possible exception of Ewan's 'Song of the Travels' to which he added a new verse each time the Singers Club moved venue and sang on the first night of the move)
We got a chance to leaf through her "bulging lyrics folder" at a recent concert she gave here - not a lyric in sight. I would be interested if anybody has actually seen her use a crib-sheet - she didn't during that evening, though she did pepper her performance with some hilarious and apposite quotes from her folder.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 05:44 AM

OK I raise you lot one: "Singer-songwriter" singing one of his own songs from a laptop, whilst playing a guitar.

Us old gits forget more than young ones but I have always forgotten words and I blame sheer idleness. It takes a lot longer to learn a song really well but the desire to be approved of by others drives many of us, more often blokes than women, to get up and sing when we should sit down and shut up. Not a catholic but confession is good for us all.

I have taken to writing first lines of verses on a piece of paper and sticking it somewhere. Is that OK?

Back to The Critics: McColl did thousands and thousands of things. Some were good some were not. In general those who don't make mistakes don't do much, so to speak.

Lets be thnkfull that we can still sit or stand in small rooms and sings songs because we like doing it and lets do it more often and a bit better than we did last time.

Cheers

L in C#

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 05:58 AM

I'm pretty sure that the claims the John K. and Peggy S. use song sheets cannot be substantiated from the many times that I have seen both. With the high energy that John puts into his performance, it is doubtful that he would be still enough to read whilst performing.

As for the Coppers, well as has been pointed out that the book is part of the act - the fact that Bob's father Jim wrote the words of his songs down in an old ledger book and that was part of the the family's story. When I first heard them - nearly 50 years ago - they were using Jim's actial book. Later, they used photocopies of the original in see-through plastic sheets in a clip-file. In recent years, it has been the Copper Family song book designed and produced by Jon Dudley. Unlike the earlier versions, Jon's printed song book was the first to have the musical stave of each song noted, but, Matt, none of the Coppers can sight-read music.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 06:02 AM

I'm not trying to be picky, Les - or even a perfectionist. My point is that when you know in advance that you'll probably get just 2 numbers to perform in a venue, why not just concentrate really hard on getting those 2 absolutely right and perfected without recourse to paper? And, though you may go to a club, resist the temptation to get up and sing them if you don't have them down pat.

I don't think this is unreasonable - and the reason, IMO, that so many people perform in an unprepared way is that they're primarily thinking of themselves rather than their audience. There's nothing wrong with sitting down in a family circle or with a small group of friends, armed with a songbook, if it creates an entertaining and happy evening. I very often have friends round to play, and we get out chord books and bits of paper to play around with things that we've never done before. But playing in front of an audience - particularly one that's paid good money to be there - requires more than that.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 06:04 AM

One of the very many time when we had The Copper Family at our club, Bob was telling one of the many stories against himself. After the laughter died down, John said, "Well, I think that we will have Claudy Banks now."
"Oh! right." said Bob and he started staring intently down at the song book. I remember thinking, "Oh, yea, Bob, You don't know the words of Claudy Banks, do you?"

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:08 AM

"I'm pretty sure that the claims the John K. and Peggy S. use song sheets cannot be substantiated from the many times that I have seen both. With the high energy that John puts into his performance, it is doubtful that he would be still enough to read whilst performing."

Not suggesting either were literally reading from song sheets for every line of every song.

I am, however, stating as a point of empirical fact (as opposed to making any "claims"), that the former had lyrics at his feet (whether he actually consulted them or not I have no idea) and the latter had lyrics on a stand (which she glanced at occasionally) and on a piano's music stand.

I agree that if a singer is literally scrutinizing lines to the extent that they never even look up, it's not exactly a thrilling performance. But millions of guitarists have tiny sheets of "prompt words" tacked to the top of their acoustic guitars, and unless you're an audience member right up close in the front row you'd never notice.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:10 AM

Well I am now forgetting words of songs I have known for years, so I sometimes have the words on a chair or a table nearby, in case I get lost. I may glance down at them, but I would never have them up on a music stand in front of me. A music stand is for music anyway, not words. The clue's in the name.
Worst incident I saw at a singaround was at the Yacht Club in Broadstairs, when Tom and Barbara Brown were running the evening. A lady said that her son didn't want to come, but he had prerecorded her accompaniment. She then turned on a tape recorder, and sang along to the disembodied accompaniment of her son, in absentia.
I were gobsmacked I were!

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:11 AM

MacColl did not set up The Critics Group to remedy anything - he did so because a number of singers on the scene asked him to take classes.

I don't doubt your words, Jim - I'm merely taking my cue from the BBC blurb about the programme:

Immediately after the success of the BBC Radio Ballads, Ewan MacColl set about the Herculean task of trying to drag British folk music into mainstream culture. Frustrated by the dreary amateurishness of folk song performance, he decided to establish his own centre of excellence to professionalise the art. He called it "The Critics Group".

The second sentence of the blurb seems slightly at variance with your view - that's all.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:20 AM

Will, I agree pretty well with your post about learning words Will, just hope I can make it. Some people have words on paper at our Singarounds and I don't really know what to say. Singarounds are basically - who ever comes through the door.

Just because the writers for the BBC said:

"MacColl set about the Herculean task of trying to drag British folk music into mainstream culture"

doesn't mean it's entirely true. Maybe it is? Sounds like a nice turn of phrase to me

L in C#

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:36 AM

"I'm merely taking my cue from the BBC blurb about the programme:"
And it is (typically) ill-informed.
MacColl was approached by singers - Bob Davenport and Harry Boardman among them - to hold classes - he refused but organised a self-help group which eventually became known as The Critics Group.
I read through Harker's biography of MacColl and listed 4 pages of what I knew for certain to be factual errors
Early members were Bobby Campbell, Gordon McCulloch, Luke Kelly, Alasdair Clayre... got a full list somewhere.
"Not suggesting either were literally reading from song sheets "
And I'm saying that in Peggy's case they weren't song texts - I flicked through them - even asked her for a copy of them.
Would appreciate information as to how common joining in with the singer now is in the UK - and opinions thereon
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:48 AM

Vic: Unlike the earlier versions, Jon's printed song book was the first to have the musical stave of each song noted, but, Matt, none of the Coppers can sight-read music.

I'm confused. Who wrote the setting shown on this page & who did they write it for? I assumed it was out of The Book - & that they sang from the stave - but I guess not.

Would appreciate information as to how common joining in with the singer now is in the UK

At our local FC (not to be confused with Les's singaround) the problem is the opposite - people are there to be entertained (or else to wait for their turn), and you have to work to get a sound out of them, even on choruses. When John Kelly did "Shallow Brown" I think there were three of us joining in on the refrain - and it's not the most demanding refrain!

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:55 AM

Would appreciate information as to how common joining in with the singer now is in the UK - and opinions thereon

As an occasional singer in clubs, I'm always happy for the audience to join in - if they know the words, which is sometimes highly unlikely, given the abstruse stuff I do! I've not seen or heard much evidence of thoughtless joining-in in the clubs that I frequent - audiences appear to be mostly tactful. If the performer indicates quite clearly that he/she wants audience participation, that's a different matter.

At the sessions I attend, it's understood that, unless the leader of a song or tune specifically wants to do a solo and says so, joining-in is the norm. At my own session, I always make sure newcomers understand this.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 07:58 AM

Some people have words on paper at our Singarounds and I don't really know what to say.

"Don't"? Realistically that's probably not the best idea. I was at Sale FC once where a performer was very gently chided (chidden?) for using words on a music stand; the result was a tirade about how Some of Us had Busy Lives and didn't have the Spare Time to Learn Songs All The Way Through, which lasted almost as long as the song eventually did. (I wouldn't have minded so much, but they were only doing "When a child is born", in the style of Johnny Mathis. Don't think I've been back to Sale since, oddly enough.)

It's one of those things that are bearable in moderation, perhaps. I don't mind the odd rustle of paper, as long as it doesn't become the norm, and as long as the people who do it don't rely on it excessively ("Lowlands, lowlands -" [pause, rustle] "- away").

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 08:03 AM

Perhaps this might clarify the setting up of the Group - from the expanded edition - p 296
Jim Carroll

"In 1964, an established Tyneside singer resident in London said, in the course of an interview, that Lloyd and MacColl should share the benefits of their enormous experience with all those newcomers on the scene who were anxious to improve themselves. After reading the article, I phoned Bert and suggested that it might be a good idea to start a discussion group. He was distinctly cool and refused to be involved. Peggy and I mentioned it to two or three friends and almost before we had realised what was happening we found ourselves taking part in a discus¬sion on the problems of the revival with several dozen young singers.
We had, previous to this, tutored several other singers singly. Our original intention in taking on the group was to describe some of our own experiences and to give warnings of the dangers and pitfalls which confront those who make singing folk-songs a full-time job. It didn't work out like that. Within a short time we found ourselves devoting one or two evenings each week to a group whose numbers fluctuated between twelve and twenty-five. It was a mutual-aid group where everyone gave a hand in solving each other's problems. For instance, at a number of meetings, a singer would sing a song with which she or he was having trouble with, or present a performance of a number of songs meant to represent a 'spot' at a folk club. Afterwards, the group would discuss and analyse what they had heard.
The objective of these sessions was to improve a singer's performance by seeking out the weak spots and then working to eliminate them. Since new problems were constantly arising, new techniques of dealing with them had to be developed and old techniques had to be adapted. We introduced the kind of voice exercises that had been taught in Theatre Workshop by Nelson Illingworth. We invented exercises based on Laban's effort-scales and we had exercises for relaxation and to improve articulation and the sense of pitch. These formed the basis of our purely physical work."

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: C Stuart Cook
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 08:12 AM

Amazed at how some threads develop. Everything from fractious, informative, thought provoking, untruthful and sometimes downright objectionable. This one has developed more than I thought it would given so many other threads re EM have covered the ground already.

The old crib sheet/words subject has been covered with before with the usual frayed conclusions.

I'm inclined to say that there has to be a number of dividing lines laid down. Paid guests/supporting artists/floorspots are one place where we can reasonably expect a much higher level of performance.

At a singaround we're all there to enjoy ourselves to whatever level of performance we can acheive. I'd emphasize enjoy there. Sometimes that doesn't seem to be an act that seems to be acceptable with some contributors. Everybodies contribution is valid. I know many songs fully. Not as many as once upon a time but enough to get by if I have to. I and others would get very fed up if I just repeated them all the time. Many people do exactly that of course. That becomes a natural (rude in my opinion) beer break in some circumstances.

Then again if I want to sing something that's topical because of that week's news, why shouldn't I, or anyone else, print it off and sing it, I just don't see a problem with it or why some see it as such a terrible act. I've seen any number of performers in "In Concert" programs on Sky Arts, Beeb 3 & 4, YouTube videos who have the music stand set up and ready.

To me it's like we're all footballers. It would be nice to be at Premier League level, but some of are only Non-league and even more are Sunday Morning Pub Team level. We all play the same game to whatever level we can and hopefully enjoy it, even if there are more miskicks and duff tackles at the lower level.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: RTim
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 10:25 AM

Pip Radish - asked:

>Vic: Unlike the earlier versions, Jon's printed song book was the first to have the musical >stave of each song noted, but, Matt, none of the Coppers can sight-read music.

>I'm confused. Who wrote the setting shown on this page & who did they write it for? I >assumed it was out of The Book - & that they sang from the stave - but I guess not.

The music was written by Dave & Caro Kettlewell - and Brasser's original book had no musical notations.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 10:30 AM

"To me it's like we're all footballers. It would be nice to be at Premier League level, but some of are only Non-league and even more are Sunday Morning Pub Team level. We all play the same game to whatever level we can and hopefully enjoy it, even if there are more miskicks and duff tackles at the lower leve"
but many have the potential to be better than they are, by availing of workshops such as the ones Lewes Saturday club run, or the Critics group, PERFORMERS can get better.
Incidentally many years ago about 1989 Ihad a conversation with Valmai Goodyear at the Saturday folk club in Lewes[ this was the club run by the Burglar Fred Baxter]I was expressing my views forcibly on the subject of folk clubs running workshops,I must say how pleased I am that shortly afterwards she instigated the Lewes Workshops

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 11:39 AM

I just wonder if The Critics Group had been called The Singers' Workshop the whole perception might have been different.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Acorn4
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 11:46 AM

This link has just appeared on Genevieve Tudor's facebook page - thought it might be of interest.

http://www.downhomeradioshow.com/2008/08/martin-carthy-radio-programs/

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 11:48 AM

To me it's like we're all footballers. It would be nice to be at Premier League level, but some of are only Non-league and even more are Sunday Morning Pub Team level.

A comforting simile, one that brings to mind Lowreyesque images and such homespun wisdom as folk is a grey music, sung on grey days by grey people; and here there are no audiences, only participants... It's a cosy idyll for sure, but one that doesn't account for the underlying entrenched curmudeonly reality that so very often assumes that A) Everyone is just as good as everyone else, if not better, and B) What they are doing is somehow as good, if not better, than the Traditional Singers so very few of them have actually bothered to listen to, preferring revival product to the fossil record. Maybe this is like comparing punters in a Dinosaur Park to the paleontologists who've put it all together. After all the academic veneer of The Revival can be a tad off putting at times, especially to those who just want a good old blow over a few pints of a Friday night, as unaware of Roud Numbers as they are of the dodgy provenance of (say) The Blackleg Miner they've sourced off their favourite Steeleye Span LP, trusting that it's somehow The Real Thing. Thus is assuaged a craving for the OO-gauge authentic which at least looks real enough, like the bucolic scenes on food labels in ASDA, or ALDI, many of which (come to think of it) do resemble 70's folk album art...

Anyhoo, recently I fell in love with Jim Causely's version of Out With My Gun in the Morning on the Woodbine & Ivy album (which elsewhere I likened to an encounter between Martin Carthy and The Smiths overseen by The Divine Comedy on Craggy Island), a song I sort of knew (and sort of loved, as I sort of love all these things) from one of the VOTP CDs my sister-in-law bought for me at Fylde back in 2008. Today, the tune fell under my fingers during Fiddle Practise (basically an hour or so of Scales, Free Improvisation and picking up on anything that might happen by way of a song) &, not having the words, I give Mudcat a shot thinking it was a sure thing. I found but ONE mention - and that was buried in a Malcolm Douglas post from 2001 which linked to one of the crappy broadside scans on the the Bodlian website. A serendipitous result really. Over the next month the song will become part of my Unrecorded Repertoir of Traditional Folk Songs - i.e. the stuff I only sing in sessions and singarounds on account of a lingering superstition I have about recording (or not recording) certain folk songs, if only to enter into a more spiritual communion with the nature of the beast itself. Indeed, I have several cherished songs that are not only unrecorded, but (get this) unperformed; the stuff I reserve only for long solitary walks on long solitary beaches when I feel inclined to sing unaccompanied, much as nature intended. You can't do that with stuff you've recorded and performed - it belongs elsewhere.   

Once in a singaround I was severely irked when someone sang from a crib sheet a song I'd been living with for months & had planned to sing that night. So I sang it anyway - giving source and provenance and even the Roud Number just to show I'd been doing my homework, pointing out that the true FUN of FOLK is in the rooting around & that, after all, one only gets out of life what one puts in. Needless to say I didn't make any friends that night, but isn't that so often the way? Where there is no suffering, there is no art. And as Scott Walker says - in a world filled with friends, you lose your way...

S O'P (Old Christmas Eve: ill, cold, muttering in his sporran...)

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 12:06 PM

Jim Carroll wrote:
I read through Harker's biography of MacColl and listed 4 pages of what I knew for certain to be factual errors

It would be great if you could share that list with others Jim - how about posting it to this or a new thread?

Derek

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Jan 12 - 12:17 PM

I remember at some point Ewan saying that singers should sing with passion. That has always stuck in my mind because it is the passionate singers who make the 'hairs stand up on the back of your neck'!

I do not believe that you can convey either passion or conviction if you've got your nose stuck in a ring-binder or note book. And if you're reading the same songs, from the same bits of paper, week after week after week you're obviously not making any sort of effort and I don't see why I should have to listen to you! Expect me to go to the bar or the gents (whichever is most urgent) when you're on.

Not all singers can be great ones - but I do like to see people making an effort.