BS: whence came 'gal?'

Subject: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 04:38 PM

I went looking for the origin of the term "gal" and found this: slang pronunciation of girl, 1795, execrated as a Cockney vulgarism. Gal Friday is 1940, in reference to "Robinson Crusoe.".

I also found a discussion group of what seemed to be mostly women, some of whom didn't mind the term, some who found it derisive and racist based on past Southern history.

I grew up hearing it used most of the time in the West and find myself still using it. In the 1990s, when I was in a discussion group with a professor from Kenya, he gently chided me for saying "you guys" when speaking of or to mixed gender groups. After discussing it more with him and the others we met with, the best address we came up with was "folks."

I am wondering, sometimes when I hear speech from various places in the UK, it sounds as though "girl" really is "gel." So, could our out West "gal" be derived from that? And, does that all tie back into Cockney connection?

So, guys and gals, what sezya?:-)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 04:41 PM

Can't really help you there gel....gal.....woman..whatever LOL

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Will Fly
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 04:48 PM

I've always been puzzled by the "you guys" appellation for a mixed gender group. Always seemed to me to be ever-so-slightly sexist, but I just assumed it was par for the course in the US.

As far as "gal" is concerned, it was quite upper-class in the UK until quite recently to call a young girl a "gel". Still, better than a "filly", doncha know...

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 04:56 PM

She: "Sweetie, would you like to carry me up to bed, like you did when we were married?"

He: "Ummm... I don't think so, dear."

She: "You aren't a gallant as when I was gal."

He: "Well, you aren't as buoyant as when I was a boy."


(perhaps a 'gal' is what one is gallant to)

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 05:42 PM

LOL...I knew I could count on you lot!

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: JennieG
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 05:48 PM

I've always thought of 'gal' as an Americanism - here in Oz we tend to refer to each other (often mockingly) as 'girls'.....for instance, at a meeting of one of my quilt groups our president will say "now girls....."

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 05:50 PM

'Guys' has become pretty unisex in the US, in the last generation or so.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: gnomad
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 06:02 PM

Earliest known examples of 'girl' (around 700 years ago) denoted a small child, irrespective of gender. Even through to Shakespearean time something girlish meant something foolish or childish rather than female.

The actual origin of the word girl is unresolved, but I've a feeling that wasn't really the question.

I agree that gal is most likely a corruption of girl, but where and when?

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Anne Lister
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 06:11 PM

For my head teacher we were always "gels", but that was her attempt at sounding posh, I think. There was the immortal sentence one day in school assembly ..."It has come to my attention that gels are spending time at the chip shop with boys and other things."   Of course I knew about the boys, but what exactly were the other things?

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Raedwulf
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 06:12 PM

Gal & gel are both purely down to accent (American or upper-class English, as you please). Guy is a bit less clear cut. The OED has it down as an Americanism that can be applied to either sex. I wouldn't disagree with that, except to say that I've never heard it used as a feminine noun. Male, yes; unisex / mixed group, yes; never in reference to an exclusively female group.

It's a bit like "man" in that regard. Man doesn't actually mean "male", except by common (mis-)usage. It means "person". Originally, it needed to be qualified, which is where we get wife from, for example (Wife-man - the person that weaves). So all those rabid... people... that insisted that we should be saying personhole cover, chairperson, and etcetera were, I am afraid, displaying nothing except their ignorance of the language they thought they were speaking!

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 07:14 PM

This sent me to my handy dandy Oxford English Dictionary.

Gal, vulgar or dial. pronunciation of girl.
1842, Orderson Creol. xv 173, You should speak to the gal first.
1845 Hood Love has not Eyes, He'll swear that in her dancing she cuts all others out, Though like a Gal thats galvanised, she throws her legs about.

Not much help.

I have heard 'gel' in England, and seen it in print. No idea how old it is.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 07:31 PM

In the OED Supplement (1987, I found an earlier example.

Gal, 1795, B Dearborn, Columbian Grammar, Improprieties, commonly called vulgarisms (include).. Gal for girl.
Also
1824, J. Wight, Mornings at Bow Street. 132 Gal- Cockney for girl.

1837, Dickens, Pickw. iv 39 My daughters, gentlemen- my gals they are.
ibid. xxxii 343 You are a nice girl, and nothin' but it.

This establishes the origin as indubitably English, Cockney.

(My grandson has picked up the word 'indubitably' from reading, and unfortunately he uses it when he means 'That's so'). I don't think I ever heard it in speech except in British moving pictures.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 07:50 PM

then there's 'gahl' -- usage early 19th century US, in print.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 07:59 PM

gahl- the OED seems to have missed that one. In print where?

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 09:38 PM

have to dig it out. i might be thinking of 'g'hals'. it was in a 'lower class accent' context, possibly bowery.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 10:39 PM

I have heard women (or girls) address a group of women (or girls) as "you guys."

I believe the word "guys" is there to make it clear that "you" (in this case) is plural. Otherwise "you" can be ambiguous.

Well, it's better that "all yous guys" which I have also heard.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 11 - 11:49 PM

You-plural is yuns in Pittsburgh or y'all in many parts of the American southeast.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Crowhugger
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 12:10 AM

...continuing the thread drift a bit, someone I know from Colorado says "y'all" to mean you singular, and "all y'all" to mean you plural. But maybe she picked that up from the Texan she married.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 12:37 AM

'Gel' was an upper class pronunciation of about 1860s-80s/90s, I think. I remember once seeing a very good production of The Importance of Being Earnest [Oscar Wilde, 1895] in which the director had the, I thought, excellent throwaway idea of having Lady Bracknell, scion of the previous generation, say 'gel', while the 'modern' young people, Gwendolyn, Cecily, Jack, Algernon, all said 'girl': I remember mentioning this in my review as the mark of a really careful director determined to capture the period accurately.

Raed ~ remember the, I think slightly tongue-in-cheek, suggestion of having the great city in Lancashire pronounced Personchester?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 02:40 PM

In Norfolk UK for generations, they've referred to a woman as 'the gal Sarah' or 'the gal Jill' etc. Even an elderly lady would be addressed thus:- "Are yew orlroit, gal?"
The plural of 'you' is often 'yous' in various parts of the UK, especially in the north eg Liverpool and Scotland ("See yous later!") I detest 'you guys' but I suppose we have to accept that language is constantly developing and changing.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 04:19 PM

"Guys" in New England were definitely males in Maine when I was growing up, back in the Pleistocene. I remember being startled in the late 1960's when I first heard "you guys" being applied to a mixed gender group in Michigan. That usage has since drifted back to Maine.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 06:41 PM

I imagine it's probably been around all the time as a variation in pronunciation, often by people who'd write it down as "girl". It's tended to be particularly current among the gentry, and I suspect that's still the case.

Incidentally the Middle English word from which "girl" came meant a child of either sex.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 07:21 PM

This has been fun, folks. Thanks for all of your digging, referencing, commenting, etc.

CH, I've never heard a native Coloradan say "all y'all," though I suppose there may be some "y'alls" in the mix from Southerners who came here after the War of the Rebellion/Civil War. Not the ones in my family, though. I'll bet your friend did pick up a little "South in the mouth" from her husband. LOL

Thanks again, guys and dolls gals,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Dec 11 - 08:02 PM

Yo and yo'all southern, singular and plural in Georgia. I have heard all yo'all used to refer to a larger number than just a few, but I think it is not often used. Raised in NM and CO, only heard Texas and other southern visitors use it there.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 01:00 AM

Katlaughing, with her throwaway strike reminds us that in NY of the 20s/30s {& everywhere else of course} as recorded by the great Damon Runyon, guys were male & dolls weren't; as perpetualised in the title of the great musical based on one of his stories. (D Runyon IIRC never used 'gal', tho would sometimes make a particularly bad-mannered character like Big Jule use a term like 'pancake'; sometimes he specifies some of such regrettable and disrespectful terms* that could be used in place of the acceptable 'doll'!]. But 'guy' became unisexed, esp in relation to a group [or even couple ~ 'how are you guys doing?', a US friend would greet my late wife & me] ~ some time in 50s/60s, I should estimate.

~M~

*"Judies", "pancakes", "tomatoes", "broads" &c

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Megan L
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 02:33 AM

Lassie lassie whit weys dae ye expect me tae ken whit thon wierd fowk whit hing on tae Scotlands shirt tails cry thier lassies :)

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 07:17 AM

At school in Bristol in the 60s/70s I was often addressed as 'girl' or 'you girl' when being told off about something which was quite often which is probably why I have never been keen on it! My first boss was from Leeds and called me lass which I quite liked. Now years later I am mostly called guy especially within a mixed group of people. I have got used to it and have no problem with it but my parents who are in their 80s take exception to being addressed collectively as guys.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 08:15 AM

It sounds as if the relevant thing was that perhaps you liked your first boss more than your teachers. If they'd told you off as "lass" that might have put you off the expression for life...

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 09:32 AM

Funny you should say that McGrath my ex-husband used to (jokingly) call me wench when he wanted food, to this day I wince when I hear wench.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 11:21 AM

can't make a clicky one-handed, so cut-and-paste away!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%27hoy_and_g%27hal

[link made and edited one handed -- clever elf]

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 11:27 AM

Interesting thought. 'Gal' comes from 'girl', but we would never refer to an actual girl (someone aged 1 to 12) as a gal.

I've never liked 'gal', and now that I think about it, I don't think I've heard that term in years.

In recent years I have revived 'damsel' as a word for a young woman. I don't feel right calling someone 16, say, a woman. She's too young. So I went back to 'damsel.'

By the way, I probably would not use 'you guys' to refer to a mixed group.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 12:29 PM

but we would never refer to an actual girl (someone aged 1 to 12) as a gal.

All depends who "we" are. An awful lot of people would use it precisely that way, because that's the way they pronounce the word.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 04:57 PM

Damsel? How about maiden fair?

One I heard several times in Texas was "big old gal," not meant to be demeaning or referring to age. It referred to tall, impressive women.

I remember when a man would refer to his wife as "the little woman." Nowadays that would lead to a sudden encounter with hard object.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: JennieG
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 05:10 PM

You know how our parents always called us by our full names when we were in trouble? My mother never called me Jennifer (my full name), always Jennie....but I knew I was in trouble when she called me "my girl"......"now see here, my girl".....!

Cheers
JennieG who will answer to Jennie or Jennifer but never, never Jen

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 06:02 PM

from whence came 'boy'?

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Bert
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 08:51 PM

Gal or Gel is used by Cockneys, the pronunciation varying according to context with Gal being slightly more formal than Gel.

I would guess that the origin is from the very light pronunciation of R in the South of England where R is pronounced with the top front teeth resting on the lower lip.

This makes it very easy to drop the R altogether.

The term is often used on occasions where the expression Luv would seem too familiar.

Dad used to sing this song....

Sal was me Gal and everyone called her a Daisy.
Now other blokes Donahs are all very nice
but Sal was a Daisy, no kid.
She had one fault, was dancing and near drover her crazy.
Said she was dying to go on the stage
so one night she went and she did.
First night she danced, I was in the gallery
Sal's frock was short, it didn't reach her knees
one Bob a night, that was all her salary
and when she came out, she never noticed me.

So, never let yer Donah, go upon the stage,
unless you want to bring some sleepless nights on,
for I tell yer as a pal, you're sure to lose yer Gal
the moment that she gets the bloomin' tights on.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 10:09 PM

Donah, usually became doney in the States. Not heard any more.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: MarkS
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 11:54 PM

I just had a very rude thought about where "gal" might have come from, but in the interest of holiday comradship and good cheer I will keep it to myself!
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 03:24 PM

Checked to see if DT had "My Gal Sal." It does.

Subject: RE: BS: whence came 'gal?'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 11 - 03:47 PM

    I've got a pal,
    A reg'lar out an' outer,
    She's a dear good old gal,
    I'll tell yer all about 'er.
    It's many years since fust we met,
    'Er 'air was then as black as jet,
    It's whiter now, but she don't fret,
    Not my old gal

    We've been together now for forty years,
    An' it don't seem a day too much,
    There ain't a lady livin' in the land
    As I'd "swop" for my dear old Dutch...