M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Acorn4
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 07:37 AM

Crib Sheets

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Acorn4
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 07:38 AM

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 07:43 AM

Jim Mclean and GSS.

All media programme makers have to attract an audience. That means folk programmes end up using big names such as Billy Bragg or Martin Carthy, rather than people who can claim to be experts in their field. Yes, I don't doubt Martin knows a lot about the folk scene of the sixties. But an expert on the Critics Group he is not.

I don't think hatchet job is quite the word to use here. More a case of picking out the salacious bits, which the producers knew would pull the punters, but which nonetheless gave rise to an unbalanced and unfair programme.

Regarding the question of MacColl's "opinionated bullying". I've mentioned further up this thread that the recordings were too few and too selective to be fair to the man.

However, another thought has just struck me. Could it be that what came across as bullying on the recordings might simply have been commitment.

MacColl was a very passionate man who, rightly or wrongly, believed that the retrieval of the folk song tradition was absolutely essential for "the furtherment of social progress" (his words). In other words he was prepared to work as hard as humanly possibly to raise his own perfomance standards, and those of other people, thereby helping to turn the folk revival into an instrument for improving the lot of the entire human race.

I don't think we need to start to another flame war on the viability of his beliefs, or on his attempts to ally folk music with socialism. But let's at least respect MacColl's memory for the things he did, and for the work he put in, and for the sincerity of his convictions.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 08:05 AM

Jim, you really should lighten up. I understood that you were an electrician and did a very good job of work. I am sorry if I was mis-informed and that description is incorrect, and I should point out that I have no interest in your education or table manners.

Keep smiling

Hoot

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 08:08 AM

Cards on table - technical problems have prevented me from hearing the programme yet, which is why I have refrained from commenting on its contents. A kind Mudcatter is sending me a copy (there's still a lot of that sort of generosity about in the revival, as I have discovered from this forum).
I doubt if Carthy did a hatchet job on MacColl and the group - whatever opinions I might have on his singing, I have always found him fair minded and generous with his praise of others. Personally I would have hated to try and cram six years into a single radio programme; I certainly would have been hard pushed to choose from the mass of recordings available for that time slot.
Rather, I would guess that any attempt to present the area of work that was covered by the group would have to be a superficial dip.
I wonder if he included any of the 'soliloquies' after the work was finished, when MacColl 'took off' and poured out his love, understanding of and committment to traditional song - some of the most inspiring moments I (and others, at the time) have ever experienced - as quoted from me by Ben Harker, "it left you feeling as if you were walking a foot above the pavement".
MacColl's main input into the Group was inspirational; he devised voice and relaxation exercises for us, most of which still come in handy, and he suggested ways of looking at and relating to songs which helped them work and kept them alive, but it was in encouraging us to lift the corner and look underneath that has been the most enduring influence he had on me.
This latter was one of the main influences in our collecting work; getting the singers we met to talk about their songs rather than just sing them - this was particularly true with our recording the Travellers' 'living tradition'.
Why wasn't Carthy asked to join the Group?
From the off, MacColl deliberately limited the numbers in order to make it possible for everybody to participate in the work - any larger and this would not have been possible and it would have become a series of lectures.
Being asked to join, certainly in my case, was an accidental affair, I first met them outside the MSG in Manchester, was invited to visit their home for a week-end and take copies of their recordings (I think son Calum still must curse me for taking over his bedroom and turning it into a temporary recording studio - cum- dossing place).
I was invited to join on the basis of discussions I had with them then and on subsequent visits (including a week of re-wiring their lighting circuit).
And, "reader - I married them"!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 08:52 AM

Sorry, I do think it was a hatchet job , but not on Martins part,on the programme makers part.
it was an edited 30 minutes, that made Ewan look and sound arrogant, it was not[imo] balanced, what is needed is for there to be another programme putting a different perspective on the group,
Jim he did include that quote, but the overall impression was that Ewan was a controller and arrogant, That is the fault of the programme maker who selected certain material to create that impression.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 10:01 AM

"Jim, you really should lighten up."
Sorry Hoot - it's a little difficult to "lighten up" when you are accused of "teaching traditional singers how to sing" and reading descriptions of somebody you respect which bear no relation to reality - will try harder.
Cap'n
Ewan could be arrogant in certain circumstances - quite often defenvely so - I think I told you of the attempts to sabotage 'The Travelling People' Radio Ballad which is now passed around as an anti-MacColl story - or how he 'stole 'Shoals of Herring' from the tradition and claimed it as his own - I'll tell you the story of the hedgehog and the worms sometime.
He could also be somewhat unrealistic on occasion; his tendency to exaggerate was legendary.
Having said that, his generosity and desire to involve others in traditional song dominated everything he did.
When the acting group broke up he had what his son Neil described as a breakdown; for a period he cut himself off from everybody.
One night we were at The Singers and we were discussing the London Singers Workshop, which we had helped set up to work with raw singers around The Singers and The West London Folk Club.
We described what we were doing and, out of the blue he said, "I'll come and give a hand if you want"
He came along on a monthly basis for around a year - great evenings; and eventualy he agreed to be interviewed by us, talking just about his involvment and ideas on song - a project that took six months to complete.
I don't know anybody in his position who would have put that much effort into working with others, certainly none of his detractors.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 11:42 AM

so WHY was his helpfulness NOT given more prominence?simple because the programme maker chose to highlight his flaws, rather than his good points, he gave up hours of his time to try and help others, why is he made to appear like a control freak,
certain of his conversations were used to highlight one side of his character.[eg the extract about Charles Parker and a particular song]. The PROGRAMME was a subtle attempt to portray one side of his character, it was not [imo] a balanced programme, that is why another programme is need to give a different perspective, it was far too simplistic an analysis of a complicated and interesting man, a complicated an interesting woman, and a group of people who were asking for assistance with their performance

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 12:29 PM

Jim, I'm not being rude, but I suggest you wait until you hear the program before being further involved in wasteful tit-for-tats.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 01:53 PM

Not sure if there is any mention of The Critics but Genevieve included Martin Carthy last Sunday - two hours left to listen / download.

Genevieve in conversation with Martin Carthy and a preview of Belinda O'Hooley and Heidi Tidow's wonderful new CD, The Fragile.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00mfs7x

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 02:35 PM

interesting version of henry martin, thanks.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: tonyteach1
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 02:57 PM

Having listened to the recording my conclusions were that what started out as a good idea became too dominated by McColl and his political agend and his bullying personality He must have been one of the richest Stalinists in town as attenders at the Bull and Mouth gigs were high pressured into buying his and dear Peggys LPs as they were at the time. I want 3 songs about Vietnam by next week yeah right I am sure he was absolutely charming if you did everything his way just like Hitler was

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 03:33 PM

you just dont get it do you tonyteach1?, this is a selected carefully edited programme, that wants to give you just that impression,
people should not make judgements until they have heard all the tapes.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,SRD
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 05:51 PM

Surely the programme was just another example of the way Aunty has to kow-tow to the government of the day. Today it's proving its non left wing bias by knocking anyone who had radical left wing views (whilst choosing not very important people to blast, after all who bothers with folk music?) yesterday and tomorrow there were, and will be, any number of oddball right wingers to have a poke at. Don't forget that the producers etc. are all in fear of losing their jobs.

And I don't give a stuff for the right way to sing a song, what's important is that I want to sing it and if I have to modify the tune to suit my voice what care I for 'traditional' Western musical notation, and why should I? I'm not being paid to entertain, I'm just joining in and contributing as I see fit and having Courtney Pine getting his pianist to play middle C made not the slightest difference to how I am able to sing.

My memory was useless before I discovered alcohol (even in the Wolf Cubs I was useless at Kim's Game), so it's read the sheet or miss out on the song.

When you're in a pub for a sing-around and no-one else is prepared to get up and sing, you have to make do with those who've got the balls to do the job, good or bad it matters not, doing it is what matters.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 06:08 AM

"Jim, I'm not being rude, but I suggest you wait until you hear the program before being further involved in wasteful tit-for-tats. "
Jim
I'm not being rude either, but I so far I have carefully avoided reaching any conclusion whatever on the contents of the program and have taken up comments I know to be totally inaccurate - the opening publicity blurb "How folk songs should be sung" being a classic example.
Seems somewhat daft that I should hang on to hear the programme then catch up - especially as this thread is now full of aspects that (apparently) have no relation whatever to the progremme's contents, but are examples of the mythology which surrounds MacColl and the Critics Group - (or did the programme really go into whether Alex Campbell was in love with Peggy? - can't wait!!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 06:57 AM

Jim Carroll

The last workshop I attended - a few months ago, I, along with a whole roomful of people was handed song texts (of some songs I had heard before, but mainly not) and asked to sing them - that appears to be what passes for singing classes nowadays. I am in no way knocking that, but to be honest, I got far more from our group criticism work than I ever got from the 'singing-by-rote' method that appears to be used now.

Ah well, Jim, you've never been to any of our workshops. Lewes Saturday Folk Club Workshops

Here are a few this year that you might be interested in.

3 Mar FAY HIELD English song
28 Apr CLOUDSTREET Vocal harmony
26 May JIGJAW Song for dancing
30 Jun ANNE NEILSON/GORDEANNA McCULLOCH Ballads
15 Sep CRAIG MORGAN ROBSON Vocal harmony
16 Sep CRAIG MORGAN ROBSON Ballads
20 Oct DENNY BARTLEY Irish song/guitar

Valmai says she'll pay for your place at one out of her own pocket. You'll have to arrange transport and accommodation yourself.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 07:06 AM

In fairness to "singing workshops" at Irish festivals - and I think I was at the one to which Jim Carroll refers - they vary ENORMOUSLY! They are usually given by one of the guest singers performing at the event, not all of whom have a conscious approach to the facilitation/teaching/inspirational role they've been landed with. In my experience, many workshops are enjoyable but pretty pedestrian, a few are insightful and the occasional one is exhilirating (Phil Callery springs to mind).

Regards

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: tonyteach1
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 07:50 AM

Of course I get it GSS You can hear the dogmatic bullying tone in his voice on he tape I WANT 3 songs on Vietnam - not shall we consider subjects for songs including the V word He did not like stuff that was counter to his views. He did not like material that was not part of the Method style of creation. No creative person can develop under a regime like this

By the way this is the guy who slagged off Dylan and presumably was quite happy to accept royalties for his hit song which presumably the estate is still getting residuals from - the guy who was a dedicated socialist who sent his kids to private school and endured the hardships of the late 60s and early 70s in a very nice house on the Kent London borders That is really street cred that is

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 09:31 AM

Martin;
I have been to half a dozen singing workshops here in Ireland - give you a list of them if you wish
All have been singing-from-a-sheet affairs.
Have discussed at length with two people taking these; both expressed reservations on their value.
Brian;
Am referring to what I believe to be happening in Ireland at present - have no experience at what happens in the UK, though I should add that two of the Irish workshops were run by singers from the UK.
Would welcome descriptions of forms of teaching other than the ones I have described.
Tonyteach1
The programme arrived this morning - I will listen to it with intrest
As far as my own experience in the group - I never once witnesses anything resembling dogmatic bullying, nor have I found any evidence for it in any of the recordings of group meetings I have listened to.
Members came and went - it was never easy to stand up before a group and sing, knowing your performance was going to be discussed in detail - I accepted that was going to happen and would happily have continued to work in this way long after the Critics Group ceased to exist - others didn't, and left. I do know that one of the lasting effects that this type of work had was that I have never since, felt nervous about performing before an audience.
The only heayy demands I ever saw in the Group was when there was a deadline to be met; the Festival of Fools being an extreme example; I witnessed first hand the demands MacColl put on himself when writing the script - just as demanding, if not more, than any he put on the rest of the group.
Despite MacColl's initial refusal to teach, that is how he was regarded and eventually, that is what he became - a teacher.
I can only say that if the Critics Group was a classroom, then it was the most democratic one I have ever been in. I have never been in one where the 'pupils' participated in the 'teaching' as much as we did - but then again, it is over half a century since I was at school; maybe things have changed in that time.
When the Critics (singing) Group broke up, here was no sign of dissention among the then members - wasn't part of the acting group so I can't speak for what happened there.
Incidentally; as far as I remember all the members of the Critics Group, including me, shared most of MacColl's political views; they/we sang political songs out of personal choice; some of them wrote their own songs, so there was NEVER ANY QUESTION OF MacCOLL IMPOSING HIS OWN POLITICAL VIEWS ON THE GROUP.
I would have been far more wary expressing contrary political views to some of the group members, than I ever would to Ewan; on two occasions I argued strongly with MacColl against views generally accepted by group members (on the Irish Civil Rights movement and on Trotskyism) and both times I recieved an (unexpectedly, as I was a new member) friendly reception, even though we parted agreeing to disagree.
I assume you are able to provide some substance to your description of MacColl's likes and dislikes - I really wasn't aware that Ewan had ever "slagged off" Dylan or anybody for making money, but perhaps you have proof that this was not the case?
BTW his "rather nice house" (I assume you visited it) was the upper two floors of a maisonette - certainly not a slum by any means, but neither was it a palace.
You sound somewhat like Theresa May slagging off the protesters at St Pauls for drinking coffee from Starbucks - do people really have to be starving and living on the street before they are allowed to possess a social concience?
Below is an extract summing up MacColl's views on The Critics Group from the expanded edition of MacColl's autobiography; will happily provide the whole section to anybody interested - that is the Critics Group I remember and was part of.
Jim Carroll         

From Journeyman - p 300 (Manchester University Press 2009)
Almost from the first week of its birth, The Critics Group had been a target for suspicion and abuse. The suspicion fed on itself and created its own myths which, in turn, exacerbated the situation and produced even more abuse. The name Critics Group was seized upon by rabid myth-makers and held up as proof of our arrogance. 'What right have they to criticise us?' was the cry. In actual fact, we were criticising ourselves. I think it was the idea of a folksinger having to train like an athlete or a carpenter which stuck in the craw of most of our critics. 'Did Harry Cox or Sam Larner or Jeannie Robertson - or any field singer - have to train?' There were, of course, several answers to that. Joe Heaney, for example, did train, did plan his decorations, the use of this tone here and that tone there. We have recordings of Paddy Tunney talking about how he decorates, how he approaches a song, who his models were when he was learning. Then there was the fact that the traditional singer had been a neighbour among neighbours who know his repertoire almost as well as he did. Furthermore, field-singers were not expected to sing twelve or fourteen songs in a row three or four times a week in front of strange audiences. The job of the revival singer is very different from that of a traditional singer. Nonetheless, it is still a common myth that all folksingers are really amateurs. We were in Bletchley one night at a club and a member of the audience happened to be present when we were being paid. He was astonished. 'You get paid for: this?' he said. 'You shouldn't. You were just doing something you enjoy doing.' A compliment, perhaps, but also indicative of a commonly held opinion as to the professional status of folksingers.
Even now, nearly twenty years after the dissolution of the Critics Group, myths are being created about it. Recently, in what purported to be a serious if somewhat shrill expose of the folk revival, the Critics Group was described as an organisation which met in secret. The author had in his possession a tape-recording which apparently had been smuggled out of one of these clandestine sessions. In view of the fact that a great number of the meetings were recorded and access to the recordings is simply a matter of obtaining permission from the National Sound Archives or The Charles Parker Archive in Birmingham, no great skill was required to 'smuggle them out'.
Should one, on encountering myths of this sort, rush to one's typewriter or word-processor and dash off a repudiation? Perhaps; but I have had neither the time nor the inclination. Apart from the fact that you could easily spend most of your working hours dealing with misinformation, there is something rather endearing about the idea of a group of conspirators plotting to re-establish a group of songs which are the nation's rightful heritage.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: MartinRyan
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 09:42 AM

Jim

(Final bit of threadcreep!).

Phil Callery gave a set (3?) of workshops during the Feakle festival a year or two ago - of which I attended, IIRC, one when I happened to be there. While he certainly had a sheet with a song or two for people to work with, he mixed in demonstration, chat about song, breathing exercises, directed harmony singing, getting people to sing a verse or two, bouts of discussion etc. etc. Streets ahead of any other such workshop I've attended over the years.

Regards

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 10:53 AM

I confirm what Jim says, he lived in BECKENHAM, his house was nothing special.
my brother lived in a similiar house and he was a doctor at Guys hospital, The area BORDERED ON penge a working class area, I f###### know I had the misfortune to be at a state secondary school in beck/penge for 2 years, at the time the MacColls were living there.
and    Tony teachj,you still do not get my point ...you are listening to selected conversations designed to give you a certain impression, the producer chose limited material from what was available, to make us think he was arrogant, it would be even handed if the BBC were to make another programme interviewing other members and highlighting MacColls time and effort he put in to helping others.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 10:57 AM

Theresa May Jim? Are you sure it wasn't Louise Mensch the Chick Lit. M.P. Assuming that you are referring to a recent HIGNFY broadcast.

Hoot

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 11:21 AM

You're right, Hoot. It was the snidey and deeply annoying Mensch.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 12:43 PM

"Are you sure it wasn't Louise Mensch "
Am pretty sure it was Theresa May I saw on Question Time - she may have been quoting somebody else - I think they only have one brain between them which they pass around.
Martin;
What you describe certainly sounds far superior to those I've experienced - hope to be able to talk to you about it next time we meet.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Baz Bowdidge
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 01:48 PM

GSS - The road I remember as the McColl's was Stanley Avenue, Beckenham (3 miles from Penge) - bordering Bromley/W.Wickham and not as you put it 'working class area', rather posher.
However perhaps they were at Penge way back in the 60's - Jim could fill us in there.

Baz

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 02:15 PM

This is getting trivial now. I think we should return to a MacColl thread I started earlier - I think it gets to the heart of the matter:

Here

Best wishes

L in C#

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 03:04 PM

Don'r know they ever lived in Penge (did anyone ever live in Penge?)
35 Stanley Avenue
Ewan once told me he was offered the house that Christopher Wren had built in Cardinal's Cap Alley Soutwark, to oversee the re-building of St Pauls Cathederal fro the south bank of the Thames, after the fire of London - he turned it down because there was too much work needed to make it habitable.
Ewan was a fanatical gardener and after he died Peggy found it difficult to cope with, so she turned it into a 'wild garden' (untended - just allowing the what grew naturally to thrive).
After a while she received a barrage of complaints from her neighbours because of the badgers, foxes, rabbits that targeted it (and adgecent gardens) as an urban sanctuary.
Hope you don't think I'm making a case for them living in a working class area - as has been pointed out, they certainly did not, but neither was it as opulant as some have made it out to be.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 03:56 PM

{did anyone ever live in penge] yes, bill wyman and thomas crapper, amalcolm muggeridge, here;
Notable residents

    Lieutenant-Colonel Frank Bourne OBE DCM, Colour Sargeant at the Battle of Rorke's Drift, lived at 16 Kingshall Road after his retirement.[24]
    Penge was the childhood home of Bill Wyman (b. 1936 William George Perks) bassist from The Rolling Stones[25]
    Thomas Crapper, the famous Victorian manufacturing plumber retired to live at 12 Thornsett Road (c1897-1910). He is commonly, but erroneously, credited with inventing the WC.[26]
    Walter de la Mare, famous poet and author of ghost stories, resided at 195 Mackenzie Road (1899–1908), 5 Worbeck Road (1908–1912) and 14 Thornsett Road (1912–1925).[24]
    John Freeman, Georgian poet and essayist. A friend of Walter de la Mare.[27]
    Camille Pissarro, French impressionist painter, lived in Penge in the 1870s.[26]
    H. T. Muggeridge, British politician, father of Malcolm Muggeridge
    Malcolm Muggeridge, British journalist, author, satirist, media personality, soldier-spy and latterly a Christian apologist.[28]
    Andrew Bonar Law, Prime Minister, who was the Member of Parliament for Dulwich and lived in Oakfield Road in Penge.[28]
    John Clunies-Ross, first King of the Cocos Islands.[28]
    Tom Hood 1835-1874, author, playwright and editor of "Fun" lived at 12 Queen Adelaide Road.[28]
    Helena Normanton 1882-1957, the first woman to practise as a barrister in the UK.[28]
    Herbert Strudwick Surrey and England wicket-keeper lived at 4 Worbeck Road.[28]
    Simon Moores, the mining industry's writer, author and modern day thinker who made his name in Industrial Minerals magazine.[29]
    Henry Howse, a very early film actor with the Lumière brothers, moved to Penge by 1911 by which time he had become a cinematographer. He was a member of The Salvation Army and was instrumental in establishing the Limelight Department. He moved to Melbourne, Australia with the Salvation Army then to southern Africa resuming his career as cinematographer. He returned to live in Penge until his death.[30]
    Roger Mallett (Author, Photographer and Global Expert in Asset Management) lived in Penge from 1955 to 1977 (at 95 High Street Penge with his parents) and again from 1980 to 1983 (34 Albert Road).

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 03:58 PM

lets have fairplay for Penge.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 06:23 PM

Thanks, GSS, for your who's who of Penge ... fascinating! ... sort of ... if you live in Penge ... possibly?

Anyway, I can't help noticing that one William George Perks changed his name to Bill Wyman and no-one 'batted-an-eyelid' but James Miller changed his name to Ewan MacColl and, according to some people, this made him unforgiveably pretentious as well as the most wicked man since Hitler.

Mind you, Perks/Williams plays 'guitar-based music which rocks', in a commercially successful band which has never required its audience to think and, therefore, can be forgiven anything. But the evil Miller/MacColl 'subjected' his audience to ballads and politics, dared to express opinions about performance and (allegedly) didn't like Bob Dylan - so must be condemned for all time!

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 04:28 AM

That should be Perks/Wyman, by the way - NOT Perks/Williams ...

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:10 AM

Thanks for that Cap'n - still not convinced anybody ever lived in Penge.
Listened to the programme (thanks a million Burton) with growing fascination last night - nice to hear some of the old voices.
Major problem was, as I expected, not near enough time to cover the great area of work done by the group - just as there's not enough time here to cover all of the misrepresentation (I'm convinced they were not deliberate).
The main point for me was the position MacColl was shown as holding in the group.
He set it up in the first place, so it was, in essence 'his' brainchild - this was a fact nobody ever disputed in my hearing.
MacColl did not, as was stated, "lead off with the criticism following a performance" - both Pat and I shouted "bollocks" simultaneously when it was suggested he did.
MacColl was chairman - after a performance, he always asked for "comments" it was routine - almost part of the script; the first question always being "did the singing move you". The only thing 'demanded' of these comments was that they were "balanced", outlining both the strengths and weaknesses of the performance
These would (usually) come from everybody in the room - if anybody showed reticence in giving an opinion MacColl would ask for one - he never, in my presence nor on any of the tapes I have listened to, insisted on one, but would accept "I have nothing to add to what's already been said" or some such.
He would then sum up what had been suggested and add his own opinion, agreeing or disagreeing with what had been said and saying why.
He would then ask for suggestions as to which aspects of singing should be concentrated on, again adding his own suggestions, and we would embark on usually an hour+'s intense working session, making sure not to give the singer more than they could cope with in terms of work.
When we'd finished, the singer was usually asked if there were any questions on what had been arrived at and would be asked to come back at a later date with any results of work, or any continuing difficulties - three or four weeks later usually, if time permitted.
I was present at the session where MacColl 'demanded' that all members take part in the discussion; without checking the recording, I'm pretty certain that it was my first working performance in front of the group meeting (you never forget that sort of thing).
The sessions were organised in such a way that no one individual dominated the criticism; that everybody had a part in the proceedings. As sometimes happened (again, from the recordings), the number of people participating had dwindled to the same handful. MacColl felt that this was detrimental to the way the group operated and, as was his wont - said so, in this case, rather forcibly.
If this appears bullying, sorry - I never felt it was - but there you go.
A full description of the critical work the group did can be found in the full version of the 'Journeyman' extract I posted earlier.
If everbody isn't bored out of their skulls by all this, I'll be happy to cover some of the other reservations of the programme I have later.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:10 AM

"Which has never required its audience to think"...

Are you sure about that? And in any case, weren't folk songs and ballads, in their proper context, entertainment? And if not, why not?

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:21 AM

---If everbody isn't bored out of their skulls by all this, I'll be happy to cover some of the other reservations of the programme I have later.
Jim Carroll ---

I should greatly welcome this, Jim, and I am confident I should not be the only one. We are greatly privileged to have among us one who was an actual member of the group, and can speak of his experiences of it, and give his opinions of its success; and of the virtues or shortcomings of the R4 programme, based on first-hand knowledge of the topic under discussion ~~ for which, when accessible, there can be no substitute.

Please, do expound your views.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:24 AM

You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes, you might find
You get what you need.

Jagger/Richards - of a rock combo in which Bill Perks played for a while

L in C#
Wednesdays down the Beech with Mr Shimrod and Mr Cringe

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:53 AM

Like MgM, I'll be interested to hear Jim's further comments on the programme. Also still interested in reading Jim's list of mistakes in Ben Harker's biography.
Derek

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 06:24 AM

"And in any case, weren't folk songs and ballads, in their proper context, entertainment? And if not, why not?"

Of course they were (still are!), Spleen.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 06:36 AM

"Also still interested in reading Jim's list of mistakes in Ben Harker's biography."
Sorry Derek - you've asked this before but I've never got round to sorting it out in a legible form, will try to do so - will also let you have a copy of meeting you once enquired about sometime - need to get hiss our of recording to make it more listenable
"weren't folk songs and ballads, in their proper context, entertainment?"
Does "entertainment" exclude thought - I'm sure Shakespeare and Beethoven thought not!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Baz Bowdidge
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 06:41 AM

> I should greatly welcome this, Jim, and I am confident I should not be the only one. We are greatly privileged to have among us one who was an actual member of the group, and can speak of his experiences of it, and give his opinions of its success; and of the virtues or shortcomings of the R4 programme, based on first-hand knowledge of the topic under discussion ~~ for which, when accessible, there can be no substitute.

Please, do expound your views.

~Michael~ <

Thanks from me too Jim for your input.
I wanted to put the selfsame into words but no better than Michael's wonderful compliment.

Baz

PS. I used to live at 59, Croydon Road, Penge. Also as a recording engineer would make me working class.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 08:09 AM

I too spent some time in Penge, not sure if I was living at the time, It depends how you define living,I remember seeing Jimi Hendrix at The Bromley Court Hotel in 1966,.
I think that was the highlight of my time in Penge.
"Major problem was, as I expected, not near enough time to cover the great area of work done by the group - just as there's not enough time here to cover all of the misrepresentation (I'm convinced they were not deliberate)."Jim Carroll.
how can the making of a programme not be deliberate, of course it was deliberate, how can misrepresentation be accidental, the only was misrepresentation can be accidental is through incompetence if misrepresentation occurs in programmes and it is accidental it means someone has not checked their facts and is incompetent.
if Jim Carroll was not here to correct certain falsehoods, alot of people listening would have got a wrong impression, and MacColls reputation would have suffered, its disgraceful.
that is why another programme is needed, to balance matters, why was Jim Carroll not asked in the first place?

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 08:35 AM

"Also as a recording engineer would make me working class. "
Sorry folks - I really am only joking - you want to haer what I have to say about Slough - (of Despond fame)
Thanks all for the interest - will have a go as soon as it starts raining and I don't have to put up outside light.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 09:01 AM

Jim,

glad you got the recording and it worked.

I'll add my voice to those interested in your comments on the programme...

Pete.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 11:34 AM

"Does "entertainment" exclude thought - I'm sure Shakespeare and Beethoven thought not!!"

Wassailing songs, work songs, lullabies, sea shanties, drinking songs, broadsides, bawdy songs, comedy songs? Dunno if they were supposed to make people think! Maybe that was true of the long ballads, but I'm more inclined to see them as ripping yarns... I'm not opposed to thinking (I tried it once or twice and quite enjoyed it), but I don't really associate it with folk music... obviously people think a lot about folk music, but I suspect you can't whistle a Mudcat thread about Ewan McColl in the shower.

Or can you?

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 12:10 PM

Sometimes I sit and think and sometimes I just sit.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:33 AM

"unno if they were supposed to make people think!"
Nobody wants to "make" anybody think, but incan be good fun sometimes.
From the notes to the Texan Gladden album in the Alan Lomax series
"I have a perfect mental picture of every song I sing. I have a perfect picture of every person I learned it from, very few people I don't remember. When I sing a song, a person pops up, and it's a very beautiful story. I can see Mary Hamilton, I can see where the old Queen came down to the kitchen, can see them all gathered around, and I can hear her tell Mary Hamilton to get ready. I can see the whole story, I can see them as they pass through the gate, I can see the ladies looking over their casements, I can see her as she goes up the Parliament steps, and I can see her when she goes to the gallows. I can hear her last words, and I can see all just the most beautiful picture."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Baz Bowdidge
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:36 AM

The McColls former home:
Upper floor apartment of 35 Stanley Avenue, Beckenham sold for £278,000 in 2000.
click here
Today's valuation c.£500,000
Not working class, as Peggy said on D.I.Discs 'we had a middle class home'

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 09:06 AM

Class is a forever. From the 60s onwards loads of traditional "working class" jobs disappeared to be replaced by white collar jobs.

However E & P could be better descibed as "professionals". How defined? - A "Professional" is somebody who does a job but to a large extent decides how to do it.

No, I know that answers nothing, what did you expect a disertation? Like many people of our generation they bought a house because in the long term it was the best bet. In that time we have found our houses to be worth hundreds of thousands - We need a new Ballad - of Accountancy?

L in C#

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 09:21 AM

It's curious, isn't it? When a working class person gets him or her self an education and a career there always seem to be lots of, mainly middle class, 'socialists' around to label that person as some sort of 'class traitor'!

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:36 AM

nice interview with Carthy in this months Acoustic magazine plus an appreciation of Bert Jansch's career.

Subject: RE: M. Carthy on The Critics Group - Radio 4
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:52 AM

Anecdote told to me by Hugh MacDiarmid, the Scottish poet:

Friedrich Engels meets Karl Marx at the railway station and sees him descending from the First Class carriage.
Engels is shocked at this seemingly betrayal of class but Marx chastises him for being naive. "The purpose of Communism," said Marx, "is to abolish the Second and Third Class".