Wanted: not a piano

Subject: Wanted: not a piano
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 07:37 PM

The instruments I currently own & can play are:
flute, recorder, various whistles
zither (two-octave, diatonic)
melodica
drums

I've been saving up for a concertina for a while, so that's probably going to be the next instrument I attempt. But what I'm really missing is something that would play notes - preferably more than one at a time - with a percussive attack & decay, rather than sustained notes a la melodica (or concertina).

Basically I want a piano - BUT
(a) I've got nowhere to put an upright, even if I could get one cheap and in good condition
(b) I don't want an electronic instrument (all my instruments produce sound by hitting and blowing, & I'd like to keep it that way)

Is there such a thing as a percussive acoustic keyboard instrument, that's not a piano?

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Mar 12 - 07:43 PM

Harp, hammer dulcimer, Northumbrian pipes?

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Ole Juul
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:01 AM

What you describe is a clavichord.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: John P
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:07 AM

Clavichord, clavicytherium, virginal, celesta. The one clavichord I've played was very quiet. The celesta doesn't have strings -- the hammers strike tuned pieces of metal. Sort of like a music box with more range and a keyboard.

There's also a type of hammered dulcimer called the "piano dulcimer" because the notes are linear and in the same pattern as the black and white keys on a keyboard.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 03:53 AM

None of which come cheap. The only truly cheap instrument that fits the remit is a Chinese (or Toy) Piano.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pmyq-nLBT8k

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 04:09 AM

After further research it seems Schoenhut are the makers of choice in this respect with an intriguing range of models from uprights to grands:

http://www.mytoypianos.com/

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 06:04 AM

Clavichords are indeed very quiet - I've got one. On the other hand it can be played without disturbing the person in the next room, if that's an issue.

London Piano Auctions have them, used, quite regularly. A repro instrument made by Morley, who is out of favour with early music buffs just now as he didn't copy a specific model is quite reasonable when compared with say, a set of Northumbrian pipes. You'd need to be prepared for tuning work though (I do it myself, by ear.).

Paws

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 06:06 AM

Phil, you shouldn't be so down on electronic keyboards. I bought a Korg N1 keyboard for around £1,000 about 12 years ago - stage quality and superb sounds. It has 88, weighted keys, so touch is important, and I also have a sustain pedal. innumerable piano sounds, from classical concert to honky-tonk. You can amplify the sound with low-cost JBL speakers, or play with earphones, or record directly into digital recorder or computer.

It also has an amazing set of sound banks which, if you're in experimental mode, are quite stimulating - it also has a wide array of orchestral and other instruments which, believe me, are very realistic. You can see it in action here:

Diamond Ring Blues

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 06:16 AM

By the way, Phil, I have a cheap-ish anglo concertina you can borrow if you want to try before you buy. Good instruments are quite expensive. Cheap instruments are not as good but, at least, you can get a feel for the thing - if you don't get on with it, then you haven't invested a lot of cash.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:09 AM

Somehow I can't see a piano or clavicord fitting into Pip's particular brand of naive folk brut, or fitting in with his chosen timbres of zither, melodica, recorders & suchlike inexpensive 'little instruments', which need something equally little & inexpensive to resonate with, especially in the multi-track dialoging which is a feature of Mr Radish's work. I can, however, imagine the iconic tonalities of the Toy Piano working perfectly in such a context, whereas even the Anglo Concertina might come too laden with other agendas / associations. That said, Peter Bellamy's approach to the instrument was certainly naive and brutish, but could you get away with that in these more musically sophicticated times? It's like hurdy-gurdies, which back in the day howled like the Gadarene Swine on early LPs by Malicorne etc. are now uniform, slickly engineered instruments of enforced musical preictability - Rene Zosso notwithstanding of course.

Guitars & pianos (even clavicords) don't really engender the essential naive / brut vibe; the fiddle of course is ideal, though I fear there are far too many violins in folk these days, not enough fiddles. And those cheap 8-bass £35 accordions are ideal I'd say - in essense, melodicas with drones & bellows. Talking of which, I noticed yesterday you can buy really cheap bellows in Clas Olsen in MCR which I'm sure could come in handy for something other than puffing up the Spring BBQ.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Will Fly
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 07:36 AM

Ah well, I mentioned the Anglo simply because Pip said it might well be his next instrument.

I have to say, in a mild defence of the Korg, that I've spent many a happy hour idling through its multifarious sounds and putting together weird and wonderful combinations of sounds and instruments that intrigued me - even recorded some of them.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 08:36 AM

Dulcetone.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: EBarnacle
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 10:33 AM

That said, there are a couple of clavichords available on eBay.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 11:15 AM

Thanks all.

Suibhne - you're right about the folk brut stuff, although when I start layering different sounds I only have the vaguest idea of where I want to get to; I know when a track's finished, although by that stage I usually think I've buggered it up totally. Toy piano is an interesting idea - that John Cage piece is terrific. The instrument was used to great effect by Zach Condon of Beirut on this track.

Dulcitones (and similar) and clavichords (and similar) both sound wonderful, but unfortunately they aren't answers to the question "what's smaller and cheaper than an old upright piano?". (Smaller, maybe.) And, thinking about it now, the sound I'm really feeling the lack of is bassy & loudish - think of Box 25/4 Lid or the end of A last straw. Possibly I need to go a different route. (I know I started out by talking about keyboards, but now I think of it they aren't the only way to produce notes - preferably more than one at a time - with a percussive attack & decay...)

Will - thanks, it's a very generous offer. I won't take you up on it, though, as it's an English box I've got my eye on. I've played around with a melodeon & found the push/pull system incredibly frustrating - when I play a note I like it to stay put!

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Bettynh
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:03 PM

How about a mountain dulcimer?

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:50 PM

I'll never be able to afford one, but would love to try a Bass Psaltery made by a rare few American instrument makers.
Definite scope for plucking notes and hitting strings with a metal or wood [etc] striker.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 12:58 PM

having said that, I've just checked again for the first time in a few years...

and found a relatively affordable budget priced one at "Elderly Instruments"

http://elderly.com/new_instruments/items/GP200.htm

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 01:05 PM

Those Box / Straw notes don't come cheap (though 50% of Box is Hopper debuting what would become his signature fuzz bass by Volume 2) - although they are very cheap once you get into the realm of soft synths, sampling & controllers. For example, I still might use a vintage (2004?) Oxygen 8 controlling keyboard, hardly any bigger than a melodica, hooked through basic sound modules & Ableton Live. On ebay you can pick such stuff up for pennys & could easily augment your corporeal instruments with virtual ones without harming the integrity of your overall concept. On the contrary, because once you start using multi-tracking as an instrument in its right, you're in between worlds anyway, so interfacing with the virtual realm is the natural thing to do. And it's the only way you're going those timbres without shelling out big bucks for pianos and decent microphones.

For example, here's a very old piece from my requiem for Blyth Power Station (2003) featuring only 2 instruments - my ukulele and pocket trumpet - which are field recorded (on location) & 'altered' back in the studio using a very lite version of Ableton I was using at the time plus the old OhmyGod soft filter that used to come free with Computer Music (actually Computer Music is still a good place to start for free software). I still love this.

http://www.sedayne.co.uk/sounds/requiemedit.mp3

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: olddude
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 01:09 PM

Well all I got is guitars and ahem . ahhhh yes the dreaded banjo
that I still can't play that well
but I love it

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:18 PM

i agree with Will Fly. Go to a music dealer while you still can and try the electronic keyboards. You might be pleasantly surprised.

See if you can rent one. You could try it and find that you don't even like playing a keyboard.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 18 Mar 12 - 02:25 PM

The only way to go is Soft!

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:22 AM

Quit being so cheap!!...Get a bigger place, and put a piano in it...you'll NEVER regret it!!!...by the way, a good synth is a good investment, as well.....fuck the 'purist' bullshit....make music ANYWAY you can...using whatever instrument that will make it happen!!

GfS

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 04:41 AM

I'm not a purist, I'm just doing something I enjoy - and one of the things I'm enjoying at the moment is struggling to get the sounds I want out of some fairly simple and limited instruments (and some recording software).

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 05:16 AM

Phil Edwards: "I'm not a purist,..."

Good!..because you can ALWAYS spot a 'purist', they're ALWAYS out of tune!

So, you don't like pianos, or synths?....They have some really nice sounds!....

GfS

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 10:05 AM

How about this?

From Scratch with PVC drainpipes

It's probably bulkier than a piano, but a lot lighter and easier to store.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Bernard
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 11:29 AM

If you can find one (sorry, you can't have mine!), a Hohner Pianet T, dating back to the 1970s, would probably suit you.

It's unusual in the way the notes are produced - there is a set of metal reed-like flat springs which produce the notes, and the sound is produced by means of a rubber sucker attached to each key. At rest, the sucker is attached to the 'reed', but when you press a key the sucker lets go of the 'reed' and it sounds a note. It's quite piano-like in timbre, and there are passive electromagnetic pickups similar in principle to a guitar pickup that can be used to amplify the sound.

Mine is a work in progress - some of the 'reeds' have rust on them, so it isn't quite in tune, but the suckers seem to have survived okay.

I'd say it was a little louder than a clavichord without any amplification, but there are no fancy electronics to mess you up!

A problem with clavichords that people tend to overlook is the fact that one string may be used to produce more than one note (fretting) - so they aren't always as polyphonic as you might expect. If a clavichord is described as 'unfretted', it has one string per note.

A clavichord produces its note by means of a 'tangent' on the end of each key striking the string and defining its sounding length - the distance between the bridge and the tangent. It also allows the player to produce a small amount of vibrato, unusual in acoustic keyboard instruments. The strings run long the length of the keyborad, rather than perpendicular to it, which facilitates 'fretting'.

The Hohner has no such limitation - you could play every note simultaneously if you have an appropriate plank of wood with which to do it!

It must be the 'T' model (finished in black leatherette rather than polished wood), though, as earlier models weren't fully passive.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 11:40 AM

What's probably a now rare instrument is the 'Piano Harp'.

Basically an autoharp sized chord zither fitted with an old fashioned typwriter keys like attachment
for striking individual strings.

Only ever seen one in use, a very proficient busker on Charles Bridge in Prague.

That guy was an enthusiastic proponent and historian of his instrument.
Still have his printed English language info sheet somewhere.

My great grandad used to play the basic chord zither, but didn't have the keyboard device to go with it.

Somebody with practical abilities and a decent tool kit could probably convert a spare cheap autoharp ?

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 12:51 PM

Pip wants to play more than one note at a time, but without committing to piano.

Accordion group - acc., concertina, melodeon
Hammered dulcimer - if you like the sound
Mountain dulcimer - don't just strum it

I'm proud of my mountain dulcimer playing, but I have the advantage of piano lessons, music theory and experience with finger-picking guitar.

Pip, I see that you have a zither. Have you considered becoming more accomplished on the zither?

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 01:58 PM

Pip wants to play more than one note at a time, but without committing to piano.

Not quite - I want to play more than one note at a time with percussive attack and decay, and without buying anything that (a) costs too much; (b) is bigger than a suitcase; or (c) needs a plug.

I could certainly do with working on my zither, which ticks all the boxes. That said, halfway down the thread I realised that I also want a bit of bass, which may render the whole enterprise moot. Or I may just take up the guitar, or the banjo, or the acoustic bass guitar, or...

GfS: So, you don't like pianos, or synths?....They have some really nice sounds!....

I think what it comes down to with acoustic instruments is that I like chiff and squeak and twang and buzz and skronk. Or rather, I like my pure notes with a bit of chiff and squeak and twang and buzz and skronk.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Mar 12 - 02:18 PM

I am breaking up an old pianola we have in the shed. I've been wondering what to do with the bits, and one use for the strings I thought of is a bass valiha - a tube zither with the strings running up and down it.

I wonder what kind of pipe would be strong and resonant enough to make the body? PVC would most likely warp and doesn't have much resonance. Does anybody use four- to six-inch carbon fibre or fibreglass tube for anything?

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 12:11 AM

Hey, here's a little 'tidbit' of musical trivia:
Irving Berlin, who some consider the top songwriter of the last century, was self taught on the piano, didn't know how to read or write music, and could only play in one key. He later had 'levers' built into his piano, that when pulled, would change the tuning of the piano, so he could play in his one key, but it played in another.

Just for shits and giggles....but nonetheless true.

Regards to all the other 'multi-instrument' players out there!

GfS

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,STM
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 04:40 PM

Well, you know what they say- a piano is just a harp with a coffin, so maybe ditch the coffin and just make so with the harp!

(I have to say, I disagree with the above saying, I'm quite fond of the piano).

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:02 PM

If an English concertina is the way you're leaning, and quite right too if you are, then the Jackie model is a good comparatively cheap EC that will get you very well started whilst you decide whether it is the thing for you ...

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:42 AM

once you start using multi-tracking as an instrument in its right, you're in between worlds anyway

You may have a point.

Box 25/4 Lid

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: matt milton
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:45 AM

haven't read the whole thread, but has anyone suggested xylophones? Is there a "bass xylophone"? Wooden xylophones will tend to sound a bit "darker" than metal ones.

If you can break your self-imposed rule about electricity, then treat yourself to a Stylophone. They sound great when you tune it as low as it goes and turn the volume right up.

In fact, get a Stylophone anyway, irrespective of whether you use it as a bass substitute, they're so cheap on amazon...

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:59 AM

eBay seems to be overflowing with glockenspiels, but there are hardly any xylophones on there apart from the kids' variety.

One thing I found when I was recording Box is that it's much easier to find your way around a piano keyboard than a diatonic zither, where all the strings look the same - I pretty much had to keep practising until I was hitting the right strings from muscle memory. Perhaps a chromatic zither should be my next fantasy purchase.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: matt milton
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:35 AM

I really wouldn't rule out just buying a cheap electronic keyboard (Bontempi or Casio sort of thing).

Particularly if you can get one that has a built-in speaker. Mic'ing up built-in speakers immediately makes such things a lot more organic-sounding and "de-professionalized". The cheaper and more basic they are, the more plain and unadorned their sounds tend to be.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:03 AM

I think the melodica's got my sustained-note keyboard needs covered for now. Plus I've got the Bontempi, which is an acoustic instrument with an electric fan; shame about the fan, really.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: matt milton
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:33 AM

I wasn't thinking of sustained-note keyboard sounds; I was thinking of precisely the kind of more percussive sounds you asked about.

My early-80s cheapo Casio keyboard sounds great when you use to play bass notes on its vibraphone noise, for instance.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:56 AM

Sounds awfully tempting but... um... er...

I just like making acoustic-sounding noises with acoustic instruments, and occasionally making weird skronky noises with acoustic instruments. If I was generating the sound from presets I might as well just play the score.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:59 AM

My posts keep disappearing for some reason. I'll try again.

"I know I started out by talking about keyboards, but now I think of it they aren't the only way to produce notes - preferably more than one at a time - with a percussive attack & decay..."

This may be stating the obvious, but the instrument you're describing is a guitar: portable, polyphonic, infinitely adaptable to virtually and style of music, available at all different price points. There's a reason so many people play the things.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:11 AM

To be honest I half expected somebody to suggest a guitar as soon as I posted!

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:28 AM

Why not guitar? After all it seems to meet all your criteria.

I was also going to suggest a ukulele.

Cheap and portable - it outdoes the guitar in both respects. You can buy a usable uke for about £25 a pretty OK one for about £50 and a pretty good one for £100. I know, I've bought all three and still have 2 & 3. The first I gave to a charity shop.

The uke doesn't have the range of a guitar but it is much easier to get started - I know, I've tried both and I really love my uke but I never really got to grips with guitar.

That said either is an option. Both can be played chordally or single note style if you wish.

You could also consider a Mandolin, Bouzouki, Mandola, Cittern and even Banjo!

Whiskey in the Jar

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 02:06 PM

Phil Edwards: "once you start using multi-tracking as an instrument in its right, you're in between worlds anyway"

You may be quoting from another post, but I only saw it under your post..but for what it's worth:

I consider my sound engineer an equal part of a performance, whether 'live' or in a studio, and the deal I have worked out with him is an even split of anything paid, for the gig..and yes, I do consider a good engineer, as a musician, and his equipment, and his expertise as much of the gig as ANY of the players!

I had a recording studio, in L.A., and I KNOW the WORK that goes into it!(besides having to put up with the different musician's temperaments).

I also prefer a sound engineer to also BE a musician, and I also expect a good musician, to understand at least SOMETHING about sound engineering..because in the final analysis, ALL musicians are dealing with SOUND...not just chops.

Also, it has been said, and I agree, that a great conductor, these days, is now sitting behind the soundboard, instead of the band.

Just for what it is worth.

GfS

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 02:41 PM

I bought my first piano accordion as a portable alternative to a piano. You can make them quiet enough to practice on (yes - really), and then let it go in performance.

Irving Berlin's piano was a grand, with levers to move the action and keys across the instrument, in order to transpose into another key. I think it was donated to the Smithsonian after his death.

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 02:58 PM

once you start using multi-tracking as an instrument in its right, you're in between worlds anyway

The quote is from me (18 Mar 12 - 01:05 PM) & I think you're way off with respect of the sort of thing you desribing, with all due respect to what you do. I'm talking of another level of musical intimacy facilated by the ready availability of cheap but (very) effective recording equipment & software that negates the need for recording studio whilst becoming part of the musical process, both virtual & corporeal. What I'm talking about is a creative process that can take place on your SOFA, on a lap-top, running the most basic of software. For £30 you can get a soundcard to interface with basic hardware and you're off into the outer-limits. For the price of a few hours studio time (and a little nouce) you're set up for life basically.

Here's that link again. It's just self-sampled uke & pocket trumpet processed (looped / filtered in real time) through my old lite version of Ableton Live (Remix) bought for £20 or so back in 2002 just to see what all the fuss was about.

http://www.sedayne.co.uk/sounds/requiemedit.mp3

Subject: RE: Wanted: not a piano
From: Crowhugger
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:45 PM

Budget wise there's the DIY approach with a relatively low-budget, acoustic strike-and-decay instrument. If space wasn't a limiting factor I'd suggest handbells as a great way to bang out a melody. And they aren't cheap.