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BS: Guns & laws in the US

Bill D 20 Mar 12 - 05:39 PM
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Subject: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:39 PM

Because it is so easy to morph a thread on a particular tragedy into a general debate on weapons, perhaps we can, as Jeri says, try to confine it to one place.
(There are, of course, many other threads where the topic is beaten to death...but some are quite long... and this title is pretty specific)

Perhaps some posts can be moved here....


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 05:46 PM

Several of our members are competent, qualified and trustworthy gun owners...who mostly think that control can be achieved by better laws & strict enforcement.
Others feel that something approaching total bans...except for 'officials' in law enforcement... should be attempted.

There is obviously no easy solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:00 PM

Bill, has anyone ever explained the incredible disparity between the per capita gun-assault rate in Canada and the US?

Only about 25% of Canadian households own a gun vs. 50% in the US, but that alone doesn't explain the difference. Could it be because most of the shootings in the US are committed by criminal types with illegal handguns and that actual handgun ownership in the US is far higher than what's reported because of illegal ownership?

Also, why do Canadians want to own guns at a rate half that of the US?
Are Americans really that much more violent at heart? If so, why?

Obviously more is going on here than the simple availability of guns. As I noted on the other thread, few licensed gun owners ever shoot anybody, no matter how many weapons they own.

And while I don't think anybody needs to own an assault rifle, they seem to be used only rarely to commit crimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:28 PM

I'm not sure...does Canada's constitution have anything like our 2nd amendment?

Also, the US had all these wars with England--1776+ and 1814...just to BE the US...and with Spain...and to 'conquer' the West. Canada didn't have to deal with Indians in order to move West...as far as I know.

History tells you a lot... attitude is trickier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 07:54 PM

Canada certainly had numerous Indian tribes, they just weren't so quick to slaughter them I suppose.

The English in Canada would probably have simply ordered them to behave and the French wouldn't have noticed whether they did or not.

But a better comparison would be between the US and the UK, where ordinary citizens neither have, nor want, guns.

Although gun crime has increased with the influx of drugs and drug dealers, it is still probably true that we have fewer murders (of all types) nationally each year than New York or San Francisco.

Also, we have proportionately, many fewer cops killed on duty.

When the idea of arming our police came under review, the vast majority of the public were dead set against it, with the result that only a few specially trained officers have guns.

This also means that there are many fewer mistakes made in the UK, though the only acceptable number would be zero, which is virtually impossible with human beings.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:34 PM

Do not assume that a UK/US comparison is valid. Moreover, the UK has no codified (written) constitution -- that is, there is no one single document that IS "The Constitution." Basically, the governance of the UK is based upon two principles: Respect For Law and The Primacy Of Parliament.

The American colonies did NOT want to separate from Britain, but as they wrote in 1776:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.

Whether or not the reasons following are true, they were believed such at the time. Thus later we have statements such as:

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
       -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, vol. 1, p.334

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
       -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188

Men trained in arms from their infancy, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest.
    -- From the Declaration of the Continental Congress, July 1775

"To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                        -- George Mason, speech of June 14, 1788

Are we at last brought to such a humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defence? Where is the difference between having our arms in our own possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defence be the *real* object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?
                        -- Patrick Henry, speech of June 9 1788

That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United states who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms....
-- Samuel Adams, in "Phila. Independent Gazetteer", August 20, 1789

There are more recent statements, from people such as John Stuart Mill, JFK, Hubert Humphrey, and Mohatmas Gandhi, which I could also quote.

This is for discussion, not polemics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:37 PM

It seems so simple... in the UK, most "ordinary citizens" don't WANT guns....so why would they here? I suggest there are many historical, demographic and cultural explanations as to why this situation developed, but understanding the complexities gets you only so far.
We can 'understand' how & why tobacco got such a foothold in the world, but getting people to reduce or stop using it is another matter.

What we have now is a gun culture where many treat firearms as 'just part of daily life'....then, with huge metropolitan areas in several parts of the country and a rise in crime (you have serious urban crime in the UK also) guns were touted as item for "defending ones family"

We have also had many millions of men with military service who spent years being taught that guns were a way to uphold goodness and punish the bad.

A few years ago, I read an interview with a young kid from the inner city of Wash. DC who said (paraphrased) "It's just too much trouble to settle scores by fighting...etc. With a gun, you just find the guy and blow him away!" This says a LOT about the general regard for human life and the hopelessness of poverty...but it is what it is. And of course, it says a lot about the *business* of selling guns...to anyone with the money to buy them.

So many causes... so few easy solutions...


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:39 PM

The differences between the two countries is great.....in every way. Geographis size, population, history, form of the government, and about 101 other things. Now for all of those who are so gleefully asking why we are so fucked up....Well, see, folks like Bill and I would agree with you. But we are not necessarily a representative sample.

There are some good guys around here at the 'Cat who are responsible gun owners and enjoy assorted shooting sports. Guns, as Bill tried to pont out, are ingrained, a part and parcel of this society, taking different routes through geography, heritage, qnd times lived in. Because weapons were such an integral part of the very formation of this country, they have become a part of the tradition and culture. It might well be that Americans cannot understand worlds where guns don't exist. Not all Americans, but probably a number that is in the majority.

So some of you from other countries think we're nuts here and you may be right.......but you have not been born and raised in this place and as I can't have knowledge of what its like to be you, there are elements of this country that defy description.......at least in our ability to explain things like gun ownership.   I can't understand the UK fascination with Cricket and gawd knows its capable of killing people through sheer nonsense and boredom.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:45 PM

"the people of the United states who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..."

ROTFLMAO.

It's simple arithmetic. Right now, far far more people in the USA are unlawfully killed by guns than are lawfully killed by guns.

Far far more people in the USA are killed by lawbreakers using guns as adjuncts to some other type of lawbreaking than are killed by "respectable citizens" using guns in self defence.

Moreover...

The rationale for the constitutional right to bear arms was the need to be able to raise a well-armed militia against foreign armies. The arms even in the USA in private hands are a broken reed in any military conflict in today's world.

The US is inanely attached to a period in history when as a result of a civil war a large part of the USA was a failed state where the writ of government did not run.

It is time to grow up and put away dangerous toys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:47 PM

I'm not armed, nor am I a slave, and I can say what I like about the government of MY country.

The argument is specious!

The founding fathers had no idea at the time that a majority of Americans would regress to the point that they couldn't be trusted to tell the difference between Burgers and Food, let alone distinguish a tyrannical government from a hole in the ground.

Bread and Circuses my friend (actually burgers, hotdogs, NASCAR and basketball).

The US is back to the Roman Empire, with all the same urges to pacify the known world.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:57 PM

The quotations from the 1700s were about a time in which most people lived in rural areas, with Indians & wild animals and hunting as a major means of support.

When defense of the new 'country' was involved. they NEEDED every adult male who could obtain a weapon... and the weapons were non-standard, usually hand-made. Conscripted or volunteer soldiers needed to bring what weapons they had. It was almost 100 years before the army was able to standardize and issue weapons in any number.
The 2nd amendment and the views of the founders were written with that situation prevailing. When the demographics and the technology changed, the constitution and the attitude did not. Everyone who liked or was seriously involved with guns interpreted the Constitution to mean "You can STILL have almost any weapon you can get a hold of 'legally'"... as if frontier rules still applied.

As demographics & society and urbanization changed, so did rationalizations for why the 2nd Amendment should not be changed and should be interpreted as freely as possible. (I still believe that the 2nd Amendment should be held to read that "the people when in a militia...or army should bear arms"...but we see how THAT idea is treated by the NRA...etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 08:59 PM

The rationale for the constitutional right to bear arms was the need to be able to raise a well-armed militia against foreign armies. The arms even in the USA in private hands are a broken reed in any military conflict in today's world.

No, it wasn't. Read the quotes I included above. It was to protect the people from their own government.

As for "arms...in private hands" -- the Vietnamese vs. the French and later the Americans, the Afghans vs. the Russians, the Zionists vs. the British, the Libyans vs. their government, the Syrians vs. their government, the French Revolution, the 1916 Easter Rising, the revolts of 1848 and many more incidents give lie to that thought. A person with a rifle CAN stop a tank, a person with a handgun CAN take out a helicopter. Hell, if you know how (and the information is out there) you can do either simply by using your brain. No rational person is going to use nukes or nerve gas on their own citizens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:08 PM

"Bread and Circuses my friend (actually burgers, hotdogs, NASCAR and basketball).

*grin*...this from a country where 'football' (soccer) fans regularly attack other fans.

I see folks from the UK reduced to simplistic insults about our **collective** consciousness... as if there were any such thing!

I realize that MOST folks in the UK don't attack each other over football... and I wish it were easier to explain how this HUGE country is not homogeneous and has a wide variety of cultural areas to try to appease.

If *I* could push a 'sanity button', guns would be uncommon.... but....


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:09 PM

"".then, with huge metropolitan areas in several parts of the country and a rise in crime (you have serious urban crime in the UK also) guns were touted as item for "defending ones family"""

For defending one's family, we use the police force, which is trained to use guns responsibly.

I know from watching reality TV that the majority of your cops use guns responsibly (a pity sheriff John Burnell can't manage to do the same with commentary). Perhaps it is time that somebody told your citizens that.

Our cops have, to a reasonable degree grown out of institutional racism, misogyny, corruption and indifference,and in the main, do a pretty good job.

We leave that to them except in extremely rare circumstances.

It is also true that up until about 1900, many British people went armed with handguns for self defence against a very real possibility of violent attack and robbery.

However, the gunfighter mentality never took hold and as Robert Peel's invention, the police force, made the streets safer, the majority of the public left their guns at home and gradually got rid of them altogether.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:10 PM

Sorry, Bill. The record is against that.

This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."
                                  -- Abraham Lincoln, 4 April 1861

"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom."
                                             -- John F. Kennedy

Every Communist must grasp the truth, 'Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.'
                                             -- Mao Tse-tung, 1938

Rifles, muskets, long-bows and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon -- so long as there is no answer to it -- gives claws to the weak.
                   -- George Orwell, "You and the Atom Bomb", 1945

Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms. [...] the right of the citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government and one more safeguard against a tyranny which now appears remote in America, but which historically has proved to be always possible.
                                  -- Hubert H. Humphrey, 1960

To make inexpensive guns impossible to get is to say that you're putting a money test on getting a gun. It's racism in its worst form.
   -- Roy Innis, president of the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE), 1988

Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power.
    -- Yoshimi Ishikawa, Japanese author, in the LA Times 15 Oct 1992

Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws.
                            -- Edward Abbey, "Abbey's Road", 1979


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:24 PM

>"It's just too much trouble to settle scores by fighting...etc. With a gun, you just find the guy and blow him away!" This says a LOT about the general regard for human life and the hopelessness of poverty....

It doesn't say that much about either, though it says a lot about the individual who's being quoted.

You don't have to be poor to lack a conscience. Furthermore, if the speaker is serious, I doubt that he'll purchase a firearm from a legal gun dealer. He's at least as likely to buy (or borrow or rent) it from the guy down the block so it's harder to trace.

But people with a real criminal mentality often can't imagine getting caught. That's part of the overall crime problem everywhere. Anyway, I don't think this guy is representative either of Americans or of poor people. (Of course, law-abiding poor people want guns too.)

The most important question is not why Americans want to own guns; it's how to keep the criminal and/or short-fused minority from shooting people - sometimes many people at once. (The Florida stand-your-ground law is obviously not helpful. I can only imagine that it was passed because there's a lot of crime in cities like Miami and Jacksonville, and a lot of people are scared stiff.)

But taking away all the guns is simply not going to happen, any more than banning cricket in the UK.

As I understand it, there is no comprehensive "second amendment" style legislation in Canada *guaranteeing* the right to bear arms, but gun ownership in Canada has been regarded as legal, with some restrictions, for a hundred years and more.

I don't know the ratio, but plenty of Canadians also served in the World Wars and were taught how to shoot and kill. Even a peacetime military teaches that.

Finally, except for some NRA members, I doubt that many American gun owners know or care anything about those statements by the Founding Fathers. They simply believe that guns are good, or at least necessary. And they know their Second Amendment rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:24 PM

Oh my, Rap..it is way too late here in the east to point out all the flaws in logic and relevance in those new quotes... maybe tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:24 PM

"AMENDMENT II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Read it and weep Rap.

I do actually bother to read stuff about the US constitution sometimes.

There is a very simple answer to your suggestions about hillbillies with colt 45s defying armies. 1794.

And the power of the armies has increased exponentially since then. The places today on the world stage where ragged rebels are defeating armies depend not on sidearms or rifles but bombs (or IEDs) - and foreign governments riding in with modern technology to sterilise the armies and airforces.

Don, I think you over-egg the position about how wonderful our UK police are but they do generally make a nice contrast to what appears to be a very widespread US belief that might makes right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:31 PM

.. a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen...
         -- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

I live in a county that comprises 1,147.46 square miles (2,971.9 km2). Great Britain comprises about 229,848 km2 (88,744.8 sq miles). GB has about 60,000,000 people; Bannock County has about 80,000. Our population density is about 79 per square mile (most of the population is concentrated in Pocatello/Chubbuck, adjacent cities); the population density of Great Britain is about 717 per square mile. The Sheriff's Department has about 120 people on the staff, this includes jailers, dispatchers, and others who are not out patrolling.

Granted, the cities and towns have varying numbers of police officers and the Idaho State Police are also around. But these are limited in their jurisdictions -- only in "hot pursuit" or during a "mutual aid" situation can they cross their boundaries.

Nearly everyone is law-abiding; I doubt that they are less so than other, similar areas in the US or the UK.

But there is A LOT of space between people, and it can take the cops quite some time to get to you.

This is not an apologia, just a statement of facts here in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 09:34 PM

I'm not taking any side here. If it were up to me ALL legal gun owners in the US would be licensed, after extensive training and testing. But it's not up to me.

Bye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 10:01 PM

""Don, I think you over-egg the position about how wonderful our UK police are but they do generally make a nice contrast to what appears to be a very widespread US belief that might makes right.""

Perhaps you and I view our police from different angles Richard.

I judge their qualities based on what we might expect our country to be like were they not as effective, or even not there. The fact that they are essentially unarmed by choice is a significant factor in my judgement.

One last comment on a subject which is, I think, worn out.

The only man who accidentally kills his wife, friend, or child while cleaning a gun is the man who is armed.

The only man who executes a harmless child for ""walking while black, in my neighbourhood"" is the man who is armed.

The only man who shoots and kills a woman who knocks on his front door to ask for a drink of water, or directions, is the man who is armed.

It's not rocket science.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 10:30 PM

I choose not to own a gun though I grew up in a home with guns and hunters and was trained in their use. Jacqui and Kendall sigh with relief at this fact.
However, I think of the courage of the US woman who, about a month ago, called 911 re: a break in while she was alone with her children, reported the situation and asked if she should shoot - she had a legal gun. The dispatcher told her that if she was in danger for her life she could. She did after he broke the door down and attacked her. The nut case who was breaking in died. Had she not fired the gun it is likely her stalker would have harmed her and her family. She was found completely innocent of any charges.
Interesting that the US is not even in the top 40 of countries when compared by Murders per Capita.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Ireland, Italy and others have higher murder rates. Wonder why guns in the US is always such an issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: John P
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 11:33 PM

I live in Washington state, where there have been four instances in the last few weeks of children getting their hands on their parents' guns. Two fatalities and one injury that will cripple a little girl for life. According to the Seattle Times, it is not specifically illegal in Washington to allow your children access to a loaded gun. And the parents are not responsible for what their children do with the gun. There are no repercussions to them at all - there is no crime to charge them with. I know that banning guns completely is impossible, but those who say we don't need more laws and stricter regulations about them are nuts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 20 Mar 12 - 11:47 PM

You can't be serious, Sinsull? USA not even in the top 40?

Could it be because the USA is not a European country and therefore doesn't feature in the survey in the first place? The website cites its source:-

"Murders (per capita) by country", European Institute for Crime Prevention and Control International Statistics on Crime and Justice, 2011.

Doesn't explain why Australia and New Zealand ARE listed.

From http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/homicide.htm

"Western and Central Europe homicide rate = 1.5 per 100,000 people.

USA is 6.1 per 100,000 people.

Canada is 1.85 per 100,000.

Handguns only increase the murder rate. Canada and much of Western Europe effectively ban handguns for the most part."


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:13 AM

Here's an interesting article from "Der Spiegel" - written in 2007 but worth a look:

De-quilling the porcupine: Swiss mull tighter gun laws

It's often assumed that Switzerland is proof that really tight gun controls and regulations work in a population which has a high percentage of gun ownership. However, as the article makes clear, Switzerland, with all its regulations, has the second highest rate of death by gun <>per capita in the world - next to the US. So, not quite the perfect solution to gun control.

To update the article, in 2011, the Swiss voted against tighter controls.

I make no comment on the everyday living environment of the US, or on the historical and social pathways that gave rise to the current state of affairs re guns and gun control there - it's no business of mine to pontificate on that. I also enjoy target shooting and, in earlier days long ago, shot Lee Enfields, Belgian FNs, Bren guns in indoor ranges and on the Army ranges at Bisley. But I don't own any weapons greater than a .177 gas pistol, and rarely use it these days. I do believe that no guns = no deaths by guns. The problem in Britain is not death by legal guns, but death by illegal guns - and that's where the initiative should be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:09 AM

If it were up to me ALL legal gun owners in the US would be licensed.

There are few places in the US where any gun OWNERS are required to be licensed. The license refered to in US debates about "gun licenses" are a license to carry a concealed gun in public places.

Even in most places where a license is required for concealed carry it is still legal for a person who legally owns a gun to transport it, provided that it is "not immediately accessible," and in most cases is unloaded. Some states require that it be "cased," and some require that it have a "trigger lock" installed, with other rather inane and mostly useless additional provisions.

Having done some hunting and casual target shooting as a youngster, I was still required to obtain a license in Boston which was one of the two places requiring a license to have a gun in possession outside ones own home at the time. The license was needed in order to participate in the Faculty Pistol Club matches that took place at various club locations scattered around the area. I achieved (barely) an NRA Expert rating in gallery pistol during my second season.

In Army ROTC, I happened to be at the only University ROTC allowed to assign an MOS (Military Occupational Specialty Rating) to newly commissioned officers and was certified in Ammunition Maintenance when I was commissioned.

A delay for a couple of years for a Masters Degree resulting my arrival at Basic Officer Training when there was no need for Ammo Maint Officers, so I was retrained as an Armament Maintenance Officer, theoretically qualified to repair and maintain all individual weapons used by the US Army up to and including 155 mm guns and the couple of "portable nuclear armaments" (excluding nuclear ammo) then in the inventory.

On assignment, I was sent to active duty in Arizona where I was "retrained" as a Technical Operations Officer in charge of testing existing and experimental/developmental vehicles and weapons, including trucks, tanks, and armored personnel carriers and all the weapons carried by any of them.

I subsequently held a couple of "official positions" in company "gun clubs" after completing my military duties (7.5 years of them, including Reserve time).

I've done small amounts of hunting since, more for the purpose of helping some "less experienced friends" than for the purpose of taking game.

I DO NOT HAVE A STATE LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED WEAPON, because the state statute imposes a requirement that you must complete a training course with a statutory minimum fee of $500 in order to get a license. Prior experience can't be counted, and you can't take a test to show that you know anything. A license is not necessary for any use I can envision, although it would be a significant "convenience" to be able to show complaince with a law that doesn't apply to my use rather than having to explain to the "authorities" what law does apply.

When the states in the US began passing their "concealed carry laws" the information pamphlets provided by the US Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, listed more than 32,000 separate, disparate, and conflicting state and local ordinances supposedly regulating possession, storage, and transport of "weapons."

To a certain extent, the only thing accomplished by "new regulations," specifically including the Federal "Brady Act," was to supercede many of those local ordinances, which was a great convenience to some legitimate owners and recreational shooters.

Prior to the Brady act, there were slightly fewer than 1,200 licensed fully automatic weapons in the US outside of the military. Most of those were in the possession of Police Departments (who were, and are, required to have a separate license for each one in their possission). Two years after the Brady Act specifically spelled out the requirements for licensing the possession of full automatic weapons, there were more than 18,000 legally licensed, with the difference mostly in private citizens' control. (FBI and BATF quoted nearly identical numbers at about the same time.)

Now that the anti-gunners have demanded "clear and specific rules" anyone with enough money can probably have a real "machine gun" or an "antitank gun," with a clear conscience and little fear of being accused of violating some trivial requirement that would previously have been "exceedingly troublesome." (For recreational purposes, of course.)

The "clear and specific" codification of requirements for licenses to carry concealed weapons has encouraged a mass demand for the licenses, and it's impossible for anyone knowledgeable of firearms and their legitimate uses to believe that the majority of these "new licenses" are held by people actually capable of knowing when and how thier "arms" can be effectively used, and when they are best simply left concealed (or at home). The principal effect of "more restrictive laws" has been to vastly increase the number of marginally qualified (but legal) persons who now feel compelled to "always have their toys close at hand."

The "clear and specific" codification of requirements for licenses has also made it significantly easier for criminals persons not qualified to legally buy and possess guns to know exactly how to "play the sytesm" to make ILLEGAL purchases successfully.

While many argue that the police here are armed and one should rely on them in any case where a weapon is necessary, it is probably difficult for many elsewhere to understand that in many places the driving time alone, for a police response, can exceed an hour. It is additionally a well confirmed fact of life that the "cops on the beat" are no more expert in the use of their weapons than many of the citizens who might feel the necessity of defending themselves (especially in areas that lack immediate local police, which are often rural with strong hunting and "varmint control" traditions.).

The police generally do have requirements for "marksmanship training," but it's simply impossible to learn much from an hour per year and 100 rounds. (I shot more than 3200 rounds in each season of the Boston Pistol League, and still barely got into consistent Expert ratings - which really aren't all that demanding.

I had occasion once to shoot a "casual match" against a relative who had just completed the FBI Marksmanship School with an "FBI Expert" rating, and on the first gallery round I doubled his score - without having fired one of my guns in the previous year. When he complained about his "issue gun" being rather poor, I traded guns and still beat him by 80 points (out of 300 possible).) I was far from able to shoot to my prior NRA Expert rating of a few years earlier at that time.

US Army training instructors have consistently agreed that it's virtually impossible to "make a marksman" out of anyone who lacks a basic familiarity with firearms prior to entering the service, and fewer than 1 out of 300 recruits is able to show the "basic abilities" for training as an "elite shooter." (And fewer than 10% of those are really "trainable" even after being offered the option.) In real marksmanship training the rule is that it takes 1,000 rounds per year to approach basic competence and maintain it. And that's just against things that don't shoot back.

In several notorious "shootouts" police or FBI have fired more than a thousand or two rounds without hitting anything. (It is difficult under pressure, but ...)

In my present urban area the Police are nearby, and I can rely on them. And there are lots of things more important than "shooting" in the business of protecting the poeple.

I've fired 3 rounds in the past 12 years, and with each of the three I humanely dispatched the varmint that was attacking a pet. The dozen or so that didn't attack went wherever they went, unmolested. (I firmly believe that at least two of the three ('possums) probably were rabid, as their behavior was "strongly atypical." The animal control people - the only ones who can legally dispose of dead animals here - didn't report whether they checked them, although I suggested they might want to.)

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:02 AM

A US homicide rate more than three times that of Canada (and homicide doesn't just include guns) suggests a deeper cause than simple gun ownership is involved.

Maybe Americans just tend to be angrier and crazier or inclined to crime than most other people. Or they believe deeply in their action movies. How does one legislate against any of these things?

And as John suggests, it isn't the "gun culture" that's a problem. People with rifles and shotguns and collections of historical firearms don't generally commit gun crimes or shoot each other by accident. It's the "handgun culture" (which can't come directly from traditions of hunting game). And it's ironic that some gun-control efforts have apparently made the overall situation worse.

A lot of people must want to pack iron while walking down the street. How many actually need to? Not many, I hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:42 AM

I cannot leave this discussion (which I will after this post) without urging you to read this article. The author is required reading at the US military academies, St. Cyr, and Sandhurst as well as numerous police departments. If you wish to read more deeply, I suggest his "On Combat" and his "On Killing."


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:00 AM

Its all about no consistent standard across the states. Even so however those legally owning weapons are not of any concern to me as most are trained (usually) and also enjoy target shooting at qualified ranges etc ... not all but most.

It is the weapons in the hands of the criminals. No felon can legally own a gun .. so what do they do, go to a gun show and walk out with enough weapons to arm a small country. Take them to a city and sell them for 10x the money ... at the gun show, no background check, none. If a dealer has a federal firearms license, yes they are still required to do the check, however, private sales are not covered. What do you find at gun shows? 90% private sales cause ... no paperwork

Get rid of that loophole, we will all be safer


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:01 AM

I hope Rap has his underground shelter all dug & equipped and has been stockpiling drinking water, MRE's and most importantly lots of ammunition and guns, so that he's all set for Armageddon and the Race Wars. And maybe The Rupture.

Which millenialist/militia group does he belong to, anybody know??


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:09 AM

*reading Rap's post again this morning*

"Sorry, Bill. The record is against that."

I'm trying to figure out exactly what of MY post 'the record is against'. Do you mean that since the 1700s and early 1800s, various famous & semi-famous folk have seemed to support private ownership of guns? If so, that's not a direct reply to my point.
I argued that: ... as society changed, so did the need for private ownership of weapons...and I mean specifically handguns and semi-automatic 'super' weapons. A short list of quotes from the likes of Lincoln, JFK and HHH do not, by themselves, disprove my assertion.

I find it somewhat .... looking for right words... scary & disingenuous? that we should keep laws & arrangements that allow so many incidents like the school shootings and neighborhood drive-bys, just on the paranoid 'principle' that we 'may' need guns ...someday... to resist our own government.

That sort of reasoning--in many cases- 'feels' to me like a cover-up for just liking to mess with guns....


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:26 AM

If Rap is indeed leaving this thread (he was posting as I was typing), I don't suppose I'll get a direct answer.
But I put for the record, that I divide the issue into 2 parts...

1)What SHOULD we have as a sane, reasonable situation

2)What should we do, considering the facts about how many weapons are already IN private hands.

I think that olddude is on the right track regarding #2.... it is just too easy to GET guns.... but I also believe that tightening laws about gun shows will do very little to control access to guns by the seriously dangerous folk who intend to commit violence. It may make it harder for the average guy to buy a gun on a whim, and thus might limit some in-home tragedies...but there are always guns available. The prices might go up.... but really crazy folks will raise the money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: olddude
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:35 AM

Oh Bill, crazy folks will get guns no matter what country or what laws. Hell I can build one from scratch myself if I wanted to and it would be a fine weapon ... We can't do anything about the crazies. We can make it harder for felons to get and distribute weapons via gun laws. The Mexican drug guys get the weapons from the Texas gun shows 1 mile from the border. They use our own weapons against our border agents and police. Nuts ain't it.

Greg
Rap is one of the nicest people you could ever meet. He likes his firearms so what .. Some folks like me also like banjo's ... that was uncalled for and I would expect better from you


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:45 AM

Yes.. what olddude said...*I* have met Rap... and he IS a good, sensible, honest guy. We have different opinions on part of this issue, but I would trust him with my life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 10:48 AM

Well if I had to go back into a spider hole, I would want Rap next to me for sure, I trust him with my life any day


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:00 AM

How about we go back to Atlatls?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:19 AM

Spaw
I am still laughing about that cannon last night on Top Shot ... OMG
every year they come up with something else ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:29 AM

Rap is one of the nicest people you could ever meet.

Never said he wasn't, Dan, he likely is. I don't know him so I can't - and wouldn't - say one or the other.

He likes his firearms so what...

So do I "like my firearms" & have quite a few & a NY concealed carry permit.

But if you read the whole collection of the quotations he posted, you'll have to admit that the impression given was ..... well, lets say, oa bit fanatical??

I'm with you- nuke the gun shows & have a uniform, federal carry permit process instead of the hodge-podge of State regs that run from New York's to the ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:40 AM

100,000 Americans will be shot in 2012 by other Americans with handguns...

America has the highest per capital murder rate of any civilized industrialized nation in the world...

Yet, we aren't allowed to have this conversation because those who ***profit*** from the sales of handguns have enough money to out-shout any sensible, adult conversation about guns because, in their very narrow view, the 2nd amendment says so...

Problem is that the 2nd amendment says no such thing... It is a single sentence and ***not*** two... That meas it has a subject and a predicate... The subject of the amendment is "well regulated militia" and everything else, including the "right to bare arms" is in the predicate... But basic English doesn't enter into either the NRA or the Supreme Clowns thinking because of the $$$ and power of the NRA...

So we don't have that sensible, adult conversation...

And the beat goes on... As well as the carnage...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:43 AM

It turns out that 21 states now have "stand-your-ground" laws. (According to CNN.)

The Florida law apparently states that you can only shoot *if* the other person was the first aggressor and *if* you believe that your *life* or someone else's is in imminent danger.

It turns out, again according to CNN, that of the 40 cases of "stand-your-ground" shootings in Florida, most or all involved unarmed victims.

In legislative debates on such laws, law enforcement (a conservative bunch, no?) has opposed them while the National Rifle Association has vigorously supported them. Despite its large membership, the NRA functions essentially as the lobby for gun dealers and manufacturers.

The gun-show loophole is big enough to drive a tank through. It's vigorously supported by the NRA.

Since they don't seem to care who buys a gun at a gun show, NRA members who support the loophole must be crime-proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 11:59 AM

What's the problem? Worked for the Earp brothers & Doc Holliday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Raparree
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:16 PM

The only "gun group" of which I am a member is the National MUZZLELOADING Rifle Association. They compete with matchlocks, caplocks, flintlocks, and so on.

The only "survivalist" group of which I am a member is...none. Never have been, never (as far as I know) will be.

Yes, I have firearms. I enjoy shooting them at PAPER TARGETS -- not silhouette, not pictures -- circles within circles. I might try my hand at Cowboy Action Shooting this year as they have very, very strict rules on safety and don't tolerate among them gun crazies. They also limit the types of firearms you can use to originals or reproductions of originals which date prior to 1899 (with one specialized exception).

I posted the quotes, as I noted at the time, to facilitate discussion. They may or may not demonstrate my own beliefs and anyone who thinks otherwise had too many courses in literary criticism and/or watches too much television.

Bill, my point was that the thinking of the "Founding Fathers" carries over to the present day. Nothing more.

A final farewell to this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:20 PM

You are on a roll today Greg :-)
Lets do another watch wind off .. my 992B can beat your 992B :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:34 PM

Bobert:

Actually, the subject of the sentence is NOT "militia", which appears in an adverbial clause. The subject of the sentence is "right". The predicate of the sentence is "shall not be infringed", a passive verb construction.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Stu
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 12:59 PM

A written constitution is an albatross around the neck of any modern democracy.

I have to say I walked into a gun shop in the US 18 months ago and it was a scary and sobering experience for a hayseed from the UK like wot I is . . . I really didn't feel at all comfortable. I put it down to cultural differences and squeamishness (I'm happy to be that way, as there are more than enough guns in the world as it is).

Never mind. More than made up for by the fact the US is the best place in the world to get brekkers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 01:06 PM

The "problem" is in the intended relationship between the two clauses.

Does it mean that the right shall not be infringed *solely* because of the need for a well regulated militia? Or because that need is just one good reason?

The Supreme Court has decided on the latter interpretation. Had the Founders meant otherwise, it would have been easy enough to be more specific, like granting the right only to active members of such a militia.

And homicidal shootings were so rare in the eighteenth century, when firearms were clumsy, that the Founders may not have considered them a serious objection to the right to hunt and defend onself without interference.

Anyway, "the right of the people...shall not be infringed" seems pretty unambiguous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 01:20 PM

And dig this:

http://news.yahoo.com/holding-gun-may-think-others-too-221346341.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 01:50 PM

"Does it mean that the right shall not be infringed *solely* because of the need for a well regulated militia? Or because that need is just one good reason?"

It means that in 1789, there was no confusion. If the country needed to be defended, all male citizens who had weapons WERE the de facto militia! They had an odd assortment of weapons, and it was presumed that when not defending the country, they used them for hunting and VERY occasionally, self-defense or settling scores..(dueling did exist).
When writing the 2nd amendment, they had no idea we'd have either the social problems, or the weapons technology we do today.
'Interpreting' what they meant now is done by deciding what you'd LIKE it to mean, then constructing an argument to fit. What is needed is a revision based on current issues....... fat chance! (Bobert explained it quite well)


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:04 PM

Maybe the citizens of the USA reserve the right of revolution if their government starts killing them for political or economic or other "reasons"?

Murder (rates) among the general populace being associated with gun ownership as a standalone hypothesis is absurd. Crime, poverty and lack of education are at the heart of all of the woes. As Dan said, he can make his own gun. So can every machine shop in the world. Therefore, I would suggest that unless these statistics are broken down into sub-categories, they are meaningless. At least three are required : crime related, domestic related and nut related. The only one that counts is domestic related and even that isn't 100%.

Spaw hit on a very important point. History and culture. You Brits that have chimed in just don't understand. Yanks do NOT TRUST their government. They remember the Boston Tea Party, slavery, Viet Nam... they WILL NOT give up their right to bear arms, nor should they HAVE TO DO SO. It's perfectly legal to bear arms IF they are not doing illegal things. And, it's up to the GOVERNMENT to stop crime, alleviate poverty and educate people. BUT, here's the deal... the US government isn't (able to?) doing these things.

So, in the end, the right to own a LEGAL gun in the good ol USA shall not be infringed... and they don't give a shit who don't like it for ANY FUCKING REASON, especially for a bunch of statistics which are not analyzed in a way that any conclusions can be drawn with accuracy to support people who say Yanks are gun crazy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:14 PM

You are on a roll today Greg :-)

Ah well, Dan, some days start out badly & go right downhill from there.

Lets do another watch wind off .. my 992B can beat your 992B...

Well, you win hands down! My best Hamilton is a 992- don't have a 992B.
You'll have to give me a little time to get one & send it to Mahlon for a tune-up. ;>)

Be well-

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:38 PM

Whatever, Amos... The militia is part of the subject... I mean, if you were diagramming the sumabich it would be part of the subject whereas the right to bare firmly in the caboose... Right???   

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:42 PM

""It's the "handgun culture" (which can't come directly from traditions of hunting game).""

No, you're right. It comes from the nineteenth century tradition of shooting human beings at the drop of a hat, or a careless word.

Apart from competitive target shooting, there is only one purpose to a handgun.....Shooting human beings!

And anyone who owns and carries a handgun is, by definition, prepared to kill a human being. The problem is with the wide variety of reasons which, to the shooter, will justify the killing.

We have just seen that, in at least one case, walking through the shooter's neighbourhood while wearing a black face was justification in the minds of the shooter, the Mayor, the Police Chief and the District attorney.

Am I the only person who finds that a terrifying prospect?

Suffice to say that, if I won the lottery tomorrow, I would leave the US out of my world tour itinerary, in spite of a lifelong desire to see Yellowstone, the Grand Canyon, springtime in New England, and many other places.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: olddude
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 02:43 PM

Greg
Mahlon told me , "love working on your friend Greg's watches, he is such a nice person" nail one on ebay and have him fix it for you. MAN what he did to that steel cased one of mine is amazing and it was a mess when I bought it

sorry for thread creep ... back to guns


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:01 PM

""Anyway, "the right of the people...shall not be infringed" seems pretty unambiguous.""

There you go again, leaving out the limiting phrase about "Tyranny in Government", later repeated as follows: ""The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
       -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, vol. 1, p.334
""


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:04 PM

gnu ~~ do you really not see that it is your national failure to 'give a shit who don't like it FOR ANY FUCKING REASON' ~~ about what anyone else in the world thinks about anything whatever which doesn't suit your own [in your eyes] god-given purposes ~~ that makes you a hissing and a byword and an object of hatred and contempt to so many right-thinking people everywhere; when you ought by rights, given just a little less of that self-centred national megalomania of yours, to be the most loved and respected nation in the history of the world.

This I mean literally, not poetically or hyperbolically.

Is it really worth it, just to have your own way in any conceivable circumstances?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:07 PM

""And dig this:

http://news.yahoo.com/holding-gun-may-think-others-too-221346341.html
""

Sorry Lighter, that won't wash. The tape of the kid begging for his life is proof positive that he was not the aggressor, and that he was coldbloodedly executed.

No way out!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:34 PM

It wasn't supposed to "wash." (This is the gun thread, not the Zimmerman thread.)

It means that people who pack guns are more likely to think that others are doing the same. And I suppose packing one at the moment of being ready to use it enhances the effect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: maeve
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:36 PM

MtheGM- Gnu is not now, nor has he ever been, an American; can't tar him with that feather.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: maeve
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:44 PM

continuing...
I suppose to be accurate I should say gnu is indeed a North American, but not one of the USA type. We should be so lucky!


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: John P
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 03:45 PM

"the right of the people...shall not be infringed" seems pretty unambiguous.

Did you know that in the Constitution, every time the word "people" is used it is referring to the citizenry as a whole, and every time a specific individual right is being given the word is "person"? Why should the 2md amendment be any different?

Is requiring a background check, trigger locks, and getting rid of hand guns really infringement? These things don't stop anyone from owning a gun. Does infringement refer to the basic right, or to any rules we might make up to make ourselves safer? Seems quite ambiguous to me.

On a different subject, I read in the paper last week that a gun in the home is four times more likely to be used on a friend or family member that to be used defending the home against invasion. People who think that gun control laws are infringement need to convince me that they have a plan for dealing with this statistic. Given these numbers, anyone who keeps a gun in the house is saying that every home invader is worth four family members.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:11 PM

"And anyone who owns and carries a handgun is, by definition, prepared to kill a human being."

YES! SO WHAT? In my mind, it is ridiculous to state it. I look at it this way. Anyone who owns and carries a handgun is, by definition, prepared to defend themselves, their families, their fellow citizens and their property... LEGALLY.

BIG difference and BIG INFERENCE on your part... which has NO justification and no status as an arguement against LEGAL guns.

MGM... "right-thinking people everywhere". Apparently not. Fact is, Yanks don't take shit... from you or their government and that is PARTICULARLY why the USA is the land of the free and the home of the DON'T FUCK WITH ME. That is what their nation was founded on. That is their constitution. The right to peace and quiet enjoyment of life and if you fuck with that, they reserve the right to shoot your ass... when it's LEGAL AND JUSTIFIED. Their government is iffy on that one... you know... their Militia running amok in other countries (my country too, sniff)... but that's on so many other threads.

Ya know... this thread(s) is never gonna end. Fact is, I own a gun. I ain't gonna shoot you... unless you tell me you are gonna take my gun. Don't worry. I am a marksman. You won't feel a thing.

gnightgnu... have fun with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:39 PM

It's unambiguous in the sense that "not infringed" is the norm. That means further regulations must not be true infringements. If you're not a criminal, you still get to own a gun, regardless of the later-legislated paperwork and so on, as long as the paperwork doesn't infringe on your right to own one.

At least that's how I see it. One could argue that even licensing is an "infringement" of Constitutional rights, but two hundred years of reasoned opinion would seem to deny that assertion.

Not that I expect it, but a properly argued suit before the Supreme Court could conceivably change things, now or a hundred years from now. That's how the rule of law works.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: John P
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 04:46 PM

The right to peace and quiet enjoyment of life . . .

Right, with a bunch of untrained, angry idiots running around with guns in their pockets. Somehow it doesn't feel peaceful to me. So my right to peace is trumped by violent armed people? And you say they are living in peace?

If they were doing something that had no effect on other people, I would defend their right to do whatever. Guns, however, have a large impact on other people. My whole life is being infringed on by gun people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 05:01 PM

I got guns all over the place, lotsa guns, guns of every kind, and I have NEVER shot a family member or a friend in the home. Not once.

Okay, I have shot a coupla ex-friends who turned out not to be such good friends after all....but that don't count. If they was real friends, I would not have shot them.

And not once have I shot down an ex-friend in the home. No sir. Not once.

(I did shoot one of them down in the hallway once, though...he seen it comin' and he made a break for the door, so I didn't actually ventilate him proper till he was not technically in my home no longer. He was 6 feet outside the entrance door and runnin' down the 2nd floor hallway. I shot him straight through the west office wall with my tommy gun. 32 rounds. And he deserved it!)

You people who wanta take away my guns had better think twice, cos you are walkin' on very thin ice and swingin' on a vine that is just about to break.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:28 PM

""Yanks don't take shit... from you or their government and that is PARTICULARLY why the USA is the land of the free and the home of the DON'T FUCK WITH ME""

"Land of the free"....as long as you ain't Black, Hispanic, Chinese, Muslim, Native American, or Sick, and you have lots of dough!

Nothing is free in the US, and neither are a huge number of its citizens.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: number 6
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:56 PM

The following excerpt is from an interview with Canadian (yes a Canadian) folk singer, and a global enviromental/peace activist Bruce Cockburn ...

.......

King: You are or have been a handgun enthusiast and target shooter. Can a man of peace own handguns?

Cockburn: I don't want to get into a debate about gun control. In Canada it's kind of a nonissue, because we have plenty of guns, and we don't have a gun-crime problem.

I do think the Second Amendment to your Constitution is legitimate. In the context of the time in which it was written, it was entirely appropriate to make sure the populace was not going to be a pushover for a military takeover. But that was an era when the military wasn't much better equipped than the population.

In the current context you can't outgun the authorities. They've always got bigger guns. It's about knowledge and information now. So if you want to protect your constitutional right to defend yourself, the way to do it is through having enough information that you can make sound choices, and through demonstrations of the sort we've seen against the World Trade Organization and the Iraq War. An armed response to government oppression is not effective other than as an attention getter. The thing that scares them most is people knowing the truth; otherwise they wouldn't go to such lengths to keep it from us.

Personally, I think that in a democracy the authorities should not be the only ones who are armed. The best-case scenario would be if nobody was armed. But if the cops are going to have guns, then people should have them too.

The gun-control issue can distract us from more important issues, like the environment and social justice and exploitation. These problems are complicated by the presence of weapons, and that needs to be looked at, but gun control is not the biggest issue we face.
......

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: number 6
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:10 PM

Anyway ... Bruce says that ... me, I think guns aren't the problem, people are (this includes governments, corporations and the common peons) and it's not just in the U.S. A. were people are all f&%kd up, it's a phenomenon that is happening the world over ((in case you haven't noticed) ... and why are people the world over getting so wonky ... I really don't know, maybe it's the food, maybe it's the water, or something in the air, maybe the sports shoes they wear ... or more than likely it has to do with all those reality T.V. and 'what ever' idol programs.

biLL's 2 cent rant of the week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:50 PM

Yeah, John P.... Couple months ago I heard where two families had a feud and one guy had a gun... During the altercation the guy with the gun accidentally shot both his brother and his father while shooting none of the other folks they were fighting with???

BTW, the father lived but his brother wasn't so lucky...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:46 PM

Your problem isn't guns. Your problem is a terrible and growing gulf of economic disparity between the rich and the poor, massive social injustice, a decaying infrastructure, loss of traditional jobs, the busting of unions, privatization of public institutions, high unemployment, gross lack of social services, unpayable public debt, erosion of civil rights, and a corrupt government that has sold itself out to private corporate interests and banks and abdicated all social responsibility in the process.

Your problem is endemic corporate fascism run by banks and billionaires. Fascists like guns...but they don't particularly like having the guns in the hands of the ordinary public...rather, they would prefer that all firepower be in the hands of the police, the army, the private mercenaries (such as Blackwater), and the various security services (governmental and private contractors).

The various random acts of violence that occur on the part of ordinary citizens with guns will only strengthen the draconian powers of corporate fascism in a crackdown response that potentially affects everyone...therefore those incidents are actually quite convenient for promoting the general fascist program that is already underway.

When people get really scared, they tend to panic and call for "security"...and they'll let their regular civil rights be taken away with hardly a whisper of protest. That's what's been happening bit by bit ever since 911. 911 was the USA's equivalent of the Reichstag fire. It has similarly enabled a fascist takeover...one that still clothes itself in the fig leaf of a supposed 2-party "democracy".


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:30 AM

Sorry I came late to this conversation--

Lighter: I'm surprised to read that Canadians "own guns at a rate half that of the US." I remember Michael Moore, in his film *Bowling for Columbine* said the opposite: that Canadians owned more guns but had less gun violence. However, I'm pretty sure Moore was including rifles and shotguns. (More Canadians are hunters). I'll bet your figures refer only to handguns.

Another point that Moore made was that the tradition of keeping guns for self-defense became strong in the South during slavery days because whites were always afraid of slave rebellions. Also, the gangs that went out to recapture runaway slaves were armed, and guns were used to intimidate blacks during the Jim Crow era. So my guess is, there are still regional differences in gun ownership, and the northern states may be more comparable to Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:51 AM

Don
I understand your point my friend but the same can be said for drunk drivers ... careless and crazy extend to all area's of life, not just gun owners. There are responsible people, there are not responsible people that will always do harm to others regardless of the weapon. sometimes it is even a car


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:05 AM

Like anything else in life, what we need is to plug the loopholes that put dangerous things into the hands of irresponsible people. Fix the gun show law, enforce the drunk driving and texting law etc .. heck I read where I guy ran over a little kid in Texas, he was picked up five times before on drunk driving .. why did he still have a license? Well they plea bargain it down ... ya see, it is all about responsibility not weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:15 AM

The Canadian figures are here:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/facts-faits/archives/quick_facts/2011/dec-eng.htm

According to the RCMP, the 33 million Canadians own about 8 million registered guns.

According to the USDJ, in 1995, 300 million Americans owned 223 million guns:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071214070953/http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/guic.pdf

(That number is presumably higher now. It's an old document but still informative.)

Maybe you're thinking of Switzerland. Every every adult Swiss male is required by law to own an automatic weapon and ammunition for national defense. Homicides in Switzerland are rare.

Antebellum Southerners certainly were afraid of slave rebellions, and on the Frontier you'd be crazy not to have a pistol to defend yourself. But research shows that the rate of shootings in places like Dodge City and Tomstone was nothing like in the movies.

But none of these facts explains the amazingly high rate of shootings and gun homicides in the United States. I haven't checked, but I believe it began early in the 20th century. Overall rates of violent crime really took off in the '60s, but have been dropping for about twenty years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:27 AM

Lighter
it is because they are in the hands of criminals. Not to keep repeating but if a felon can go to a gun show, but 15 AK-47's and a host of handguns, take them to a city drug gang and sell them for 10 times what he paid .. the purchase was legal, the rest was not .. how can that make sense. Now you have armed a drug militia group with weapons that out gun the police ... Nothing makes sense for sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:55 AM

"the land of the free and the home of the DON'T FUCK WITH ME" - put like that - that is supposed to be a good thing? It reads more like the battle hymn of the aggressive and dangerous uneducated uncivilised yahoo.

I have a cunning plan - leave the guns alone. Put a VERY large tax on ammunition, and license the smelting of lead (all those dangerous fumes, you know).   Come to that license the manufacture of gunpowder, tax it heavily, and allow rebates for documented and proven industrial and agricultural USE. That comes within the regulation of commerce and is constitutional.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:06 AM

I don't know where you live Richard, but the people I know, grew up with are far from what you describe. I guess a lot of foreign folks hate us yanks but we are all use to it


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: pdq
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:18 AM

Don't take it seriously, Dan.

Richard "Low" Bridge hates everybody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 11:27 AM

Olddude, I believe you're correct.

On the larger question of "hating Yanks." My personal experience is that real "Yank hatred" is far less common than some Yank-hating 'Catters believe.

Let's recall too how many people from all over are trying desperately to relocate here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:07 PM

I didn't invent the quote. I only read it and pointed out what it looked and sounded like.

I admit I hate and scorn a wide range quite even-handedly. Mostly. A few more than others, like conservatives (and their brothers under the skin who we do not mention) and people who bomb civilians and oppress whole nations (or would like to) and adherents of the Gordon Gecko mindset. And those who use their religions to oppress.

But I can't be low, as you will find many to tell you I look down my nose at people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:21 PM

I live in the US and I own a couple of guns (a 12 GA pump shotgun and a 9mm bolt action carbine). I have them because I live in the middle of about 100 acres of woods where there are real dangers that occasionally need to be dealt with. If you are staunchly 100% anti-gun, then you have my permission to attempt to keep rattlesnakes out of my house and various wild and feral animals from eating my pets by reasoning with them or clubbing them with garden implements at close quarters. Personally, I'd rather shoot them from a safe distance.

I do not hunt, but I don't begrudge those who do. I feel hunting is a "necessary evil" to keep deer populations from exploding to the point where they wreak total havoc on both the natural ecosystem and most agricultural land, while on their way to eventual mass starvation. Members of the "no guns for any reason" crowd are welcome to come up with creative ways to feed Bambi and his potentially billion cousins without wrecking the economy.   

I don't see a compelling need for handguns in the hands of most private individuals. If someone feels a real need for a gun for personal protection, a shotgun is a much better choice than a handgun. It's safer in that it's probably not going to be in the drawer of one's bedside table so it's less likely to be grabbed and fired without adequate forethought. It's also far less likely to fall into the hands of children. And the sound of jacking a shell into the firing chamber of a pump shotgun will make most burglars shit their pants with no need to actually fire the thing.

I also see absolutely no need for individuals to own military style automatic or semi-automatic weapons (AKA assault rifles) other than "because they can." Assault weapons are meant to do one thing, and that is to kill human beings as efficiently as possible. They're not meant for hunting or even for personal protection, but to kill enemies.   Owning one must mean the owner thinks someone is the enemy. That equals paranoia, plain and simple, and it's a paranoia that's being fed by the NRA, gun manufacturers, and gun dealers, solely for the benefit of their pocketbooks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:43 PM

boy there are more than a few cops that shouldn't own a handgun. Some of those guys are horrible at shooting. I had a gunsmith friend in PA and the only time he ever had problems was when a sheriff came in to get a gun fixed. One guy blew a hole in his counter and other shot out his light.. I use to teach advanced shooting to the sheriff dept. some of the guys couldn't hit an elephant in the ass with a snow shovel. Agree Bee .. shotgun for most is safer


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 07:49 PM

That is very sad Richard, no way to go through life, you may want to think about huh ... just a kind suggestion. It is a lot easier and more satisfying doing good for others and being nice


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:07 PM

In the UK I'm pretty sure that pump action shotguns are off the agenda, and that seems fairly sensible. A double barrel, whether side by side or over and under, should be OK for spiders and snakes.

For things we don't have in the UK, like big cats or bears or high-foodchain dog variants, a bolt action rifle seems adequate. I'm not a stellar shot (and pretty crap with a pistol) but I used to outshoot on clay pigeon (using a horrid single barrel 12 bore Webley) some people with very expensive over and under cushion butt Japanese things, and I'm trying to remember the "rapid fire" routine I had to do with a bolt action rifle to get my "marksman" badge in the school corps.

Now my nutty mate who used to shoot for the Navy at Bisley - he's different. I think he was 9 when his grandfather took him into the back garden to teach him how to shoot German invaders with a Lee Enfield 303. The war had been over for over 12 years but grandpa forgot that. He later was one of a very select group of special snipers for Mrs Kween, one of those people with a special relationship with wind and temperature variation for very very long range shooting. He was just as deadly with a handgun. His brother in-law was competitive at Welsh national level with a target pistol, but said nutty mate could halve his group diameter with a gun he'd never seen before.

The point of the story is that I'm not kneejerk antigun.

But there is absolutely no legitimate reason for a civilian to carry a multiple-fire weapon or a handgun - or even to have one for use other than a handgun for competition use on the target range (in which case it should be locked up at the gun club) for the very simple reason that their only purpose is to kill people. That in turn can only be justified if you think that might is right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Songwronger
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:34 PM

Long thread, maybe this has been mentioned, but the main difference between the US and UK is that the US fought a war to throw off the tyranny of the monarchs. Then our founders enshrined in our founding document certain protections. One of those protections is a reminder (in the 2nd Amendment to the constitution), that people have the right to bear arms.

The founders knew that another tyranny would spring up in the US if safeguards weren't put in place. Guns in America are to be used by the citizenry against tyranny. Unfortunately that's rarely taught. The dialogue gets refocused on "hunting" and "sport" and things like that. A shame, because our government will cajole us out of our guns if it can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 08:56 PM

First of all, I agree with my ol' friend, Beezer... No need for handguns and assault weapons...

As for the government taking away guns??? I seriously doubt that...

I'd like to see the government furnish a long rifle to anyone who is willing to learn how to use it safely and be part of a well regulated militia...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: olddude
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:13 PM

won't make ya safer bro, lots of the bad shooting are done by gangs with the AK-47 or the Bushmaster AR ...

A weapon is a weapon .. we really need a federal carry standard and the gun show limitations. The border agents are getting wacked from Mexico by the drug folks using our own weapons. On 20 20 TV show they showed how easy it was, but them, disassemble, put them in a bag and walk over the border crossing no questions. One lady got caught (one of the few) because she has so much ammo and weapons she could not carry the bag. In Mexico all firearms are illegal ... look how well that works for them


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Songwronger
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:53 PM

So if law-abiding Americans voluntarily limit their access to guns, will criminals limit THEIR access? We all know the answer to that.

And you have to take into consideration that the criminals in the gun game include Eric Holder, U.S. Attorney General. He's been running guns into Mexico in order to demonize the "gun show loophole."

Simple fact is that big government wants to own you. The dead Jews in Hitler's Germany could tell you how that ends up.

An armed America is a safe America. Deny guns to felons, leave the rest alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: John P
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 11:55 PM

Legalizing drugs would go a long toward easing gun violence. At least we wouldn't have gang wars and people who need to raise $100 a day for their habit. Why didn't we learn anything from the Prohibition? Gun violence galore, and we're just doing it again.

Speaking of cops who shouldn't have guns, one of the children that was killed here recently was shot by her brother with their police officer father's gun. The kids and the loaded gun were were in the car. The parents weren't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:27 AM

Songwronger - do you really believe that a bunch of survivalist nutters can outgun the military that gave us the phrase "shock and awe"? Do you really believe that they can outgun any invading military (if the US military has tried and failed)? It would be a romantic but dangerous illusion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 09:37 AM

A long rifle and an AK47 aren't the same beast...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 09:57 AM

Richard Bridge .... the Iraqi and Afghani rebels have given the 'shock and awe' military boys a good run for their money.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:16 AM

Not in their capacities as invading armies - in their capacities as hamstrung peacekeepers. And not with handguns, but with roadside bombs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 11:17 AM

PS - same as the IRA used against UK military.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 09:51 AM

One more case:

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/311679/28/Iraq-War-veteran-killed-widow-says-Floridas-Stand-Your-Ground-law-is-free-pass-for-mu


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Crowhugger
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:11 AM

With the caveat that this is vast generalization: I think the chief difference between Canadian and American behaviour with gun laws goes back to a difference in what rights are top of the hierarchy. In the US it's individual rights, in Canada, group rights. The Canadian Constitution clearly limits individual rights to what is reasonable in a free and democratic society. Given that the Canadian Constitution is just 30-something years old, the courts are still working out what that means in different situations. But generally speaking they seem slightly more willing to limit personal freedom than courts in the US. It only takes a small difference in wording of laws and their interpretation to have a big effect on society. I say this not as a lawyer but as a more or less informed citizen.

There is an element of chicken and egg in this effect, since it was Canadians who drafted the constitution to begin with and Canadians who interpret it and who are then bound by those interpretations, and write new laws that fit within its framework.

The difference between US and Canadian gun policy may be explained a lot by history. In terms of need for guns in the settlement of the Canadian west there are three factors that created a tremendously different settlement culture here compared to the US.

1. Canada's northwest (what is now Ontario north and west of Georgian Bay & Lake Superior, the prairies, and BC apart from Victoria and Vancouver) was not significantly settled until the Canadian Pacific Railroad (CPR) was built 1880-1885. By that time European diseases brought by a scant population of missionaries and fur traders had decimated the original populations. Enormous buffalo hunts had very nearly decimated that population--buffalo were virtually extinct by the time The Railway (see #2) was completed in 1885. By the time Canada was settling the prairies, original populations were in a weakened state from starvation and European disease; they also knew what usurping of land had occured in the USA but were far less able to resist. Their chief food supply was so vastly dwindled that during the time of railroad building and soon after, many reluctantly but of necessity moved onto reserves where they would at least have basic food and shelter, if not health and dignity--buffalo were no longer a reliable way to provide for one's family and tribe.

2. During railway construction is precisely when Canada's west began to be settled beyond a few bone-mashing cart tracks between fur trading posts and a few adventuresome naturalists, homesteaders especially along the Red River, and wannabe miners. The Canadian Pacific Railway (CPR) controlled the rules within 20 miles either side of the track and they had their own enforcers to limit employees' and service providers' participation in vices. The majority of navvies (labourers) were either recently decended from Europeans, majority from UK, or were directly from the UK. A smaller number were from other parts of Europe.

3. The British ideas of law and order formed the basis for the North West Mounted Police during this era. This force was in place as the west was being settled, with little tolerance for the American style "wild west."

Putting together those three uniquely Canadian conditions of western settlement:
The majority of the End of Track population, as that tent settlement moved across the prairie, would naturally have within it largely British assumptions about guns. Add to that the fact that original populations and their food supply were decimated by that time, there wasn't the extent of warring resistance that marks stories of the "wild west" of the US.

It's only in the last 30 years or so that Canada has begun to develop a self separate from its British roots rather than exactly in their image. Canada was extremely British at the time the fundamentals of the country were put together and for a long time afterwards. Our gun culture reflects that. And lately, urban gun culture reflects growing drug and gang crime.

I couldn't say which gun policy approach is better, only which one I'm used to and therefore comfortable with: The one in which I grew up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: pdq
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 11:26 AM

Crowhugger...

No offense, but you use "decimated" way too often, especially since you do not really know what it means. Think 10% and military.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 07:15 PM

""but the main difference between the US and UK is that the US fought a war to throw off the tyranny of the monarchs.""

I guess your history lessons stopped short of the English Civil War and the overthrow of the monarch by Oliver Cromwell, the reason why we are a constitutional monarchy?

So many assumptions, so many wrong.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Mr Happy
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 07:48 AM

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/03/23/indiana-governor-signs-bill-allowing-citizens-to-use-deadly-force-against-police-officer


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 08:53 AM

My poem on this - "Monopoly ".


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 09:32 AM

Mr Happy - that IS a satire, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Crowhugger
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 09:37 AM

pdq, decimated no decimated offence decimated taken. Decimated.

FWIW, in my post above it'll help to read "decimated" in the colloquial sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 10:41 AM

... the US fought a war to throw off the tyranny of the monarchs.

Not quite - See Charles Beard's An Economic Interpretation of the Constitution...


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: meself
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 10:47 AM

Good summary of a lot of history, Cr. A couple of quibbles/comments:

- What you're referring to as our "constitution" is of course the Charter of Rights. Our "constitution" is the British North America Act of 1867.

- The British and Canadian governments learned from the example of the settling of the American west - they were determined to avoid the kind of violence and lawlessness that had been so prevalent there; hence, the creation of the North-West Mounted Police, the urgency of treaty-making, establishment of administrative bureaucracy and procedure, etc. Without the American object lesson, it all might have been much messier.

- I'm not sure "British assumptions about guns" were vastly different from the corresponding American attitudes in the era in question. Interestingly, in towns like Dodge City and Tombstone - mentioned above - in that mythological Golden Age of American freedom and rugged individualism, there were what would today be considered intolerable restrictions regarding firearms - you weren't allowed to carry them. In fact, that was one of the catalysts of the infamous Shoot-out at the Okay Corral: the 'bad guys' were carrying their guns within town limits. (Caveat: I don't claim to be any kind of authority on any of that Wild West stuff; I've just picked up a bit from reading and watching documentaries).


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Crowhugger
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 02:46 PM

Oops, yup "Charter of Rights and Freedoms." BTW, has anyone else noticed we failed to include "responsibilities" in that title?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Crowhugger
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 02:55 PM

Yes, the Canadian & British gov'ts intended to avoid the degree of violence seen in the USA and used the tools pdq mentions: treaties, programs. Also I think they were actually able to carry out that intention because of the drastically weakened state, by the late 1800s, of the original inhabitants of the areas being settled. Had those communities been strong enough to mount a serious resistance, do I really believe Canada would not have pushed the railway and settlement through, rather that it would have left the west to be annexed by more willing gunslingers from the US? No I don't believe that. So maybe the different gun culture here is a matter of dumb luck, that we were able to settle the west with less violence so it became a different reality? Just musing, not saying it's so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 08:13 PM

Don't forget Louis Riel. US bootleggers supplied whisky from Ft. Benton, MT to Canadians who sold it to the Indians. US and Canadian ranchers worked quite well together in stealing and disposing of stolen horses, some of which were sold to the RCMP. In 1876 it was, for a time, debatable whether or not the Canadian government would allow Sitting Bull and his people to stay in Canada for any length of time, and the same was true when Chief Joseph and the Nez Perce headed north in 1878. No nation on Earth is innocent or even "Not Guilty" of doing bad things to their own or other people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Songwronger
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 11:04 PM

Interesting digressions. Do they teach in English schools that the lunatic Cromwell was some kind of savior? And if he got rid of the monarchy, how come that old hag is squatting in Buckingham Palace?

The U.S. consititutions' Bill of Rights sets it apart from other constitutions. I'm familiar with Beard's work, and he's right--the founding fathers basically rebelled over taxes, and most of them ended up as the wealthiest men in the new nation. And there was a danger of them becoming a new monarchy, so that's why people like Patrick Henry, George Mason and others insisted on a Bill of Rights. Jefferson. The Bill of Rights limits what government (and the people running it) can do.

Other constitutions "grant" people rights, which is ludicrous. Those aren't rights, they're privileges. The U.S. Bill of Rights says we're born with unlimited freedom, and government can't take that away, except in very narrow circumstances.

Canada's Charter. Pierre Trudeau basically pulled that thing out of his ass, as I recall. It limits individual rights from the outset while it uses words like rights and freedom and democracy in order to make people think it's something it's not. At any rate, in the U.S. you have rights until you sign them away or lose them through abuse. Not so in other countries. And this is why the U.S. is so dangerous to the totalitarian globalization movement.

What else? Do I think guns will stop a shock and awe campaign? Who was that? Richard Bridge. Talks about "survivalist nutters." Boy are you off the mark. Every adult I know has a gun. Women carry them in purses and under car seats, and men teach the kids how to use them. This is a gun culture, not a bunch of survivalist nutters. And crime rates are next to nothing where I live. I pity the chumps who have to use baseball bats for home invasions. Look at the shooter in France the other day. He had 8 guns, in a country where it's DAMNED hard to get guns. Criminals will always have guns, so you need them too.

And yes, I think 200 million guns will make an invading force nervous. More nervous than 200 million baseball bats.

This horse is pulverized.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 04:11 AM

The English Civil War deposed a monarch who had refused to compromise with the demands of Parliament. The republican experiment failed, for a number of reasons, and the monarchy was welcomed back. However the powers of the monarchy were renegotiated and have continued to be renegotiated ever since, until we reach the present day where the monarch has very little political power.

The UK at the end of the 19th Century was also a violent culture where people often went armed for their own protection. Somewhere along the way that changed (was it perhaps a reaction to two world wars?) and the UK, along with most European countries, allowed themselves to be disarmed. Yes, it's true that some of the criminals still have guns, but they seem to be largely confined to gangs and drug dealers who mainly use them against each other. As an ordinary citizen of the UK, I don't feel threatened by criminals with guns and I don't feel the need to arm myself against them. I think this is the attitude of most people here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 05:03 AM

Somewhere above is quoted "I read in the newspapers:"

I read in the paper last week that a gun in the home is four times more likely to be used on a friend or family member that to be used defending the home against invasion.

That specific statement originated in a specific known article by ONE known radical anti-everything NUT. It has been thoroughly disproven by multiple other sources using official data from national, state, and in many cases local levels.

In a recent "news broadcast" a person who was trying to explain the "health act" to a panel of .... who kept trying to outshout him with the usual trite slogans, finally was asked "Why doesn't Obama just explain it."

I thought his answer was quite to the point, as near as I can recall:

"It's complicated, and a two sentence explanation always loses to a one sentence LIE."

I'm afraid he's right.

(So far as I caught, he was a spokesman for one of several agencies involved in implementing the law, but I didn't get the impression he was representing a Party affiliation, for or against either party.)

As to a handgun only being of use for target shooting, I've hunted about as successfully, although less frequently, with a handgun as with a long gun, although I've used both depending on which was appropriate. Longbows (usually compound to meet draw limits) and less frequently crossbows are legal for hunting in many places her.

And those last three times I mentioned shooting within the past dozen years (a long way back in the thread) were with a handgun, because it was most appropriate to the requirement at hand - which had nothing to do with shooting anything but a couple of probably rabid wild animals that attacked our pets and refused to withdraw when given the opportunity and encouragement to do so.

(In one case I had to send the kid (30 years old) back to get the .22 short when he tried to bring me the .357 Mag. I didn't think I needed all that firepower even for a very fierce 'possum.) Even the .22 short has a potential range of about a half mile, and I've seen ricochets of around 100 yards, when fired from a rifle. From a .22 short pistol with a 2-1/4 inch barrel you don't have to worry about going through the boards in the privacy fence even if you shot straight at them. (I've tested it on some spare boards, and on some other "barriers" for every gun I've owned, because you must know the risks involved in every use of any power tool (even a gun).)

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: John P
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 10:45 AM

"I read in the paper last week that a gun in the home is four times more likely to be used on a friend or family member that to be used defending the home against invasion."

That specific statement originated in a specific known article by ONE known radical anti-everything NUT. It has been thoroughly disproven by multiple other sources using official data from national, state, and in many cases local levels.


Are these the radical nuts you refer to?

New England Journal of Medicine:
Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home

American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine:
Risks and Benefits of a Gun in the Home

American Journal of Epidemiology:
Guns in the Home and Risk of a Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: meself
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 11:09 AM

"in the U.S. you have rights until you sign them away or lose them through abuse. Not so in other countries."

Nonsense.


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Subject: Speaking of Riel
From: Crowhugger
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 05:29 PM

Sort of thread drift, but sort of not as details are clarified & fleshed out about the differences in settling the Canadian vs US west.

Rap, yes there was Riel. Twice in fact. I'm not saying there was no blood, not at all. But I think the fact that there's one notable resistance story in Canada and many in the US makes my point about the much smaller need for armed militia in Canada; this even though the 2nd Riel uprising was what turned the Canadian political tide in favour of guaranteeing operating loans during the final year of construction of the Canadian Pacific Railroad. [my apology for that verrrrry long sentence!] By early to mid-1885 Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition was vehemently against extending any more loan guarantees (with some good reasons) and it regularly threatened a non-confidence vote against Sir John A's minority parliament.

Were it not for Riel and the need to get an army to Manitoba post haste, plus the experience of Riel's 1st rebellion when it took several weeks to transport militiamen from the east by laker, canoe, on foot and Red River Cart--were it not for all that, the bill in front of parliament to extend the operating loans would almost surely not have passed and MacDonald's 2nd government would have fallen to a non-confidence vote. With all sources of funding exhausted and more, with the Canadian economy doing poorly, with all CPR investor goodwill already over-extended and with most navvies being 2-4 months behind in receiving pay, the CPR almost surely could not have met its debt obligations in the summer of 1885. Both the CPR and probably the Bank of Montreal would have gone bust without the additional loan guarantees.

Had all that happened, Canada's already weak economy would have suffered a vicious blow because in addition to its backlogged payroll the railway owed thousands of suppliers many millions of dollars. If the CPR had gone bust, and if the Canadian government had not moved in to finish the railway, the map of North America would probably look very, very different today; the fertile belt of the prairies nortg of 49 would probably be US territory.

As it happened, of course, all that did not come to pass, the bill for more loans did pass and people of mostly British descent and loyalty settled what is now the Canadian prairies.

Is it possible that those who settled the Canadian prairie, being comfortable with monarchy, were more willing than republicans to the south to be governed by a paternalistic, strong central body? Might that be part of the root of the difference in gun culture? I have no idea.

Aside: I find it interesting to note that the one notable Canadian resistor of European settlement represented people not living a FN lifestyle but Metis farmers? Perhaps thanks to their half-European background they had a better understanding of what the Europeans really intended by settling the west.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 07:07 PM

And that is a very interesting chunk of Canadian history. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 08:28 PM

I'll second that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: meself
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 08:46 PM

I'll third that - good work, Crowhugger! (Um - do you really hug crows?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Crowhugger
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 03:25 PM

You're all welcome. The long version of that very general synopsis above may be found in the latter chapters of Pierre Berton's The Last Spike. I found that book and his The National Dream both very gripping--I could hardly put them down and I kept wishing I was a screen writer. I kept seeing dozens of TV seasons-worth of material as I read. IMO both books should be required reading for all Canadian school kids, maybe in early high school.

No, meself, not physically. My crow hugging is entirely metaphorical. They're pretty good at raising young in partnership, highly intelligent and adaptable; I find them interesting and in many ways admirable. The name is also a throwback to a time when, as an pre-and early teen sleeping out in the back yard, I really liked trying to follow the conversations within a nearby flock of crows, which back and forth began about 45 minutes before the first speck of daylight and by sun-up was full cacaphony.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 05:29 PM

Lachine, Quebec; Dartmouth, NS; Kugluktuk, Nunavut; Cypress Hills, Saskatchewan; Lucan Biddulph, Ontario; Aroostook War; Nicola's War; Courthouse Rebellion; Montreal Riots; Stony Monday Riot; Fraser Canyon Gold Rush skirmishes; Fraser Canyon War; McGowan's War; Pig War; Lamalcha War; Chilcotin War; "Kingfisher" Incident; Upper and Lower Ontario...to last year's Stanley Cup affairs, to name a few (I deliberately chose most from the 19th Century and in which the US was only peripherally involved if at all).

As I said before, no nation is without its shames, but the US hardly stands alone as the Vancouver gang wars currently demonstrate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 06:35 PM

With guns not going anywhere, one helpful idea might be vigorous educational campaigns on gun safety, civic responsibility, and anger management.

Not saying it would work, but it's better than continual yelling, on either side, about banning guns.

Real criminals won't care, but they're beyond rational gun control anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: bobad
Date: 27 Mar 12 - 06:40 PM

"Lachine, Quebec"

That's my home town Rap, quite an interesting history associated with it. Check out how it was named.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 01:16 PM

4 hours ago in Canada


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 01:26 PM

I think everyone should have to carry a .50 cal Barrett if they want to carry a firearm. After toting that beast around no one would want to do it. Heaviest damn gun on the planet and no worries about concealing it either :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 01:53 PM

Why stop there, Dan? I think everyone should have a Finnish 20 mm Lahti L-39 anti-tank rifle, not your little pissant .50 cal.

Plus, it would create jobs if they put the Lahti back into production.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 01:57 PM

Greg
even better idea I like that


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 02:00 PM

Ever shoot a 50 barrett, a pleasure it is not ... even with built in recoil spring it kicks like a horse on spurs .. and the boom is no fun either ... and at 10 bucks a round why the hell would anyone want one but I know many who do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 02:16 PM

Well, I am torn. I would have been WHOLEheartedly in favour of our "new" gun laws if certain portions of the act were written differently because they abet criminals and put Canucks in danger(and, no, I shant repeat my qualms for the 100th time). I read of yet another violent home invasion in the paper today.

But, I am still 3/4sheartedly in favour of the registry. The other 1/4 is my fear of government. It was to be a one-time registration but twice they have asked me to re-register my guns (five year intervals) and pay them to do it. Each time, I sent a registered letter, witnessed by a lawyer, to them saying there were no changes and the info they had on file should be sent to me for verifiction. I also asked that the next letter they sent to me be signed and dated instead of a form letter with NO signature and NO date. Never heard back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 02:19 PM

My views exactly, Bee-Dubya-ell...


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 05:21 PM

When threads are revived, they go funny places sometimes.

Do we need a thread called "Guns & laws in Canada"?

I do know that I would 'prefer' that firearms 'experts' would start one specifically to trade jokes and repartee about specific makes & models unless it has direct bearing on the topic.

(what?..hmmm? "fat chance"?....oh...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 05:46 PM

I dunno, Bill. What sayest thou?

Personally, I don't think we need one. If anyone wants to know about Canuck gun laws, they can Google em.

All I was doing was reporting what's on the go here at the moment... up to date... breaking news... on an existing thread rather than starting a new one. After all, this thread died about three weeks ago so I can't see my post as an impostion???


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 06:11 PM

*grin*...except that in anticipation of something new about the topic, pedantic 'ol ME read the last 20-30 posts above to prepare myself.

Yes.. I know I oughta skip to the bottom to see what's going on...but....


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 06:43 PM

What puzzles me from a distance is why your NRA appears to be so opposed to what sound like very sensible gun controls which would be very much in the interests of any sensible gun owner.

It's as if our Automobile Association was dedicated to abolishing all speed limits and opposed to driving tests and driving licences.

I'd have thought that an organisation representing gun owners would be leading advocates for stuff like that.

The logical conclusion from the slogan "guns don't kill people - people kill people" ought surely to be to do eveything possible to stop guns getting into the hands of people who can't be trusted to use them responsibly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 08:05 PM

Mcgrath

In the 60's and 70's the NRA was all about sportsmen, it was about conservation, about gun safety and nothing but good stuff. I was a member then. It was safe hunting, target shooting, wetland conservation. It was a fine organization. Then something happened, they went nuts in my opinion, the dug in their heels in and decided that no gun law was any good ... that is when I left holding my nose. I don't know what happened to that organization. They use to be very good, now they all went mad for some reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 08:15 PM

they use to have meetings, show kids how to call a turkey during spring gobbler season, run skeet shooting events ... everything was about the sportsman .. Handguns, they use to talk that the sheriff and judge decide who can get a permit and who shouldn't. They left that stuff alone ... now everything they were they are no longer in my opinion so I have nothing to do with them


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 08:29 PM

This is not your grand dad's NRA... This NRA wants more people murdered because...

...it sells more guns...

I, too, learned gun safety from the NRA... I was in an NRA shoot club when I was a youngin'... No one ever talked politics... No one...

Screw the NRA... They contribute to the violence in my country in a big, big way... Their bullshit makes everyone less safe...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 08:40 PM

Why did the NRA go apeshit? It's very simple. The anti-gun nuts went apeshit and demanded "no guns" so the NRA decided to oppose EVERY SINGLE piece of proposed legislation as a matter of course in their own defence.

It ain't rocket science. When an "opponent" says they are gonna take you out you do what you have to to defend yourself. The NRA was, as Dan says, a great organization that promoted gun safety and so on... but, when faced with a bunch of anti gun nuts who were illogical and wanted to take their LEGAL guns away, they assessed their position and decided the only way to fight these assholes was a zero tolerance response. I may not agree (my memberships have lapsed too) but I understand.

Seriously, to say the NRA has gone "nuts" is to disregard their obviously expected response to the real "nuts". If the anti gun nuts were reasonable and logical, I believe the NRA could be their allies but the anti gun nuts are just plain illogical, have little knowledge of the many situations of gun ownership and so on and so on as has been said on threads in the Mudcat soooo many times before... they just don't understand and they just don't listen. They hide behind vague statistics with vague correlations and speak with emotions rather than facts and logic and make unreasonable demands upon legal and resposible gun owners based on spreading fear and lies. They know nothing about living in the backwoods.

I am gonna stop now. It's all been said and done so many times.

Fact is, I applaud Canada's gun laws even tho I disagree with some of them. I am appalled by the lack of such gun laws in the US. BUT, I am TRULY appalled by the gun laws proposed by the anti gun nuts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 08:44 PM

Gnu is probably right, they then decided to go on the offense and oppose every gun law regardless ... but they would gain more memebers and more respect if they migrated back to the sportsman and said yes to the laws that make sense "like gun show restrictions" but like the republican party of late, they ain't my daddy's organization anymore


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 08:50 PM

I don't remember the anti-gun folks going apeshit... When did this happen, gn-ze??? Maybe I missed it??? Nah... It never happened...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 09:06 PM

Actually Bobster Gnu is right. They tried to pass laws to register ammo without understanding the serious shooter like myself load our own. Successfully got certain type of ammo like the black talon off the market (black talon is just a hollow point with a scary name) like the billion others no more dangerous then any other bullet and does not go through kelvar vests .. They tried to ban semi auto shotguns that every duck hunter on the planet likes to use .. so yea they did try a lot of stuff that didn't make sense ... however, digging their heels in on the gun shows makes no sense to any sportsman I think. So their approach is no law .. it is all nuts actually. Why don't the politician simply ask the sportsman to educated them before passing another law that makes no one safer. There are plenty of laws that we need that do make sense ... don't get it


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 09:14 PM

back in the 1980's they passed some law about Saturday night cheap conceal carry gun or put pressure on the gun manufacturers can't remember if it was a law or just pressure. Anyway the put the colt .380 government model on the list and colt stop making them. Why , because it was easy to conceal ... how does that make sense. The colt .380 is one of the backup firearms every cop wishes he had. I own one. And it ain't cheap by any means (expensive gun) but it is no more concealable then any other small handgun so why was it singled out .. who the hell knows. It is stuff like this that makes no sense. They need to pass well thought out laws not knee jerk ones ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 09:19 PM

Those aren't anti-gun, ol'ster... That's called regulation... We regulate every thing else... It's no unreasonable to regulate who owns guns... I mean, if you can't shoot straight then you shouldn't own a f'n gun...

Here in NC a guy, trying to shoot someone else, shot and killed his own father...

Reasonable regulations isn't anti-gun...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 09:29 PM

my point my brother is I complete agree with you on reasonable regulations. I am 100% with ya. But for example passing a law to ban the black talon ammo but allow the hydro-shock .. is insane. The black talon was the hydro-shock with a coat of black paint on them .. you see, they have to think through their law process and they don't. Yet things we really need addressed like that "gun show stuff" continues ... I want to see real things addressed not the smoke and mirrors stuff. So the NRA says you guys don't know what you are doing and then go after all laws even ones that make sense ... both of them are dead wrong ... that is why I left the NRA


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 09:29 PM

BTW, 100,000 Americans were shot last year... This is out of control and the NRA is loving it...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 09:34 PM

Who cares about ammo??? I think we need to sell lots of guns but make ammo illegal... lol...

Seriously, the real regs should include gun safety training requirement to own a gun and to register your guns... Big deal...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 09:44 PM

Exactly my brother, see that is what's needed not this other meaningless shit ... I think the powers in charge think if they pass a meaningless law that protects no one they can tell their voters they are with them, and then tell the NRA that what's the problem ... playing both sides i think ... forget the NRA , pass laws that make us safer and not the useless shit


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 09:46 PM

Bobert... "Reasonable regulations isn't anti-gun..."

I thought I made that clear.

What I protest is the anti gun nuts who want all guns gone. When did that happen you ask, Bobert? Started on December 6, 1989 here in Canada. It was horrible. 14 women dead at the hand of Marc Lepine. The "Montreal Massacre". He gunned 14 innocent women down because he was, well, nuts.

The gun laws that resulted from that terrible day are good for the most part. But, some of those laws are NOT good and they abet criminals.

Okay. This has been done many times before, as I said before so i will summrize and leave.

I disagree with the NRA but I understand why they do what they do.

I diagree with scrapping our gun registry but I understnd why Steven Harper is doing it. Zero tolerance of the anti gun nuts because they have zero tolerance for and zero knowledge of guns and the people who legally own them and use them for legal purposes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 09:49 PM

Well, gn-ze... Never happened here in the US of A...

BTW, ya'll have sane regs...

We have virtually no regs...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 09:51 PM

I MUST take issue with gnu and olddude and agree with Bobert.

Of course there are always those who want to "get rid of" all guns. But we all knew that was not gonna happen. There was NO serious, major campaign by any organized group to ban all guns. No one "went nuts" except the Wayne LaPierre's of the country. They adopted the "slippery slope" argument, claiming that 'if we let them limit THIS, they'll soon be back for THAT'. I must assume that many of them actually believe that, but many simply see it as a clever approach.


As I type, Rachael Maddow's show is listing dozens of gun deaths occurring all over the country this week, as well as all the gun deaths that happened in St. Louis the last few days as the NRA was meeting downtown. (I believe it will be available online soon). When you treat it as an abstract set of statistics, it just becomes another list.... but when you hear each one described in detail, as people who should never have guns to begin with strap on an arsenal and go "get even" or "avenge" something...or just rob a bank and shoot anyone in the way.

I find it disingenuous to lay the current problem at the feet of ANTI-gun nuts! Some of you have noted the problem with gun shows, where few restrictions are enforced and guns in bulk are purchased by anyone with $$$$.......but are any of you who want to retain the right to own firearms doing ANYTHING to help educate or make sense of the lax laws that keep the horrible headlines going?
How many more bodies will it take before the majority decide to BECOME anti-gun nuts and write laws that could have been avoided? My friends, the "slippery slope" argument, flawed though it is, works both ways! *IF* gun violence keeps mounting and the list of dead kids & cops gets too long, there WILL be a push back... and it will not be pretty!
I firmly believe that owning and 'playing with' firearms (the stuff beyond hunting) helps advance the mystique and create the IDEA that "it's ok if we keep guns out of the hands of kids & criminals"....ignoring the fact that IF hundreds of millions of guns are available, we cannot keep them from the wrong people!

What will you do...this year... to begin to ease the situation? I am finding out which legislators are 'owned' by the NRA. (In my area, most of them are fairly reasonable... but some of you live where a letter writing campaign could DO something!

Statistics say that while I typed this..(20 minutes) many people were injured and several killed by stupid use of guns! I am tired of that truth going on all day long...every day!


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:08 PM

Exactly, Bill...

To anyone who thinks that there are restrictions on guns in any way, manner or form consider this...

If Charles Manson had made parole this week he could have backed up a U-Haul truck to a gun show in Richmond, Va. and filled it up with AK47s, all the ammo he wanted and...

... a step-by-step instruction book on how to make them fully automatic...

BTW, 5 cops were shot today...

BTW, 100,000 other Americans will get shot this year...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:14 PM

2 minutes drive from me there is a gun store where purchases are scrutinized carefully.

One hours drive from me is a convention center where my usual woodworking show was cancelled this year because a major GUN SHOW offered them much more money......


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:23 PM

I think we are talking about the same thing Bill, I agree with you. My point is they keep passing useless laws and walk away from laws that would make us safer and would make sense. A federal conceal carry law instead of this hap hazard state by state ordeal. The gun show insanity ... The law abiding person is not shooting people. The drug gangs and other criminals are ... what we need to do it make it harder for them to get firearms. shutting down the gun show loophole would go a long way. Banning a colt .380 would not in any manner help since there are 1000 other guns even more concealable .. see what I am saying or are you guys missing my point. I am not for the NRA at all I only agree that they say no to every law because so many meaningless ones have been passed, now they fight everything including those that would make sense


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:26 PM

Sad commentary, Bill...

The NRA wrote every "stand your ground" law in America because they knew it would be big $$$ for them and their members...

Meanwhile, arts and crafts people get pushed aside to accommodate the NRA's agenda...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:33 PM

I agree with you two completely.   But here is something that drove me nuts. Charles Shummer from NY started a bill a few years back to "put a serial number on every bullet so we can trace who bought them" That is the dumbest thing I ever heard. First of all bullets fragment, the US has stockpiles of ammo in damn near every house, and every shooter makes his own. A bill that serves nothing helps nothing protect nothing. But try to get the guy to sponsor a bill to stop illegal gun trade at gun shows .. no one wants to talk about that, NRA will come after them. grow some ball and do things right I say to the politicians and you will see the death rate decline. It is not shooter or sportsman that is killing people , doing drive by shooting. Where do those guys get their weapons .. gun shows


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:35 PM

and guys like him that want to sponsor such a bill like I described on the ammo are what gnu and I would call anti gun nuts .. because they understand nothing and do nothing to make folks safer. Talk to law enforment, they will give you ideas on what regs we need and to a man they will say "gun shows"


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: saulgoldie
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:41 PM

Whatever we think or feel about "gun rights," the fact remains that a disproportionate amount of the public discourse is spent on it to the detriment of much more important issues like health care, education, the national infrastructure, the state of the military, and how and what we are going to pay for and how we are going to do it. The day to day implications of "gun rights" are vastly eclipsed by these other truly *important* issues. Although it does make for fun barroom conversations. 'Spcially when it's half-price night in an "open carry" state. WaHOOwah!

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:44 PM

and don't get me started on training ... there is such a lack of it anymore ... I was watching the amazing race. Two girls both FBI agents. One was talking how her friend helped her after she shot herself in the leg with her glock ... For God sakes, the first thing with that weapon .. never touch the f'in trigger while holstering it .. she should not be allowed to ever have a weapon again and she is an FBI agent ... yes we need to pass training laws but again the politicians won't grow the balls to pass sensible laws but want to ban a colt .380


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:45 PM

Speaking at the National Rifle Association's (NRA) annual conference today, Republican presidential hopeful Newt Gingrich advocated for extending the rights of the second amendment — which refer to the "right to bear arms" — beyond U.S. borders and, indeed, to the population of the entire world.

The former Speaker of the House offered some friendly criticism to the NRA's leadership, accusing them of being "too timid," before launching into a proposal for a new U.N. treaty guaranteeing a universal right to gun ownership, he explained:
A Gingrich presidency will submit to the United Nations a treaty that extends the right to bear arms as a human right for every person on the planet because every person on the planet deserves the right to defend themselves from those who would oppress them, those would exploit them, rape them or kill them.

-- ThinkProgress

Oy.

~ Becky in Long Beach


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:50 PM

Yo, Ol'ster... Go back and reread your posts... You say that you agree with Bill and me but then there's the "but" word... That tells me that you don't agree with Bill or me, at all...

Saul is correct... The NRA gins up this same old shit every election... There are no regs... Fuck this phony issue by the the NRA and the Republican Party... There are no regs... None... The NRA wins this one every time because of one reason: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$....

Do we need 'um??? Ask the 100,000 people who will be shot this year...

Please, ol'ster... No more NRA propaganda... Lets just agree to disagree but no more "I agree with ya'll but's..."

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 11:20 PM

"There was NO serious, major campaign by any organized group to ban all guns."

True... they were just laying the groundwork. Do you read my posts? Do you really understand why the NRA does what it does? or do you just see them as a bunch of nut cases? *I* disagree with their policies but *I* understand WHY they do what they do. Apparently, few of you understand them and their policies AND WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY.

The posts citing me as saying what I did not say are tedious and trying, to say the least.

It's like talking to a gun. Guns can't think. People can... well, some can.

Anyway... no matter. Crime will flourish as long as the gun nuts on both sides ignore the real reasons for gun related crime. And it's got two fifths of five eigths of fuck all to do with legal gun ownership.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 11:29 PM

I don't understand why the NRA does what it does, gn-ze...

There has been no push to ban guns, register guns,k force people to have safety training...

Nothing, zero, nada, zip...

The NRA gins up this phony crap every election... Sell$$$$$$$$$$$ gun$$$$$$$$$$$... That is what the NRA is about...

Make no bone$$$$$$$$$$$$ about it... Thi$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.....

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 11:31 PM

LOL ok bobster BUTTTTT

lets just say, more training and get rid of gun shows do we agree on that LOL

Pigheaded hillybilly but I love ya tee hee


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 11:36 PM

LOL ok hillybilly I am partially right and you are partially right hows that? Even if you are wrong :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 11:45 PM

and bobster I think we gotta pass some regs on those guitars with the chevy hub cap on em .... (had to do that sorry can't stop laughing)

ya old hillbilly you :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 11:49 PM

Ok here is the deal, Let me take you and bill shooting with me. Next thing ya khow, you will be buying your own glock and poping holes in paper .. deal? It is fun I am here to tell ya and safer then driving a car really


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: open mike
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 12:57 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: open mike
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 01:00 AM

I just heard about an unidentified ATF agent in Alaska who has been asking gun shops for their sales records. These records are suposed to be made available in the case of a specific incident or investigation. The agent apparently got some shops to turn over their records, but another shop refused to...as this is not appropriate. http://www.guns.com/alaska-gun-shop-atf-strange-request-form-4473-7072.html
There is a difference between sales records and registration records.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: saulgoldie
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:51 AM

Long time ago, somewhere about round 346 of this discussion, I read a piece about training and outlook towards guns. He said, "There is no such thing as a toy gun."

Think about it...every cap pistol, every toy that looks like a 45 or a 357 magnum, every squirt gun, every stick pointed at someone, every hand in the shape of an "L" is a REAL gun. And if you point it at anyone, you can hurt them very badly.

I think that the reality of it is that guns will, at least for the foreseeable future and the rest of many of our lives will be a presence. So acquiescing to that understanding, I think we should both train youngsters from the beginning of understanding in age-appropriate language the SAFE use of guns--point downrange, chamber empty, safety on, etc.--and instill in them the notion that that everything you point at someone IS THAT GUN.

Of course that would not eliminate deaths from drunken fights, gangland encounters, garden variety robberies, or suicides. But it's a start. And something is better than nothing.


Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 12:06 PM

"Let me take you and bill shooting with me. Next thing ya khow, you will be buying your own glock and poping holes in paper .. deal?"

Don't bet on it...I had a gun once- in Kansas- a cheap .22 long barrel. Test fired it ONCE. It was stolen. Cops recovered it at a pawn shop, and told me I could get it back by paying the pawn shop for its trouble! I said that if they couldn't restore MY property, I think I don't need ANY guns.

As I mentioned above, I believe that "going shooting" (that is, **playing** with guns and having 'fun' tends to make people think they NEED them around as toys. Training? You really think training will overcome the urge of idiots to 'play carelessly'? Or of criminals to STEAL weapons if they can't buy a car full at a gun show?

Regulations...even if we craft perfect ones... are almost too late now. Too many illegal guns already out there. Still we need to try. Maybe GOOD regulations and GOOD enforcement will 'lower' the sad statistics in 40 years.... it sure won't stop the carnage.

What I see in all the posts by you 'responsible' gun owners is the idea that "I am sensible and follow the rules, so laws have to cater to MY rights, even if the same laws make it easy for the criminals and the mentally disturbed to ignore the rules"
Then you will say, "Well...if things are that bad, you'd best be glad that there ARE some responsible folk like us around...just in case 'something happens'. I rather suspect that more stuff 'happens' because so many people take extra chances when they think "I am armed, and can cope with problems." Hard to prove that...but...

   What do I think ought to be done? Sure... I have ideas. VERY heavy restrictions on sale of new weapons...and on all ammo. NO...I repeat...NONE.. of the assault weapons to be sold, and gradual reclaiming of all of them not controlled by law enforcement of the military. EVERY legal hand gun to be RE-registered and its owner to be vetted as having both skills and need to own hand guns! (yes..I know there are some who have such needs). NO huge gun shows... not just 'more rules' and fuzzy enforcement...no shows except for antiques and no ammo sold at shows. Then... really, really strong penalties for using a weapon in a crime, whether or not it was fired.
Under my system, Zimmerman would never have gotten NEAR a Glock, except illegally.... he sure would not have had a permit!


So... of course I know what chance those ideas have of being adopted... (take Bobert's $$$$ signs and triple them). And yes... IF any of my ideas were adopted in the future, some of the weapons current 'responsible' owners would have to be surrendered. I am trying to describe a system that would, if adopted, significantly reduce the carnage.... not a system that you 'like'.

What to suggest that MIGHT actually be adopted? I hardly know. The NRA is committed to stopping ANY reform... and they have millions of adherents who 'think' they are competent and have a 'need'...and already have guns...and a bumper sticker that says "...pry it out of my cold, dead hands."

Kinda hopeless looking, hmmmmm?

*I* try to stay WAY away from situations where idiots & criminals might be... but I live in a metropolitan area where reports of holdups within a couple miles of me are more & more common. *I* might be able to buy a gun, train in its use, and "defend my property" in certain ways...that I have never experienced yet. But in my neighborhood there are many who could NOT be trusted to own & use a gun.... who simply don't have the capacity or mindset....and *I* can't do Zimmerman-like vigilante patrols at night to protect my neighbors. They, it appears, will simply be the targets if things get worse....as will I... because I'm not gonna join the "pistol-packin' daddy" club.



Can you tell I am tired of the $$$$ fueled testosterone=guns problem today?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 12:21 PM

not owning a gun is a perfectly acceptable and responsible decision. However trying to lump all of us that hunted, enjoy shooting and have extensive training as myself and others as "gun nuts" or redneck budda's is not correct either. I am perfectly comfortable with firearms. I own an arsenal, trained police, military and gov agents in their use. I have fired every weapon from handgun to 50 cal fully auto machine guns all legally. I am no gun nut nor is gnu or anyone else here who likes shooting ... I also like pocket watches and fishing

not all of us gun owners do drive by shooting ya know


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 12:28 PM

I also know a hell of a lot of people that should not be allowed to drive also. I would take any of the people I know carrying a firearm to any of those people behind the wheel of a car any day. We also need tougher driving laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 12:34 PM

Maybe one reason the NRA went nuts was because members who weren't "nuts" left the organisation instead of fighting their corner, and continuing to fight it until they were expelled.

I'm sure that there are "car nuts" who would like to abolish all kinds of speed limts or driving tests and licences and so forth. But they are a tiny crazy minority who would never be seen as representative of the sane majority of car drivers. Why doesn't the same apply in the USA when it comes to guns? Or are the "nuts" actually in a majority?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 12:37 PM

"not all of us gun owners do drive by shooting ya know"
That is a straw man... it has no place as a serious comment.


Dan... re-read my post carefully. You are reading between the lines or ignoring the carefully worded gist of hat I say about 'responsible' gun owners.

As of today, I WOULD trust you...or gnu...or Mick...etc. and would have no problems IF you and the others were the only types who could get guns!!!
The problem is.... the way things are set up, YOUR rights allow all the dangerous & incompetent folk to do almost anything they wish! Guns are not LIKE cars.. or toaster ovens, which CAN be dangerous if mis-used. Guns in modern society are largely toys! After hunting...which needs only certain types of long guns, they are needed only by law enforcement or military...and a 'few' persons who have special needs.

Other countries both laugh at our laws and attitudes ...and complain because illegal guns in their countries often come from the US!


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 12:40 PM

all from the gun shows Bill, that is why I want our politicians to stop spinning their wheels on nonsense laws that give an illusion of doing something and give us a law that will keep the guns off the street or at least help considerably. You are right when you say the NRA lobby, but the NRA doesn't make laws. That is why our political fathers need to grow balls stand up and say no more gun shows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 12:41 PM

I repeat... comparing guns to cars is simply bad reasoning. Even though it is important to make safe driving laws strong, cars are not DESIGNED to injure or to use in crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 12:56 PM

Anybody know what the reasoning is - if any - behind the "gun show exclusion"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 01:04 PM

It is largely for the 'convenience'... as dealers are there from all over and were not able to do all the checks required of stores. I think that it 'could' be required to have a database made...with internet access... vaguely like credit card validity is checked immediately.
A license # of BOTH buyer & seller could be attached to any sales... and restrictions on purchases could be enforced... just as my grocery store can monitor whether I am going from store to store, buying sale items in excess of stated limits.

They 'could' design such a system... they just don't want to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 01:15 PM

I am totally in favour of good gun laws, including registration IN THE US but the registration in Canada... no. Not until we have a written right to "bear arms". Having said that, the destruction of the records and the discontinuance of registration is a step backward (yes, I was against it in the first place) but it's typical of our goverment to throw away over $1B to NOT address the actual problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 01:18 PM

What I do NOT know, never having been to a gun show, is whether those credit card machines are used at gun shows, or whether is is largely *wink-wink* cash deals....


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 01:27 PM

almost always all cash Bill, no records, no trace .. that is whats so terrible.   And they have one setup 1 mile from the Mexican border in Texas ... Insane


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 01:30 PM

on a documentary I saw some border agents stop a guy coming out of the Texas gun show, He had 14 AR-15's that he bought (that is the military M-16 but not fully auto) .. and it was all legal they could do nothing. Insanity runs to the bone


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 01:44 PM

Dan... as you well know and for the edification of anyone who does not know, A semi can be turned into an auto in minutes with screw drivers, wrenches and a file.

Let me try to make my point(s) above a tad more clear...

I think some see a problem which exists and think the NRA is at fault for it when it is clearly the fault of the US federal and state governments. Here, since the 30s, restricted weapons (barrel less that 18" long, automatics, some others) have required a permit of ownership and transport to and from an approved range must be by permit with the route taken being the shortest between one's home and the range. These permits must include the date and time(s) of transport. A permit can be issued for regular transport, eg, every Thursday night from 6PM to 10PM. A change of address requires a change of permit(s).

As I understand it, in some states one can purchase a machine pistol and ammo and then sell these to any nutcase or criminal. I kinda see that as a wee problem too. But that isn't the NRA's fault. As for the NRA lobbying $, well, that's the governments' fault as well as the fault of the people who elect the governments.

Is there an NARA you antis can donate to? Are you a member?

There, clear as mud now, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 01:49 PM

Well... I see 'understanding' of many issues by both gnu and olddude. I am curious what if any reaction there is to my ideas about database and controls AT gun shows...(since I doubt they will ban them)


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 01:51 PM

I go to a lot of auctions, always looking for my pocket watch or some artwork that I love. Always there is a shotgun for sale. The auction guys always say "we are not a gun show, if you bid you can pick the gun up at the sheriff's office after the background check" No harm no foul all on the up an up. But anyone over 18 can walk into a gun show, buy x number of AK-47's, plop down the cash and walk out no questions asked no background check, no paper work and it is legal. So our political leaders pass another law that does nothing, protects nothing, solves nothing and then claim victory (like the colt .380 handgun that is nothing of a weapon) but the real problem, the drive by shooting, the border patrol agents getting murdered, where are the weapons from .. not an auction, not a licensed firearms dealer, not a guy with a concealed carry permit that allowed himself to be photographed and fingerprinted by the FBI ... nope ... by the gun show


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 01:53 PM

and you are so right Gnu. I myself could turn an AK-47 to full auto in my sleep, I wouldn't ever consider doing that but I could without question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 02:04 PM

it seems really simple to me, stop all gun shows period. If you want an AK-47 why I don't know for whatever reason but you go to a licensed firearms dealer and go through the paperwork and background checks. There is no sportsman I know or competitive shooter that has any problem with that at all. I never bought a firearm from anyone outside a licensed FFL dealer. Most like me, hate the whole idea of the gun shows as all it does is arm the bad guys to the teeth. Political leaders afraid of the NRA calling them anti-american ... They have the perfect comeback with just the death toll alone, anyone with common sense would applaud any politician that say we are going to stop this shit now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 02:05 PM

"As for the NRA lobbying, well, that's the governments' fault as well as the fault of the people who elect the governments."

But isn't it also the fault of gun owners who let the NRA lobby against sensible regulations on stuff like gun shows?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 02:17 PM

"But isn't it also the fault of gun owners who let the NRA lobby against sensible regulations on stuff like gun shows?"

Obviously, yes. Surely they also vote, no? I don't understand why you need to ask that question. Seems to me to be an odd question to ask.

???


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 02:26 PM

But why don't the sensible gun people control the NRA and make it lobby sensibly?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 02:27 PM

Its a valid question Gnu, the sportsmen would support a law to restrict this stuff, but it never gets to even a bill in congress. Out political leaders have no courage or are getting money for their campaign from the NRA. Don't know. Oh they will pass a stupid law like no more then 10 round clips but even that is nonsense since a billion grandfathered clips exist. Yet I can buy a 50 round drum magazine for an AK at a show legally. There are more than 20,000 gun laws and pretty much all of them are left at the door when entering a gun show. Bob is right in that regard, no gun laws at all there. So our leaders pass nonsense laws that only impact sportsmen or competitive shooters and let the bad guys run amuck with assault weapons without restrictions of any manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 02:35 PM

I had a lot of people ask me why I thought the 10 round clip law was nonsense. Well it is because the guys that sprayed 15 rounds in a drive by would never be allowed to own any firearm in the first place but got them from a show. So limiting the magazine only impacted a competitive shooter and no one else. It did nothing to make anyone safer ... you see nonsense laws and then the politicians can claim "look at me I did something about guns" ... no in reality you politician you did nothing to help, nothing at all


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 02:41 PM

wanna make a ton of money legally, just buy up every rifle, shotgun etc you can get your hands on then sell them at a show for 5 times what you paid all cash, all legal.

then when someone is murdered by one of them just fall back on the line "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and then sleep well at night

it is all insane all of it


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 02:56 PM

while I am on my rant want to make us even more safer? pass a federal conceal carry law so ass wipe states like Florida don't keep giving carry permits to people who are breathing and pretty much nothing else. Maybe some young black man with candy won't be gunned down. Try NY state for a model


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 03:18 PM

"But why don't the sensible gun people control the NRA and make it lobby sensibly?"

Another inane question.

Why is it their job alone? How to they do that? Why are the antis not doing it? ALL sensible people should make it happen. Fact is, the system of lobbying is problematic in SO many "venues" and talked about by many people, including Obama. And, here is another fact... people like to whine about injustice(sssss) but they don't like to get off their ass and DO something about it. Seriously, why is there no NARA? Hmmm... I think I should spell that out in case somebody didn't get it.... National Anti-Rifle Association.

Your question is truly illogical and mis-guided. It's up to the voters and the politicians to enact laws... not the gun owners per say. That is just ludicrous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:00 PM

Well I wish the legit sportsmen could take back the NRA ..Sadly I think it has just become a political organization anymore and no longer about the sportsman. Beside we would all have to join again and then give them money to continue this stuff


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:02 PM

So let's see. Along with almost no one else, the NRA by supporting the gun-show exclusion 100% (along with almost nobody else), makes itself the best friend of street gangs, violent criminals, dangerous lunatics, Mexican drug lords, domestic terrorists, you name it - all the "outlaws" that (according to them) law-abiding gun-owners are narrowly holding at bay.

They call it "protecting the Second Amendment."


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:25 PM

Well it is the NRA's pac money but it is our Politicians who are afraid to do the right thing in my opinion for what it is worth. I know they put a lot of pressure to have that damn stand your ground law and the reduction in difficulty for conceal carry in many states. What is worse I think is a state like Florida has reciprocal agreements with something like 12 other states that honor their carry permit. Yet it is very easy to get a carry permit in Florida .. that was a push the NRA wanted and got was the reciprocal agreements. So ye it bothers me


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:46 PM

I don't believe they support the bad guys, I think myself it is more like GNU said. They saw so many stupid meaningless gun laws passed that now they dug their heels in and fight any gun law even those that would make all the sense in the world. Somewhere we gotta address the root of the cause of illegal firearms and starting where they are most prevalent. But alas I am not in office and anyone in office that tries seems to get labeled against the constitution.   It is all a cluster fuck actually


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 05:07 PM

Note the 3 tiered problem..

1)The NRA lobbies with lots of $$$ against any changes.
2)Members of Congress who might be willing to DO some changes fear they will be defeated by NRA lobbies, and that they will be unable to pass sane legislation on other issues. IF they are replaced by NRA stooges, their replacements will likely be worse on all issues.
3)IF there were a grassroots effort which actually got some sort of progress made and a few laws thru, the 2nd Amendment challenges would end up in the Supreme Court, where several of THOSE justices are essentially owned by lobbyists for Conservative causes....and if someone actually got the 2nd Amendment revised (requiring 2/3 of Congress), THAT would have to be ratified by 3/4 of the states, which can take years. The "equal rights for women" amendment died when a number of states (guess which ones) never ratified it.

It took YEARS to g-r-a-d-u-a-l-l-y pass laws limiting tobacco sales...and tobacco was proven to be be a danger. I have no idea if the gradual approach is possible with guns.

Because of the history of the country, and a 2nd amendment written in such a way that make it hard to interpret, we have gradually developed a 'culture' that expects firearms to be part of daily life.

Even sane people commonly use & keep guns and adopt the "I'm not the problem" attitude.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 05:19 PM

I tell ya what, the last thing I would want to be today is an ATF agent. Those poor bastards are trying to swim up Niagara Falls with all of the weapons being peddled. I would vote hands down to anyone running that said they would eliminate the gun show


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 05:27 PM

Well...then my woodworking show might return.........


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 05:33 PM

When I go to the sportsman's club and talk to all the guys, all hunters, all target shooters and say 2nd Amendment they all go hell yea our rights yada yada .. but if I said, do you guys agree that no felon should own a weapon or it should be harder for them to own a weapon... hey ya .. all would respond. No one wants to see guns in the hands of criminals. If I said well if you could only buy your firearms from a licensed dealer would that be an issue if we had no shows. Well 99% would say, I only buy from licensed dealers anyway because I know the guns aren't stolen ...

it is all how it is put to people .. Instead it is all put like .. they are taking away the constitution .. you see its the propaganda machine


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 05:36 PM

Dan... "They saw so many stupid meaningless gun laws passed that now they dug their heels in and fight any gun law even those that would make all the sense in the world."

Well... TWO of us understand why the NRA does what it does. That's a start, I guess. Both of us disagree with their policies and the way they do business but that doesn't seem to matter to those that wish to tar and feather us. Once again, I disagree with the NRA policies. I yanked my membership, my membership with the Canuck affiliate, and my membership with the New Brunswick Gun Owners Federation... or whatever the fuck those assholes called themselves, and The New Brunswick Wildlife Federation or ditto, and a few others.

The NRA is not the problem. The apathy of "good people", voters and politicians, IS the problem. Or, are the antis, including responsible gun owners, who appear to be in the vast majority, just not smart enough to take on the gun nuts? Maybe THAT is the real problem???

Gitter done!


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 06:23 PM

this thread has actually been one of the better discussions we have had. More civil then our usual :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 06:24 PM

"...not smart enough to take on the gun nuts? "

Or afraid of what 'some' gun nuts might do if they could identify the 'smart' ones.

Those "cold dead hands" bumper stickers are serious to some of them

lookee here


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 06:28 PM

and... lookee HERE

serious stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:36 PM

Yup and how about if I poke around and find some of the radical shit from the extreme environmentalists that think setting fire to houses in California is ok to preserve the Eco-system. That actually happened. Ya know you can cherry pick anything if ya want to .. if you want a serious debate then we can have one .. but if you want to use over zealous crackpots as a global example of all gun owners, you are pissing up the wrong tree


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:42 PM

Bill... yes it is VERY serious. Have you seen any of the news coverage of Egypt? Libya? Syria? Sudan? and countless others?

The general public has a basic right to defend themselves. At the most basic, British common law says that I, as a weak, old, frail man can use a baseball bat to "even the score" against a young and strong aggressor. US law says one can use a gun if required. I do NOT see anything wrong with that... with LEGAL gun ownership.

Come on eh? Legal gun ownership is NOT the problem. In fact, it protects even those who do not own guns because criminals are deterred by legal gun ownership.

If all the antis got together and formed the NARA and pushed for REASONABLE gun laws that addressed real problems (in the US... we don't have your "easy access" problems in Canada because our laws actually are logical and well applied... even tho that may change with long guns ONLY) with aquistion and ownership... Bob's yer uncle.

So, when are you gonna start up the wheels of motion and get the job done? Come on... there is money to be made. Form the NARA and you can be pres and get a good salary and save the good ol USA. Win-win.

Sorry to make light of it, but, in the end, I do find it all a bit of a joke. Albeit a very sad joke that allows so many people to suffer sinmply because nobody understands the big pic or the compromises that benefit everybody. Seriously... the compromises and understandings benefit EVERYbody.

Surely, it couldn't be any worse?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:45 PM

If you want to live in a country with a total ban on gun ownership try Mexico .. no one in Mexico is allowed to own a firearm ... worked out well for them right ... just watch the news. Yup they get them from us in the US but they are not allowed to own any gun. Working great right. guns ain't going away, what we do is try to control what we can that makes sense .. anyway I am done here


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:53 PM

"Or, are the antis, including responsible gun owners, who appear to be in the vast majority, just not smart enough to take on the gun nuts?"

So how is it "inane" to ask, if "the vast majority" of people who like having guns are sensible people who don't like what the NRA does, why don't they just get back into it and work to turn it round so that it actually reflects the actual wishes and interests of gun owners?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 08:05 PM

Yeah, Dan. So many threads, so many posts, so little understanding. Pretty much the end for me too.

For all of youse who don't understand what drives the NRA and won't stand up to them, posting your complaints ain't buttering the biscuit. Do something about it. Start the NARA... BUT... do it in a reasonable manner on accounta that there "cold dead hand" thing eh? They fuckin mean it! And they got guns up the ass.

gnightgnu


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 08:13 PM

Bottom line???

No, the NRA doesn't make the laws... They just buy the folks who do and have every politician in the country, President Obama included, in fear of them opening their va$t war che$t of ca$h to defeat anyone who suggests even the slightest sane legislation to make us safer from being shot by a wacko...

Bill's suggestions aren't radical... They are quit sane... No "taking away your gun" unless you are a wacko...

Zimmerman has a wacko history... Treyvon Martin would be alive today if we had sane gun laws... We have no laws... None... And here's the worst thing about this: The NRA thrives on people getting shot by wackos... Great for gun sale$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 08:25 PM

Ok... one last post because I didn't see McGrath's last post.

Are you fuckin serious? You said, "if "the vast majority" of people who like having guns..."

That is NOT what I said.

I am going to actually say gnightgnu now because what I want to say to McGrath is not very nice but everyone who read his last post will understand what I mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 09:40 PM

I "cherry pick" items relevant to the topic of the thread. If extreme environmentalism were the subject, examples of that would be in order... just to clarify what we must be aware of and eventually deal with.

I was against Carrie Nation busting up saloons, against the Ku Klux Klan, against the extreme rabid 'feminists' in the 70s, against 'tree huggers' trying to totally stop logging.... and now I am concerned about those who brandish guns against those who would regulate guns.

I try to be a reasonable, moderate, pragmatic guy who at least SEES all sides of a question, even when I end up on one side. My basic goal is making sense....and I do NOT decide too early what I consider sensible.

I used to 'tend' toward getting rid of guns... but that now seems both unreasonable and impracticable. I may change my stance again as things develop. Meanwhile, obvious 'rotten cherries' will be noted and picked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 12:37 PM

Sorry, gnu - I read "responsible gun owners, who appear to be in the vast majority" as meaning that the vast majority of gun owners are resaponsible gun owners, which seems very likely. If you meant something else I misunderstood your meaning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 11:47 PM

Ok, Bill now I get what you meant. But I gotta tell ya. I don't feel any safer with a criminal pointing a gun with 10 rounds in it vs a criminal pointing a gun with 15 rounds in it. That is the kind of laws we get and many anti gun people say yes good job ... when in reality it is a meaningless stupid law that fixes nothing. So for each of these they pass and claim victory, more criminals keep getting more and more illegal firearms because no real action is taken for whatever reason. It ain't about more laws, it is about applicable laws and that has been largely ignored. No one is happier then the criminal when they restrict lawful owners of anything. Criminals would be delighted to have a no gun at all law. Then they can run amuck like Mexico being the only ones who have them. Laws don't apply to them, ya gotta lock up their sources for getting them. So passing a couple hundred more useless rules does nothing unless their sources for weapons are dried up by serious and knowledgeable law makers, nothing will change and the NRA will continue to fight everything that comes down the pike, including the good ones. anyway done with the thread and rant


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 07:19 PM

Face it, ol'ster... There doesn't seem to be too many sane policies for controlling guns that you agree with...

Another, "yeah but" rebuttal...

Let's just say that I believe that the very modest and well though-out policy changes that Bill has outlined are a baby steps... Not T-Rex steps... The VaTech shooter would have killed more people with a bigger clip... Same with the Gifford's shooter... Same with Columbine...

Why defend unlimited clips???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 07:31 PM

I don't think he 'defended' large clips... he was just pointing out that 10 is not much safer than 15.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 08:00 PM

"he was just pointing out that 10 is not much safer than 15."

Yup. I seen a guy with three clips taped up in a configutation that allowed him to approximate a belt feed on an M16. Common practice in the military. Now, the Canuck made M16 actually works well (Bro told me that the yanks he dealt with would pay big money to trade M16s with them) and, the version (A6? I can't recall) fitted with a 200 round drum, it's a nasty piece. But, Dan's point is about bullshit legislation made to appease and not to do any real good.

That's way thread drift. But, this thread is defunct anyway IMO. Ran it's course. Only rehashes many other threads with countless posts and opinions ranging from thoughtful to just fuckin stupid. Fact is, the gun laws in the US suck. Why ? It's a mystery. The gun laws in Canada are taking a step backward. Why? Even MORE of a mystery. Especially when you add on the fact that we don't have a constitutional right to own firearms. The regression of our legislation guarantees the right of stupidity. Especially by our politicians.

It's a sad day here in Canuckistan witnessing the demise of the registry (especially because it means the POL* and PAL* will be gone too... unacceptable to me). Never thought I would say that. Maybe I am growing older and wiser too?

* Possesion Only License; Possesion and Aquisition License.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 08:02 PM

Okay, Bill...5 more dead... Oh??? Times 3... That's 15 more dead...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 08:06 PM

Yes... we know.. ANY large clips are serious. 5 shot 22s are serious... people carrying hand guns who have no need for them are problems. But Dan's point is well taken.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 09:00 PM

Self-protection and protection against tyranny--those are the reasons for the Second Amendment to the U.S. constitution. And it says, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." That's pretty straightforward. Gun legislation is illegal, at least at the federal level. States can try it, but technically they violate the Second Amendment when they limit the right to keep and bear arms. We need to roll back gun laws, not beg for new ones.

Recently the Department of Homeland Security ordered 450 million rounds of .40 caliber hollow point ammo. Hollow points aren't target rounds, they're killers. And that's just ONE ammo order they've placed.

And then there are the new DHS SWAT vehicles, and some of you want to give up your means of self protection? Why don't you just take a razor to your balls and be done with it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 07:12 AM

What's the weather like up there on the Planet Zog, or whatever other loony-tunes planet you live on?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 07:28 AM

I just find it strange that a country which holds itself up as a beacon of democracy and the rule of law doesn't feel it can rely on those for "protection against tyranny". Are Americans really so distrustful of their system of government and legal structures that they feel the need to arm themselves against them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 07:32 AM

I guess that's what I was meaning, Howard, but you said it far more eloquently!


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 07:42 AM

Ask Trayvon Martin if he feels that a limited magazine would have made him safer.

One bullet in the wrong hands = One dead schoolboy.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 01:03 PM

The point is, Bill, that the Gifford's shooter was wrestled down while attempting to reload... I understand ol-ster's point about being concerned about that first bullet, however...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 02:20 PM

I agree with the five shot clip rule (here it's 5 for rifles and 3 for shotguns for obvious reasons)in a way but not all the way because only an amateur can't reload a CLIP weapon fast enough to avoid being overpowered. Or, someone who can't count. When it goes "click", that's a bad thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 05:36 PM

I can't be arsed to read all this again.

There's a long piece on it all in today's Guardian.

It does rehearse the amazement of the rest of the world at the US fascination with deadly toys.

It also points out the unspoken corollary to the NRA mantra.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

But guns make it easier and a moment's anger terminal.

The US gun lobby needs to grow up and put away the symbols of playing Cowboys and Indians.


It also points out that the NRA is white, ageing, and heading for being a minority demographic any time real soon now. Dr Strangelove anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 06:03 PM

Actually a 45 cal hardball does more damage then a 45 hollow point. Why because the bullet only travels at 900 ft per second and won't open anyway. No target shooter I know uses hollow points, too expensive. We make our own wad cutters

What we have today with our laws is like this example:

What if we said, because of all the drunk drivers we will pass a law that the drinking age is now 30, next we will limit the size of beer sold in cans to 8 oz only ... However, one day a week, lets say Saturday, the bars and lacquer stores do not have to card anyone for any alcohol purchased

you see that is the way we have it now for gun laws. We do this other stuff but let the shows go and have no standard for training requirements, and let the states do what they want .. and wonder how gangs get fully auto AK-47's


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 06:26 PM

Richard... you got any stats on that "moment of anger" thing? Got any stats on how many people have knives in their kitchen? Got any stats on crimes committed with knives? or baseball bats... or anything else?

The USA is not fascinated with guns. That is a simplistic statement which is unsupprtable.

The USA has a problem with supporting reasonable and effective gun laws. Doesn't anybody outside of the USA and Canada realize just how MANY guns exist in our countries? LEGAL guns... LONG guns. MILLIONS and MILLIONS. I sm only 55 years old and I put food on the table with a gun when I was a lad. Millions in NA still do so. Whay can't any of you antis get that?

We are on two VERY separate topics here... legal guns for lawful purposes and guns that people don't need and shouldn't have, especially criminals. The NRA is right. Guns don't kill people. People who want to ban ALL guns kill people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 11:01 PM

Name calling's a good sign in a debate. You always want your opponents to revert to infantilism. But you forgot to throw in something about tin foil hats and black helicopters. That was posted on YouTube today. The video's only 47 seconds long and shows a black copter flying low over Chicago.

Chicago's a perfect argument in favor of gun ownership. The city's been virtually disarmed. VERY prohibitive gun laws in Chicago, yet gun crime is through the roof. Law-abiding citizens can't own guns, so they have to fight shooters with baseball bats.

Chicago's mayor is Rahm Emmanuel, whose father was an Israeli terrorist. He helped found Irgun, a terrorist organization. Those poor people on the ground in that video get shot at by criminals and terrorized from above by terrorist rulers. They need guns.

Emmanuel has recently claimed broad new police state powers, so look for something to happen in Chicago before long. Perhaps the bullshit "race riot" meme that's been planted by the Obama team will be played out in Chicago next November. Close election, staged race riots in Chicago, and the town is shut down on election day. Illinois' 20 electoral votes are held hostage until things can be sorted out. JFK's slim victory was attributed to the rigged Chicago vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 06:39 AM

I'm stunned and amazed - I find myself in total agreement with Richard Bridge.

Some (but by no means all) American people seem to live an excess-testosterone-driven-wild-west-fantasy-world-lunatic-obsessional existence. I count myself extremely fortunate that my only obsessions are my wife and my guitars - all sane, all peaceable, and all very pleasurable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 06:54 AM

'The USA is not fascinated with guns. That is a simplistic statement which is unsupprtable.'




Article from yesterday's Guardian


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 02:05 PM

Sorry, I posted the link to the article this morning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 02:36 PM

Just couldn't read the whole article. It became tedious and obvious early on.

I think youse should find a better choice of words. Maybe something like, "There are so many people who live in abject poverty, who use heavy drugs to deaden the pain of their dire standard of livng, who... fill in whatever else... that have access to guns and will use them in crimes when they have to do so to survive that MANY people feel personally threatened and arm themselves in order to be able to defend themselves.

Like I keep saying, guns do not kill people but poor, uneduated, unemployed, homeless, hungry people with easy access to guns kinda do. Ya wanna cut down gun related crime, fix crime. How? Spend yer dime raising the standard of living. Is it gonna happen? Read on.

Let's take a walk down the road to hell. For the millionth time, I say "the rich subjugate the poor". Why, you ask. Simple. They need to force the poor to join the military to blow shit up and kill people so the rich can stay rich by exploiting foreign resources. I think it started about, ooooh, thousands of year ago, to be exact.

Gun laws? Nuh-uh.

Fascination with guns? Nuh-uh.

Scared shitless? Yup, big time.

And, as far as the gun-homicide rate. Yeah. So what? I contend most of these are criminals killing competing criminals and criminals killing people for profit. As for some guy killing the bitch for fuckin around on him or the like, I contend he woulda used that hammer if he was a bad shot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 05:41 PM

vis a vis the Ted Nugent thread: If anyone needed proof that the current NRA (I, like olddude was a member back in the day & quit in disgust many years ago) is an organization of the assholes, by the assholes and for the assholes its their letting lunatic jackasses like Nugent, Limbaugh et. al. speak for them. The old NRA never would have allowed it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 07:12 PM

Interesting to see what Bill Cosby thinks, esp. as he lost a son to a random shooting fifteen years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 10:24 PM

The loss of his son was horrible. As I seem to recall, his son was changing a flat tire on his Mercedes when a criminal (a poor immigrant? I can't recall) demanded money and shot him because he was "moving too slowly".


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: number 6
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 11:29 PM

Yes ... the U.S.A may be a country of cowboys who are fascinated with guns. It it may be a country that is somewhat liberal when it comes to gun control.

With that in saying may I remind all you kids that there is a trial currently in process in Norway where a complete horrific madman is on trial for killing 77 people. Most of the victims were children, shot with a gun. Norway is a country that does have strict gun controls, and a population that is not so fascinated with weaponry.

Hatred and violence is not a plague that affects only the U.S.A. Gun controls cannot prevent the killing.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 11:47 PM

If you don't want people to have guns, don't make the fucking things.

Once ya realize that the projectile leaves the barrel due to gas expansion, it's easy enough to make a gun, at home, in your spare time.

America is at once the best and worst country in this world. The people do little to slow down their government when times are financially good; that is, when the US controls the world economy. When times are bad, as now they are, the same people who were quiet become vocal.

The reason the US controlled the world's economy is because the US people allowed the mass production of nuclear weapons, the development of terrible chemical and biological weapons, and their saving grace is that they did it in the name of freedom, the same freedom they lost when Executive Orders stripped The Constitution. The US is the last place I'd look for answers regarding guns. The USA does NOT set the standard, nor does it set the bar. IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:55 AM

'Norway is a country that does have strict gun controls, and a population that is not so fascinated with weaponry.'

And that is why, the one off extreme situation of a madman wreaking havoc, they have the low murder rate they have.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 03:52 AM

Look. If you have a gun it is easier to kill someone than if you don't.    If it was just as easy to kill someone with a knife or fists, why would soldiers carry guns? Guns are for killing.

Restrict guns and killing is harder.

It is so simple anyone (except, it seems, the NRA lobby) can understand it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 04:24 AM

Spot on Richard. It's so fuckin' simple innit?
None is so blind as he who will not see.
It must be dreadful for those people over there, living their lives in such abject fear and terror that they feel the need to have a gun to wave in other peoples' faces. I've never felt that fear over here, never. Why? Because I know that, if I'm in a crowd of a thousand people, the likelihood of someone in that crowd having a gun on their person is virtually zero.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 08:23 AM

"Because I know that, if I'm in a crowd of a thousand people, the likelihood of someone in that crowd having a gun on their person is virtually zero."

Tell that to the recent mass shooting victims (in public places) in Norway, Belgiuum, France.

That Norwgian madman has admitted he took his 'attack' training on video games.

As I have been saying all along here in this thread, it's not just an American problem.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 11:08 AM

What don't you understand about "the the likelihood of someone in that crowd having a gun on their person is virtually zero", or "I've never felt that fear over here, never."?

Your problem is that you're so used to every Tom, Dick and Harry having firearms, and so used to running around scared shitless of every shadow, you can't begin to conceive of a life where those aren't the case. That's the life we have here - I've never seen a gun, except in the hands of farmers (shotguns usually, for vermin control and hunting small game), gun-club members, the police and members of the armed forces. And our murder-rates (like those of Norway) are a fraction of those in the US.

How the nation brilliant enough to put men on the moon can't understand a simple correlation between gun-ownership and gun-homicide rates beggars belief (or would beggar belief, if it weren't perfectly obvious that it's not a case of can't understand, more a case of 'don't wanna' understand).

As I said, none is so blind as he who will not see. You just proved it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 11:49 AM

"And our murder-rates (like those of Norway) are a fraction of those in the US."

Homicide rate per 100,00 2010
North America ... 4.7
Europe .......... 3.5

List of countries by intentional homicide rate

As I say, none is so blind as he who see's only perceptions.

biLL a Canadian guy


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:06 PM

The U.S. is a very large country ... larger than Europe .... may regions in the U.S. have a murder rate equal to GB on the other hand many parts of Europe (which have strict gun controls) have a murder rate equal to many regions in the U.S. ... so to say the whole of the U.S. is murder central in the global sphere is rather biased ... that perception is based on the the cowboy gunslinger image that is presented in the mainstream media, movies, T.V. programs etc. .... yes, the U.S. has many problems these days and we all like to point our fingers at that them, but they as a country are not more violently inclined as a people than many other parts of the world.

Having walked through the city of Boston many times I know there are sections of the city that I feel safe waking through and then there are sections that I feel more vulnerable and know I should be careful .... not unlike walking through the cities of Glasgow, Madrid and Munich.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:11 PM

I was talking specifically about the US vs. UK and Norway. Not the same thing as North America vs. Europe. We call your stunt "Moving the goalposts", and it doesn't wash.

I don't have the numbers to hand right now (some of us are working) but the last check I made which covered, I believe, year 2005, the per capita gun-homicide rate for the UK was <1/10 of the US rate - working from memory we had approximately 50 or 60 deaths, which pro-rated by population should have produced around 350 in the US - the US actual was in the region of 3,600. Go figure, it's not a giant leap, provided you're willing and able to accept the resulting correlation (which obviously the NRA would deny as a matter of principle).

Now I'm out, before you start waving your gun at me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:29 PM

btw, just to let you know .... I don't own a gun, I have never owned a gun and have no intentions of ever owning a gun .... but I do have a shillelagh ... ;-)

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:33 PM

""As I have been saying all along here in this thread, it's not just an American problem.""

It's a matter of scale.

In Europe such events are so rare that the chance of any individual being shot is rather less than the chance of winning the Euromillions lottery.....twice!

In the USA mass shootings at schools are approaching the status of an annual tradition, and citizens don't feel safe unless they carry weapons.

It's a bigger and more frequent problem in the USA than in almost any other "civilised" nation.

The nation with the most guns per 100,000 population has the highest murder rate.

And please don't try the old Rwanda, Somalia etc. argument. These are not even semi civilised, and don't really rate the description "nations".

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:41 PM

Poor debating technique, if unintentional, dishonest if intentional, trying to conflate gun homicide rates with total homicide rates.

Meaningless correlation!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:52 PM

I just want to say I am not against gun controls .... I'm for them .... what I'm trying to say is don't expect gun controls to have much affect against murders. Humans are much, much, more dangerous then guns.

now ... back to the debate

Preceptions again .... Western Europe, most of whose countries have much tougher gun laws than the United States, has experienced many of the worst multiple-victim public shootings.

mass shootings at schools ... Where have the worst school shootings occurred? Nearly all of them in Europe. The very worst one occurred in a high school in Erfurt, Germany, in 2002, where 18 were killed. The second-worst took place in Dunblane, Scotland, in 1996, where 16 kindergartners and their teacher were killed. The third-worst, with 15 dead, happened in Winnenden, Germany. The fourth-worst was in the U.S. — Columbine High School in 1999, leaving 13 dead. The fifth-worst, with eleven murdered, occurred in Emsdetten, Germany.

and then there was the Norwegian tragedy last summer.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:58 PM

These shooting and killing are really a new event in our country. they just didn't happen back in the 50's and early 60's. The gun show law was on the books forever. Those shows were all about the sportsman. Shotguns, duck calls, etc .. At that time gun laws were sparse. Hell you could buy anything war surplus from a mail order catalog and cheap. No problems. However as the drug folks got organized, more and more killings. The gun laws go tighter. The killing rate got worse, so more gun laws, more killings. The criminals figured our really quick they could buy all they need and more from the shows. More and more laws that did nothing to help. If sensible laws are passed, it will be much harder for them to get weapons. Sportsmen support sensible laws, but we don't support stupid and meaningless restrictions that make no one safer.

If we address the huge profits from illegal drugs, you will also fix the gun violence. No sportsman is doing the drive by shootings.
My home town in Pennsylvania, there is no crime, there is no killings. There is no drug problems either. Everyone is armed to the teeth, because everyone hunts for food, fishes, grew up with firearms, loves God and takes care of one another. Most doors are never locked.And if a stranger needed help they would do anything to help them. It is the culture. It is the way they were taught. Hard work, God , family, friends. But those people can defend themselves. I like all the kids back there could shoot before I could ride a bike. Safety training starts in the womb I think. We just never had an issue of any type and still don't when I go back home. It is the nature of the society and how people grow up. Drugs have not taken hold there because there would be no profit .. few if any would buy. Other parts of the country, not so ... America is a huge country. My county alone is twice the size of Great Britain. Populations are diverse and cultures are different as is the problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:06 PM

I'll also throw this one inot the debate for my British friends ... Americans have their Clint Eastwod and 'Gran Torino', the Brits have their Michael Caine and 'Harry Brown'.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:12 PM

"The U.S. is a very large country ... larger than Europe .... may regions in the U.S. have a murder rate equal to GB on the other hand many parts of Europe"

The US population (about 300 million) is less than half that of Europe (780 million). Europe is a little larger than The USA even if you count largely unpopulated Alaska.

If there is a region in the US of comparable population to Great Britain with less than twice the murder rate, I don't know what it is.

I think that among G20 countries the US has the most murders apart from Russia. It has a higher murder rate than every European country but Russia and Asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:28 PM

What we really have is a total breakdown of values in many area's of our society. We have broken homes, drugs, poverty, latch key kids, no guidance, no adults passing on traditional values. If a kid only knows that the answer to every problem in life is violence, then how can we expect to not see the school shootings. These are new events in this nation. Roll back to the 50's or early 60's and it didn't occur. What has changed? no parents who care, no adults anywhere who care, kids then seek what they need from other sources I.E. gangs. They learn to take what they need. No work ethic, no guidance, no God, no country believe in nothing, have nothing, escape using drugs and then you have what we are seeing today. I have no answers only can figure out the cause. If there were no market for drugs, we would not have this. Why do we have a market. It is escape .. when your life is so meaningless that the recourse is to escape. Hence the profits .. hence the violence


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:37 PM

One of the stupid talk shows late at night when i couldn't sleep, had a young woman on doing DNA tests for the "baby daddy" .. 6 guys and none of them were the father. Six guys all around the same time ... I mean this is more common then we think. What parenting skills on the 5 other kids she has also is going on there. My guess the kids grow up on their own, no values, do whatever they must to survive. And somewhere down the pike get an illegal weapon.

Society starts at the family level, when it ceases to be a family with real values, then how could other human life be important.

anyway my rant is over


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:37 PM

THere are many ways of escaping the pain, if that is a clear goal. Drugs is one of the least viable. There are psychological sollutions, physical sollutions, emotional solutions, and so on.

The "lesson" of dramatizing or acting out mental and emotional pain by lashing out physically is a really dumb lesson, reinforced by alcoholics and movie producers. In real-life terms it is about the dumbest answer to be found.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:40 PM

"These are new events in this nation. Roll back to the 50's or early 60's and it didn't occur."

Howard Unruh


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:41 PM

Amos
YUP so right and it keeps happening all over or there would be no market for the illegal drugs.

Oh when I said twice the size of GB I meant land mass not population


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:41 PM

Sorry ... I meant Western Europe population 412,787,xxx, U.S population 313,388,xxx ... ok ... I'm still wrong. I think it is fair to compare the whole of the U.S. to Western Europe rather than a specific European country.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:55 PM

One of the reason I like the show swamp people is it reminds me of growing up. Troy after his hunt comes home. He has a sea of family and friends all at his house to celebrate his success. He holds his granddaughter and says this is what it is all about, family, friends. Look how God blessed us. I also believe if you drove up to his house at that moment he would set another plate at the picnic table for ya.

Now his kids grew up with firearms, he has an arsenal. Do I think any of his grand babies are going to walk into a school and start shooting. Not .. ever .. the kids have values, conscience, respect of life and others .. because of their family .. Their guns are tools for their way of life.

We have to address this broken society and get back to what you see at Troy's house to fix this violence i think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:01 PM

The USA is 38 times as big as GB in area, 5 times the population. You were wrong in the numbers Olddude but the actual figures make your point stronger.

look at the chart on this page.

If you compare the USA to Western Europe the USA has a murder rate of about 4.8 per 100K the average murder rate is 1 or less per 100k


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:02 PM

It has a higher murder rate than every European country but Russia and Asia


Should be

It has a higher murder rate than every European country but Russia and the former Soviet, Baltic states.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:11 PM

Olddude, with respect to your opinion. I have to point out a couple of things. A very small percentage of kids from every type of home are murderers. A lot of murders are committed by middle class people, Colimbine and VT come to mind off hand. I am for strict regulation of guns designed to kill people, hand guns, assault rifles, sawed off shotguns. I am all for the well regulated private ownership of hunting equipment.

The standard for the carrying of a gun, in terms of safety training, insurance and safety regulation should be at least as strict and for the operation of a motor vehicle.

I don't think it is viable to try to control gun violence by the imposition of values. But that is just my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:19 PM

You point Jack is very well taken my friend


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:34 PM

And still no answer from Number 6 re. conflating gun homicides with Wiki figures on total homicides.

Where might that 4.7 figure be if guns were at the same per capita level as in the UK.

3.7?....2.7?.....maybe 1.7.

Let's try to keep discussing like for like. Even allowing for drug related shootings and Dunblane Ralph Moat etc., gun homicide in the UK is very low.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:49 PM

"Where might that 4.7 figure be if guns were at the same per capita level as in the UK."

There are certainly other factors.

Where might they be if the social safety net here was as good as the U.K.'s?

What if there was not excessive violence in our media? Remember when all Clint Eastwood did in Hollywood was soot and punch people on screen?

What if we were all like Looney Tunes characters and the only consequence of a gunshot was a black face or having our beaks spun around?

beak


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 03:27 PM

JtS... "Where might they be if the social safety net here was as good as the U.K.'s?"

You bet! The poor in the US don't equate to the poor in the UK. By a longshot! (pun intended)


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: number 6
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 05:40 PM

Well Monsieur Wisyeeweeg, as gnu says the "poor in the U.S. don't equate to the poor in the UK" ... and that is a given. Britain's war on poverty is much more effective than the U.S.(Britain being a more politically socialistic in it's approach). An offshoot of the large population of the poverty in the U.S. is the formation of gangs. Gangs are the only way out for many. From what I can gather 60% of all gun murders in the U.S. are gun related. One can also say this 60% is a probably directly related to drugs.

So .... if 60% of the murders in the U.S. is gang related (and bear in mind the much larger population of the poor in the U.S. as compared to |Britain) this would mean 2.82 % of the total U.S. ratio of that 4.7%. This would reduce the amount of murders in the U.S to a ratio of 1.88 (somewhere in the same ratio as Western Europe)

From this I would say decriminalization of drugs would probably have a greater impact on decreasing gun violence than arguing about gun legislation (though personally I would like to see some sort of gun control also). If the U.S. had more of a socialistic approach in governing it's population this would also have an impact.

Gun crime will also rise in Western Europe as we see more and more of government austerity programs. Poverty will increase and along with that is the hatred, fear and intolerance of minorities.

As per the horrific tragedy of mass murders in schools and such ... well I have already alluded to this in previous posts.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 08:14 PM

Im glad Ilive in AUSTRALIA


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 09:35 PM

Bottom line is that you can chart America's decline with two striking stats:

1. stagnated wages

2. number of handguns

Way past time for a conversation about both... Way overdue!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 09:50 PM

Simple. Start with REASONABLE and LOGICAL gun laws that everyone can get behind. Laws that the NRA cannot defend against. Like we have in Canada. Go slow. Pick the battles. Don't stack the deck against yourselves... ya can't win that way.

Otherwise, yer just gonna lose... yer just gonna make it harder to get something done.

Ban guns? Fuck me! Like that's a solution that some of you think will be succesful in this situation? Giver yer heads a shake and see if they rattle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 10:06 PM

"Start with REASONABLE and LOGICAL gun laws that everyone can get behind. Laws that the NRA cannot defend against. Like we have in Canada."

Canada bans assault rifles. The US lifted that ban under Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 10:38 PM

Kinda hard to get anywhere with the NRA... Anything and everything that smacks of any regulation, sane or not, will get the same over-the-top knee-jerk reaction by the NRA...

Obama wants to take away your guns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:07 AM

Somebody already took away their fuckin' brains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: olddude
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:24 AM

In all my ranting and raving on this threat that is all I was trying to say. Give us some laws that we all can get behind. Then if the NRA or anyone wants to argue, they will be looked at as what they really are. I know of no one that thinks the gun show law as we have now is a good idea. In the 60's they went from, "look I got this great duck call at the gun show" to now where it is as far from the sportsman as you can get. Walk in and it looks like a military weapons cache.

Simply change the law to read, if you sell at a gun show, ya gotta go through the checks and balances like buying from any licensed dealer... Now you can still have your shows, but we will be a hell of a lot safer


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:27 AM

That's exactly what they think about their political opponents, Backwoodsman. They think they're brainless. I know...I've heard some of these fellas on the Right talking to one another about "liberals". God, do they ever detest liberals. And they honestly believe that everything that's wrong with the world is due to either liberals...or Muslims.

But the Muslims they're so worried about are not liberals. ;-) In fact, they are extremely conservative in their own cultural terms.

You see, politics works this way:

1. It's the Great Divider.

2. By dividing people up into "us and them" consciousness, it conquers them...and it enriches the elite who rule over them.

3. The elite is normally composed of bankers, industrialists, and arms manufacturers. These people get rich off conflict. Wars and fear of war are primary sources of income for them. Increased expenditure on surveillance equipment and organization also profits them.

4. So...the more they can get different groups of people to hate and fear each other, the more money they can make.

5. The creation of separate political parties and other separate factions aids greatly in this endeavour, by setting up various groups of people in permanent opposition to one another.

6. All those groups of people can easily be convinced that the other groups of people ARE the real problem.

7. They are not. The elite that rules over them all is the real problem.

8. It was that way in Roman times. It is that way now.

9. And there probably isn't a lot you can personally do about it...except stop believing in it, and thereby giving it your support by default, just because you don't know any better. Stop believing the standard propaganda line that makes you hate and fear your brother!

I stopped believing in it quite some time ago. If enough people stopped believing in it, the human status quo would have to change.

It is never going to change by hating and despising your brother and characterizing him as "brainless". He's not brainless. He's just been coached and prepared within a different belief group than you, therefore he has become susceptible to a different line of political propaganda. And that serves the ruling elite, because as long as they can keep you and your brother fighting each other they have you right where they want you...under the big political thumb, dominated, and controlled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:39 AM

In pretty much every state that I have hunted in, you are required to have either military experience, or a hunters safety course before you can get a license. No one I know thinks that is a bad law. Hunters were the ones that wanted it. We don't want to go in the woods with people who don't know what they are doing. So , if you are going to buy a gun, require a safety course or some other proof of safety training. Nope, not for buying the weapon. Then we read about a little kid getting hold of the gun and killing his brother by accident. You see a law requiring safety training isn't bad and most everyone would stand behind it I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:42 AM

for those who don't understand what I was saying about safety training. One area of the training is securing the firearm so kids won't get their hands on it in their home. That is why I used that example. We need that law


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 11:23 AM

""I know of no one that thinks the gun show law as we have now is a good idea.""

Everybody who sells at them and everybody who buys Dan.

Now I don't know how many that is but it's a long way from nobody.

The worry is that a very large proportion of buyers are probably the very people that nobody in their right mind would allow to own guns, including your drug dealers and gang members.

At least our drug dealers have to find illegal sources for their guns, which is comforting given that almost all of our gun crime is drug related.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 11:38 AM

""It was that way in Roman times. It is that way now.""

Ancient history 101 LH.

Rome conquered pretty much all of the then known world by force of arms and set up an empire which lasted 500 years by doing the exact opposite.

They didn't divide, they assimilated and rewarded conquered races.

Taking Carthage as an example: After destroying the city they built a huge city of their own and welcomed all of the local, mostly nomadic tribes, many of whom settled and in the fulness of time became Roman citizens.

North Africa didn't become Roman, Romans in North Africa became one with the Africans, and the benefits accrued were such that few complained.

Not divide and conquer, then rule with a rod of iron, more conquer, then treat as allies and eventually assimilate.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 02:37 PM

Don
I said "I" since I don't know any criminals or drug dealers I will still stand by what I said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 07:00 PM

How does "thoughtless" work fir ya', LH???

Serious...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:06 PM

It isn't exactly lack of thought that is the problem, Bobert. Everyone thinks in some fashion. They think along their own accustomed and habitual lines of internal "logic", and whatever happens to push their buttons and sustain their mythology. In fact, most people are almost incapable of not thinking (becoming internally silent and calm) whenever they're awake...and that is exactly what bedevils them. They get drunk and take drugs to partially silence their unruly mind which is causing them so much stress! ;-) So it isn't lack of thought that's the problem. It's unhealthy, unproductive, immature, fearful and divisive patterns of thought that are the problem. It's negative thoughts that are the problem.

And I'm saying that a ruling elite and the mass media usually encourage a great deal of unhealthy and negative patterns of thought...specially when they are getting their public pumped up to fight a war...or to surrender some of their long enshrined civil liberties for the sake of "security".

****

Don - Yes, you're essentially correct about the Romans establishing that rule of iron, and assimilating populations into the empire, and offering those populations various incentives to cooperate. For sure. But they did use typical divide and conquer tactics whenever it was to their immediate advantage, as any conquering empire does. For awhile it was Christians who served as the Empire's scapegoats for the public to focus anger on. They were viciously persecuted and often killed, it was a bit like what the Nazis did with the Jews and other groups in the brief era of the Third Reich. Later a time came when it occurred to the emperor of Rome that Christianity could serve more effectively as a force to unite the empire and coopt a large variety of other faiths, and it became the official religion of Rome after that. The Romans ran the world's most successful and longlasting empire, so they obviously were pretty good at it. But...things moved much more slowly then than they do now. Our modern technologies have greatly speeded up social change. An empire that would have lasted 500 years back then might last only 50 now. The American Empire (which consists of financial/mercantile and military control over others and estabishing client/puppet governments rather than by open colonization) really got going fullblast at the conclusion of WWII (though it had been underway in a smaller fashion ever since the declaration of the Monroe Doctrine). It's been over 65 years since WWII ended. I think time is running out for the American Empire. What comes afterward is hard to say, but we may not live long enough to find out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: kendall
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 12:03 PM

Don T, If you think Canada never had an Indian problem, look up the Massacre of the Miti.

As far as fewer cops being shot, just recently in Greenland NH 4 of them got it, but the bastard who did it also bit the big one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 06:53 PM

""Don T, If you think Canada never had an Indian problem, look up the Massacre of the Miti.

As far as fewer cops being shot, just recently in Greenland NH 4 of them got it, but the bastard who did it also bit the big one.
""

I'm puzzled cap'n.

1. I never said that Canada didn't have an Indian problem. It's a hell of a long way back in this thread, but from what I can recall, I said that Canada didn't feel the need to exterminate them.

2. I do not recall specifically mentioning cop killings in this thread at all.

Are you sure you have the right Don?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 07:29 PM

How about "wrong thinking", LH???

I mean, when folks use mis-information and mythologies to advocate bad laws and policies they don't get a pass... Something wrong is happening...

BTW, Obama hasn't pushed one single gun regulation but that doesn't stop Mitt Romney and the NRA going into their Obama-is-gonna-take-yer-guns-away BIG LIE

Yawn...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: olddude
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 07:55 PM

Well if Obama is going to take them all away ... anyone want to buy a great colt .357 Mag. I never shoot it anyway :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 10:59 PM

That's right, Bobert...wrong thinking is the problem.

Regarding Obama's supposedly dire intentions of taking everyone's guns away...there can't be any truth to it, because if there was, Chongo would be going ballistic about it! And he's not. Case closed. Obama is not going to take your guns away.

Chongo's main point, though, is that he will encourage gun ownership more than Obama would, more than Romney would, more than Wild Bill Hickock or Machine Gun Kelly would, more than practically anyone would! He intends to return the USA to more or less the conditions that existed in, say, the 1870's when it comes to gun ownership. The more the merrier. ;-D He would also like to have a lot more gunnery training schools around so that the public can learn proper and safe use of their firearms...at least one such school for every 1,000 citizens right across the country. This would provide a lot of new jobs and ease the unemployment problem.

Just another great idea from the APP! Vote for Chongo in 2012.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: olddude
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 02:26 AM

Chongo has my vote there LH ... a good old fashioned red neck ape is just what we need fer sure. Can me and "Rap" be minster's of the arsenal. Hell we have torn apart put together and shot about everything ever made . And we could train em right how to hold an Uzi on full auto ... I even know how to conceal it ... yup my vote


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 10:09 AM

So, now that we agree that the wrong thinking of the NRA has trumped common sense to the point where even the president of the United States is afraid to piss them off then looks as if this discussion has run its course...

Sans, Chongz, of course, who can keep any discussion going with his three-ringed-crazy-monkey routine...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 01:18 PM

Don... "It's a hell of a long way back in this thread, but from what I can recall, I said that Canada didn't feel the need to exterminate them."

There is debate over that. One is whether the government deliberately distributed small pox infected to plains (and other) tribes.*

Of course, I am assuming you are referring to slaughter by military forces (or, as some history books call it, war). The Northwest Mounted Police and British Forces, to my knowledge, never engaged in such practice. I assume this was a concious decision made by the British Parliament after a logistical analysis by their military commanders in the field. Of course, the Brits did employ some tribes to pursue such practices on other tribes.*

Please note that I have a very limited knowledge of USA and CAN history in this regard.

* I would hasten to add, in both istances, that these (most - again, debatable) took place long before the US military engaged Native Peoples.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 02:25 PM

"One is whether the government deliberately distributed small pox infected to plains (and other) tribes."

The history I learned was that the Hudson's Bay Company gave Small Pox blankets to "lazy drunkin troublemakers" (their descriptions) who had settled around their trading posts and begged for liquor. I never heard of the government, which came much later, being so accused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 02:59 PM

Indeed, JtS. But, I have heard it said. Hence, my *


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 11:16 PM

I think it was mostly a case of "benign neglect" in Canada rather than extermination. There were very few Indian wars in Canada following, of course, the extensive fighting that occurred in the French and Indian War that preceded the American Revolution.

During the same period, there were hundreds of Indian wars in the USA. The British government, on the whole, appears to have been intent on avoiding such conflicts, but it had the advantage of sending in the legal apparatus first into new territories, rather than allowing settlement first...with little or no law. It was the aggressive expansion of unregulated settlement, whiskey-trading, and other essentially "free market capitalist" policies that provoked most of the Indian wars in the USA. The indians, in essence, were sitting on precious land and resources that the settlers and business people wanted to exploit...so the Indians had to go.

In Canada, the crown went in first (in the form of the mounted police) and established the rule of law. Then settlers came in afterward. There was no lawless period in the territories, and whisky traders were not allowed to set up their operations. This greatly assisted in maintaining peace between Whites and Indians, because the law was there and the law was not to be questioned, and everyone understood how it worked, Indians included. It greatly protected the Indians from the worst abuses, such as the whisky traders and lawless men and gangs that terrorized the American West during the same period...a period of almost unbroken peace in the Canadian west (save for the Riel rebellion).

The British approach was essentially a socialist approach, in that the central government goes in first with police and courts and legal systems, and establishes the rule of law.

And that basic difference in national philosophy between the USA and Canada remains to this day. The USA has always encouraged unregulated laissez-faire aggressive profit-oriented business operations by private commerce of every sort to open up any new area that is annexed. Making money becomes the main motivator. The British back then brought in the rule of law first, and business afterward. That's a vital difference in social philosophy. What are you really in it for? Establishing social order? Or making a quick financial killing and getting something for nothing? In the American West, it was the latter, and that's what caused most of the Indian wars to occur. The Indians were getting robbed everywhere the USA settlers went, they had no legal recourse of any sort in the lawless territories, so they fought back with every means at their command. In the end, of course, they lost. And the Indians lost in Canada too in the end....but not in nearly so violent a manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: bobad
Date: 12 May 12 - 09:14 AM

Shooting targets resembling Trayvon Martin sold online

By Barbara Liston

ORLANDO, Florida | Fri May 11, 2012 6:16pm EDT

(Reuters) - Shooting targets resembling Trayvon Martin, the unarmed black teenager shot to death in Florida by a neighborhood watch volunteer, were offered for sale online before the ads were pulled by the auction site.

The sale at an online gun broker's auction site started on April 22 and offered 40 10-packs of paper targets, according to a screen shot of the auction ad by WKMG-TV in Orlando before the ad was taken down.

The targets featured a silhouette of a faceless person wearing a hooded sweatshirt, known as a hoodie, and holding a bag of Skittles candy and a container of tea. In an email exchange with WKMG, the seller claimed to be motivated by profit and to have sold out in two days.

Martin was wearing a hoodie and returning from a convenience store with Skittles and tea when he was shot on February 26 in Sanford, Florida. Neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, 28, is awaiting trial for second-degree murder in the racially charged case.

"Obviously, we support Zimmerman and believe he is innocent and that he shot a thug," the seller wrote on the site, according to WKMG-TV.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 12 - 01:45 PM

that should read "We WANT to .."support Zimmerman and believe he is innocent and that he shot a thug,"

Sickening............It was clear from the 1st reports that it was just a kid with candy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 May 12 - 05:55 PM

Good Ol' Florida - folks tend to forget that its one of the most virulent racist states in the Land Of The Free and always has been.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:11 PM

bobad... that is beyond sickening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:44 PM

I'm going to look into having a decal of George Zimmerman made up that you install in your toilet... Another one of Charlton Heston...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 12 May 12 - 06:53 PM

and...

...300

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 May 12 - 07:01 AM

""Martin was wearing a hoodie and returning from a convenience store with Skittles and tea when he was shot on February 26 in Sanford, Florida. Neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, 28, is awaiting trial for second-degree murder in the racially charged case.

"Obviously, we support Zimmerman and believe he is innocent and that he shot a thug," the seller wrote on the site, according to WKMG-TV.
""

Of course!! Every gun toting halfwit in Florida knows that the implements of choice for black burglars are tea and Skittles.

Jesus H Christ. How do they manage to survive without brain cells?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 12 - 05:47 PM

Friday night on Current TV's "The Young Turks," host Cenk Uygur charged that there's one party in the Trayvon Martin slaying that is truly, undeniably guilty, but it isn't a person.

"Guns are the real problem," he said.

Rolling recently released store camera video of 17-year-old Martin buying a pack of Skittles candy and an Arizona Iced Tea just moments before he encountered Zimmerman and was fatally shot, Uygur said, "That kid that you just saw — he's 17 years old — he would be alive today if George Zimmerman didn't have a gun."

Citing the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies's Small Arms Survey, Uyger pointed out that the United States is the most heavily armed nation in the world, with 90 guns per 100 people. Yemen is in second place, but only has 60 guns per 100 people. David Hemenway, director of the Harvard University Injury Control Research Center, authored a paper in 2011 called "Risks and Benefits of Guns in the Home," which stated that children in the U.S. are 11 times more likely to die in a gun-related accident than children in other developed nations. The Centers for Disease Control's statistics for gun fatalities in 2009 include 11,493 homicides, 18,735 suicides and 554 accidental deaths, a combined 31,347 gun deaths for the year.

"We've turned our country into the O.K. Corral," Uygur said, "We're sick with it, sick in the head with guns."

The host blames gun manufacturers and their powerful lobbying group, the National Rifle Association (NRA). "I know, I know — progressives aren't supposed to fight back on this. Nobody's supposed to fight back — we're just supposed to lie down and say, 'okay, NRA… I know you represent the gun manufacturers and then get rich off of all those people dying.' And you use all your fancy arguments and you've already bought all the politicians… But someone's gonna stand up to you and it's gonna happen right here. You don't like it, that's too bad."

Cenk Uygur: America is 'sick in the head with guns'


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 12 - 07:15 PM

Yup... We are a sick nation because if there is money involved then fuck free speech, certain conversation and sanity...

This is the free market of Ayn Rand...

100,000 Americans were shot last year and 100,000 more will be shot this year and 100,000 the year after that...

Guns in hands of otherwise sane people turn them into Rambo...

This is all very much insanity...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 19 May 12 - 07:22 PM

100,000? Got a source?


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 12 - 07:59 PM

Google it, Gn-ze... It ain't hard to find... It has been well reported... If I did clicky things I could give you 10 sources in 10 minutes...

But yer a smart guy so after you find the sources. please do a clicky, por favor...

The stats are 100% correct!!! I guarantee it or I will carry your jock strap fro a month... I'll even put it over my head...

Google it, please...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 19 May 12 - 08:06 PM

I googled it before I posted. Can't find any support for 100,000 shot. I'd say I am sorry but I think it's a good thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 12 - 08:48 PM

Google "Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence", Gn-ze...

Here's the deal with searches... The NRA clogs up the first 10 or so search pages so folks give up trying to get to real facts rather than their propaganda...

From the Brady link you make be able to find un-clogged info that substantiates what I have reported...

Yes, it is getting harder and harder and harder to get over the NRA block of information but it still can be done...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: bobad
Date: 19 May 12 - 09:41 PM

There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]

That's from Wikipedia

Whatever the hell the numbers are they way too many and are reflective of the number and availability of guns in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 19 May 12 - 11:04 PM

Guns don't kill people. Poverety, lack of education and ignorance kill people. Well educated and well fed people don't kill people. Guns are not the problem. People are the problem. If people were to take care of each other... oh, WTF... they won't... which is why the gun nuts think they need their guns. And, they have a right to their guns... just ask em. And ya know what? They are right. If they ain't doin anything wrong with their guns, they have a right to have their guns.

If all the "good" gun nuts and the anti-gun nuts got together and demanded that society addressed the poverty and social injustice that occurs EVERY minute of EVERY DAY we might see a solution to a serious problem. Until the real problems are addressed, bang bang shoot em up is bound to continue (with ILLEGAL guns). To cite legal and law abiding gun owners as the problem is just off the wall fuckin nuts. The longer this inane attitude is taken, the longer it will take to solve the real problem(s) and curtail this terrible affliction.

Ya wanna get guns off the street? Join the NRA and go to the meetings and SPEEK UP. Or start a new org... oh, gee, where have I heard that before?

C'mon... it ain't rocket science... get off yer ass and get the job done or stop that inane bullshit weening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 12 - 08:42 AM

Google up the Brady site...

Remember, wikipedia isn't factual oib everything and the gun-nuts grind out a lot of energy pushing facts down, down, down... If you Google up just about anything related to guns the first 3 or 4 pages will be propaganda that right winged bloggers are paid to clog up...

The Brady site will give ya'll other soources should you be interested...

BTW, I wouldn't go to an NRA meeting any more than I would go to a KKK meeting... And this from a former NRA member and NRA shoot club participant...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 12 - 09:56 AM

BTW, my stats are for ***all*** shooting victims... Not just those who die...

BTW, Part 2... I learned "gun safety" and marksmanship from the NRA... Back when I was a member everyone in the organization were just regular folks without political agendas... Today??? Not your grandfather's (or my) NRA...

BTW, Part 3... The House of Representatives just passed a repeal of the "multiple gun purchase notification" where when someone purchased a number of guns at the same time that ATF would be notified... So if you want to buy a U-Haul truck's worth of AK-47, a million rounds of ammo and a $2 book on how to make them fire automatically then according to the House of Reps that ain't no one, especially the federal government's business... Wonder what these people are going to say when an entire right winged militia shows up at a po0litical rally and guns down a couple thousand people??? Opp!!! Guns don't kill people, people kill people??? And fully automatic AK-47s kill lots of people real fast... That is why they are military weapons...

Never mind... All the sane arguments in the world can't go up against the powerful NRA... And if you present too many of them then one of their bobble-head worshipers will just kill you...

And the beat goes on...

BTW, here in NC cops are reluctant to pull people over for minor traffic violations without backup for fear of being shot...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 20 May 12 - 02:11 PM

"The House of Representatives just passed a repeal of the "multiple gun purchase notification""

That is sickening!


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 12 - 04:27 PM

Yup, it is, gn-ze... I mean, here we are supposedly all worried about terrorism but any whacked out person or group of people can now arm themselves equal to or better than law enforcement and no one will know...

But, here's the deal... This ain't going into law... The Senate won't let it get to Obama's desk...

But it does show just how little the House respects our safety...

BTW, did ya find that Brady site???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 20 May 12 - 05:32 PM

Bobert... Brady site... nope... didn't go lookin fer it. Musta missed why I shoulda. Too busy messin with other shit. If it's important, I will but if it's just more a tha same, well...


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 12 - 06:58 PM

It's not... It is run by the wife of Jim Brady, the Reagan assistant who was shot and paralyzed the day Reagan was shot... It's about the only real site to be found that documents its stats... And the 100,000 number of people shot (not all killed) is accurate...

BTW, don't ever try to find out how many cops have been shot in the last 10 years... Might take some serious plowing of NRA sites before you find the real numbers...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 12 - 07:03 PM

Wikipedia documents it's stats. Look at my link - every stat is referenced.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 12 - 07:07 PM

They, if I read their stuff correctly, are talking about homicides, bobadz...

The Brady people are talking about all shootings...

But when it comes to anything controversial, Wikipedia has a tendency to not be all that reliable... The moderators there have come under fire for not allowing corrections by certain groups of people...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 12 - 07:11 PM

My bad... It was only 97,000 people shot last year... Not 100,000...

B;~)


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 12 - 07:30 PM

BTW, two other sources:

1. Legal Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

2. United States Crime Rates 1960-2010

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 12 - 11:21 AM

The crazy people have guns because of the NRA. The Founding Fathers had no idea that the Second Amendment would be turned on its head. They had no idea that gun violence would be an epidemic in the U.S. supported by trigger happy gun owners who irresponsibly defend their weak position.

The solution is simple. More regulations that have impact rather than the Congress being controlled by the NRA.

The U.S. is now Dodge City and the polls as usual are inaccurate.

The U.S. is now the most trigger happy nation in the world.

There are more regulations against abortion rights than there are guns, today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 12 - 01:14 PM

Yup...


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 21 May 12 - 04:07 PM

Truly sad when the solutions with regard to legislation, although not perfect, could be implemented if all parties were reasonable about GOOD gun laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:02 PM

""Truly sad when the solutions with regard to legislation, although not perfect, could be implemented if all parties were reasonable about GOOD gun laws.""

There is only one party being unreasonable about Good Gun Laws Gnu, and that is the party which won't allow any change whatever, and has the money to buy politicians to enforce its will.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:20 PM

"GOOD gun laws"???

I'd settle with "fair gun laws"...

Right now??? There is not one single gun law that doesn't have a loophole... Not one... In other words, there are no real gun laws... Not one...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 12 - 07:27 PM

There is one good thing about the US gun law situation - the spectable of the nightmare you've got yourself trapped into provides a pretty solid safeguard against any nuts ever succeeding in watering down the gun regulations in my country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: gnu
Date: 21 May 12 - 08:06 PM

Don... "There is only one party being unreasonable about Good Gun Laws..."

Wrong. They see what happened in Canada and they won't give an inch because they are scared it will happen in the US. We have VERY good gun laws and very BAD gun laws. The bad ones are VERY bad... they CREATE criminal opportunities and have "allowed" serious crimes... robbery and murder. The criminals like the bad laws because THEY do not follow the good laws. Surprise, surprise.

Anyway, I am not gonna explain it all for the tenth + time. Fact is, BOTH sides need to talk. By you saying you can't talk with the other side because they won't listen... well, that fucks that then, doesn't it? May as well just give up and let the criminals win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 12 - 10:58 AM

""By you saying you can't talk with the other side because they won't listen... well, that fucks that then, doesn't it? May as well just give up and let the criminals win.""

America has already done that Gnu.

Show me just one example of the NRA or any of its members discussing any suggested change to the status quo.

Plenty changes have been suggested, some more reasonable than others, which proves that one side is open to discussion.

Show me anybody on the pro gun side who can say that.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: Bobert
Date: 22 May 12 - 01:01 PM

As with every other issue, the right wing in America won't compromise, won't listen and won't give an inch on anything... These people are as dogmatic as the Southern Democrats were in 1860... They want everything their way... You can't talk to people like this... What I can't believe is the number of Americans who go out and vote for these miserable people...

The worst part about these people is that they all seem to be eaten up with hatred for the government but when something bad happens to them have their hands out begging...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Guns & laws in the US
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 22 May 12 - 02:25 PM

Just noticed that "Gnu" is an anagram of "Gun". I'll be going now-)


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