2012 Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster

Subject: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 10:55 AM

I am sorta surprised no one posted this...but especially for Rap, here it is:Darth Vader's stand-in

Bob Anderson, who fenced for England in the Olympics and went on to help create some of Hollywood's greatest sword fights, choreographing bladework and coaching actors from Errol Flynn to Antonio Banderas, and who appeared on-screen himself as Darth Vader, crossing lightsabers with Mark Hamill (as Luke Skywalker) in the original "Star Wars" trilogy, died on Sunday in West Sussex, England. He was 89.

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Charmion
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:31 PM

Fencing keeps you fit.

Mr Anderson emigrated to Canada and lived for a long time here in Ottawa, where he had a day job as the boss of the Canadian Fencing Association. He also developed the Canadian Olympic fencing program.

Here's the story that appeared in today's Ottawa Citizen: "He lived by the sword" by Tony Lofaro

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:36 PM

Yes, I saw that. "Choreographed" is the correct term for movie bladework -- otherwise someone WOULD get hurt. However, there is NO evidence that anyone who was in a real swordfight ever swung from the chandeliers. Lots of other things that you can't do in sport fencing (like a disarm or smashing your pommel into a guy's face), but not swinging from the ceiling.

Too bad. He'll be missed. I hope he's drinking and carousing with Cyrano, Athos, Porthos, Hutton and the rest of the boys.

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 01:54 PM

There appears to be some disagreement amongst fencing buffs who comment on the various choreographed fencing work on YouTube, with some claiming that other fencing masters were better than Bob Anderson.

Knowing nothing about fencing, I couldn't possibly comment but, following the arguments here and there, I came across this, with Tyrone Power and Basil Rathbone, which seemed a superb creation:

Duel from "The Mark of Zorro"

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:52 PM

By far, the best duel scene I have ever seen in any movie, and I've seen a lot of them.

My qualifications to judge? I started fencing at the age of fourteen, having overdosed on Errol Flynn movies and novels by Rafael Sabatini (Captain Blood, Scaramouche, Master-at-Arms, a total of around seventy novels altogether, some made into Hollywood swashbucklers), took lessons from several teachers, including one U. S. Olympic Team coach, and a year's lessons from a former student of Aldo Nadi. I have a nice collection of trophies and medals.

It's my understanding that Tyrone Power's mother was Senior Ladies' Fencing Champion of Ohio; she taught him to fence when he was a kid, and he went on to fence competitively. Basil Rathbone was also a competitive fencer and he was reputed to be the best fencer in Hollywood. One of his big jobs was to make Errol Flynn look good in movies like Captain Blood and The Adventures of Robin Hood. Flynn was all flash and dash, with no real fencing technique (someone once described him as "swash from the neck up and buckling from the knees down!").

It is also my understanding that fight director Fred Cavens was slated to direct the duel scene in the alcalde's study in The Mark of Zorro. But Power and Rathbone politely escorted him to the door and worked out the choreography of the duel between themselves, then practiced the moves together very slowly, so that each knew exactly what the other was going to do. They were doing some damned dangerous stuff in that duel scene, so they needed to have it all carefully worked out before they brought it up to speed. They were using light-weight regulation competitive fencing sabers, and although the cutting-edge is only theoretical, one of those slender blades across the face can leave one helluva welt!

The only clankers in the scene were that the action was taking place in the early 1800s in California, and the weapons, as I said, were modern competitive fencing sabers (I have two of them, bought from a fencing equipment catalog), much lighter than the bloody-great curved cavalry sabers they would have been using back then.

And the technique that Rathbone, in particular, was using was the modern Hungarian-Italian school of saber fencing that was developed by Italo Santelli, who wasn't born until 1866.

Anachronisms notwithstanding, it's a great duel scene!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:22 PM

I noticed that they were using fencing sabers. In reality, I would have thought small swords or Spanish-style rapiers; nonetheless, it's a great scene. (I still think that sharpening the points and edges would bring a new dimension to sport fencing.)

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 07:25 PM

Oh, yes. Having worked out "sword fights" for theater, I can assure you that that scene was rehearsed until they could have done it in their sleep. Running someone through can really raise the liability rates for a theater.

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: GUEST,EBarnacle on a friend's machine
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 08:01 PM

Sharpening edges and point may lead to more inspired fecing but it would make parents less willing to allow their kids to try out.

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 08:17 PM

On the other hand, I would nominate, for the most moronic duel scene in any movie, the final confrontation between André (Stewart Granger) and the Marquis (Mel Ferrer) in the 1952 manifestation of Scaramouche.

The novel by Rafael Sabatini (CLICKY) was, and still is, one of my favorite historical novels, and one of the great historical novels of all time. The background for the action of the novel is the beginning of the French Revolution. The confrontation between André-Louis Moreau and the Marquis de la Tour d'Azyr, who murdered André-Louis' best friend Philippe in a mock duel, takes place in the Bois de Boulogne outside of Paris on a cold and misty morning—a formal duel, with seconds and all. Sabatini's description of the action is exciting, and it is also sufficiently technical to please any avid fencer.

How did Hollywood handle the confrontation? Well—

The weapons are authentic. The French smallsword, a lightweight weapon worn by powdered-wigged gentlemen of that era. The smallsword is a deadly weapon, but it has only a point. No cutting edge. So how would one manage all that slashing of curtains and drapes, pruning of shrubbery, and cutting of ropes with a weapon with no cutting-edge? You tell me!

Most people probably found it exciting and breathtaking. But I'm afraid I found it somewhere between slapstick comedy and abject stupidity.

Hollywood strikes again!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 09:50 PM

That ranks right up with cowboys leaping onto horses from roofs and stopping stagecoaches by leaping into the harnesses and dragging their feet.

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 10:16 PM

Don, I'm glad I never saw that before. I had some good laughs.

You could, I suppose, sharpen a small sword's edges (at least you could with the one I have), but I don't know what advantage that would give you. Better to use a mortuary sword, a backsword, or some other weapon designed for both cut AND thrust.

I also wonder how long a small sword's blade would hold up to all of that whacking on the edge before it would break off.

On a related note, I went to see my allergist today. His name is Parry; I suggested he go into partnership with doctors named Cutt and Thrust. His kids fence so he got the joke.

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 09:11 AM

This one's for Don!!

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Charmion
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:33 PM

I happen to possess a French smallsword, which I inherited from my frankly odd parents.

It's a little shorter than and weighs about as much as a Léon Paul fencing épée. The blade is triangular in section -- i.e., a spike with three edges -- and all three edges are sharpened from the point to about halfway up the blade. The hilt is starkly plain, with a cut-steel grip, a minimal knucklebow and short quillons. Its balance is perfect, an

One could, if necessary, slash curtains and upholstery with it, but I don't think it would cut rope because the edge doesn't go back into the forte of the blade.

For stabbing people, on the other hand, it's perfect.

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:51 PM

Like this? Or more like a colichemarde?

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 01:58 PM

Rap - a question from an ignoramus to someone who obviously knows a lot about the subject:

How flexible were the various blades used in real combat? And, therefore, how effective were they?

Rapiers appeared to be extremely flexible - almost whiplike at speed - and sabres much more rigid. In some, albeit choreographed and directed scenes, the swords appear to actually be bent - would this have happened in reality? I was under the impression that steel blades were flexible and strong enough to stay in shape.

But, hell, what do I know...?

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 02:23 PM

Depends on the sword and the era. Modern fencing foils can bend almost into a U shape -- but you have to straighten them out if it gets too bad (you want a slight bend). These are designed for sport; if the blades were thicker they would puncture instead of bend and running someone through can ruin your match even with electronic scoring and all that stuff. The foil blade is basically thin and square.

Epees, which are rather triangular in their blades, are heavier and do not bend as readily as a foil. That's as it should be, because epees evolved from the rapier and small sword. In foil, the torso is the targat, in epee it's the whole body (front and back in all cases).

A sport saber has a rectangular blade and is descended from the slashing sabers used by cavalry and dragoons. It was intended to be used as a cutting instrument (although you can use the point as well). In sport saber the torso and the arms are targets.

ALL sport weapons are blunt on edge and point, and the points are bated with rubber or plastic tips. There is A LOT of safety stuff in all sorts of fencing but especially in sport fencing.

A true rapier might have a fairly flexible blade, but it might not. Depends on the school and preferences of the owner. The French, the Italians, the Germans, the Spanish, the Hungarians and for all I know the Estonians all had their own schools of the sword. Mostly you don't want your blade to become easily nicked (it'll break first there) or to be so flexible it can't pierce heavy clothing, etc.

Getting to other swords, like the backsword (the so-called "claymores" of the Highlanders), these can be used for both cut and thrust. Tough blades, only barely flexible.

The saber made for use reached it's peak with the 1913 Patton saber (George Patton, the General, was an Olympic fencer). This was just in time for it to be tossed out as a military weapon, but it's still probably the best one ever designed. The saber originated (as much as you can say things like that) from the Hungarian saber, which of course has a lineage back through the Muslim swords, and...well, you get the idea. Anyway, it was intended to be used to chop at people from horseback, whether those people were also on horses or on the ground. The blade was heavy, as you'd expect a meat cleaver to be.

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 02:39 PM

Thanks, Rap - very interesting and instructive.

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Charmion
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:16 PM

Hi, RaP:

The drawing of the colichemarde is very close to my sword, but the foible of the blade in the drawing looks round, while mine has a triangular blade. The triangular structure makes the blade very strong; I believe it was designed for skewering an opponent, and for rapid extraction to allow the wielder to continue pressing his attack.

I also possess a rather delapidated 17-century Spanish rapier, also inherited. (The metal parts are fine, but the wooden grips on the handle have dried out and mostly fallen away, leaving the wire wrapping sort of, you know, just hanging there.) It is a long, strong weapon with a bell guard, long stout quillons, and a sturdy knucklebow made to accommodate heavy gauntlets; it also has a nice motto engraved on the blade (very snazzy). No, it does not bend much. The wear on the blade indicates that it saw considerable service.

I differ with you on your analysis of sabre development, but only slightly. The British Army's 1908-pattern sabre is almost identical to the 1913 U.S. weapon, but no one would call it the acme of sabre development because it is really a mounted infantryman's sword, designed for maximum effect against men on foot or prone on the ground rather than other horsemen.

I started fencing at 14, back in the Stone Age when women fenced only with foils. Fortunately, I belonged to a club with many European members who thought that a silly restriction, and I had my first sabre lessons at 16 from an elderly Austrian professor with duelling scars all over his face.

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 06:22 PM

The 1913 saber was intended to be used as a "short lance" by a mounted horseman; the back edge was sharpened about a third of the way back from the point to allow for easier extraction from the person stuck. It could be used for cutting, but it was really designed more for sticking someone. Well balanced, though, and well thought out. Yes, the US supposedly took the best of the British and French sabers and came up with the 1913. BTW, Patton was Master of the Sword at Ft. Riley, Kansas at the time and actually had some input on the design but not as much as people usually think.

When my right arms heals up enough I'm going back to fencing saber -- I've got a Hutton model as well as...well....

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: EBarnacle
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 07:39 PM

Epee for mine. The artistry is the point.

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 07:51 PM

Yeah, Rap, that "D'Artagnan vs. Rochefort" video sets a new standard. Oy!!

I posted this on a previous fencing thread about four years ago, but it contains two stories that I got from an old book on the history of dueling.

The first duel—or duels—involved an actress named Antoinette de Maupin (if I remember her name correctly). The name has actually appeared in a couple of historical novels, and due to the incident I am about to describe, some regard her as a bit of a feminist icon, in her own somewhat smaller way, not unlike Boadica (or Boadicea) who killed a passel of Romans.

Mademoiselle de Maupin was attending a party, and a number of "gentlemen" began making rude and suggestive remarks about her. And to her. This was during an era when actresses were not regarded very highly. When none of the other "gentlemen" present rose to her defense, she blew her cool and called the mouthy ones out. It took a bit of tongue-lashing and an insult or two of her own before they caught on that she was serious, and realized that if they didn't respond to her challenge, not only was their honor on the line, but their manhood as well. So she borrowed a sword and they went out through the French doors into the garden.

They squared off, and she took them on one at a time. She fought about six bouts altogother and won them all. I don't recall how many of them she killed, but it was at least three and perhaps more. And she left those she didn't kill much the worse for the experience. Having "taken out the garbage," she handed the sword back to its owner with thanks and returned to the party. People tended to be very polite to her from then on.

It seems that one of her lovers had been a fencing master, and he had taught her the art of the sword. She proved to be quite an adept pupil.

####

Two men faced each other at ten paces, raised their pistols, and fired simultaneously. On this occasion at least, they were both crack-shots. They hit each other right between the eyes. And knocked each other cold!

They both awoke some hours later in separate beds, with splitting headaches and bruises on their faces that made them look like a pair of raccoons.

It seems that the two combatants were absolutely resolved to kill each other and would not be dissuaded by their seconds. So the seconds of both, having concluded that the argument was completely trivial and that these two twits had moved the dubious art of nincompoopery to an entirely new level, conspired a bit and loaded the two pistols with minuscule amounts of powder, assuming that neither ball would even make the full ten paces. But they did, and with sufficient impulse left over to deliver a chastising wallop to the two principles. It worked out even better than the seconds had anticipated. The two antagonists decided that honor (or something) had been satisfied, and decided to drop the matter.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Obit of Bob Anderson- swordmaster
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 09:30 PM

Not exactly a duel, but....

In August, 1917, in a town in SE Texas, a bad guy named Francisco Lopez got drunk and went around shooting out windows and lights, generally raising hell. The town marshal, named (I believe) Whitman, went out to stop the shooting. A crowd followed the marshal, who was a low-key kid of guy and who was more and more worried about someone in the crowd getting hurt by Lopez if there was shooting.

The marshal stopped around 15 feet from Lopez and told him to drop the gun, that he was under arrest. Lopez fired two shots at the marshal, missing with both but realizing the marshal's fears that bystanders would get hurt.

The marshal reluctantly drew and fired, so close to Lopez's firing that bystanders thought that they'd heard just one shot. Lopez grabbed his hand and dropped his gun like he'd been electrocuted. The marshal cuffed him and hauled him off to jail, not a mark on him.

Lopez's revolver was retrieved. No, the marshal did not shoot it out of his hand. No, he didn't shoot the cylinder out of the gun. Examination found that the marshal's bullet had entered the barrel of Lopez's gun BEFORE Lopez's third bullet could clear the barrel. This was shown to be the case when the gun was disassembled and the bulge in the barrel examined.

Probably the last of the old-time, rarely happening, Olde Weste gunfights. I wouldn't bet money on this happening again....