Three-chord songs

Subject: flat and sharp keys
From: jeffs
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 09:36 PM

I assume Hummingbird is talking about chords. For the purposes of the 3 chord songs you can use a capo and never have to play a non "cowboy" chord. A song in e flat is the same as a d with the capo at the first fret. Of course you'll have to transpose e flat to d; a flat to g; b flat to a.

Bar chords are just a pain. I cheat (I don't play guitar very often) by using half bar chords a lot. You can play an f chord with the first finger only on the top strings but you lose the bass note.

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Hummingbird
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 09:05 PM

Is there an "easy" way to play a #?? A friend told me if you capo on 1, you don't have to play sharps. Is she right????? I'm not a seasoned guitarist, but have played the flute for almost 20 years, so I have some musical training, but nothing formal. Also, bar chords, I have a terrible time with them!!!! Any suggestions?? Hummer.

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: _gargoyle
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 08:54 PM

Dear Weed Wackin' Walken' Gal

Take your three chords....

Have A Blast

Take a gander at this thread.....hereBlues Style Thread

And you've got about five years of enjoyment stored up for you....

YOUR HUMBLIST OF SERVANTS....gargoyle

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: _gargoyle
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 08:33 PM

Posting "early" so this must be friendly...or I got a gig later.

To keep the "music teachers" happy some "scarry stuff".....In reference to the previous two scales.... when the "added note" of the chord/scale goes downward not only does it sound cool it is called diminished......when the added note of the chord scale goes upward and has a lonesome sound looking for a home it is called augmented

The Blues thread has some wonderful stuff on this....

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: sophocleese
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 04:09 PM

If I didn't have a godawful cold at the moment I'd be singing the scales as well but at the moment its impossible. Thanks Gargoyle.

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Pete peterson
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 01:56 PM

I feel bad for Gargoyle. His last post was informative, interesting, and upbeat. "Enjoy Life! Celebrate" Yet posts before and after that are flaming him! Doesn't seem fair to me. did anybody ever hear of the Prisoner's Dilemma? On any given move the strategy is Cooperate (be a good guy) or Defect (be a bad guy). The winning strategy over a long enough time, empirically found, is 1) Don't be the FIRST to be a bad guy 2) Respond in kind to bad guys 3) When conduct changes, FORGIVE and cooperate

Seems like a good way to run one's life to me.

Back to the thread. I been singing those eight-note scales to myself and can't wait for the next jam to try to fit them in. THANKS

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 10:03 AM

Don't mention it Ted. But also let's keep smilin'. Some of it IS funny.

Ya got a deal Seed. Gargoyle, the verb: to disagree with a point of view, then add a personal attack for emphasis. Variations: 'goyled, garged'.

Rick

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 13 Oct 99 - 12:40 AM

Rick,

Thank you for the words of support--I will have to keep them in mind--and check the times!

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: _gargoyle
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 11:39 PM

Dear Sophocleese ---- Thank you again, for a VERY clear, peaceful, rendering of divergent views upon the same scene.

A peculiar paradox of music is that it is most freqently found in measures divisiable by 2.....ie.2/4, 4/4, 6/8, 8/8 time.....HOWEVER, our musical scale is built on a prime number ....ie. Seven

When improvising, and acompanying, (MODERN TUNES)it is essential that it follow on the BEAT A simple solution is found by "adding another note to the scale." Within the one-chord it is found by playing the fifth tone and then immediately following it with a "sharped fifth tone" (half a step higher).....ie. C C,D,E,F,G,G#,A,B,C

Within the the seven-chord once again raise the fifth tone (or seventh depending on reference point) ie. C7 E,F,G,A,Bb,B,C,D,E

The addition of the eighth note is a GREAT help to improvisation....

Scales are a valuable thing to master...and these "modified" eight note scales are also helpful to master. A first they are a challenge and soon you will believe that "you always knew them" and will wonder at those who haven't "learned the alphabet yet."

Scales can be FUN Vary them....use different rhythems......fight boredom.....ie. short, long, short, long, etc, or long, short, long, short, or short, short, long,.......be creative, see how many different, challenging, rhythmic, variations on three octove scales you can create.....

The "fun way" is the "best way"...."no way...if it ain't play." ENJOY!!!! LIFE!!!!! CELEBRATE!!!

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 10:12 PM

Rick, I wonder how long it will take for the verb to gargoyle and its passive form to be gargoyled to become part of the general language. I can see a country song coming out "I've Been Gargoyled by the Best; Don't Think that YOU Can Gargoyle me." Or someone who got drunk, got cussed out by his wife, and got pissed on by the dog might have been "oiled, boiled, and gargoyled." Were you the first use it as a verb, or was I?

--seed

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 07:43 PM

Well spoken Ted. Having recently been "Gargoyled" myself, I know too well how it takes the fun out of giving your "take" on technical things. Having been here for a year now, I know the modus operandi quite well however. If he posts during the day (San Diego time) he's literate, accurate and often quite helpful. If it's at night, watch out! The demons take over. Believe me it ain't normally the guys he goes after. Kat and Moonchild have been repeated victims.
I'm generally about the most easy going person on the planet but every so often he just gets to me, even though at different times we've all said "just ignore him". Ahh, what the hell, Mudcat's still the politest site on the net.

Rick

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: sophocleese
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 01:27 PM

I know two people who are both intelligent and knowledgable. When they travel and visit others they need directions like most of us. One of them likes to be told "Head north along such and such until you get to this and that and then turn west for 3.2 km..." the other likes to be told "When you get on such and such turn Right and drive till you get to this and that, where Freds' gas station is, and then take a left turn follow this road till you see a ..." They're both intelligent and capable of driving anywhere but they get confused if they have to follow the other's directions. Its a waste of time complaining about the way they each think,because they each think that what they do is so simple, its faster to give them comprehensive directions and they can use what they need. Music theory works the same way. Different bits are easier for some than for others. Need ANY of us cast aspersions on somebody else's attempt at explaining or understanding?

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 12:49 PM

Gargoyle, you have succeed in driving me out--I am not posting anything more to this thread and maybe just keeping my mouth shut about music theory in general--it isn't particularly easy to explain stuff, as least to explain it in a way that has some useful meaning, and I shouldn't have to put up with slurs as to my motives when I do it--

As to motives, I am inclined to question yours, since it does't help anyone to understand music any better to when your contribution is wrapped in an insult to other people who are trying to contribute--

In re-reading, I can't help but notice that the people you seem to direct your scorn, derision, and insults toward are men, and particularly men who have a degree of musical expertise and knowledge--

Enough said--

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Pete Peterson
Date: 12 Oct 99 - 10:19 AM

My favorite two chord song? Clementine! I used to use this as a "first song" for guitarists, teach D and the simple A7 chord that only uses two fingers. and sing the chorus over and over again with instructions "change chords on 'tine'" I quote another one of my heroes, Willard Gibbs-- "The function of theory is to find that vantage point from which experimental observations have the simplest explanation." Wyo, you probably have accumulated a large number of songs for which you have learned the chords by rote, and now you are asking yourself "is there some logic behind all this?" GREAT question, which is how this wonderful thread got started-- and I hope you can see some of the logic and simplifying principles (especially the circle of fifths concept) that helps it start to make sense. After that it can get more complicated again, but the goal is simplicity!

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: _gargoyle
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 10:25 PM

Shoo Flies....don't bother me....Shoo Flies don't bother me....Shoo Flies don't bother me.....for I belong to simplicity...... Please ignore the "music teachers" comments....who are terrified they are losing three additional years of paid lessons....because the "secrets of the guild" are being revealed.

I LOVE three chord songs....our modern (last 400years) Western Roots spring from them....

Another FUN THING to do.....is to take a favorite simple song and start it in seven different keys....(or even ONE OTHER KEY) ((it will add variety....and keep up your interest in a song you otherwise might grow tired of))ie C,D,E,F,G,A,F....when you get "sharp" at it..... add the five "sharp" keys....

Make this a goal...by the end of next summer....or next week....and SURPRISE!!!!! in the process of working it out....you have learned the "scales" in all twelve keys....(a VERY worthy attainment) starting note, whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half, whole

(fiddle players could REALLY confound this thread by pointing out the compromise the "Well Tempered Clavichord" made upon Western Music and the difference between TRUE "#'s", and "b's")

Have Fun...Be Safe...Work/Play Hard... and don't let the "music theorists" scare you...

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: kendall
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 02:05 PM

Very interesting threaD. Now, how many TWO chord songs do we know? I think it was in the twenties that someone wrote THE CONVICT AND THE ROSE. It was supposed to be a tongue in cheek thing, but, it became very popular, and was taken seriously by many.(This was before Orson Welles and War of the Worlds too) Chubby Wise called it the best 2 chord song ever written.

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 01:57 PM

MTed, despite his bombastic and often cryptic postings, every now and then Gargoyle manages to impart something useful. I was able to gain something from his posting above, if only after reading and rereading it--and suppressing my annoyment at his tendency to present himself as speaking for God bestowing his gifts upon mere mortals. I have certainly found your posts knowledgeable and informative, and I welcome your presence here--and I share some of your feelings about the guardian of the cathedral, but I like to commend him when he is being useful while retaining my right to chide him when his dark side comes to the surface. Anyway, I hope you stick around and continue to enlighten us. --seed

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 09:56 AM

Many thanks M.Ted, you have put my mind at ease. Yours truly, Non-theorist Neo

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Sourdough
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 01:44 AM

I don't know, M.Ted, Gargoyle's explanation made sense to me (and I hadn't expected that it would.) Perhaps we should see what other non-theorists think.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 01:23 AM

At the risk of sound like I am flaming you, Gargoyle--there are simple to understand and precise musical terms for what you are asking people to do here, and, because you are not using them, what you are telling people to do is more confusing than it need to be--

Rather than helping clarify, you are making this stuff scary by making it unnecessarily confusing--

Another point, and that is that you are not explaining anything about improvisation--you are just explaining how to go about playing a few "fills"--

I have studied 'music theory" for a long time, and I can play and write in a lot of different styles and genres, because I have taken the time to learn how things are put together--I am sure of one thing--music theory is not that simple or easy to understand--it takes work, and it takes time--The biggest problem that people trying to learn theory have is that they try to deal with way too much at a a time when they are teaching themselves--

It helps to have a good teacher(and that means a teacher who is a both good composer and a good explainer) it hurts to have a teacher who doesn't really quite know as much as they think they do, or one who oversimplifies--

For everyone who has been following this thread and got comfused, don't feel bad, there was a lot of stuff here, more than anyone can really process at once--to make matters worse, some of it was explained well, but some was not, and the only ones who can tell which was which are the ones who understand it already--

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: _gargoyle
Date: 11 Oct 99 - 12:34 AM

Thanx for taking the time to "work it out" my most honorable Mr. Seed.

MUSIC is so SIMPLE....and a demonstration goes far... yet it is so difficult to put into words....which can be easily followed.

In the interest of the beginner's I,IV,V simplicity....another "fun-thing" to play with....is something you, Mr. Seed, already know very well.....(the "secret" of the flated-seventh.

Take any phrase ending 7-chord and play it with the highest note, a half step lower. INTERESTING???? Sound??

Have Fun, Be Safe, Work/Play Hard

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 03:20 PM

Gargoyle, it took me a minute or two to figure out what you wrote above, but it works. Improvising has always been one of my weak points--my improvizations are usually based on the chromatic scale of the key I'm playing in, on the runs from one chord to the next--which is obviously limiting. You may have opened a new world for me. Thanks (this is the kind of thing that makes me happy you're back--your tone in your response to Rick is what keeps me from feeling totally at ease with your return). --seed

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: _gargoyle
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 12:54 PM

A simple way to render a basic I,IV,V tune and "jazz" it up....is:

1. Play the first phrase....
2. Use the 1/2 tones of the highest note of the chord
3. Play a descending or ascending four notes
4. Move on to the second phrase...and so forth

Explanation:
1. A phrase is where the tune pauses
ie....(1)Row, Row, Row your boat....(4half tones lower)... (2) Gently down the stream (4half tones higher)
ie... Won't you come Bill Baily (4half tones descending)Won't you come home (4half tones descending)
Mechanics and your ear tell you wether to go up or down.

2. The 1/2 tones are the frets on Guit/Banj... they are the blackkeys (key of C) on the piano/org...they are the slide bar on a fancy harmonica... by using 1/2 notes you are playing a chromatic scale.

The chromatics can begin as quarter notes....and then later you can experiment with eighths and dotted quarters...doubled noted and other embellishments....

Start with a simple tune...and play around with it....you'll be surprised...and most of all....

HAVE FUN!!!!

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: alison
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 08:40 AM

I think the problem with theory is that those of us who learnt it when we were very young found it VERY dull, not scary, just boring...... we wanted to play the music not learn all those fancy italian words. I went as far as grades allowed with theory.. not because I wanted to , but because it was necessary in order to do the practical music exams. It was dull at the time... but I am so glad I did it.. it helps all the time, especially with playing by ear. I remember thinking at the time.. why do I need to know the rules of writing 4 part harmony? I'm never going to write for a choir.. maybe not.. but it comes in handy writing arrangements for the different instruments in a band. Maybe it would have been more interesting to learn as an adult....... maybe we just need teachers who can make it more interesting. you don't need to know absolutely everything about theory... but certainly a grasp of the basics is a bonus if you want to play with others.

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Margo
Date: 10 Oct 99 - 02:13 AM

Yes Garg, music thoery isn't really hard. I know because I was good in music thoery class. But I must admit it was a surprise to me. A lot of it is just putting into technical terms what we know already from listening and playing. I used to have a circle of fifths "wheel", just like the verb wheels we used to have for French class. You dial up a tonic, and you get the dominant and subdominant in little windows. Funny, I had forgotton about that. Yep, it's the old I, IV, V pattern that is the basis for so many songs.....

Margarita

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: _gargoyle
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 11:58 PM

Dear sophocleese - thanx for a little oil on troubled waters....

Dear "neo"

Your name says it all.

Sit back, and observe Grasshopper.

If it is WORK....it ain't play....

If it ain't play....its probably not worth doing in the first place.

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 11:03 PM

Little Neo, you catch on quickly. --seed

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 11:00 PM

Gargoyle, I hope we're not going to have a return to the "I'm right and you're an idiot" tenor of your previous incarnation. You had contributed an awful lot of very good information on this thread--and several other recent ones: personally, I'm happy you're back, but I'm a bit uneasy about it as well.

Music theory IS easy and logical, when presented well--but many people, particularly those who learned from pedagogues who forced-fed it, end up afraid of it. What I have I got more or less by osmosis: I did learn the basics of music transcription in early music lessons, but had no idea of the meaning of it other than that the lines in the treble clef could be remembered as Every Good Boy Does Fine and the spaces as FACE, that the bass cleff was Good Boys Do Fine Always and All Cows Eat Grass, that natural notes were the white keys of the piano keyboard, that if they were sharped or flatted they became black notes, and about basic rhythmic patterns, note lengths, bars, etc. Knowledge about harmonic structure came as I needed it: tonic and dominant and subdominant chords, majors and minors and sevenths and the rest, the rule of fifths and its usefulness in transcribing tunes to fit my range and in figuring out chord progressions by ear, came as my ear developed and my repertoire grew. But if all this had been presented to me as stuff I had to memorize without knowing its usefulness, I'd probably never have got it. Not that I have enough of it for you to consider me a musician--but I'll bet Rick does, and does a damned good job of communicating it.

--seed

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: sophocleese
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 10:53 PM

There is a middle way. Theory need not be terrifying. Its a series of puzzles, an exploration into relationships, and a new language. On an intellectual level if you can cut up two dimensional fabric and sew it together to create a three dimensional object then you can understand theory. Theory is a helpful tool. It can help you name things that you're hearing and it can also lead your ear into new territory. Gargoyle's comments aren't really scary and neither are Rick's. They comment on their own personal experience with a particular subject. The subject is still there and you can approach it in whatever fashion you wish to; challenge, bugbear, mild interest or impossible dream. I find theory fascinating but know that my knowledge of it is piecemeal and that my ear needs far more training. I still sing because I like singing. I don't feel either big or small I feel human.

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 10:31 PM

Boy Gargoyle you sure have a knack for making someone feel worthless. Neo

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: _gargoyle
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 09:00 PM

Rick we obviously have a diametrically opposed view of the term "musician."

Your words "scary and forced and AK47" applied to the SIMPLEST of theory....is truly scary.

Just because someone creates pomes-fritz at a MickyD's does make them a "chef."

Just because someone plays with a group or produces a record doesn't make them a "musician."

A man with a wrench... isn't a tool and die maker... anymore than a person dressed in white with a scalple... is a surgeon.

A "musician" should be a master of their field...they should read, they should write, they should transpose, they should improvise, they should accompany.

A person that cannot play by ear is no more a musician than the person that cannot read music. Illitacy abounds in all fields and many of the quacks sqwack the longest.

A child with a coffee-can drum knows what FUN is....he doesn't give a hoot about syncopathic rhythms....he has fun. When music becomes, scary, and forced it ceases to be fun and the spirit of play is lost.

For most of us .... music is an amusing toy; and few have the talent, ambition, discipline, opportunity to become "musicians."

Most "three chord players" have a lifetime of pleasure ...And This Is As It Should Be.........

as long as they don't meet up with a "professional AKA 47 approach teacher" that scares them away.

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 07:48 PM

Dear Gargoyle, how right you are! All those folks who approach learning to read music with trepidation need is a swift kick in the pants. Stupidly, I never realised just how "biased" my views were (especially since I apparently have wasted literally thousands of words here on Mudcat, trying to HELP demystify those little "henscratches and flyspecks" (as Pete Seeger calls music notation). Instead I've been "frightening them off", oh, and advocating some kind of "elitist" point of view. Ahh, perhaps in the "old Mudcat" I'd have been put in my place quickly, before all this damage could have been done. I'll leave this thread quietly now.

Rick

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 02:53 PM

Gargoyle, in my personal experience with Rick Fielding as my music teacher I have found his approach to music theory to be practical, simplistic and realistic. He dismantles the intimidation, and instructs the material creatively which constantly captures my interest. Little Neophyte

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: _gargoyle
Date: 09 Oct 99 - 04:55 AM

Rick you are WRONG!!!! such biased views frighten many away....(and keeps music to an 'eleat' few) Quote..."One problem inherent in learning theory is it's plain scary! "////////

It is simple, it is LOGICAL,,,, and IT IS FUN!!!! Nothing "scary" about it.

Tim C's approach is BEAUTIFUL in its simplicity...check out his site....remember the ancient admonition when working with students...KISS...

In regard to the Jazz question...Let us build on the classic "Bill Baily" example of the honorable Mr. Seed.

After the first three notes of the tune, the audience instictively has an understanding of the key and the direction the melody is going, even if they don't know how to play an instrument or read notes. It is cultural.

It is the pleasure of the Jazz musician to tease, to tantalize, to "create harmonic puzzles/mazes" and then solve them for the listener. When inprovising, sometimes the performer will find himself "trapped" in an area of new territory or even "lost" ( In which case they will follow the same progression backwards out of the area...and then plunge right back in along the same thread looking for the "solution... the resolution." It is this "game" which the audience delights in...consciously, or without cognition.

This is easier heard than read: Starting with the original melodic line of "Bill Baily" and its chord transitions...we may decide to embellish the notes within the first phrase....perhaps we "double" every other one, or slip in additional notes, or insert chromatic half tones along the way....or turn to a "5-7 chord" when resolution was expected...so many things happen "accidently." Serendipity is at work in Jazz. It is a process of themes and VARIATIONS...

The "audience" (including the player) know where we are going...we just want to keep them wondering "IF" or "WHEN" we will get there...

There is little room for this... within the "digital tradition" which attempts to catalogue and record precise historic melodies....however, within the "oral tradition" it is the source of so many themes and variations that have found their way into the finely woven tapistry of song with threads borrowed from other lands and ages.

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 11:15 PM

This is very true Wyo Woman, the history is intriguing. It was the depth of theory content that was making me dizzy. Little Neo

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: WyoWoman
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 11:08 PM

Lil Neo -- Nah, you don't need to understand all that stuff. But I think it's fascinating. I absolutely love the history of music (although I don't know that much about it) and the theory that has evolved out of that history. It's just good, clean "mind fun" for me.

But it also helps provide depth to your understanding of the music, to know where it came from and how it's been put together.

WW

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 10:59 PM

Julie Andrews my ass Rick.....it was Woody

Spaw

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 10:52 PM

Thanks Alice. When I want to fantasize, I put on an album of Gregorian Chants and sing along in my fractured latin. I can so easily take myself back in time, and the visual images start to surround me...then the phone rings and some damn telemarketer starts asking if...........

Hey, there's ALL kinds of fantasies!

Rick

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Alice
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 10:43 PM

Here is one source with an explanation of how 'do re me' came to be. I will quote in part and then give a link to the entire article, which is interesting.

" Guido D'Arezzo, a monk who lived in the early 11th century devised a version of the staff that is the precursor of today's staff. Some of his practices also contributed to "sight-singing"--the reading of music at sight. He also started the practice of using the Latin syllables of Do, Re, Mi, Fa, etc. to symbolize pitches. "

So you can blame it on Guido. Here's the website:
click here Music of the Middle Ages and Rennaissance

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: sophocleese
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 04:26 PM

The concept of usong names for notes has been around since, at least, gregorian times. This is what my husband tells me. Doh used to be called 'ut'. Anymore information will just have to wait for some keen historian to tell us.

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 01:23 PM

That is a good comment--you need to understand the music that you are playing and how it works--as a folk musician, you are your own arranger, so the better you understand what has been done and what is possible, the more interesting you can make your music--

As to other stuff--my big complaint was that there were a lot of simple things that I needed to understand about music and my instrument that no one ever told me, because they were busy either dispensing a standard academic lecture on classical music theory, or a very idiosyncratic discourse on something that they happened to really like--

As a musician, you are confronted by your limitations every day--if you understand the basic theory of what you are doing, it lays the foundation for you to move ahead--but it is easy to get buried by all the non-essential but important sounding stuff, and get so confused that you just stay put!!

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 12:55 PM

Do I really need to learn all this theory to become a good banjo player? I like Rick's approach, keep it simple. Is the music theory that essential? Will I eventually be confronted with my own limitations because I'm weak in theory? Little Neo

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 12:46 PM

PeterT--I knew you were just overgeneralizing to make a historical point, and I was just jumping on you because I am obsessive-compulsive about details--but now these people have gotten to the point where they want to know where the scale comes from-- from Neil Lowe "How the originator came up with these particular sounds for the notes of the scale is for more musicological-ly minded minds than mine to explain."

The secret answer is that the development of scales--and the assignment of pitch values to them, was a process that began a long time ago--with Pythagoras as far as our records show, (but I'll bet that he was just trying to straighten out some questions and problems that were floating around at the time)--

Basically, there are three perfect intervals the fourth(g-c) and the fifth(C-G), and the octave, and the descending minor third (c-am--which is "It's raining, its pouring) that seem natural to the voice--they tend to occur in some form in musical material from all cultures (though there is a scale in Arabic classical music that rather perversely eliminates the octave, and the Locrian mode has an augmented fifth rather than a perfect fifth)--the other notes in between, as well as whether there are other notes, and how many there should be, has been up for grabs--and to a surprising degree, still is--

The diatonic scale, the do re mi thing, was one of a bunch of church modes that have been used in western music since about the 8th century--those were based on the ancient greek modes--The actual pitches used for those notes weren't settled on til the times we mentioned above, when even temperament was introduced--but when the classical period began, Western composers began to work with the major and minor scales, exclusively--

Today, with the use of a lot of bent and twisted notes from Jazz, use of microtones, and even totally new scale systems, there is a lot of redefinition of what comprises a scale, and there are a number of composers who actually create new scales and pitch assignments for each composition--

As far as folk music goes, musicologists have always fought over what pitches were what--the early collectors of spirituals evened out the bent notes altogether--and ethnomusicolgists still like to discuss what that blue note is--and whether it is an ornament or a scale element--and don't even mention scales from eastern and middle Eastern music traditions!

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: sophocleese
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 11:33 AM

Drat! Rick, that was my first guess. Now I'll actually have to try and find out. The only thing so far is that the Shorter Oxford Dictionary says it comes from the 18th century and is Italian.

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 10:20 AM

Good question though, where'd the terms do, re, mi, come from? If someone says Julie Andrews I'll scream!

Rick

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 10:07 AM

If I understand your question correctly, Big Man, the Do-Re-Mi stuff corresponds to the notes in the scale of any particular key. In the key of C, then Do = C; Re = D; Mi = E; Fa = F; So = G; La = A; Ti = B..."and that will bring you back to 'Do'." In the key of G, Do = G; Re = A; Mi = B...and so on. How the originator came up with these particular sounds for the notes of the scale is for more musicological-ly minded minds than mine to explain.

Regards, Neil

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: The Big Man
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 09:19 AM

Okay,If I'm following this correctly where on earth does Doh, Ray, Me etc come from? Has it always been there? Is it the equivalent of C,G etc? Perhaps this is why I have such a hardtime tuning the guitar, although I can play 'Man of the world' on one and sometimes two strings.

Ritchie

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: TimC
Date: 08 Oct 99 - 07:44 AM

Hi yall,

My approach to teaching 3 & 4-chord trick is to use the methods listed above using 1,4,5 and flattened 6 for the relative minor. This has even worked with a seven-year-old(with the help of cardboard rotating Chordfinder).

The intervals on the scale I teach as: tone-tone-semitone-tone-tone-tone-semitone

This seems to work as well. My website gives it in table form. http://Tim_Canniffe.tripod.com/theory1.htm

As for why some music sounds good and some bad, my science experience agrees with all that has been said, but I always use my Psycho-Acoustic theory of music, which I shall expound on some day but it includes the following points:

- The fifth chord with a seventh always needs resolution to the fourth or the first chord.

- A suspended 4th is a handy way of building tension

- Even tone-deaf people will always notice when your guitar is out of tune!

Keep up the thread, it's very enjoyable and informative

TIM

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Alice
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 12:43 PM

Spaw, I hoped to keep gargoyle on the roll he was on... it was good. My favorite jazz is the old stuff like "Stuff Smith".

Subject: RE: Three-chord songs
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Oct 99 - 10:10 AM

One problem inherent in learning theory is it's plain scary! Unless you were forced at AK47 point to learn as a child it can be very daunting, especially if it's in aid of your hobby (folk music, blues, country etc.)and you also see that many great musicians can't read a note.
I had a neighbour once who would sit down at her piano at 11am every morning and play gloriously for an hour. From upstairs, I would try to predict what she might offer that day, Rachmaninov's "C#m"? A Chopin Polanaise? I'd get a book and read for the hour while enjoying her offerings, always impressed with her timing and dynamics - the whole ball of wax. One day there was a birthday party for a mutual friend in my neighbour's apartment, and while the candles were being blown out, I noticed my neighbour madly searching through her voluminous pile of sheet music for 'Happy Birthday"!! "Richard", play it, quickly, she asked," I couldn't believe that she was so locked in to her music that she couldn't play something that simple by ear. Over the next few months we talked a lot about music, and I found that along with extensive piano lessons as a child she'd also been indoctrinated about "good and bad" music by her parents and music teacher. I started bringing albums over for her to listen to - stuff like "The Hot Five", "Bix", Ellington, (I knew enough not to try Bill Evans or even Art Tatum at that point). She hated it all. Once I tried to get her to listen to "In a Mist" and went through all the stuff about Bix mixing styles etc. She just said "I think that's SO vulgar"! Sadly the 11am concerts stopped. I never asked, but I think she felt that since I loved "that silly noise" as she called (pretty trad) jazz, I couldn't possibly appreciate her renditions of the classics.

If I'm working with students on any kind of theoretical approach, it's ALWAYS after we've spent a substantial amount of time on learning to play by ear, learning to improvise AND learning to play with others (on their terms). Good jams are one hell of a lot of fun. I don't use any books on theory when I'm working with neophytes, just get 'em to memorize "Do Re Mi etc", then put the note "C" to the "Do", and then put the number "1" to the "C" and the "Do". It's much less intimidating, and pretty soon they know that a lot of folksongs, blues, and country songs are just good ol' 1, 4, 5.

Rick