Help: Affordable Computers

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Duane D.
Date: 15 Nov 02 - 02:56 AM

Max, Let me know how the new E machines hold up. I find a lot of the old ones discarded here in northern Westchester Co., NY. These machines were typically sold through Tiger Direct and Comp USA and ran an AMD K6-2 380mhz processor. The motherboard seems to be the weakest part. Scavenging can have its rewards for the tinkerer, such as I. This past bulk trash season, which ended in October, netted me a 17" Sony Trinitron (crt) monitor in perfect working condition (which I currently use) and an original iMac model B 233mhz G3 complete, with only a loose connection in one of the harnesses. Also found some PII and AMD K6 and PI based computers (most partially stripped, but good for parts). I found a surplus computer parts dealer online and ordered a socket 370 motherboard for less than $50. I purchased a new Via C3 900 mhz processor and fan from Tiger Direct fo about $70. So for about $120, I was able to build my new computer, I already had the rest of the parts. Where as most motherboards typically have two IDE channels (for four IDE devices), this one also has, onboard, two RAID channels for a total of eight IDE devices. As currently completed, it has 256mb sdram, 40 gb hdd, 36x cdrom, 16x10x40x cdrw, and fdd. I'm mostly using it for archiving my music collection of field recordings and long out of print vinyl lps to cd with Roxio Platinum. When I'm able to find 5 identical cdrws at a good price, I'll buy a full tower case and repackage this computer with the 5 cdrws in place of the one I'm currently using. If all goes well I should able to do mass copying of my own original cds. I found a shareware program online called Feurio. It's a free download, full version, with no time limit. This s/w allows multiple copying from a single source or multiple copying jobs all running simultaneously. I haven't had the opportunity to try this s/w yet. There are a lot of cheap new and recertified computers out there, but I don't know how well they'll perform or last. They may not be the fastest, but some appear to be bargains.

Duane.

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 10:22 AM

SRS, Cygwin isn't a program to switch OSs, it provides POSIX API translation so all the GNU UNIX and Linux stuff can run directly on Windows. It means you can run all your UNIX-based programs without having to switch OSs.

Most people running UNIX or Linux also keep a Windows system about somewhere, either on a different machine or on the same machine using dual boot. For people who need both environments or those who just want Windows to be more powerful and useful, Cygwin is a great alternative.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 01:30 AM

I've heard about some of these programs that let you switch OSs without turning the computer off. I'll have to look into this one you suggest. Thanks! I think I can set Boot Magic to do this also. It means reading the book again to figure out how--but heck, when all else fails, read the directions!

SRS

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 01:00 AM

SRS, You might try copying the CAB files from ME to a temporary directory on 2K then using the CAB file as your source when you reinstall the peripheral. Just a thought.

I avoid the dual boot setup by using Cygwin along with Windows—either 98 or XP Pro. Cygwin gives me nearly everything I care about in Linux but it runs as a Windows process so I don't have to reboot. In fact I can be running UNIX X11 programs at the same time I'm running native Windows apps. Much more flexible.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 12:39 AM

Mark--You're with me in this, I can tell, but I've already tried that. Unless I have the entire program installed on the Win2000 side, I can't put in new drivers or "re"install it because it isn't already installed--being on the ME side is just as if it were in a different computer. I have tried to parse the programs out of those backup disks that HP sent, thinking that since I technically own this software I should be able to put it where I want in this computer, but there is no way. In a directory even like Windows Explorer they're gibberish (on purpose, I'm sure!).

I can go buy inexpensive programs for burning CD's or playing the DVD player from the Win2000 side, but I'd be better off just buying the new version of Roxio, for example, and installing it both places. Any time I'm in the computer store looking at these things and wondering if I should cough up $100, it seems silly. I save what I want to burn onto the D drive, and restart the computer and burn it from the ME side. It's a nuisance, but it's free. When I get to the point of working with my Dad's music, I have a partition set aside for music work, or might even add another hard drive. And I'll work from the ME side for that.

Dual platforms do have their applications, and on the whole I think this one works excellently. It does allow me to do what I planned--keep all of the functionality of the ME with it's gaming (the kids like that) and media tools, and have the strength of Win2000 for my word processing, editing, and in particular, Web Design work.

I have a friend who has a dual platform on his work computer with Linux and Windows, and he uses the Linux most of the time. I haven't tried that one yet, though the price is right!

SRS

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 03:15 PM

SRS, Get on the net and see if you can get new drivers for your problem peripherals. Often the manufacturer's site will post new drivers for download. If drivers aren't available from the manufacturer, use Google or another engine to search for drivers.

When (if) you find new drivers, download them but don't install them just yet. First uninstall the peripherals. To to this, right-click on My Computer and select Properties from the context menu. Select the Hardware tab then click the Device Manager button. Find the problem peripherals in the list, right-click on them and select Uninstall.

Now, before rebooting, intstall the new drivers from the manufacturer. Only after they've been installed should you reboot. In any case, don't let the Win 2K Plug-and-Play system reinstall the peripherals using the default Win 2K drivers. Force them to use the new drivers you've downloaded.

If your ME side is working okay, there's no real need to replace the drivers there.

Good luck,

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 10:43 AM

I just sent a message that seems to have vanished! My first computer was an Eagle (8088). Two floppy drives.

On the entire system I spent about $5000. Computer, letter-quality typewriter with a printer interface (I was a writer, couldn't see another reason for having a computer!).

SRS

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 10:41 AM

Ah, yes, my first computer, an Eagle 8088! It had two floppy drives (no hard drive yet at that time). I kept one of the old disks (very expensive at the time--I think $5 a piece!) just as a memento, but have nothing to play it on. Think of how far the approximate $5000 I sunk into that system (letter-quality typewriter as printer, interface connection, computer, etc.) could go today!

SRS

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 10:37 AM

Oh, there are clubs like that!...and I know a guy who has storage bins and houses FULL...as in FULL!!!..of antique and obsolete hardware! He gives stuff to the Smithsonian and has a few things that seem to quite rare.

He goes to meeting and shows much like folks go to antique auto shows or gun shows, where they compare their Altairs and such.. *shaking my head in wonder*....he also runs the most obscure operating systems he can find....but I doubt he has has ANYTHING running that could log on to the WWW and read Mudcat!...It is just a hobby, like restoring old steam engines.

(and yes...those 5¼" discs I have ARE probably bad by now...and I am due for a serious cleaning out of memoribilia soon!)

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 01:24 AM

Bill D - history is great, and you can never discount what can be done with the "old stuff."

Believe it or not, I still very frequently resort to DOS - for those things you "jist cain't do" in Windows. In fact though, I think I'm about due for a "DOS training session" to catch up.

Through several versions of Windows, the "embedded DOS" has been something of a mystery. You knew it was "a little different flavor" than the old "numbered versions" but it was pretty hard to get any details - so I've been just using the old stuff that I already knew - when it was convenient.

In WinXP, you're not supposed to call it DOS. It's "Command Mode" now, but the help files actually have some useful information - and it looks like there's some very potent stuff there. "New" - and documented (well, sort of) - commands I hadn't heard of, or had forgotten. I'm gonna hafta start over - someday.

I kept a couple of old machines running just for the 5.25 drives for quite a while, but with infrequent use I found it very difficult to keep them (the drives) clean enough to work reliably. I also found that old 5.25 disks die all by themselves, and a whole lot of the ones I was keeping "in case I ever needed them" were - for all practical purposes - blank disks. This was despite careful storage in reasonably controlled environs.

I wonder if we'll ever have clubs for people who restore antique computers like the do antique autos. We could all take them for drive on Sundays(?)...

John

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 01:17 AM

Mark Clark,

I haven't been online all day, sorry to answer your query so late.

My computer is an HP that came with ME and "recovery disks" with all of the pre-installed programs. The only way to put the programs on if the computer crashes (such as when SirCam hit) I have to reinstall everything on those three CD's, little choice about it. To get past the weakness of ME yet to keep the functionality for some hardware, I use a dual platform. I installed BootMagic and partitioned the hard drive. I left ME on part of it for running the devices and some software, and I started the new partition for Win 2000. I also created a "D" drive that both ME and Win2000 write to and work from (they both think they're "C" and can't see each other). I don't have the manufacturers' CDs, so I can't install those and write to the Win2000 registry. Some programs I have purchased and installed on both sides (the latest Norton firewall, for example).

Does it make more sense now? It is kind of like having two computers.

SRS

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 02 - 12:13 AM

on a hunch, I decided to read this thread too....interesting...I'm learning a lot, and discovering what a lot more there is to learn!

(and I still have a WIN 3.1 machine over to my left, still operating and able to read a 5¼" floppy ...my wife, an experienced DOS programmer, still keeps various lists and record there...I have 2 operating Syquest drives connected to it in SCSI mode and can run ICQ or Netscape 4)......

It's almost like have one foot in two different centuries!

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 10:35 PM

Guest -

You can check out the several threads where people have asked how to get "special characters" to get an idea of what the usefulness might be.

Earlier Windows - and programs under most other operating systems - are limited in the number of characters they can display. Windows, in particular, is "localized" so that the characters you can type - or otherwise enter easily - depend on where you bought your system. In France, you get a default character set with lots of "diacriticals." In Germany I suppose you get at least a bunch of umlauts.

There are shortcut keystrokes - different for each "localization" and methods for adding and using "alternate character pages" in current programs, and you can get specialized (remapped) fonts, but the available methods are cumbersome and somewhat limited.

The Unicode "character set(s)" are intended so that you should be able to give a "character number" (usually just by typing the character) for any character in any language, and whoever you give it to should be able to "see" the correct character. (There's the additional problem that quite a few languages don't write left-to-right, top-to-bottom - which should be accommodated.) In order to use Unicode, your machine must be able to recognize a "character number" that is two bytes long. Conventional older Windows systems can't do that. (There are qualifications to "can't do that," but it would be lengthy.)

A fairly recent thread on "how to type a euro" illustrates the problem somewhat. Quite a few "right" answers don't work on my machine, because they're only "right" for those who bought their machines and software in Europe. What is "right" on my machine doesn't necessarily work for them. We should all be able to do the same thing to get the same character, but that's not the way it is now.

The question is a little "academic" until the ability to use DBCS catches up some. For now, the important(?) thing is to be aware that it (maybe) is coming. IF you plan new stuff, you may want to consider whether its worthwhile to get a system that will allow you to do some of this if, and when, the new character capability "gets here." On the other hand, you might guess that you'll wear out your next system before you this stuff is actually "ready for market," or that you'll just never need it. We've been waiting quite a while now.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 09:39 PM

Would the average computer user have any need for 'DOUBLE-BYTE CHARACTER SETS'?

I don't even know what it means

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 09:02 PM

In a fit of passionate prose, I accidentally forgot which thread I was in, and posted a rather lengthy comment in BS: Non-ASCII Character Wanted that's probably even more applicable here.

I won't repeat the whole posting, but the punchline was:

People considering "keeping up" with things, may want to plan on an operating system (as well as hardware) upgrade sometime in the future, because:

WINDOWS 2OOO PROFESSIONAL (OR BETTER) AND WINDOWS XP PROFESSIONAL (OR BETTER) ARE THE ONLY EXISTING MICROSOFT OPERATING SYSTEMS CAPABLE OF FULLY "HANDLING" DOUBLE-BYTE CHARACTER SETS.

The "or better" above is to include "Server" and "Enterprise" versions of those two operating systems.

Double-byte character sets means full Unicode.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: CraigS
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 08:12 PM

Re: Very old disused computers;

Almost any old computer can be linked into a Windows installation using the MSDOS Interlink utility. Link it serial-to-serial and you have access to all the ports and drives it can support. Boot it first as Interserver, then the main computer. The Windows system will display the drives as demountable drives. That old computer can be used as a print server - gives you an extra parallel port, and lets the printing download into the "slave" computer memory. Gives you the potential to add drives, as long as the bios + drivers will support them.

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 02:28 PM

Note to Ed (and anyone else interested in Word "tricks")

The example uses the "eq field," which is something I found out of necessity way back in Word 5.0 for DOS. For it and for several intervening versions, the capability was there but it was very difficult to find the help file info on them. If anyone is still using anything earlier than Word97, the quickest way to useful information is (according to my recollection) to insert a field (Control-F9), type eq between the brackets, and then hit F1 (for "context sensitive help").

You can also insert a field using the Edit - Insert - Field, although it may not be listed if you've chosen "short lists" for you toolbar.

With Word97 and later, you should be able to go to Help and look for "Fields" in either the Index or Search functions.

The "eq" field used to be the "equation" field. You still put "eq" in the brackets, but it's now named "formula" field. This is probably the most powerful way to control layout of "details" in Word.

The other good one to know about is the "calculate" field, for which you just put a "=" in front of an equation.

A caution: If you accidentally "double-click" inside a field, Word will transfer you to the "Equation Editor," which is their "toy for dummies" (not meant as an insult to anyone who uses it) which completely obliterates your ability to acutally control what you are doing in the field Don't disable it (as I do) until you decide that you like the more specific control you get by using the fields directly. Just don't double-click inside a field.

A separate thread drift - in Tools Options you can set up Word so it pretty much looks, and works like Word Perfect. There is also a section in Word97 (and later) "Help" on "Help for Word Perfect Users."

John

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 01:35 PM

Jon -

It's not a big deal on the "rounding" since - based on past experience - I put in a column for "adjustment to principal" and one for "adjustment to escrow." About every 7 or 8 months I seem to add a penny, and then take it back off about 2 months later.

It's quite obvious that their calculation "carries" fractional cents that don't print on the statements. When they "report" .04 as the "current balance" they may actually carry over and use .03925... as the starting point of their next months calculation. The key to "absolute accuracy" would be to know how many significant figures they carry. If it mattered, I could run trial balances to "discover" their computer resolution, but it's not a priority. I've found that the last people likely to be able to "just tell me" would be anyone in an accounting department - "It's magic, the computer does it."

The only reason for "calculating" my record of the mortgage in my own spreadsheet is that in Excel it's very easy to do, and I've had experience with mortgage companies that did make a whole lot of rather large "errors." I'm reasonably confident, by now, that my current company is at least "commercial grade honest," which was my original concern when I set up the sheet.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 08:43 AM

Opps, I of course meant 11.5 rounds up to 12.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 08:42 AM

John, I don't know if this helps (and I don't think I'd be loosing any seelp over 1c) but there are 2 systems of rounding that I'm aware of:

The standard one where if you were to round to the nearest whole number, .5 and upwards round up and the rest round down.

Bankers rounding: This differs in its handling of .5 (or whatever decimal places you are working to). The rule is you round to the nearest even number, e.g 10.5 rounds down to 10 but 11.5 rounds up to 11, etc.

The argument for bankers rounding is that in standard rounding, there are 4 values (0.1-0.4) that round down and 5 values (0.5-0.9) that round up. Taking this action with 0.5 evens this out.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 06:35 AM

Having read through all of the above threads I am of the same opinion as Jon Freeman, there is a vast difference in all UK prices when compared with the US.
He is correct when he states that prices in Dollars are quoted the same in Sterling, and yes, the rip-off merchants in the UK also add to the price. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 05:02 AM

Interesting stuff, John

Don't get me wrong, Word is my WP of choice, but I'm part of the 95% of users who only use 5% of the program's capabilites.

You've piqued my interest though. and I'll investigate 'switches' Most people won't because it looks too difficult

Ed

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 04:58 AM

Ed -

It occurs to me that the 26 keystrokes in the original "fun example" above is exactly equal to the difficulty of typing the html code to display:

<<&&>>

which I'm sure you've mastered with little difficulty.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 04:49 AM

Ed -

Very user friendly, if you break it down.

Ctl-F9 inserts a field.
eq names an "equation field" which can use a whole bunch of different "switches"
\x is a switch that says "put a box around whats in the parentheses that follow"
\a is a switch that says "make an array of what's in the next parentheses"
\f is a switch that says "make a fraction of what's in the next parentheses."
1 is the numerator, and 2 the denominator of the fraction, separated by a comma
The whole \f(1,2) is the top row of the array - defaulted to a 2x1 since I didn't add any rows/columns specification.
\x(99) is the lower row of the array,
but the \x switch says "put a box around the 99"

If you learn the switches one at a time, they are easy, fast, and very precise in what they do.

I could have given the example {eq \x(A)} - which is a quick 9 keystrokes, to show the letter A inside a box; but it's so much fun I couldn't resist showing off a little. It's certainly no more difficult than selecting a box in your spreadsheet, formatting it to a desired size (row height and column width), and then applying a border format. It's still a box.

For an alternative, do the Ctl-F9, and type an "=" followed by an equation of your choice, and then hit F9.
{=29*14/33} turns into 12.3
For more precision {=29*14/33 \#0.0000} turns into 12.3030. (the \#0.0000 tells it to show four decimal places)
For variety {=29*14/33\*HEX} turns into "C" - the hexadecimal integer equivalent of 12.3

It's so quick and easy I almost never use a calculator if I have Word open. But you have to learn how to drive it.

And how would you do the same layout in the wp of your choice???

John

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Ed.
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 04:19 AM

Type "eq \x(\a(\f(1,2),\x(99)))"

Not exactly 'user friendly' John! *grin*

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Nov 02 - 04:05 AM

Any program that does the job you want to do is a good program, and most of the current "office grade" software is versatile enough - if you learn how to use it - to do things you wouldn't expect.

On the other hand, I'd agree that Excel (or other spreadsheet) is the logical place to do "calendar work." The date functions in Excel are immensely powerful and flexible, although I still can't (through laziness) get my banking spreadsheet to always come up for the right date for the nth Xday of the month when my pension check is supposed to be deposited. On the other hand, my version of my mortgage account hasn't disagreed with the bank by more than 1¢ in over 3 years. (I don't know how they do their round-offs - yet.)

Not too long ago I was told by the "Office Expert" at a former employment that I would need to use Power Point (or something else) because "Word isn't very good at long documents - over 15 pages or so." At present I have at least 6 Word documents on my machine that are over 700 pages and 30MB each, and I haven't noticed things slowing down much. My recent workover of a local session book - just over 800 tunes at roughly 2 per page - topped 50MB, flawlessly. But you do have to learn how to work with it.

In Word, if you hit Control-F9 you should get a pair of "braces" { } with the cursor between them. Type "eq \x(\a(\f(1,2),\x(99)))" without the quotes and with the cursor still between the braces hit F9 again. Not much use for calendars, but - boxes, nonetheless.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 07:53 PM

Not a Powerpoint (presenation graphics) user but a Spreadsheet is to me a useful tool. The last use I put Excel to was making as calender for as church cleaning schedule for Pip.

The attractions to me with Excel rather than another type of program (eg Word) were

a) That producing reasonable output is so easy, Excel works well for making boxes round cells.

b)With the built in date calculations it was relatively easy to calculate dates the way we wanted. In this case, we work on a 3 * 3 grid with months as headers and list the Sundays in that month below with allowance for 4/5 week months. All Pip has to do is enter a start date and the calender is produced - a lot simpler than having to get the dates from an other source.

The solution does not move people responsible up the the list but, still it saves a lot of works and was (well if I hadn't had problems over a crash elsewhere) easily solved or part solved. It also proved easy to make a second protected copy which mirrored the first to enable printing 2 rotas in one A4 landscape page.

I also se a spreadheet for similar purposes to Ed and it's "What if" abilities are useful.

Reasons for using any software vary and I believe there have been report writing vs book writing debates and the relatave strengths of WP and Word here before. For me, the spreadsheet, at least in some cases can be a solution where one wolud perhaps natuarly think "Word Processed Docment".

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 07:19 PM

"too polite to complain"?

People complain non stop. Just not very effectively.

Maybe it's that complaining is quite enjoyable, so that people avoid doing it in a way that risks improving things; because then we have to find sonething else to complain about.

Or perhaps it's just that they hate disappointment, so avoid doing anything that might invite it.

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Pushkin
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 07:05 PM

It's not just computers prices that are changed directly from dollars to pound, we in the uk are subjected to this in everything from jeans, cd's, trading cards, dvd's, to the lowley hamburger.

Unfortunatly we as a nation are too polite to complain ( well not to loudly, as we mightbe heard :-)

This is from Pushkins other half and not attributed in any way, form, or other thing to "She" who must be obayed.

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Ed.
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 05:12 PM

Toadfrog,

John is talking a lot of sense.

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that you haven't given Word a decent chance.

I understand the frustration, and thinking a program is crap because it doesn't work the way that you're used to, but give it a little time and effort and you may change your mind.

To suggest that only 'big business' users need a spreadsheet is plain wrong. I use Excel as a home product to calculate my (lack of) money, and find it a very useful tool. I also use powerpoint to email jokes to friends.

Ed

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 04:50 PM

toadfrog -

I actually use Word97 on my Win98 machine - which is the machine I use most. I'll agree that, if you accept the default settings, it can look pretty miserable.

Every time you "upgrade," you have to turn off all the new trash to get a program you can work with - the way you want to work. (Tools - Options, and "uncheck" almost everything, usually, although with Word97 and later you may also have to disable some "wizards" and shut off some "autocorrect" functions.) I've run into quite a few people who like WP, mainly those who were "trained" on earlier versions. I don't have a problem with that - it's a good program, from all that I've heard. I haven't used it for several years, so I can't really comment on current versions - except to say that the professional word-smiths with whom I deal all hate it once they've learned to use Word. It's apparently a personal thing.

While I do have a LAN set up, and for that reason can't use the "Home" version operating system, my real distaste for the "toy" software comes from less experienced people who "just want to write a letter," or "keep track of their CD inventory," or other fairly simple stuff - that they can't do easily with the "Home" versions.

Maybe I'm the bad influence - because they never seem to think of these things to do until they see that I do them routinely.

SRS - The recommendation I intended was that - if you are getting a new machine, you should look at the one with the best pre-installed software. If you really want to improve things, you need to consider current versions of your "core" software, and it makes little sense to me to spend $600 for a "bargain" machine and $1200 for new software, if you can get the whole deal set up and running for anything less than $1800.

Win2K is a very good operating system, but it is too complex (in my opinion) for most of the people that I deal with to set up as a replacement system and get all the best features working. I'm not sure I'd want to try it for my own use - but that's academic as the only machines I have that could run it already have Win2K or XP Pro (pre-installed).

Even Micro$oft admits that there are no Win2K drivers available for some older hardware, although the situation seems to be improving. Drivers for peripherals come from the maker of the devices - not from Microsoft. That applies even to the drivers included on Mickey'$ installation disks - the peripheral manufacturer supplied them to Mickey to pass on to you. Since Win2K was intended as an "industrial strength" operating system, quite a few "consumer" device makers "didn't bother" to write drivers for their equipment.

The situation is considerably better for XP, since it's a "crossover" system for home and office users (cross-dresser may be a better term for the "Home" in XP disquise). Most peripheral builders have made XP compatible drivers - although you may still find old stuff that quits on you.

With package prices where they are now, I've found it more "rational" to get the new system with the software AND accessories I need, and divert the old one to one of those "backup" tasks (like letting houseguests play FreeCell, or running her 1200 horsepower Bernina stitcher).

No single "solution" works for everyone. The opening posts in this thread mentioned attractively priced hardware for the 'cat server. You can't get server software "packaged" by any discounters I've heard of - and I'm pretty sure Max is not going to be influenced by anything I've said, because he was apparently (3 years ago) "dead-on" for what met his our need.

Your mileage may vary similarly.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: toadfrog
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 02:12 PM

John in Kansas: Thanks for the information.
w.r.t. Microsoft Works, my experience was with Microsoft Word was with Word 97, the expensive box, which I installed on my computer. It is realy inferior to Word Perfect 8 and was designed by a control freak. I now have Windows XP, which comes with a versopm Word. I agree with your statement that this "Word" lacks many features and can fairly be called a toy.

People have different needs. I suspect that a person needing a computer with networking capacity, spreadsheet and presentation applications would not be asking for advice on Mudcat; they would talk to a consultant. But of course, I could be wrong.

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 02:03 PM

You might try Tiger Computer at TigerDirect.com. They sell kits and components at good prices. They don't necessarily have the top of the moment parts but their stuff is good, name brand and generally reliable.

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Mark Clark
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 01:49 PM

SRS, I'm puzzled by your problem with the drivers. It almost sounds as though you upgraded your Windows ME system to Win 2K on the same computer; is that right? Or did you buy a new computer with Win 2K already installed and then move your old peripherals to the new system?

The first case—update in place—is a really bad idea for most people. Even very experienced and certified administrators will shy away from that one. The second case shouldn't have given you any trouble if you installed the drivers from the manufacturer's CD before moving the peripherals.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 12:45 PM

John,

Trouble with buying pre-installed software in a new computer--upgrading to a better operating system frequently eliminates access to the software. My dilemma, becase the old Windows ME (remember that stinker?) was so guttless, kept crashing all of the time, etc., was that in switching to Windows 2000 Professional it wouldn't recognize my software to run the CD burner or to play DVD's on that drive (though it will read CD's). I put in a dual platform to keep the stuff that operates my drives and I do my burning of CD's and viewing of DVD's over on ME. The rest of the time (and where the default is set) is spent on the NT (Win2000) side. But as you say, buying the individual programs, even at the academic rate that I get through my university employer, gets expensive.

I'm thinking about building a computer for the kids. Has anyone done that lately? I have a Fry's Electronics nearby, with all of the cases and motherboards and drives you could possibly want. The other option is to buy a package HP (I have one already and like it) at CompUSA or at Sam's. Any thoughts? (By the way--you can take an unopened system with the receipt from wherever you bought it into CompUSA and they will sell you an extended service agreement. I have used mine, and find it one of the few "extended warranty" packages I am willing to purchase.

SRS

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Nov 02 - 11:45 AM

toadfrog -

In partial answer to your query about "ordinary persons needing Office:"

The people I know who have the toy "Works" have frequently asked for help with word processing, only to find that the Word features that would do what they want are NOT in the "Works" word processor. If you restored the 80 percent (my guess) of features that are "left out" of the Works word processor (Which is NOT Word, in any sense of the word name) you might find that it's more competitive with the WP that you've compared it to.

The limitations with the "spreadsheet" included with "Works" are even more of a bother. With the real Excel, there are a number of "plug-in" functions that most of the time you don't even need to load - but they are there in Excel if you find that you need them; and they are not available in the Works "toy" spreadsheet. I don't use Excel for very many things, but even I have several of the Add-in Toolpacks installed, because they do - and are required in order to do - simple but convenient spreadsheet operations.

As you mentioned, the "Home" version lacks all networking functions. This may not be a problem for many people, but I've encountered a couple within my own limited group who have been unpleasantly surprised that those network functions are needed - and can't be added - to do things that they found a need for.

I haven't encountered the problem, but reasonably reliable reports are that the XP-Home op system has significantly "less robust" Plug-And-Play. The Pro versions of XP can easily resolve most IRQ/DMA conflicts, and can operate quite nicely with multiple shared IRQs. I'm told that XP-Home is "much more limited" in this area.

There is also a significant difference in how the "system registration" deal works with XP-Home and XP-Pro. With XP-Home, you may have to log on to "reinstate" your registration if you make a significant number of software additions. You almost certainly will have to re-register if you make any significant hardware changes. With XP-Pro, there is still the possibility that you'll do something that looks like you've "changed ownership," but so far as I've seen the "tolerance" is so wide that you're unlikely to encounter the need. (That's unless you're one of those who just can't resist perpetually "rebuilding" things.)

There are probably people who should use the "Home" version. I don't know anyone I'd recommend it to; but I do know several who wish they hadn't settled for it.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 06:16 PM

Ed

If you're happy with Win98, there's no good reason to jump to XP. I assume you have 98SE. The "handwriting's on the wall" though, that Win98 will fairly soon move to being "unsupported," since it is beginning to show its age.

If you're considering a new machine, you should probably get it with WinXP Pro. (Win98SE is better than WinXP Home, in terms of performance and availability of security/performance upgrades - IMHO and in the opinion of quite a few of the "experts").

Re the 20MB HD, that should, of course have been 20GB - 40GB recommended. My assumption is that anyone getting a new machine would probably be in the mood to upgrade to a "standard" working suite, including a decent Wordprocessor and Spreadsheet. Current versions of many of "today's standard" stuff use a whole lot of drive space. My Win98SE \Windows directory shows about 530MB used, of course including quite a bit of "program" stuff since its pushing 10 years old. My WinXP-Pro machine, with few added programs, shows \Windows at 1.1GB. The XP, which is a portable so new I haven't added much to it, shows only 27GB left of the 40GB HD - half used up just for the op system, basic programs, and the few records I took on a recent outing.

The wife's 3 year old Win2K machine has "only" a 20GB hard drive, and it's getting very crowded.

Actually, for my "next machine" I will probably go for something in the 80GB - 120GB, just for "breathing room." I've already added secondaries to the limit of the IDE ports installed (and the IRQ/DMAs available for practical use) on both the Win98 and Win2K machines.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: toadfrog
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 06:09 PM

John in Kansas: I'm not an expert, but note that your advice runs counter to everything I have heard, which is that XP Professional adds nothing whatsoever unless you are actually in an office and the computers are linked. In what ways is XP Professional better?

I don't use a full suite of applications; basically my job requires a word processor and very occasionally a data base. So far as I know, unless you are in a very serious business for yourself, you don't need Presentations software or a spreadsheet application.

For word processors, I've worked for several years both with Word Perfect and with Microsoft Word. My experience has been Word Perfect is approximately 120% better than Word, in every respect. Fewer giltches, fewer annoying failures, say, to let you type a full page of information on a page, less interference and fewer "Wizards" dedicated to forcing you to do everything in the stupidest possible way.   And for people using the computer for ordinary everyday use, Microsoft Works seems perfectly workable and a lot easier to learn than anybody's "Suite." Why should any private individual have XP Professional or Microsoft office on their machine anyway?

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Ed.
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 05:15 PM

Thread drift.

Is there any good reason to go to XP?

I've not found a thing that won't run on 98. And I understand 98 pretty well now.

Ed

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 04:28 PM

It has changed - You get a lot more for yor money now and I think building your own/ upgrading has become less attractive than it was then. On top of what Mark Clark has said, if you have an older PC you would probably be looking at a new motherboard to take a newer processor, yor old memory may well be useless as it's the wrong type for the new motherboard and you may need a higher wattage power supply.

I think it was last year when I compared the cost of buying a PC to building a similar spec by purchasing components from the same company. It would have cost more in components than the ready made machine.

I ordered the replacement for the last component in the P133 I mentioned today - the monitor expired. As it turned out, I upgraded it not long after replying to this thread. The right deal came my way and I fitted some bits - it became an AMD K2 500 for around £200 - a lot cheaper than I could have bought something similar for at the time. If it hadn't been for a violent storm which zapped a number of computers round here, including mine, I'd probably still be running it but when repairing the damage, I upgraded again - Athlone 1Ghz now.

Re software, XP and thier anti piracy policy (as far as I understand it certain repairs or upgrades would need a phonecall to MS to try to persuade them you were not trying to install on another machine...) became the point where I decided no new MS products.

I don't think Linux is quite "there" yet for the majority of home users but it will get there in time and there is some fantastic FREE software around.

One worry I heard about regarding free software was mentioned in the abc list - something called DRM. I do not know the facts but it was suggested that a more cynical reason for the mechanism as proposed is to make running free open source software more difficult. It seemed to be felt that some of the big boys are scared that in some cases, this type of software outperfoms the commercial stuff.

Jon

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 04:03 PM

Still can't beat Gateway and Dell for quality-price. Max's advice still holds.

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Ed.
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 03:54 PM

20MB Hard Dive, John? *grin*

Buy second hand (used) is my best advise. Unless you're into high end video editing or gaming, you really don't need the latest spec.

I'm still running a P133 with 32Meg of RAM, it works fine for web browsing, office tasks, mp3s etc

You can get some fabulous bargains second hand. I just found a P3 550 with 256MB RAM and big HD for £200.

Ed

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 03:40 PM

McGrath, go the the clicky Max posted for CNet. There is a pretty good machine there for $39.99. I was unable to purchase it but I wish I could.

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 03:33 PM

This book is pretty good - including especially helping decide whether some upgrade is worth it - The Complete Idiot's Guide to Upgrading and Repairing PCs, Fifth Edition
Author: Fulton, Jennifer.

Upgrading doesn't have to mean upgrading everything - sticking extra memory or a CD-writer in a machine, for example, can be very cost effective. For example I spend £30 on extrra memory recently, and now my PC crashes and freezes up a lot less often - and you can't get a new PC for £30, so far anyway.

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 03:30 PM

I have just spent the last hour being frustrated in an attempt to buy a machine on CNet. The listing is as of today and I really do need to buy/upgrade because my home hard drive is getting ready to die. Looked at the ValueNet site. They seem to have some good stuff but most of the stuff seems to be Celeron. I'm gonna have to make a move soon.

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: sed
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 03:19 PM

I have bunches of old computers which work well with DOS but are not able to handle windows very well. Anyone need one? They are located near me near the border of AL/GA... Steve Sedberry

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 03:14 PM

For those who can get by with it, it is commendable that some are willing to keep the old stuff running.

For those looking at new machinery, I'd offer my own observation that:

1. There's little to differentiate between the machines offered by the many sellers out there.

2. The software is much more critical than the machinery, and getting a machine with included and preinstalled software is a whole lot cheaper than buying software for a "bargain" machine, if you're interested in doing "normal" computer stuff.

3. Fully functional current software does not run well on machines commonly offered as "bargains." There is a very large difference between what you need/needed to run older software and what you need now - and will need to live through an upgrade or two - if you're looking at a new machine.

Microsoft has recently moved Windows 95 to "unsupported" status. This means that fixes and data sheets currently available will remain in their support system, but they will generate no new fixes to support Win95.

Win98SE - with current free upgrades - can do about anything you're likely to need now, but is apparently no longer sold by Microsoft. This means that it is likely to move to "unsupported" status within a few months (or very few years). Win98 security support has already been turned over to an "offsite support" location.

The most commonly offered software package, WindowsXP Home and Office Home, are "twinky toys." These are not "full function" software. I have a couple of friends who've bought them, and I've just about reached the point of being rude when they ask for help - because these software sets simply are not capable of doing "what everybody else can do," and I'm running out of ways to explain that to them.

If you really want to spend the time and effort to "roll your own" system, then you probably don't need my advice.

There really isn't a trouble-free "turn on and run" system, but the closest you can get is Windows XP Professional or Windows 2000 Professional, with Office Professional for working tools.

Because these - and other stuff you'll want later - are large programs, the minimum acceptable hard drive is, perhaps 20MB, and I'd recommend a minimum of 40MB. The ABSOLUTE MINIMUM RAM you should buy into in a new machine is probably 256MB now. (And if you can, make sure there's a free slot to double it later.)

You must have a CD-ROM, since that's the only way you can install current software. There's no good reason not to replace the CD-ROM with a CD-R/W, unless you may want to copy CDs - in which case it's convenient to have separate read and record drives. You can get by with one CD-R/W, but if you plan to do that - kick the Hard Drive up in size (at least to the 40MB), since you'll need to copy to free space there to burn from. (You could consider a DVD drive as a replacement for the separate CD-ROM, if you make sure that the one you get reads data CDs reliably - a few don't.)

If you don't get an installation CD for BOTH the Operating System AND the main program suite, then you're being cheated and you're probably dealing with a thief. (Some people find this acceptable.) Put these in a safe place, even if you have to rip up a floor board and seal them in wax.

Summary: Get the system with the best sofware package.

Note: No software with the word "HOME" in it's name is worth buying.

John

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Mark Clark
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 02:38 PM

Sharyn, if you click on my PriceWatch.com link above and then on the Apple PC link under systems you'll find a lot of prices on Macs including a refurbished G4 for under $1000 USD.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: GUEST,Mac Tattie
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 02:32 PM

Having just upgraded I can fully recomend anyone in the UK to try WWW.aria.co.uk. Good spec. and BEST price. cheers

Subject: RE: Help: Affordable Computers
From: Amos
Date: 07 Nov 02 - 02:24 PM

Sharon:

Two choices depending on how cheap you need to go.

1. Scour your used computer ads for a used G3 or G4 machine, preferably running OS 9.1 or later. There are lots of them out there.
Or run a "Wanted" ad. Even a Class I-Mac (the Bondi BLue kind) would out perform the machine you have.

2. Get one of the new I-Macs with the floating flat screen -- they are beuatiful to look at, not very expensive (compared to the desktop models) and will run circles around what you have now and what most of your peers have.

There's an Apple store near you and you can find it by going to mac.com, I believe.

A