BS: George Zimmerman to be Charged (Trayvon Martin

Subject: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:06 PM

Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey plans to announce as early as Wednesday afternoon that she is charging neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation.

Article

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:15 PM

It's about f****** time!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Beer
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:19 PM

Had me there Bobad until I opened the thread. I thought it was going to be you know who.
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:41 PM

"...according to a law enforcement official close to the investigation."

Who anonymously leaked this without permission... making it NOT official yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:48 PM

I hope they also charge NBC with *something* for editing the 911 call before they put the audio on a national news broadcast. They really stirred up some bad shit by doing it. Firing a high level guy and apologizing for "a bad mistake" just doesn't cut it for stirring up racial hatred the way they did. It's not just shameful, it's criminal in my opinion. People could have lost their lives over that crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 04:43 PM

NBC stirred up racial hatred? Wow, they must have some serious clout because as far back as I look at this nation's history, it has been spattered with the blood of innocent people over racial hatred--long before anyone every heard of NBC. No NBC doesn't stir up racial hatred--Americans stir up racial hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 04:47 PM

A white man follows a black teenager around the neighborhood and shoots him for "looking suspicious" and NBC is stirring up the hatred?

Tell me more...

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 04:48 PM

"Zimmerman to be Charged"

Good.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 05:10 PM

The NRA is loving it...

Ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 05:32 PM

Um- you mean now that they've let him escape and possibly flee to somewhere from which he can't be extradited?

Question: Was this done on purpose, or is it just another chapter in this absolute clusterfusk?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 05:46 PM

Well, they couldn't stop him if he hadn't been charged yet...

And NBC edited the tape so that the incident sounded different and much more racy, I mean, racist. That's why the guy got fired and yes, he was fomenting. And American!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 06:28 PM

From the NY Times:

"The Florida special prosecutor announced a second-degree murder charge on Wednesday against George Zimmerman in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.
   
Angela B. Corey, the prosecutor, said Mr. Zimmerman, 28, a crime watch volunteer, will appear before a magistrate within the next 24 hours. He is accused of fatally shooting Mr. Martin, an unarmed teenager, in a case that has captivated the country and brought to the fore issues of race, violence and precisely what constitutes self-defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 06:49 PM

I've listened to the tape and the edit and the Fox "News" commentary. Certainly the edit makes Zimmerman appear more guilty of racism, but even with that he appeared to be profiling, and wording things carefully. But even without that I am convinced that he is guilty. He stalked the kid and he killed the kid. You can't call it self defense when the shooter invites the situation.

Its like an old west gunfighter going up to a kid and saying draw! AND SHOOTING THE KID BECAUSE "he looked threatening as he ran away. I think that the race angle of this is very overplayed and the NUT JOB VIGILANTE angle as well as the NUT JOB FLORIDA LEGISLATURE angle are being underplayed.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 06:50 PM

Angela Corey is friggin' GREAT! The newspeople were their usual idiotic selves but Angela Corey is GREAT!

I have every confidence that this case will now be prosecuted to the best of their ability. Zimmerman has been arrested and is in custody. Took long enough but it got done right by this prosecutor.



Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 06:54 PM

Re the NBC 911 recording editing... Google it. I saw it on the Canuck Comedy channel on The Daily Show and it was in our local newspaper and on CNN and on FOX and on CBC and.... and on and on.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 07:05 PM

Here's where things are going to get real strange... Over the next 2 weeks Zimmerman will mysteriously come up with a million dollar legal dream team...

Who is going to be paying for that???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 07:06 PM

NPR said he's in custody. I suppose jail will be an interesting experience for Zimmerman. They took so long to charge him that there is probably an awful lot of opinion about him behind bars as there is on the outside.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 07:33 PM

There is a lot of opinion already... JtS wants to hang him RFN... right fuckin now!... no need for a trial... he is guilty, period!

JtS... did you get video while you witnessed what happened?

Appeared to be profiling? The tape doesn't indicate that. He stalked the kid? That's a leap. You say he shot the kid as he ran away... what/where is your support that the kid was shot in the back?

Why don't you wait for the trial? If he's guilty, I'll supply the rope and you can pull the lever. But, I ain't gonna give you ANY rope until he's proven guilty. Not simply THOUGHT guilty on a hunch and on unsupported accusations by someone who has no more info that the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Songwronger
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 07:50 PM

The last time I listened to NPR and Fox on the same day, they were pushing the same agenda. 1) Vladimir Putin is bad and the world needs to intercede in the Russian elections, and 2) Assad of Syria is bad and the world needs to launch a humanitarian invasion of the country to overthrow him. IDENTICAL stances reported from the right wing and the left wing media.

And now both the right and left wing media are hyping the Zimmerman/Martin thing. It's being done to distract you. It's being done to get your mind off Obama's tyrannical power grab with the NDAA and his endless wars.

Tune out the Trayvon Martin case. It's hate politics, and there's nothing you can do about it except feed the hate. Pharoah will always own you unless you learn to see through his tricks.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 08:11 PM

Songwronger-

You certainly are a breath of fresh air, or perhaps methane would be a more accurate description.

Zimmerman deserves a trial and now he'll have one. We'll have to wait and see what the decision is. That's the way the system works.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 08:15 PM

Methane, Charley...

Obama's endless wars???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 08:48 PM

Zimmerman will receive a trial. His victim didn't.

Angela Corey is adept and familiar with Stand Your Ground law, so there ain't much gonna get past her. Second degree has a maximum sentence in Florida of life.

(I got a buffalo head nickle says the Romney campaign would love to have Corey as a running mate.)

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 08:54 PM

Nah, Brucie, until Charles Manson was turned down for parole today he would have certainly been in the running for Romney's VP choice... Now he's stuck...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 01:14 AM

My understanding is that the kid was no where near his property. That he followed the kid. That Zimmerman called the police who told him not to confront the kid. Zimmerman confronted the kid and shot the kid.

Zimmerman had a gun.

The kid carried Skittles.

That is Murder pretty much anywhere but Sanford, Florida.

Now Angela Corey is saying it is a crime there as well.

He deserves a fair trial, but if Zimmerman has done what he is reported to have done, he deserves to go to jail. And the world, especially would be heroes in Florida need to see the news coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 04:47 AM

I don't see why it's second degree. It seems premeditated to me. Chasing after someone with a gun. Maybe the trial will reveal.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 07:48 AM

Zimmerman didn't leave home with the intent to kill Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 07:58 AM

There was a time when, if a black person was believed to have killed a white person, the accused would be lynched, without any formalities.

There seems to be a strong public feeling, in this case, that justice requires the same procedure to be applied in reverse. I can't consider that as an improvement.

There certainly appears to be strong evidence that Zimmerman killed Martin without just cause. But could we maybe have a trial before he's punished? "Due process" can't be limited to nice people, if we want it to be due process at all.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 08:14 AM

I fear that what we are going to see is a rerun of the O.J. Simpson trial...

But with that said, karma caught up with O.J. and karma will catch up with Zimmerman, as well...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 09:10 AM

I have found the following on the internet: -

"The unlawfull killing of another human being with malice aforethought. =D
When the killing was planned and deliberate, when the victim was a member of law enforcement, or when the killing occurs in conjunction with another offence such as sexual assault, kidnapping or hijacking
Murder in the 1st degree-In most states, first-degree murder is defined as an unlawful killing that is both willful and premeditated, meaning that it was committed after planning or "lying in wait" for the victim..Most states also adhere to a legal concept known as the "felony murder rule," under which a person commits first-degree murder if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- usually arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, or robbery.
*
Second-degree murder in most States is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.
*
Third-degree murder (most always called Manslaughter)
In most States if a murder does not qualify by statute for first-degree murder,or second-degree murder. Then it may be classed as 3rd degree murder (Manslaughter) this occurs if mitigating factors were involved in the killing, such as adequate provocation by the victim, or the absence of intent or recklessness on the part of the defendant.
Usually describes pre-mediated (i.e.: pre-planned) murder.
In most states, first-degree murder is defined as an unlawful killing that is both willful and premeditated, meaning that it was committed after planning or "lying in wait" for the victim.
For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. Three days later, Dan waits behind a tree near Victor's front door. When Victor comes out of the house, Dan shoots and kills him.
Most states also adhere to a legal concept known as the "felony murder rule," under which a person commits first-degree murder if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies -- usually arson, burglary, kidnapping, rape, and robbery.
For example, Dan and Connie rob Victor's liquor store, but as they are fleeing, Victor shoots and kills Dan. Under the felony murder rule, Connie can be charged with first-degree murder for Dan's death"


What the local rules in Texas are may be muddier...

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 10:15 AM

"What the local rules in Texas are may be muddier..."

??????????????

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: meself
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 10:28 AM

Midchuck: Can you point us to anything on-line to support your contention that there is some kind of widespread call for Zim to be lynched? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I haven't encountered any of this - but I'm a long way from the action.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 10:38 AM

I'm with Richard. I think the guy was probably just itching to use his gun, and looking for trouble. And if they can find someone who can and will testify to his having made racist or inflammatory statements, 1st degree murder should be possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 11:01 AM

And there's the rub. It's a case that has to 'go right' and it's politically hot. It is clear that the trial will be about Zimmerman, but equally clear that the verdict will have to be fair in the minds of all communities. I think LA 1965 and LA 1992 come to peoples' minds, because viscerally we know there is an unfairness at work here in the structure and intent of some laws. This trial could end up being more about equality before the law than anything else. When please and thank you stop working, tough shit and fuck you are often perceived to be the only other path, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 11:47 AM

I'm happy to say that none of our opinions really matter. What's going to count is what a jury of Zimmerman's peers think. And the judge. And that's where it should be - in front of a jury.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 11:58 AM

It will be interested, if he was knocked down and beaten as he says then the use of deadly force is authorized for his life was threatened, However, the police ordered him to stand down so he put himself in harms way without justification ... going to be interesting to see how it shakes out ... Florida has too loose carry laws and little training ... very disturbing to me

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 11:58 AM

""Zimmerman didn't leave home with the intent to kill Martin.""

It seems at least possible, if not probable, that he left his vehicle with that intention Bruce, and in any case the higher charge should be tested in court, since they can always drop to the lower.

It is my understanding that, charged with second degree, he cannot then be found guilty of first degree.

If that is correct, due process for Trayvon Martin is not being pursued.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:00 PM

And remember too that he left that vehicle in direct disobedience of police instructions.

It is fairly clear that he was looking for trouble, something for which he did have a reputation.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:05 PM

I am working slowly towards the realisation that murder is I think a common law matter in each state of the USA and the local courts will therefore have defined by the use of precedent the mental state (mens rea) necessary to distinguish one type of killing from another - subject to local statute.

Have we a lawyer from that state amongst us or even a law graduate from that state? Or is there someone here who might inspire someone from the law department of a university in that state to comment?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:06 PM

Don
that would be a terrible mistake, his attorney's would be able to take that first degree apart because there has to be clearly premeditated. Then he is charged with nothing ever again. 2nd degree is passion, acted in a heated moment ... my guess is the best they will get is manslaughter and 3 years if the jury doesn't believe his self defense argument

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:08 PM

I am not saying what my preference would be, Don, just stating what I see as some realities to do with this particular case. I trust things are good with you and that your health is up there.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:17 PM

Jack said "My understanding is that the kid was no where near his property."

I saw the map on TV. He was less than a 'block', a few hundred feet from the place he & his father were visiting. When followed, he tried to lose Zimmerman by (possibly running) down a line of apartments that were not a 'direct' line to his door. Still, he was shot less than 100 yards from his destinaion.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:20 PM

Guest Dexter, "The Mills Building at 1700 Pennsylvania Avenue is a 165,638 square foot mixed-use building located one block west of the White House." The address I think you meant is 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:28 PM

Ol' Dex is apparently another racist bigot for Jesus living in a fact-free environment.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: pdq
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 12:28 PM

However, the police ordered him to stand down...

Not exactly. The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that", meaning follow the suspicious pedestrian. If the cop who showed up had said that it would have some weight behind it. The dispatcher has no power to tell a citizen what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:01 PM

In New York State there was a similar situation with road rage. One guy cut the other off, words were exchange, one guy pulled off the road and the other pulled in behind him. Both got out of the car and one guy was beating the other pretty good. The guy getting wacked pulled a weapon and killed the other guy. His claim was self defense and it was to the extend the guy could have killed him, however, The jury found him guilty of manslaughter not 2nd degree murder because he left the car, didn't need to follow the guy, took matters into his own hands etc ...

In other words he put himself into that situation where a weapon had to be drawn and used.   Kinds sounds like this is the same but we will see since I really don't know the facts

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:10 PM

When my county judge issues a carry permit. He tells you right out that you have been given a great responsibility, He says you are not the police and it is your duty to avoid wherever possible a situation that requires you to use the thing. He doesn't want people playing cops ... it is purely for self defense in a life or death situation that you could not avoid. That is were I would be very interested to see how Florida law sorts this out.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: meself
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:21 PM

Martin's mother herself has just stated that she thinks it was an "accident", that "things just got out of hand". A very gracious lady. Sorry, I'm having internet trouble; can't provide the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: meself
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:22 PM

Here it is: Martin's mother.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:25 PM

"Jury of his peers" (?)

An all-white southern jury would acquit him.

An all-black jury would convict him.

Any jury they pick would have to be mixed-race. So it'll be a hung jury and a mistrial. Then they'll try him again with the same result. After three or four trials they'll give up and probably let him cop a plea to something very minor indeed, to save face.

That's my prognostication.

P.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:25 PM

If under the Florida stand your ground law is taken into the equation I doubt they can prosecute him for anything. I am glad we have no such law here as we are required to retreat where possible and avoid situations. Sadly I don't think that is a good law at all for it leads to this stuff where nobody wins here and someone ends up dead

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Arkie
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:26 PM

Knowing nothing about either person or the real circumstances leading to the shooting I cannot take either side. However, I would think that a situation involving a death should be investigated carefully and without bias. There are certainly questions that need to be answered and if Zimmerman was being beaten there should be physical signs of that struggle. If he had a broken nose there should be some evidence of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:28 PM

And even more disturbing is the young man who was killed saw some guy with a gun confronting him and was within his rights to use deadly force to protect himself also ... That stand your ground is a terrible law because no one retreated and now a young man is dead

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:41 PM

And someone has to explain to me the meaning of that law to stand your ground. There is no shame in running to avoid a bad outcome. Hell I have done it many times when I was younger and playing and some seedy bars, even though I knew they couldn't hurt me, I was a black belt and special forces instructor ... i didn't want to get hurt nor hurt anyone else ... so what is the purpose of that law anyway? to see who has the bigger dick

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 03:51 PM

not about Bob then....

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 04:00 PM

from reading on the web, I guess the spirit of the original law was in regard to home invasion ... protecting your home. Some states like Florida extended it to anyplace that you were legally allowed to be. Yikes.   We should all take a class in ironman running 101. I use to give self defense lessons to women .. first and foremost .. get outta dodge if you can .. Defend only when you cannot

still seems like good advice as the grand master of Kuntao taught me

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Paul Burke
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 04:21 PM

It is not just Zimmerman who is on trial here. It is also Florida, and the whole American system of justice. If you can not ensure that the states apply the law impartially, the USA is a failed state like Somalia.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 05:03 PM

Bill, I said that Zimmerman was not on or near his own property. Thus the "self defense" claim was weakened. The question the trial will answer is can you go out into the world looking for a fight then claim self defense when you end the fight you started with a bullet?

.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 05:49 PM

Jack... a misprint & misunderstanding from that?

"My understanding is that the kid was no where near his property. That he followed the kid. That Zimmerman called the police who told him not to confront the kid. Zimmerman confronted the kid and shot the kid."

Zimmerman did live at one edge of the complex...but obviously not near his own home during this episode.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 06:25 PM

Conjecture after conjecture after conjecture. So many postulations without any support whatsoEVER? It's like a dog chasing it's tail and spinning out of control and a clusterfuck all in one. Jaysus! Stop it!

I could throw out some questions and arguements that would take the piss out of some of the inane crap I have read here but that would simply be inane on my part. Fact is, justice will get done as best it can be done and we should all hope and pray that it gets done instead of having a virtual lynch mob which does nothing else than... ahhhh... fuck it. Have fun with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 06:37 PM

Gnu, I am not engaging in conjecture. I am commenting on what was reported about the incident. If the reporting had described a situation where Zimmerman was justified in what he had done. It would be of no interest to me. It is the appearance that justice has not been done in the interest of that kid and in the interest of general public safety that concerns me.

It concerns me to the point that when Martin's mother says it was an accident. I have to disagree. It appears that Zimmerman and Zimmerman alone created the situation in which the accident occurred.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 06:56 PM

The appearance that justice has not been done? Goodness gracious. That is what my SECOND post on this thread was all about...

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From:gnu - PM
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:15 PM

It's about f****** time!
***************************************************

I didn't say YOU were conjecturing. But, if you are saying it APPEARS that whatever the fuck, you are. You disagree with his mother? Maybe she knows more than you do? That's the problem. What "APPEARS" without support is conjecture.

Right. I shant be back to this thread. When there is a thread discussing the trial, maybe I will read it. This thread has degraded into crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 07:00 PM

Once someone is charged it ought to be recognised that it's all sub judice, and all comment on it should be shelved until the trial is over. Of course you don't seem to do it that way in the USA, but maybe the Mudcat should operate to a higher standard.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 07:17 PM

Yeah Gnu, I explained my disagreement. Maybe if we can get a victim's relative to forgive him we should pardon Charlie Manson?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 07:18 PM

Why, Mcgrath?

Can a suitable person point us to the exact words of the Florida "Stand your round" statute?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 07:38 PM

The best outcome would be for states to revisit these NRA sponsored "castle laws", also known as "stand you ground"... BTW, the wording is so close from state to state there is no doubt that these laws were put in place by a single lobby...

These are seriously messed up laws...

I mean, if I get pissed off at you because I think you should have used your turn signal and go up to your car and scream at you and then you make any movement that I think is threatening I can just blow you the fuck up???

Anyone who wants to defend this thinking then please do so...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 07:58 PM

""Sadly I don't think that is a good law at all for it leads to this stuff where nobody wins here and someone ends up dead""

I'm afraid that you are wrong about that.

Whatever happens the black guy loses, especially if he is an unarmed schoolboy.

Fortunately for black British schoolboys, there is a reasonable force requirement which would see Zimmerman convicted of at the least manslaughter, but, in these circumstances, more probably racist murder.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 06:47 AM

Why should we try to operate to a higher standard than the American media, Richard? That's a question about moral philosophy.   Basically it's an expression of a personal view, and of a hope that it is widely shared. Akin to similar judgements about all kinds of other actions. Why shouldn't we cheat or lie, etc.

......................

Fortunately for black British schoolboys... But not of course for Brazilian electricians sittibg in tube trains...

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Arkie
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 09:55 AM

Hopefully, the hearing will answer some questions and provide some meaningful explanation for what is known.

Zimmerman was carrying a deadly weapon and looking for a threat to the area where he patrolled.

He thought a black male wearing a hoodie and carrying a paper bag looked suspicious.

He followed his 'suspect' (how far??? for how long???

He called police.

He was told by dispatcher not to confront 'suspect'.

Zimmerman shot suspect claiming self-defense.

From this point we have only Zimmerman's account.

Evidence of head injuries and a broken nose is certainly questionable.

If Martin did confront Zimmerman, one could argue that Zimmerman provoked and escalated the situation by following and that could be considered posing a threat in itself.

The court will need to decide if charge of manslaughter is justified.

Should the license to carry a weapon be revoked

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:08 AM

Why should we try to operate to a higher standard than the American media

Because its the right thing to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:09 AM

Is it not the case that at one stage Martin had avoided Zimmerman, but Zimmerman persisted in looking for Martin and then found him again?

No matter how I look at this it seems to me that Zimmerman hunted Martin down, with the obvious consequence that Martin would feel threatened.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:53 AM

2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE[20]
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

It goes on from there into the right to defend one's home and to "immunity from criminal prosecution."

From Wikipedia

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 12:45 PM

Thank you. That's a weird piece of drafting. The first part permits the use of force (even if wholly disproportionate so long as not deadly) but ONLY in response to a threat of unlawful force or reasonable fear of same.

So arguably Martin was entitled to use non-deadly force against Zimmerman.

But the second part allows the use of deadly force (to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm etc) whether or not that imminent death arises from unlawful force.

That would appear to justify killing or eating the cabin boy to avoid your own starvation. Or shooting the other passengers if there was only one parachute and the plane was going down.

Unless the second part is restricted by the first, in which case assuming Martin was entitled as I suggest above, his force was not unlawful, so Zimmerman could not use deadly force.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: meself
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 03:18 PM

When Martin's mother said that she believes that the killing was an "accident",it's clear that she did NOT mean that Zim does not bear any responsibility for it - she seemed to mean that she believes he did not make a cool, calculated decision to kill her son, but that he did so in a moment of heightened emotion and anxiety. At least, that's the way I took it. She later backtracked - perhaps "on the advice of counsel" -, saying, in effect, that she had meant that it was an accident that Zim and Martin had crossed paths.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 04:12 PM

If the lawyers are any good, everything you hear from either side from now on will be filtered and slanted to make their case look the whole truth and nothing but.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 05:48 PM

Sooo... you DO understand how the legal system works... bravo.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:01 AM

"Why should we try to operate to a higher standard than the American media"

Good lord, is there a lower standard?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 08:51 AM

Richard-

"That would appear to justify killing or eating the cabin boy to avoid your own starvation. Or shooting the other passengers if there was only one parachute and the plane was going down."

Excellent! You may have inspired a new song titled "Stand Your Ground."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 12:24 PM

IMO, Zimmerman did not leave his vehicle with the intent to kill Martin but he DID leave his vehicle with the belief that Martin was up to no good and was looking for houses to burgle. He confronted Martin and told him to get the fuck out of his neighborhood before he got killed. Martin told him that he--Zimmerman--had no right to speak to him that way and it wasn't his business what he--Martin--was doing there. At that point, Martin started to walk away and an enraged Zimmerman then pulled his weapon and said something to the effect of, "I gave you a chance, now you're gonna die!" At that point, Martin began to shout for help (heard doing so on the 911 tape--and, no, that ian't Zimmerman). With no help coming, Martin may have decided his only chance of getting out of this alive was to attack Zimmerman. Maybe he knocked Zimmerman down, maybe not, but either way, Zimmerman then shot him.

I believe Zimmerman thought he had killed at least a potential burglar the whole time he was in police custody. Why he wasn't arrested is still not clear to me. I don't see how SYG would have protected him since he initiated the confrontation (or he wouldn't have left his vehicle).

I believe if he tries to use SYG as his defense, it will backfire horribly. SYG can't defend you if you kill an innocent, unarmed person--it just makes you look like you never gave that person a chance. His lawyer would be wise to avoid using SYG as a defense.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 12:57 PM

It may be the first time I largely agree with josepp.

Any reasonable person must admit that Zimmerman originated the confrontation, and that Martin was doing NOTHING illegal at the time. Once Martin had been followed and either threatened or grabbed by someone who was NOT a police officer, SYG would apply to him....Martin! It was just his bad luck that whatever he did to defend himself against Zimmerman provoked gun use! (It MAY be that Zimmerman did not display his gun until the struggle ensued! Martin may have had little warning what he was dealing with)

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 01:25 PM

I believe Zimmerman pulled his weapon only after he and Martin exchanged words. But I also think Zimmerman wanted to provoke an angry response from Martin so that he--Zimmerman--could have the final word by pulling his gun. I don't think he thought it through beyond that point and didn't count on Martin attacking him or figured if Martin did attack him, he was just killing some scum-ass burglar who had it coming.

What I'm curious of is the witness's statement that she saw Zimmerman standing over Martin's body with his hands on him. What was he doing? Looking for a weapon? Was he convinced Martin was armed and that he would be exonerated for shooting him? I just wonder what was going through his mind at that moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 01:26 PM

Hey, makes you wonder if MARTIN was 'standing his ground'...only he didn't have a gun!!
Regardless, it's in the courts now...let's just hope both Martin and Zimmerman get justice. We are not privy to all the facts, so jumping to conclusions, one way or the other should not force a decision, one way, or the other.
As my Dad used to say, "The wheels of time roll slow, but grind fine!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 01:34 PM

Whether we have all the facts or not, I think it's indisputable that Zimmerman believed Martin was a burglar and that he was going to teach this guy a lesson and send a message. I can't imagine Trayvon Martin could be dead otherwise. I think Zimmerman may be truly sorry for shooting him now that he knows Martin was an innocent person but that doesn't excuse his actions. It's why we don't legally countenance vigilantism in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 02:55 PM

""Conjecture after conjecture after conjecture. So many postulations without any support whatsoEVER?""

No conjecture about the following FACTS Gnu:-

A seventeen year old unarmed schoolboy, who was legitimately visiting a relative in a gated community, lies dead.

He was followed and accosted by an older, heavier man carrying a handgun, who shot him.

The boy's only crime was buying candy, though he may have defended himself from the gunman with his fists, definitely not unreasonable force in almost any jurisdiction, when faced with the threat of a bullet.

Anything there that is ""conjecture, or postulation without any support whatsoEVER?""

Care to explain why the boy's "stand your ground" action is trumped by that of the gunman?

Something definitely "coloured" the opinions of Sanford law enforcement.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,LIghter
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:15 PM

When the police dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that" (follow M.), Z. replied, very calmly, "OK."

If the dispatcher had said decisively, "Stop following him now," maybe none of this would have happened.

How M's girlfriend testifies about what she heard on the cellphone may be crucial.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:55 PM

I don't know if the dispatcher had the authority to order Zimmerman to stop following. But if she didn't that might change. Give them the authority to give that order and if the caller disregards it, they are in violation of the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Janie
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 04:59 PM

Don, in the fwiw department, out of all that has been published and commented upon, some of the material is information that appears to be actual fact and about which there is no dispute, regardless of one's opinion or perspective. I think gnu made it clear he was commenting on the postulations. I don't quite understand why you interpreted his comments to apply to what is actually known.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Janie
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 05:40 PM

josepp and Bill D.,

The scenerio josepp describes is one I can certainly easily imagine   to have occurred based on what has been published thus far. It is a scenerio I have myself speculated upon. For myself, however, I don't see where there is enough actually known from what has been published for me to have developed something so strong as a belief.

I have an opinion. That opinion is subject to constant revision as I sort through what I read, weigh how credible or objective I historically consider the media outlet to be in presenting "news," consider what I know to be my own biases and cognitive filters, etc., in an effort to account for my own subjectivity. I am aware I can never fully detect the influences of my own subjectivity, and also that my subjectivity will color how I assess every tiny tidbit of information I take in. The same holds true for every other human being on the planet.

I apologize if this sounds arrogant, but discussions and debate on important issues such as this on Mudcat, and among human beings in general, might actually lead somewhere if more people would do the same.

Of course, it means my posts don't make for interesting reading....

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 06:32 PM

Don... "followed and accosted". Have you any support for your statement that the lad was accosted? If so, please cite your resource(s).

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 07:05 PM

Facts. We don't know the facts. That is what I have been saying all along. A court of law will decide the case which, and it's about time, will go to trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Row 3 in the Gallery
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 08:55 PM

I've spent a lot of time in court recently, and watched while all sorts of offenders were arraigned--they are a generally sorry bunch, and generally have a stupid, morning after sort of, "How did I end up here?" look about them. Not so Zimmerman. He was attentive, focussed, and looked ready to take on whatever was coming. Not the man who is described in the press, by a long shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 09:07 PM

The bad news here is that George Zimmerman may indeed be found under Florida law not guilty...

If there is any good news is that the NRA sponsored "castle laws" may go down over this...

They are ridiculous and insane...

The way the NRA has written them and had their people in various state legislatures I can...

... get pissed off at you, confront you, scare the hell out of you and then shoot you saying that you made some kinda move that was threatening???

That's the story here... We have some very fucked up and insane laws that make $$$ for the NRA and gub shops and make life much more dangerous for everyone else...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 09:13 PM

josepp-

Your recent scenario makes sense to me, and you're right it doesn't justify shooting anyone. It's a logical chain of events which escalates to murder, sad to say.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 09:29 PM

The problem for Zimmerman is that he claims self-defense but that's going to be hard to prove when the last 40 seconds of Martin's life are on tape and he was clearly not attacking Zimmerman, he was screaming for help. He may have lunged at Zimmerman just before being shot but that doesn't constitute an attack. He might have only wanted to knock him down and run, he may have be trying to run but had to get past Zimmerman to do it. We don't know.

I don't see a self-defense plea sticking. I see him being found guilty by a reasonable jury. That is Zimmerman's only hope--he gets a jury full of shitheads which are quite common in this country. Otherwise he will be found guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 12 - 09:36 PM

Nan, I hope you are right, joez...

I remember the O.J. trial, tho...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 09:09 AM

""Facts. We don't know the facts. That is what I have been saying all along. A court of law will decide the case which, and it's about time, will go to trial.""

First the "followed and accosted". Source:- the telephone conversation reported by the girl. Can you think of any way she could have made that up when the other participant was dead.

Then facts:- Care to tell me which of the following is not a fact?

A seventeen year old unarmed schoolboy, who was legitimately visiting a relative in a gated community, lies dead.

He was followed and accosted by an older, heavier man carrying a handgun, who shot him.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 11:39 AM

Sounds 'nice'..but don't intentionally OMIT that when Zimmerman was told to NOT follow Martin, that Zimmerman, ACCORDING TO THE ACCOUNT YET TO ENTERED INTO COURT, turned and went back to his car..and was followed by Martin, who confronted Zimmerman, and accosted him.
Do we know that for sure???....or don't want to believe it for sure???.. THAT'S WHY we have the court to figure it out.

I think that the 'onlooking speculators' should stop their rooting for one way or another. You don't KNOW for sure, what the deal is....and either side could be making an ass of themselves, jumping to conclusions.....based on their political leanings....instead of the the FACTS.
Oh, and by the way, if you want to believe the TRUTH, I would NOT rely on info coming through the political filter, from either side. Their track record for telling the truth without spinning the shit out of something has really NOT been that reliable....now has it?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 01:30 PM

"... turned and went back to his car."

His car was nowhere near where the scuffle took place. The shooting happened between a row of houses, near a sidewalk. Seems unlikely that a scared kid would follow & attack someone he was only seconds before running AWAY from.

If this goes to a jury...remember, juries who find a guilty verdict can opt for a lesser decision of manslaughter, rather than 2nd degree murder.

If I had to lay a $.25 bet, I'd bet on manslaughter....

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 03:41 PM

I'll take that bet, Bill, but to be fair to you, I'll give you 3 to 1 odds. If you win you get six bits.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 05:12 PM

Unfortunately, I agree with you, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 06:28 PM

Don..."the telephone conversation reported by the girl."

Got a link?

As far as Zimmerman retreating after being told "We don't need you to do that." (which is the way I heard it... not... "do not") and then being attacked and shoved to the ground, I heard that as well. And that he had his head smashed into the pavement. Now, AGAIN, there ya go. Lots of crap floating around in this cesspool of misinformation. And, no, I can't provide any links... I read at least fifty news items in the first few days... and none of them really "lined up".

All in all, whatever comes out of the trial, I hope the families invovled get some peace from some proper justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 06:36 PM

""Oh, and by the way, if you want to believe the TRUTH, I would NOT rely on info coming through the political filter, from either side. Their track record for telling the truth without spinning the shit out of something has really NOT been that reliable....now has it?""

How do you spin a dead seventeen year old, armed with a bag of sweets, and a an armed vigilante?

Do tell by what twisted logic you imagine the boy going after the gunman!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 07:13 PM

Ever been slapped with a bag of Skittles?

That can really smart!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 08:25 PM

Don... we don't know what happened. Apparently. Near as I know. At least, I don't.

You got that link that I asked you for yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 09:00 PM

"We also have the witnesses who called 911, ear-witness DeeDee, two eyewitnesses who gave completely different versions of what they say they saw through their windows on the tragic night. DeeDee, a valuable witness, was never interviewed by the Sanford police. Heard in a telephone conversation on CNN, the teen girl said that on the night her boyfriend was killed, he told her a man was following him. She said she told him to walk as fast as he could but he couldn't lose the man. DeeDee said she told Trayvon to run."

That is from (takes a few seconds to load)

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11907966-zimmerman-charged-with-2nd-degree-murder-for-killing-trayvon-finally-a-commen

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 12 - 09:23 PM

Zimmerman and his team have had over a month to come up with "the Zimmerman story"... The problem here is that that is what it is: a story...

His buddy, Joe, was out there spinning the story on every channel on the TV until Zimmerman's attorneys told Zimmerman that this was a bad idea...


Bottom line??? We've half a dozen stories and re-writes...

This case isn't about "Zimmerman says"... Screw Zimmerman... He'll lie his ass off... This case is about everything else sans the Zimmerman stories...


We've hear enough re-writes...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 02:10 AM

Bobert: "Zimmerman and his team have had over a month to come up with "the Zimmerman story"... The problem here is that that is what it is: a story..."

Biased news services and their team have had over a month to come up with "the altered story"... The problem here is that that is what it is: a story...and some still hold onto it.
Best to let the courts do their deal...OK?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 03:12 AM

Fortunately for Bobert, American citizens are entitled to read and think and write and hold opinions, GfS. And just as Zimmerman is entitled to (finally!) a trial date, Bobert and the rest of us are entitled to hold and discuss opinions. Formed with the aid of, or in spite of, the news media. The court of public opinion has been effectively muzzled. Now you can stop scolding others for discussing ramifications of the case.

gnu, Here is a link about the phone call with the girlfriend.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 10:28 AM

Add to that the video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station.

Both his face and the back of his head are clearly visible (especially in full screen view) and completely devoid of any sign of injury.

http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11814604-new-bombshell-police-video-shows-trayvons-killer-zimmerman-liedwatch-his-head


Now, he must have known that this or any other video would prove him a liar, yet he told the story about having a broken nose and a deep gash on the back of his head.

Either he has miraculous recuperative powers, or he believed that there would be no further action against him and the story would never be questioned.

Which of these is most likely?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: John P
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 11:30 AM

Well, I hope Zimmerman gets jailed forever. Not because he shot Martin (although that would be a god reason if he gets convicted), but because he was walking around with a gun in his pocket looking for trouble.

I also hope that everyone who lives in the gated community gets sued so hard they all end up living in cardboard boxes in alleys. They had a "block watch volunteer" who was armed and willing to use his gun. There isn't any word for that except vigilante. What did they think was going to happen? I wish they could all be convicted of manslaughter.

I also hope all the Florida legislators who voted for the SYG law get sued for everything they own. And then the NRA for paying for the law to get passed. And then everyone who has ever given money to the NRA. People who promote deadly violence should be hounded out of our society.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Row 3 in the Gallery
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 12:01 PM

Two days ago, someone broke into a bunch of cars in our development (not gated, but with restricted access) and stole GPSs(mine too). The damage to cars was much greater than the value of the stolen goods. I am a bleeding heart liberal, so I wasn't angry, but a few of my neighbors were, and it was easy imagine some of them "Going Zimmerman".

On the other hand, many years ago, I was one of three teenagers in a car that broke down on a back road about 100 yards from a small house. The guy in the house ran out and started shooting at us because he thought we were some other kids who had drinking parties at the end of the road on Saturday nights. No one was hurt, but the sheriff wouldn't do anything--they guy who shot at us was a deputy.

So you can take sides if you want, but don't kid yourselves, One kid is dead, another one's life is ruined. It's already too late for "justice".

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 01:13 PM

Justice is what people expect. Law is what they get.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 07:28 PM

Din has is right... Zimmerman claims to have had his nose broken... Bull... I've had my nose broken twice (once in football and the 2nd in a fight which I was told I won (???)) and broken noses bleed like a stick pig... I mean, serious blood and black eyes go along with them...

Any ER doctor has seen enough of them to substantiate what
I have said... So if you find one lie then there's a good chance there are plenty others...

If quilt or innocence is to found based solely on Zimmerman and/or his lawyer's stories there will be justice here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Apr 12 - 09:07 PM

The lamestream media is having trouble selling this story now. At least it showed Obama's shameless racism. He might have been able to provocateur some race riots before his "my son would have looked like Trayvon" statement, but now everyone knows he's a cheap race peddler. Hopefully he won't be able to use race rioting as his October Surprise now.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: meself
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 01:28 AM

You're out of your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 01:36 AM

Bobert: "I've had my nose broken twice (once in football and the 2nd in a fight which I was told I won (???)) and broken noses bleed like a stick pig... I mean, serious blood and black eyes go along with them..."

Keep it up, and you can go for three!

Just teasin', Bobert, but how could I resist an opening like that?!?!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Row 3 in the Gallery
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 03:33 AM

You are right, meself. I've met crackheads that were more grounded in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 03:50 AM

gnu: "Sooo... you DO understand how the legal system works... bravo."

yeah..and this works both ways:

On the 'other side of money' there is no law.

Cool line, huh?

Bow,
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 06:17 AM

And every black parent in the country would be thinking "that could be my son", and probably some of the white ones, too, and it's playing the race card to say it?

It's playing the race card to say that's it's playing the race card.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 12:14 PM

I no longer read the "song"

All I see is the "wronger"

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 11:22 PM

Do some web searches on blacks being targeted in Los Angeles by Mexican gangs. Where's Obama's weepy talk on that issue? And what does he do about the problem? He allows his Attoney General Holder to smuggle guns across the border to arm the Mexican gangs. Yeah, Obama's just a font of compassion.

But he's a politician and he does what he has to do. Same as Bush, Clinton, all of them. All scum, all killers, all playing the part of wholesome and caring leaders, all bullshit. When men like that can clusterbomb cities, how much could they REALLY care for an individual?

Obama's kind of out-ghoulished the others though, by running that fantasy of Trayvon Martin looking like his son. How sick is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 12 - 11:49 PM

Hey-hey Songwronger!...
Don't know about the 'ghoulish' deal...but you're right about some of your other stuff....however, the gun smuggling was not because it's blacks versus Mexicans....it has more to do with makin' some bucks from the drug business, ala Coke and the Contras...or heroin and Vietnam prolonging, and the 'Phoenix Program' .....or Afghanistan. this is BIG business, pal!
Remember Hassenfus's C-5A gettin' shot down, with the 'goods' on board?
Jimmy Seal??....Mena, Arkansas??? (and who was Governor of Arkansas then??)
Now I don't really want to go into that AGAIN.....but YES, things are not all on the up&up with our 'trusted' politicians, and some of their 'special interests'....
....but, I think a lot of the 'Catters are familiar with the general story....(sorta)..but if it's a Democrat Administration, it doesn't bother them, as much as a Republican administration....even though it's both...just the 'cover story' is changed, to protect the guilty!

..and all the 'political corruption' shit....we all know it's out there..we know they are fucking up everything for bucks and power..both sides, doesn't matter....music is what is really happening. That way we're reaching people...not fucking them over.

Regards, just the same!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 01:22 AM

Oh look! The pot and kettle are of an accord.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 02:06 AM

...and you're just 'out there' in the 'dark-land'???
Come on, if you don't know about what we're talking about, look it up.
if you want some 'key words' for your search engine, I'll be glad to give you a few. The testimony at the Iran-Contras Senate hearings and Congress, you could look at..Blow you away!
....unless all you got was the media's version, complete with 'commentary'


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 02:38 PM

Why does this particular Pot and Kettle pair always seem to be boiling? Too much fire and not enough meat?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 02:52 PM

You've got it right, Jack! Let's tighten it up and make a bumper sticker--how about "Too much heat, not enough meat"?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 03:10 PM

All heat and no light, to be certain.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 03:18 PM

Knife and fork upon the table - ain't no pork up in the pan...

H. Ledbetter Esq.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 05:21 PM

"Come on, if you don't know about what we're talking about, look it up."

On what? Bob Livingston's "Personal Liberty" web site?
Rush Limbaugh's web site?
The GOP.com web site?
Robin Leach?
Ann Coulter?
The RightWing News web site (there IS one by that name).
Or the ObamaCrimes web site?

Oh, yeah! The garbage dumps and septic tanks are out there all right. They contain rubbish and human waste, and they attract various kinds of vermin.

I haven't looked, but I'll bet there is even one out there that says that, not only is Barack Obama not even an American citizen, he was actually born on Procyon IV and is here to prepare earth for the coming alien invasion.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 05:32 PM

Too much heat, not enough meat"?

I like! it!

or...

Less Heat! More Meat!

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 05:43 PM

Why does this particular Pot and Kettle pair always seem to be boiling?

Multiple personality disorder, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 06:24 PM

I read GfS very differently. I do not at all see him agreeing with Songwronger's post back in the thread a bit. GfS has made a tremendous effort to be more diplomatic in his posts, and I find no reason not to say so right here and right now. The fact he doesn't care for Obama is his view, just as many people here do like Obama, well, that's their respective views.

I think the difference between the two (SW and GfS) is that SW targets Obama, and GfS targets government as a whole. I'm not at all convinced that government deserves the trust of you, the people. Just as folks can tire of the same ol' same ol', I think that GfS's posts over time have been consistent, just as have many of those posted here by so many of you. We all have difficulty with stupidity, and nothing brings that out faster than religion or politics. From ALL of us. The difficulty is figuring out who is the stupid one. History will tell us, and that's pretty much the way it will have to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 07:11 PM

I see the judge has stepped down due to possible conflicts as presented by the defence lawyers.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:53 AM

Thank you, 999, for being understanding and responsive, in place of defensive and re-active!
It has been, in times of 'past posts', that someone misinterprets what I say, to fit a 'triggered response', generally from the 'left' point of view, and they get all nasty and defensive of 'it', thinking that I'm 'attacking' from the 'right'. Not so. Just trying to 'reason' with someone 'INSIDE THERE', as in 'anybody home?'.
While I'm at that point, I'd like to clarify something in your post, and I think you may see the fine line, of what I refer to, when I show my 'disapproval' of the 'talking point parrots'....

You posted:
    "I think the difference between the two (SW and GfS) is that SW targets Obama, and GfS targets government as a whole. I'm not at all convinced that government deserves the trust of you, the people. Just as folks can tire of the same ol' same ol', I think that GfS's posts over time have been consistent, just as have many of those posted here by so many of you. We all have difficulty with stupidity, and nothing brings that out faster than religion or politics."

It's NOT 'government, I target as a whole'..but the corruption, that grows a cancer within the body politic, and that cancer has used 'issues' and policies to promote a 'solution'...which, up to date, has brought us, as a nation, moral, financial, emotional, mental 'stress' on the brink of ruin..and to push through bogus 'fix-it programs', and to bring 'allowances', they've managed to get us all bickering over 'baseless issues'!....That are 'off topic' to the higher priorities!
Shit, don't you think that those who corrupt our SYSTEM, do it by only being within ONE party??? That's just plain dumb!
Every...EVERY major issue brought up within the past 40 years, or more, were done so, for someone's financial profit...and it wasn't the people's, who support the whole thing!...and that means YOU, as well as those who you've been designating as 'opponents'!.....The guys that get screwed, are US!..both parties, any race, color, any creed, anybody!...and it's the accommodation for this corruption, and the scripted excuses made to excuse it, and the motive....that we, as musicians, with a social conscience, should be free of, and put those energies, into musical communication, with a nation that has been victimized, whether here or in the UK, by these national psychic-vampires! WE have the tools.....if we only learn how to use them effectively, TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER!.....however, I can see, that before we can do that, we need to RESOLVE, those issues within us!...and I don't think, anyone here, who has been watching the current events unfold, can get away with denying that ANY of it, deserves an 'EXCUSE'! It needs to be corrected, and as I posted before, in another 'Closed' thread, it comes UP in people's hearts, and THEN UP from the streets. There is a MASSIVE audience out there waiting....but the messengers are still bickering about bullshit, and are too drunk in it to show up to the gig!

Thank You 999!! for your insights....and as much of a pain in the ass that some make me out to be, even a very tenacious pain in the ass...I'M ON YOU SIDE!!...(as musicians, growing up in the same times), and NOT forgetting, nor selling out!....just gotta' hack through some of the 'acquired bullshit' to get there!

Warmest Regards!.........To ALL(if you can receive it).

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 08:12 AM

Yeah right, GfinS...

You need to make up your mind who you really are... As long as you are attacking Obama, liberals, Democrats then yer happy...

When called on it you retreat to your classless and free default position which is: everything sucks...

What people were suggesting here was that there was sufficient evidence to bring charges against Zimmerman... That was not unreasonable... You attacked us for that position... Your position was we needed more and more investigation... Given that the police bungled the initial investigation and the evidence came down to the same story it started out to be, sans Zimmerman's team rewriting it every other day, those of us who were angry that charges weren't being brought have been vindicated... In other words, we were correct and not these leftist monsters that you painted us out to be...

But stick with yer warm and fuzzy classless and free santuary, GfinS... After all, we wouldn't want you to have to admit that the leftist monsters were correct, would we???

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: John P
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 09:55 AM

Yes, GfS, we know. We know, we know, we know, we know. We said we know. We still know. You keep acting like we're a bunch of morons for not knowing. Here's a hint: we know.

Still, arresting and thoroughly investigating someone who just killed an unarmed person in the street didn't seem like too much to ask.

they've managed to get us all bickering over 'baseless issues'!

Some of us think the issues "they" have forced or fooled (according to you) us into bickering over aren't baseless. Would you please stop being so insulting? We're not morons, we're not sheep, and we are an unusually aware group. Get this: we know, and we still care about "baseless" issues like race, gun violence, and the effect that the NRA has on our governments.

This is way off topic, but what the hell:

Every...EVERY major issue brought up within the past 40 years, or more, were done so, for someone's financial profit.

I personally helped end the Viet Nam war. I also help raise awareness and support laws to make women more like people than chattel. I will take on anyone who preaches against equal rights for gay people. I consistently speak out against corruption in government. Where's my profit motive?

I agree that corporations and most politicians are motivated almost completelyly by profit, but that doesn't make the injustices we witness daily a matter of someone getting rich. Where is the profit motive for making gay people second class citizens? Where is the profit motive for forcing some sick version of Christianity into our laws? Well OK, the profit motive for continuing to value women at $0.77 on the dollar is obvious, but doesn't it seem likely that it is caused more by sexism than greed?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 11:57 AM

John p: "Some of us think the issues "they" have forced or fooled (according to you) us into bickering over aren't baseless. Would you please stop being so insulting? We're not morons, we're not sheep, and we are an unusually aware group. Get this: we know, and we still care about "baseless" issues like race, gun violence, and the effect that the NRA has on our governments."

Are you ranting that THIS is racism?..Like you did with Zimmerman????????????

You guys NEVER admit when this shit is politicized, and are careful with your 'selective absurdities'.
Stop insulting yourselves!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 12:05 PM

999, I saw you defending GFS a while ago saying he/she/it has improved behavior. I just don't see it. No respect is paid to the other person's point of view. No attention is paid to the other person's points except to come back to the same silly paranoid point of view about society and politics and to repeat it endlessly in combination with snide little jabs about the other person's intelligence.

If one person is saying that everyone else is crazy and stupid, there is some chance that they are right. But that is not the most likely conclusion to draw.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:02 PM

Jack, with all due respects, let's not ignore the obvious holes in a strict party line 'rap'. A LOT of people are inaccurate, but mostly because they want to believe that 'their' party is right...but the record shows, clearly, that fraud has been perpetrated on the American public, and the world, by both parties, and a lot of people just can't let go of the deception, the were rewarded, for their trust.
This is obviously, without doubt evident, every day that we live..and reflected here, in the forum...and in a lot of our thoughts during the day. To deny, deflect and defend those same tactics, or even pay much attention to them, once you know better, is two things: Moronic stubbornness to live in deception, amidst ALL the evidence..and an unwillingness to admit that someone may have just been deceived, and manipulated...and that is coming from 'tailor-made news' to perpetuate, a smokescreen of cover.
Haven't you at least noticed that between the two 'lame-stream parties' things has only deteriorated from bad to worse??
During the last election, and in my posts, I used to call Obama, O-Blabbo'...because I thought the guy was OBVIOUSLY talking out his ass...."Yes we can", turned into a litany of reasons why it was always somebody elses 'fault', of 'Why we can't'. He was either lying, or talking out his ass, not knowing what he was 'promising'.
Show ANY evidence otherwise.
Now the first re-action will be to BLAME Congress, which they had a majority in at the time, blame Bush AGAIN, which indeed has validity to it...in which case, he was talking through his ass, promising shit he later claims he didn't know about. No brainer!!
Now get off the party line on how wonderful all this crap is. There are REAL things to say in music, either addressing the bigger picture, or things to lift up within the common sense of the people who at least admit that there is a massive problem...and repeating the same ol' party rhetoric, just ain't cuttin' it!..EITHER SIDE!!..It's too fucked up, to be entrusted to the crooks who have PROFITED too much IN FUCKING IT UP!
Wake up and be at the leading edge, not the ass-end!

Some of you remind me of the establishment's re-action to Dylan when he first came out, or Ochs, or McGuire, or Baez, or Rose, or Prine..and they ALL represented a shift away from the norm of narrow thinking!
Welcome to the corrupted establishment's mindset!
How's the view?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:02 PM

""Are you ranting that THIS is racism?..Like you did with Zimmerman???????????? ""

WTF are you on about. She is standing trial for her crime. What is racist about that.

Zimmerman wasn't even arrested until the reaction of the public forced a change of mind on the local authorities.

If you recall (unlikely since you pay scant attention to what anybody else says), we pointed out that if Trayvon Martin had stood his ground and killed Zimmerman, he wouldn't have been on the street again for the rest of his life. That's where racism came in.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:06 PM

Don, calm down....I already posted, that when the prosecution could build a strong enough case, that IF they had reason, WITHIN the law, that an arrest would come....or would you prefer an arrest, with either a dismissal, or 'not guilty' verdict?
I repeatedly called for patience. Go back and look....if you really care.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:39 PM

Yes guest from sanity. There is corruption. It is in both parties. there is clearly too much money in the system and the 2% have a disproportionate share. It has been discussed many times without your help and it is generally acknowledged.

By the way, if you can show me a time or place in history where this was not so. I am interested.

That does not mean that ALL discussions of politics must be in terms of this corruption. It does not mean that there is some cabal running thing behind the scenes and it does not justify your constant attempts to demean belittle anyone who disagrees with you.

Yes there are problems with the system. There are problems with any system. That doesn't mean that one electoral choice is not better than another. It does not override and preclude the discussion of those choices.

You yourself seemed very invested in the system when Hillary Clinton was still in the running for the Democratic Party nomination. In fact your unwavering support for her and you mocking of anyone who disagreed with THAT point of view makes pretty much everything you have said on the topic of Presidential politics since then seem like hypocritical sour grapes.

"Moronic stubbornness to live in deception" Here you imply that I am acting like a moron because I don't see things exactly the same way you do. I appreciate that you did not do so with your usual manic punctuation and your barely decipherable sarcasm. You did come right out and say it, clearly, in a clear sentence.

Maybe 999 is right. Maybe you are making some progress. But you still have a long long way to go. After all you did call me a moron.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 01:55 PM

How far was Zimmerman from his truck when the shot was fired?

Why did Martin approach Zimmerman with his hand in his waistband, stare at him and then turn and run?

Was Zimmerman in uniform?

Was Zimmerman on duty?

Why was Martin in the Neighbourhood?

Did Zimmerman continue to try to find Martin after Martin was out of sight and Zimmerman was told that the police did not need Zimmerman to follow Martin? If he did continue, was it at a walking pace rather than running after Martin? If Martin "eluded" Zimmerman by running away and outrunning Zimmerman, how did Martin come into contact with Zimmerman subsequently?.. was Martin "standing his ground" after running away?

Was the the neighbourhood searched for any weapons Martin might have been carrying due to the fact that he approached Zimmerman with a hand in his waistband? Was the neighbourhood canvassed for witnesses? Were any witnesses found? Were any statements taken? Was Zimmerman examined for physical trauma? If so, by whom?

I'll stop there...

Anybody have any answers to these very few (given the complexity and gravity of the situation) questions?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:29 PM

The Wiki entry on the event.

Even if everything that Zimmerman said is true. And it seems Chris Serino is a Sanford Police homicide detective and was the lead investigator for the police on the night of the shooting, when he stated in an affidavit that he was unconvinced by Zimmerman's version of events.

Zimmerman had no business following the kid. He should have obeyed the instruction of the dispatcher and of the Sanford Police volunteer program coordinator Wendy Dorival.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 02:34 PM

"He should have obeyed the instruction of the dispatcher and of the Sanford Police volunteer program coordinator Wendy Dorival."

YES! We have an answer. What evidence do you base your answer upon?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 04:37 PM

Assuming you read the link I posted, which, by the way addresses many of your concerns, the evidence that I have is that a kid is dead and OBVIOUSLY everyone would be better off if Zimmerman had minded his own business after he called the police.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 05:53 PM

JtS: "You yourself seemed very invested in the system when Hillary Clinton was still in the running for the Democratic Party nomination. In fact your unwavering support for her and you mocking of anyone who disagreed with THAT point of view makes pretty much everything you have said on the topic of Presidential politics since then seem like hypocritical sour grapes."

I NEVER endorsed, nor was EVER tempted to endorse Hilary. She's one of 'them'!

As to the Zimmerman deal, let's see where the courts go..fair enough?

But I haven't heard the cries of outrage when the woman was shot down, and her baby snatched...not from the 'right' nor 'left' as to the racial dynamic of it. What I found curious, was the outrage toward Zimmerman, on the racial issue, by the left....but silence from the right. Perhaps the racial dynamics, has the 'left' a little too 'trigger happy', when it comes to politicizing a crime...but only one way.
Just something to consider.
Now back to the main topic, of the thread...(not that the 'drift' was totally irrelevant, either.)

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 07:29 PM

There's a boat load of evidence that Zimmerman is lying...

1. In the days after this went public and outrage was building, one of Zimmerman's friends appeared on every major network telling the world what had occurred...

    a. This "friend" said on NBC that Zimmerman hadn't called Martin a "fucking coon" but a "fucking goon"???

    b. The "friend" also brought up the story that Martin attacked Zimmerman and broke Zimmerman's nose??? Zimmerman stuck with that story even though any ER doctor in the country could take a look at the film of Zimmerman at the police station and testify that there is no evidence of a broken nose... Broken noses are extremely difficult to fake or hide...

2. Zimmerman was told by the police not to pursue Martin yet he did... However he explains this is is going to smell of a liar...

3. Zimmerman has said it was him who yelled for "help"... Voice experts have used computer imaging of the tapes and say it isn't Zimmerman's...

These are just starters...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 07:40 PM

JtS... so, you have no evidence to support your answer. If you had evidence, you would have posted it.

That is my point. These questions... again, only a few... cannot be answered by anyone posting to this thread at this time.

Indeed, you postulate that Zimmerman did not "mind his own business" after calling police. Where is your evidence?

As far as minding his own business, was Zimmerman employed as a security guard in the neighbourhood? Was he minding the security of the neighbourhood? If not, why was Zimmerman in the neighbourhood?

As far as your link, if you can't supply one simple answer and support it, I am not going to read all your previous posts to try to figure out what you are trying to say... WITHOUT any supporting evidence.

Conjecture... conjecture... conjecture. Been sayin it from the start. I just tried to stem all the bullshit and all I get is bullshit back. It's getting tiresome trying to get my point across. STOP IT. It's getting a bit silly with all the lynch mob mentality. Let the courts settle things... with FACTS and not conjecture. If you HAVE evidence, post it. If not, don't. It ain't rocket science.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 08:05 PM

B~... where's your evidence for those claims?

Anyone can clain this or that, especially when they post as a guest. Where is the evidence?

I have NEVER stated anything regarding this situation except that Zimmerman should be tried in a court of law on suspicion of committing a crime.

Anyone who wants to hang a man without due process is not human.

And, I'll bet a lot of those who presume he is guilty of premeditated murder before due process wouldn't hang him even if he was convicted of same in a court of law... don't that just twist it sufficient?

Git yer rope... were not gonna have a hangin tanight... we're just gonna let him twist in tha wind fer while... hyuk hyuk.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 08:11 PM

Watch the trial, gn-ze...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 09:57 PM

Bobert... "Watch the trial, gn-ze... "

THAT is what I have been saying since the very start of this thread and I have been trying to make that point in a LOT of my posts since then.

Very few people seem to have understood those posts.

Even when I ask specific questions, people still post that they KNOW what happened but cannot support their arguements with any evidence.

Listen to the 911 call. Read the transcripts. Even then, the questions CANNOT be answered.

"Watch the trial"... good advice... like I said WAAAAAY back in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 10:03 PM

Chill out Gnu. I I have said all along based on what I have seen he should be charged with murder. The special prosecutor has done so. I am quite willing to wait for the trial to see if he is guilty.


"As far as minding his own business, was Zimmerman employed as a security guard in the neighbourhood? Was he minding the security of the neighbourhood? If not, why was Zimmerman in the neighbourhood?"

If you do not know this you should know off talking and read something. The Wiki article I posted is a good start.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Songwronger
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 10:24 PM

Yes, Guest from Sanity, the members here do seem largely to defend the Democratic position, right or wrong. It's been my experience that conservatives are more flexible in debate, and more likely to admit mistakes. I suspect that's because liberals tend to have more education (as in more years spent in school). They have a hard time admitting they've made an error. Obama's antics are a good example of this. He said he'd end the wars. Lie. A Big Lie. Then he says he gives two shits about Trayvon Martin. Those two situations tell you all you need to know about Obama's honesty, yet people WILL persist in believing him.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 10:35 PM

"It's been my experience that conservatives are more flexible in debate, and more likely to admit mistakes."

Wow - You need a LOT more experience. Come to Georgia. I have some folks that you need to talk with.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 10:53 PM

"He said he'd end the wars. Lie. A Big Lie." referring to President Obama.

He never said that. I was present for one of his speeches. His position was crystal clear.

I remember him saying that he would end the Iraq war. And the the war we should be fighting is in Afghanistan. He promised to end the fighting by US troops in Iraq and to commit more resources to Afghanistan and indeed he did.

If Obama did promise "to end the wars" without trying to win the war in Afghanistan it should be easy enough for you to find the quote. Once you have found that you cannot find it. I will thank you not to keep repeating am un-truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 10:57 PM

Well, here's one...gnu and I agree on this one.
...as with Songwronger..makes sense to me....
Wesley, you pay expenses, and I'll surely talk with 'em...and the liberals, too....it would be cool to see which group, flashes first....OR, I could play them some music, that would put politics in it's place!!..they might forget that shit, and see each other as fellow human beings, brothers and sisters...instead of "Which party do you belong to...so I can decide if you are over there..in the distance...separated from your fellow human beings, and brothers and sisters....and common sense....and can I trust you?...or are you filled with the same lies, so we can relate?"

Fuck that shit!..had enough of it.
How 'bout you?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 10:58 PM

That's right... Use Obama as a means of getting a murderer off???

Delusional thinking, at best...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Apr 12 - 11:29 PM

Bobert, I hope you weren't addressing me in that last post....I really hope not, for your sake. You might look into your retirement health plan, to see if it covers........umm........mental issues?

Now, of course IF you were addressing someone else....why come off with that?

Sorry, guy..you're not making sense....I love ya'...play music...practice like a mother-jumper....Make sense there...hopefully, with no lyrics!!!

Regards Ol' Fart!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: John P
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 01:44 AM

GfS, I am not a Democrat. I never said the Martin shooting was racially motivated. I think it is likely that it was, but I don't have any real evidence of that. I don't think the mommy murder was racially motivated. Again, I could be wrong, but the motivation there seems obvious. Stop putting words in my mouth that I didn't say.

Is it possible for you to start reading your posts before you send them? It would give you the opportunity to remove all personal attacks. Just so you know, calling people herd animals that are being led around by the nose by the Democratic Party/liberals/Obama/international bankers/gay agenda is a personal attack. So is ascribing to them words they didn't say or positions they don't hold in order slam them (or for any other reason).

It is also a cowardly debating tactic. It allows you to think the people you are talking to are so moronic that you don't have to pay attention to what they are saying. And, voila! you don't have to answer the points they make.

You and whoever else it was can talk about how liberals can't carry on a debate all you want, but talk is cheap. I will take on any so-called conservative any day in a moderated debate on a variety of topics, where the logic has to make sense, personal attacks get you kicked out, and all facts come from extremely mainstream newspapers. I'll debate one-on-one or in teams. So far, I've been disappointed trying to debate with the so-called conservatives. No one has been able to answer the next question that arises from their mostly too-short and pithy statements, much less the tenth one after that.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: John P
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 01:58 AM

Sorry for being so far off topic. Is there really anything more to say about the Martin killing? It seems like everyone agrees that the trial will tell. Although I'm sure more pieces of evidence will come out in bits and drabbles and we can all quiz ourselves silly trying to guess what they mean. Any more guesswork on the existing facts, or should we wait for more to come forth?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 02:14 AM

There isn't more to be said. Gust from inSanity simply likes to argue, to hear her own words. Your work here is done.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 03:03 AM

John P, I re-read your post..and yeah, I took something a way that you might not have meant it. OK...we're cool......(this time)grin.

GfS

P.S. knock off the posts like your last...it's dumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 09:42 AM

Can we stop the Bobert-facts, and see what the evidence at trial is BEFORE we hang the guy?


http://gma.yahoo.com/warning-graphic-photo-possible-evidence-shows-george-zimmermans-050145810--abc-news-topstories.html

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Arkie
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:08 AM

The police supposedly investigate fatal shootings even when the bullet is fired by a police officer. Why should they not investigate a shooting by an untrained civilian. It is doubtful that Zimmerman will be hanged or executed by any other method but the circumstances are suspicious and certainly should be examined carefully. While this does not seem to be an instance of premeditated murder, Zimmerman established contact, pursued his victim in some fashion and continued with the contact when requested to do otherwise. His actions could have provoked a confrontation or attack. That is for the legal system to decide. If I were a young black man being followed by a skinhead, I would certainly be nervous. There is also a dilemma. Do you just want to get home or should you be afraid to lead this suspicious person to your destination and put others at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 11:41 AM

BeardedBruce: "Can we stop the Bobert-facts...."

I didn't know there was such a thing.....most of it is whooped up political emotionalism..the rest is...well...God only knows what. But, one thing you can say for sure...he has an endless supply...with an imagination like that, you'd think he's be a monster blues innovator..if only he'd flash on what key he's playing in.
Love ya' Bobert!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 11:48 AM

At Zimmerman's bond hearing this morning, a police investigator testified for the state that he was aware of no evidence to contradict Zimmerman's claim that Martin had attacked him.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 11:56 AM

Watch the bloody video Gnu.

Zimmerman claimed to have had his nose broken by a punch and a deep gash on the back of his head caused by it being repeatedly banged on the pavement by Martin.

That video proves that claim to be a lie!!

I've downloaded that clip and enlarged a section of it. The back of his head could not be smoother if had just been polished, and when he turns there is only a perfectly straight nose to be seen, and no sign whatsoever of blood.

That is evidence of a lie, and since almost all the other evidence is that supplied by the liar...........?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 12:03 PM

"Bobert Facts"? Interesting.

Bruce don't complain about what HE posts purporting to be "facts".

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 12:09 PM

Greg F.

I have given the support for my claims, unlike your racist lies. Those you support should be ashamed to be associated with you.




Don,

The post I made before yours shows your claim is NOT true- the blood is quite clear, though it looks as if it had been cleaned off and the blood showing is fresh blood. given the present concerns about "infection", the stoppage of bleeding would have been a priority BEFORE Z was placed in the police car and taken in.

If YOU are unwilling to consider evidence that contradicts what you want to believe, you have no right to expect ANYONE ELSE to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 12:13 PM

Bobert-facts are claims held to after being proven wrong, such as the B-fact that more Palestinians were driven out of Israel in 1948 than the ENTIRE population of Jews and Moslems at that time.

Usually followed by a claim that anyone who does not agree with the proven false claim is a racist or mental in some way.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 12:13 PM

""Once you have found that you cannot find it. I will thank you not to keep repeating am un-truth.""

You'll not be holding your breath, I hope JTS.

Both creating and repeating terminological inexactitudes is his stock in trade.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 12:26 PM

GfS,

"with an imagination like that, you'd think he's be a monster blues innovator..if only he'd flash on what key he's playing in."

For any disagreements I have with Bobert, I will insist his musical abilities be respected. On THAT I will defer to his greater knowledge and experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 12:27 PM

Bearded Bruce.

Either that photo is a fake, or the man shown in the video at the police station was not Zimmerman.

You can wipe away blood, but you cannot wipe away the cut which produced it, and there was no sign of a cut of any description, let alone a deep gash.

Don't take my word for it, watch the bloody video.

Otherwise it is you that has the problem with accepting evidence you don't want to be true, and what would be your only logical reason for that?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 12:37 PM

Don,

"Either that photo is a fake, or the man shown in the video at the police station was not Zimmerman."

And I should accept this why? You provide no evidence.

The photo in the report I posted was taken AT THE SCENE, three minutes after the police arrived according to the information.

I watched the video. I saw no definitive indication that there were OR WERE NOT cuts- the resolution was not adequate to determine from THAT picture. It may very well be of someone other than Zimmerman- in which case your examination has no bearing on the case.

Now why is THIS photo a fake, and the video valid??? This is ONE piece of evidence, ALL of which should be looked at no matter what political gain there is in coming to a predetermined verdict.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 12:41 PM

"A new photograph obtained exclusively by ABC News showing the bloodied back of George Zimmerman's head, which was taken three minutes after he shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, gives possible credence to his claim that Martin had bashed his head against the concrete as he fought for his life.
...The exclusive image shows blood trickling down the back of George Zimmerman's head from two small cuts. It also shows a possible contusion forming on the crown of his head. The original police report that night notes that the back of Zimmerman's head was wet, and that he was bleeding from the nose and head....
Zimmerman was treated at the scene by paramedics, then cuffed and driven in a police cruiser to the Sanford police station. He was questioned for hours and later released. In police surveillance video obtained last month by ABC News Zimmerman's wounds are not apparent, and there were no bandages on his head."

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 12:46 PM

One side is saying "deep gash" and "broken nose", the other is saying no injury at all.

Is it possible that the truth is somewhere in between?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 12:48 PM

"from two small cuts. It also shows a possible contusion forming on the crown of his head."

is what the police report says. UNTIL there is evidence otherwise, I have no reason to doubt this.

Do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 12:56 PM

Just as a matter of speculation--NOT an assertion.

Could it be that Zimmerman shot Martin after being told to back off, figured, "Uh-oh! I'm in deep do-do now!" and his alleged wounds are self-inflicted, so he could claim Martin had attacked him and that he acted in self-defense?

Since nobody actually SAW what happened, speculation is rife. On ALL sides.

Nobody except Zimmerman KNOWS what really happened, and he is liable to be a bit biased.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 01:05 PM

The "Bobert fact" was about the "broken nose" that Zimmerman and his friend claimed was the result of being punched in the face by Martin...

BTW, it's a lot easier to bust the back of your head by laying down and using your head as a hammer on some gravel than to break your own nose...

I'm sure that right after Zimmerman killed Martin he went into a "I gotta make this look like I was attacked" mode and my gut felling is that he busted the back of his head as some defense...

At any rate...

Here's what we still know... Zimmerman was told by the police to leave Martin alone... Zimmerman didn't follow the request of the police... Zimmerman shot and killed Martin...

There are a couple problems I have here...

First, if Martin had shot Zimmerman we wouldn't be having this discussion and Martin would be in jail facing murder charges with a $1M+ bail...

Second, Martin isn't here to tell his story but Zimmerman is and has had the luxury of time and counsel to concoct his story...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: kendall
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 02:34 PM

Guilty or not guilty, bail for murder?
I want to know all the facts before I judge, and all I know right now is, Zimmerman had a loaded gun, and Martin had a bag of candy.
That would be like throwing corn flakes at a battleship.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 02:46 PM

""Now why is THIS photo a fake, and the video valid??? This is ONE piece of evidence, ALL of which should be looked at no matter what political gain there is in coming to a predetermined verdict.""

You really are rather good at not reading, or responding to, what people actually say.

Which part of EITHER.....OR! do you see as expressing a preference?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 02:50 PM

According to the lawyers on TV, bail for murder - particularly 2nd degree - is not only common in Florida (and maybe elsewhere), it's frequently less than Z's $150,000.

The state has to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the accused is a flight risk or a danger to the community.

In Z's case, he will be released to his family, fitted with a radio transmitter and GPS, put under a 6-6 curfew, and made to report to the sheriff every three days. He cannot consume alcohol, take drugs, or have access to a firearm.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 03:09 PM

You really are rather good at not reading, or responding to, what people actually say.

That's part of his cunning debating strategy, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 04:00 PM

JtS... "If you do not know this you should know off talking and read something. The Wiki article I posted is a good start."

Okay, according to Wiki, Z was on a private errand at the time. Does he work for the neighbour? No, but "kinda" does. He a volunteer for the neighbour watch who the neihbourhood watch told people to contact if they could not contact the police. Was he in the neighbourhood because he lives there?

So many people just wanna hang him without all the facts.

The "GASH" in the back of the head? Who claimed there was a GASH in the back of Z's head?

And, do you really expect me to believe that a grown man would smash his own head on the ground after he had fired a shot in a residential neighbour? Might there be witnesses to consider?

This thread just gets stranger and stranger.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 04:22 PM

From:GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 04:00 PM

Was me... power outage ate my cookie.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 05:21 PM

""The "GASH" in the back of the head? Who claimed there was a GASH in the back of Z's head?""

Zimmerman and a member of his family claimed a deep gash, according to the Newsreels.

Do you really think everybody is lying except the killer (and there is NO doubt he IS the killer).

"Look at that, mother. The whole army is out of step except our George!"".......Yeah, right!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 05:22 PM

Dumb people do dumb stuff...

When you've spent as much time in court as I have you get to thinking "Yeah, right?" with what people will say and do to get away with dumb stuff...

Yes, I very much believe that Zimmerman may have injured himself to try to make it look as if he was defending himself... After all, he had 3 minutes after the shooting where no one seems to have seen him???

I'm not stating he did this... But with the other obvious lies, it is very possible...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 06:16 PM

Z claimed he had a gash? Near as I know, Z hasn't said squat to anyone exept the police. Got a source for that? If a relative reported it second hand, that ain't worth squat... that's conjecture.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 06:54 PM

Well, gn-ze, I don't recall the name of the articulate black friend that was on every major network when the story was coming out but he said that he had spoken with Zimmerman and was relating what Zimmerman had told him... This friend will be a very large part of this case...

BTW, there are pictures of Zimmerman at the police station which don't jive with Zimmerman's story...

Here is another part of the story that doesn't add up... Zimmerman now claims he was badly beaten by Martin... Okay, if you have a gun then why aren't you using it rather than get badly beaten??? If the gun was in the car then Zimmerman would have had to fetch it in order to shoot Martin... If Zimmerman had the where-with-all to do that then why not just get in the car and lock the door behind you???

Zimmerman's stories don't add up... More holes than Swiss cheeze...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: bobad
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 07:04 PM

Jeeze gnu, are you channeling Johnnie Cochran?

IMO, FWIW, even if Trayvon attacked Zimmie and beat on him it would be understandable given the circumstances. A young black kid innocently walking, at night, in a place where he had every right to be, is stalked and confronted by a white guy sporting a skinhead haircut and carrying a gun - hell, he had every right to think his life was in peril and to protect himself by any means. The only person who was doing what he had no right to do was Zimmie - he had no right to follow, confront and question Trayvon or anyone else for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 07:26 PM

Nice Marsha Clark impersonation, b-bad...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 07:34 PM

OK here's the deal.....prosecution fucked up by NOT charging him with manslaughter. Instead, they charged him with 2nd degree murder, with a 'no lesser charge' option. In other words, they have to charge him with the crime that can stick. If he is found 'not guilty' of murder 2, they can't go to a manslaughter charge, or lesser crime...it's either murder 2 or nothing. Based on that alone, he will be acquitted, because the criteria has not been met by a murder 2 charge.
Folks, this will amount to nothing more than courtroom theatrics..and the prosecution knows it.
Those who know ANYTHING about courtroom antics, KNOWS that the prosecution is performing just like a guy who knows he doesn't have a strong enough case to convict (standard law school training..101).....just to appease the public 'outcry'. Just watch, you'll see.
Am I rooting for acquittal?..No, not particularly...just that the truth comes out, the verdict comes down, and whatever it is, everybody will accept it, and shut the fuck up.

By the way, I DID mention this before, in a couple of earlier posts..that you DON'T want him to be charged, unless they have a strong case..(they don't)...now if they drag it out long enough, the tension may ease up, and not have the sharp re-action, as if it was being 'tried' this week.

You'll see.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:01 PM

Not sure about Florida law but in Virginia the prosecution will present a case that allows the jury to find a defendant guilty of a lesser charge...

As for Florida courts??? Who knows??? The fact that this case has gained national attention should make the folks accountable...

As I have said, the larger issue is "castle laws" which have, thanks to the NRA and the American Legislative Exchange Council, been passed in just about every state with a Republican state house... These laws are a license to murder...

In Florida a road rage redneck can pull up behind a car that has pissed him off, walk up to the driver and scream at him and then shoot the guy saying he thought threatened??? WTF is this???

This is insanity...

Oh, now I know why GfinS loves castle laws...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:05 PM

"it's either murder 2 or nothing"

I think (but could be out to lunch) that the prosecution states the charge (ie murder 1, 2 or MS) but the defense can offer a guilty plea to a lesser charge 'in the interest of saving time and money for the people represented by the court'. (This can happen at anytime before the defense feels it will lose the case, at which point the prosecution will refuse any offers.) But here we're talking about Florida. Remember that when Anita Bryant was the spokesinger [I thought that was pretty good but no applause needed or necessary] for Florida citrus growers, her child lost a tooth and the tooth fairy didn't leave a dollar under the kid's pillow.

I have read more bullshit on this thread than on any threads I have read in quite some time. There was a time in American jurisprudence when it was considered ok to talk about it all but not put it in print--allegations of a person's guilt or innocence--and we've seen lots of that. Money saver I guess because once we get it decided, we can dispense with the trial. It feels like some badly reflected image of Harper Lee's book.

In short, Gentlemen, please . . . !

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: kendall
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:23 PM

Next time a black guy armed with a bag of candy approaches me, I'll run away.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: pdq
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:23 PM

...start your engines?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:41 PM

Yeah, brucie... The American judicial system is badly broken... Can't really pinpoint when it happened but with O.J. Simpson and Bush v. Gore it is evident it is broken... And broken badly...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:46 PM

...and 200...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 08:53 PM

Just one more time. I don't know what happened. Neither do any of you. I even asked questions on this thread to demonstrate that postulate. I got answers... mostly unsupported statements, and they don't butter the bread.

I said long ago, if Z is guilty of what the lynch mob accuses, nay, avers he is, I'll supply the rope. But, until there is proof to that effect, yer all just poundin sand... like saying he "stalked" the kid. Prove it. Supply the motive. Support your accusations with facts and not statements that you cannot support.

There are soooo many unanswered questions. And far more conjecture in this thread.

BTW, if he is guilty and I supply the rope, any of you wanna volunteer to slap the horse in the ass?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 09:00 PM

How can anyone offer evidence here, gn-ze??? There were two people and no witnesses... One armed with a Glock... One armed with candy... The one armed with candy lost...

The questions will never be answered...

The substantial evidence, however, weighs heavily against the guy with the Glock...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 09:22 PM

Bobert... "The substantial evidence, however, weighs heavily against the guy with the Glock..."

What evidence? I've read the transcripts and listened to the 911 call. I addressed that earlier in the thread. No way anyone can say he "stalked" the kid of that he "followed" the kid after he was told "we don't need you to do that". Go back and read my post asking the questions about that... about why there was a second confrontation after the kid ran and disappeared. It's CLEAR to me that nobody knows how that occurred... yet.

A police compound video, blurry, is no proof that there was no blood or broken nose... the paramedics that attended to Z will have their statements as well as the cops.

Any of youse had a broken nose? I had mine reset by the guy in charge of the gym after I got nailed boxing and the bleeding stopped in about 5 minutes.

Seriously, when I read and listen to all this it just doesn't add up. The whole incident itself and especially the lynch mob attitude on this thread. The facts will come out. Stating "facts" without support or evidence is a problem for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 09:30 PM

Okay, gn-ze... Yer logic says that murder is fine as long as no one sees it happen???

He said, she said... Murderer walks???

Guess again...

BTW, yeah, I've had my nose broken twice... Once playing football... Once in a Golden Gloves boxing competition... Lotta blood... Two black eyes... My poor brother had his broken playing baseball... Same with him... Ain't like a bloody nose... Ask any ER doc... They see lots of them... Very messy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: bobad
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 09:37 PM

"The facts will come out."

Right, just like they did in the OJ trial.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 09:39 PM

I agree, b-bad... This is going to be O.J. II...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 09:52 PM

Wanna song about it? Here ya go . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Janie
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 09:56 PM

It is not necessary to demonize Zimmerman to understand or accept that he made a bad choice that turned out to be lethal for an African-American teenager.

It is not necessary to to demonize Zimmerman in order to expect that he be held accountable for his mistaken judgements or interpretations of the situation that resulted in his killing Trayvon Martin.

It is wrong, in my view, to scapegoat Zimmerman for the ills of society and instead of holding society accountable, place all blame on one individual. Saying that does not remove personal responsibility from Zimmerman for his poor judgement that resulted in the death of another.

Zimmerman's choices may not have been based on any racial bias at all. Still was based on erroneous assumptions and the perception of threat when there was no threat. Seems to me, based on news reports, that elements of racism are more likely to have been institutional racism regarding the responses, or lack there of, of the police department.

It is possible,though not probable, that racism played no role what-so-ever in the whole chain of events that have occurred since the young Mr. Martin was tragically killed. Actually, that is not true. Even if racism, personal or institutional, played no part in Trayvon's death or the initial inertia of the justice system, the perception of racism, competely reflecting the legacy of our country's history, and in which African-Americans and others of us are steeped and which color our perceptions and interpretations, continues.

On a somewhat related note, in North Carolina today, a judge made a precedent setting decision under a recently enacted North Carolina Racial Justice statute , commuting a death penality to life in prison without parole after ruling that racism was involved in the jury selection and subsequent imposition of the death penalty. (Guilt was never in question.)

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:01 PM

Hear, hear, Janie...

Well said...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:04 PM

Yah know, I've been kinda wondering about that. Zimmerman's mug shot shows no evidence of a broken nose. And early photos of him taken as he's being escorted into the police station show no signs of a gash or blood on the back of his head.

Yet--there has been a photo recently released showing streaks of purplish-red on the back of someone's head, possibly Zimmerman's. But the photo is very greyish and the "blood" is quite vivid in color, not at all consistent with the rest of the photo. It looks like someone squirted grape juice on the photo of someone's head. Can't see the face.

Also, in that first mug shot (no broken nose), Zimmeman looks like a thug. Dead eyes. In the same photo that subsequently appeared on pro-Zimmerman web sites, Zimmerman's eyes look much brighter and more intelligent, and he has far less "five o'clock shadow."

Can you say "photoshop?"

Mind you, I'm not accusing anybody of anything, but hanky-panky like this does tend to make one wonder a bit......

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:04 PM

I laughed when I saw the photo of Zimmerman's injuries. Having seen someone get his head beat on the pavement, let me clue you in--it makes a BLOODY mess on the pavement and causes injuries to the skull something like when you tap an egg on a flat surface hard enough to fracture the shell. All Zimmerman has is a trickle of blood on his scalp from two little cuts--impossible. This guy's own lawyers are going to bury him if they keep pulling this stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:07 PM

Yeah... Lotta BS going down here... Broken nose, my butt...

Guess again...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:11 PM

Bobert... "Okay, gn-ze... Yer logic says that murder is fine as long as no one sees it happen???"

I ain't gonna say what's first on my mind. But, I am severely pissed off that you think it's okay to put words in my mouth.

Let me put it this way. You can't prove it was murder. If you can, do it. I said I would supply the rope and I expect you to slap the horse in the ass.

Fuck me. I can't believe any of you can make these statements without having all the facts. I can't believe any of you can put words in my mouth for asking questions to try to point out that none of you know all the facts and have no right to issue a verdict until you do know all the facts.

That has been all I have been saying all along. I just can't believe anyone would put such hateful words in my mouth. That really makes me sad. Normally, I'd just get really mad and fight back with a vengence. This time, I am just sad. Yeah, fuck justice. Fuck justice for all the poor black, and white, kids who get tried in the media and on Mudcat... including Z.

Have fun at the old hangin tree. And bring yer own fuckin rope. I am outta here.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:16 PM

When I posted that last post, BEFORE I posted it, I actually yakked with an attorney very familiar with Florida law...and being as I've done some 'legal work' myself, we could talk 'shop' a little, and intelligently. In Florida, the way this charge was entered into court, there was no deal for a 'lesser charge'..which I feel most of you are familiar with.
Anyway, that's the way I see it, like it or lump it.

And knock off the ASS-umptions, Bobert, as to if I like castle laws, or not.

Stick to music....I'm told you're pretty good....let me know if you want an audition.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Apr 12 - 10:30 PM

Like I have said over and over, the "castle laws" are written so that anyone can murder anyone they want as long as there are no witnesses...

Thats the real story here...

I don't buy it...

If ya'll do then the blood is on ya'll's hands...

Serious business...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 04:37 AM

Well one could always wash them...........................OR........................................................................be resolute, to never kill anyone under any circumstances, and lock it into your brain, as part of 'Do unto others, as you would have someone do to you'
Seems I've heard that before.....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 09:22 AM

Saw him on BBC TV this morning entering the courtroom.

His "injuries" have certainly healed incredibly well. No sign of anything at all, and we saw both front and back under good strong lighting.

Not a scratch or mark of any description.

I also recall a witness from the nearby houses who didn't see the shooting, but stated (according to the newsreels) that when he arrived on scene within seconds of the shot Zimmerman was kneeling astride Martin's body on the grass.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 09:28 AM

in North Carolina today, a judge made a precedent setting decision under a recently enacted North Carolina Racial Justice statute

Hmmm-- North Carolina: Home of the race-baiting Senator Jesse Helms of equivocal memory...... I'd like to read this "statute" and the trial transcript.....

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 10:54 AM

Second 'story' down, Greg.

http://sentencing.typepad.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 10:55 AM

That was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 11:37 AM

Thanks for the link, 999.
There are those out there, just just feel compelled to be either the leader, or an enthusiastic participant of a lynch mob....why not get your heads straight, practice your instrument, and 'slay' the audience..
without the clutter of hate, resentment, unforgiveness, 'fear and loathing' of your own,..not supporting any groups, political or otherwise who do, or use those tactics, to control the minds and wills of their unwitting 'devotees'....and just play your asses off..bringing something a little 'hipper' than the crap, we get bombarded with...day and night...week in, and week out.....and replace contrived issues with something REAL, that beings peace..and love...and nourishes the warm place in people's hearts.
Feed that, and from the streets up, a REAL change has a chance!!!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 06:58 PM

Well GfS, just a suggestion mind, but since you are so pissed off about us expressing opinions and commenting on this forum about what we see or hear, how come you haven't already pissed off to get on with your own music?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 07:13 PM

Gn-ze...

Sorry for putting words in your mouth... My bad...

It is true that I can't "prove" that Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense... Maybe he was... Maybe he wasn't...

That is the maddening part about "castle - stand-your-ground - laws"...

Anyone can murder anyone as long as there are no witnesses and get away with it... Doesn't matter who initiated the contact/conflict...

These laws are insane... These laws were pushed on every Republican statehouse by ALEC (American legislative Exchange Council) and it's equally right winged buddies at the NRA...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 08:21 PM

No worries Bobert. Yer one of the good guys. I respect your posts... we don't agree just now, except on the fact that Z shoulda been charged long before he was charged. Justice must not only be done, justice must APPEAR to be done.

I got a gut feelin that a lot more than "meets the eye" to date is gonna come out in the trial on BOTH sides.

And, I apologize for attempting to demonstrate that there are so many questions that can't be answered by the people in this forum by asking questions like I asked. I suppose it upset some people.

Anyway, thank goodness there will be a "trial" and, more to the point, that the trial will be in a court of law, where only facts are allowed considered, as much as is possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 12 - 10:00 PM

Gnu I respect your opinion as well. I also agree that he should have been charged sooner. To ad to what you and b~ have been saying, I was very concerned when I read that the "stand your ground law" was the reason he was not charged sooner. I am in a state with a newly elected GOP legislature that is feeling its oats and listens to ALEC. I would like to see a line in the sand drawn on the "stand your ground law" before it comes here. I don't want to have to buy a gun and practice like Doc Holliday to feel safe.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 03:13 AM

Don T: "Well GfS, just a suggestion mind, but since you are so pissed off about us expressing opinions and commenting on this forum about what we see or hear, how come you haven't already pissed off to get on with your own music?"

Nag,nag,nag.....Again, you absolutely go to great lengths to demonstrate that you really don't know what you're talking about!
I'm not pissed off about anything...maybe a little disappointed that people can get so wound up about stuff they know nothing about...and then they go along with the crowd of other like-minded 'spouters of nothing'....except what they are 'informed' of what they're supposed to be all wound up about...and then they go on a search, for entirely false or misleading information...sounds like a chronic waste of time!
...and when you're gazing off in the distance, figuring out what to post, in support of party gibberish, more than likely I am working my music..in various capacities.
You should try it yourself!!
Maybe on another thread.

Now, the usual bunch, heard about 'ALEC' on their favorite biased 'news' source, along with whatever slant 'Professor Anchorman/Commentator' 'informs'(?) their 'dedicated-researching viewers' about 'ALEC'. Too bad, those same 'researchers' didn't pay attention to Mudcat about six months ago, when I ran some posts, ON 'ALEC', complete with links. At that time, Bobert never even heard of 'ALEC'....now he's an expert, complete with 'expert advice and opinions'..parroted off the 'news'.....Y-a-a-a-a-w-w-n!
(Oh, and by the way, my post on 'ALEC' wasn't particularly in favor one way or other....but at least it was defined!

Not that this makes a hill of beans difference to you...other than to scour the post, and find something to nag about...because in some people's priorities, 'nagging' has higher preference than sharing what they KNOW....as FACTS....
You should work on YOUR music....without an opinion of the 'rules'..after all, they are only the rules...and they don't argue.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 06:04 AM

Look who's jumped in to defend him. None other than our old Koran burning friend, Pastor Terry Jones. Bigots of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but your prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 10:53 AM

So what???? There are people BOTH sides, either defending him or opposing him.
As for 'Pastor Jones' who cares? He is NOT relevant to the case...is he??

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 11:05 AM

Facts: this case is essentially between the Martin family and Zimmerman, with the State of Florida representing the family.

Public pressure compelled the state to reinvestigate the incident.

People other than Zimmerman who claim they know exactly what happened that night because it fits their movie-based expectations, or any other expectations, literally don't know what they're talking about. That's true even though Zimmerman's word obviously cannot be taken at face value. In a trial, nobody's can. That's why there's cross-examination.

A jury will make a decision based on the law and the facts as they understand them.

Usually juries decide appropriately, even in Florida. I said "usually."

Various legislatures are already rethinking their stand-your-ground laws. We'll see what happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Apr 12 - 11:15 AM

Exactly, Lighter...

Even the ultra-right-winged ALEC has pulled back saying it will not be pushing any more statehouses to enact "stand you ground" laws... Of course, that doesn't mean much because ALEC had run out of right winged statehouses to push...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:48 AM

Bobert: "Exactly, Lighter..."

...and leave it at that!

'Patience' I keep saying.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 10:48 AM

Question GfS!

Who died and made you controller of free speech on this forum?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: John P
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 10:53 AM

No one except Z knows what happened that night, which means we may never find out. A court will decide if he will be deemed to be guilty of a crime.

For me, that has never been the issue. The issue is the SYG law and the fact that a "blockwatch volunteer" was armed. An armed blockwatch volunteer is a vigilante. Being a vigilante is illegal, and there seems to be no doubt that Z was being a vigilante at the time of the killing.

Is it legal for a blockwatch program to have an armed component?

Is the gated community that Z was blockwatching for going to get in any trouble for establishing their own untrained police force?

Have the SYG laws ever been tested in a higher court?

Is it possible to sue the people who paid for the SYG law over this? If not, why not? What about the legislators who voted for it?

I'm a big believer in taking personal responsibility for your actions, and anyone who thought about it for one minute should have known that an SYG law would lead to this mess. In an obviously non-legal sense I think there are a lot of Florida legislators and a governor who are guilty of murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 11:25 AM

That aspect, John P, has baffled me from the start. I think a community/block watch is a good idea but WATCH is the operative word. A person armed with more than a cell/mobile phone is a danger to himself and others.

In Juneau, the volunteers stay in their vehicles; they do not poke around in corners on foot.

Is it possible that in Florida all of the volunteers have permission to be armed?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 12:52 PM

>Is it possible that in Florida all of the volunteers have permission to be armed?

I can't believe that someone licensed to carry a concealed weapon could be legally prohibited from doing so while engaged in a blockwatch program. Legal is legal. Drawing the weapon for no good reason is the problem, just as it would be for anyone at any time.

All neighborhood watch programs could state in writing that volunteers must not be armed while "on duty." I'm not even sure what "on duty" means in Z's case. Did he work a regular shift? Or was he just driving around because he had nothing else to do at that time?

A more radical and more effective way would be laws to prohibit being armed on neighborhood watch. I doubt such a law could be passed anywhere.

In any case, the gated community where Z lived is apparently being sued in civil court for any connection with the shooting. I don;t know if that issue has any bearing on whether Z is convicted of a crime.

The ultimate question is this: Do SYG laws prevent more shootings and other crimes than they cause? I have no idea. Other than the NRA, I wonder who does.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: meself
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 01:59 PM

Earlier reports made it clear that according to the policies of his neighbourhood watch org., Z. was supposed to be unarmed while acting in his capacity as a neighbourhood watch-er. This was widely reported, along with many other matters that seem to be viewed as shrouded in mystery here ....

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 02:17 PM

> Z. was supposed to be unarmed.

A quick Google search failed to find any authoritative statement that either the law or the community demanded that he not be armed. Can you provide a source?

A number of police officials have explained that watchmen "should not be" armed, and that they *tell* them not to carry arms. But that's not quite the same thing as "must not be" or "it's illegal."

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 03:12 PM

Some months ago I was cruising down Broadway Avenue North, one of the main drags near where I live, and I encountered two people wearing identical yellow sweatshirts with the word "Guardian" on the chest and back, and they both wore red berets. One of them was a tall, muscular young black man and the other was a young white woman.

I stopped and chatted with them for a few minutes. Very friendly. The Guardians, they explained, were, essentially, a neighborhood watch group. They'd heard about a group a few decades ago in New York called "The Guardian Angels" and thought it was a good idea. Such a group was forming here in Seattle.

They always travelled in pairs. They would casually stroll here and there, chat with people as they were doing with me, and generally keep an eye on things. Also, they would lend a hand if anyone looked like they needed help, such an elderly lady lugging a big grocery bag from a store to her car, things like that.

The local merchants were aware of them and approved.

By the way, they were armed.

With cell phones.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 03:26 PM

I well remember the Guardian Angels in New York. They were founded by a young guy working-class guy named Curtis Sliwa in the late '70s.

They acted as subway patrols and were "trained" to make citizens' arrests in a city whose rate of violent crime was one of the highest in the nation. A lot of people, including the Mayor, criticized them as "vigilantes."

Sliwa, an outspoken gut-level kind of conservative, was once beaten and nearly killed by professional criminals. He came back. He never expressed the need to carry a gun, and the Guardian Angels never carried them.

As far as I know, they're still in existence and still unarmed. By the time I moved from NYC a few years later, the Mayor and the Police were supporting them and their organization for enhancing public safety.

To repeat: they were watchmen in one of the country's toughest cities and still didn't want to carry guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 06:59 PM

Before cell phones, the Guardian Angels carried walkie-talkies.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 07:16 PM

Good point, John P... ALEC, governors and legislators should be held liable... BTW, I'd love to see the NRA brought to task...

And yeah, Lighter, the Guardian Angles never carried guns... Never!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 09:26 PM

"We got to have a little Old West up here in Detroit. That's what it's gonna take," Detroit resident Julia Brown.

The last time Brown, 73, called the Detroit police, they didn't show up until the next day. So she applied for a permit to carry a handgun and says she's prepared to use it against the young thugs who have taken over her neighborhood, burglarizing entire blocks, opening fire at will and terrorizing the elderly with impunity.

http://mytechnologyworld9.blogspot.in/2012/04/911-is-joke-detroit-citizens-no-longer.html

Detroit's got a large black population. I'm sure Obama will be all over this situation, showering his love, since he cares so deeply about Trayvon Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 09:41 PM

Here's the deal here... No one has ever had a problem with folks defending themselves, wrongman...

The problem is that the way these ALEC/NRA laws are written that you can be the instigator & killer and get away with it...

That is messed up...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: meself
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 10:13 PM

"A quick Google search failed to find any authoritative statement that either the law or the community demanded that he not be armed. Can you provide a source?"

A number of the early news stories that I read on Yahoo mentioned that according to the rules of the neighbourhood watch group to which he belonged, he was not supposed to be armed. A couple of reports said that Z.'s carrying of a gun had been a source of some contention within the neighbourhood watch. Whether those stories are still available on line or not, I have no idea. I did not save the pertinent urls (if that's what they're called).

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 10:30 PM

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/NWProgramHandbook.pdf

That is the Neighborhood Watch program as published by the Sanford PD.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 11:03 PM

Thanks for the ref.

The Sanford pamphlet states in boldface, "Do not take any risks to prevent a crime...." and "Remember that apprehension is the job of your police department."

It makes clear that the purpose of a neighborhood watch is solely to observe and report.

But it doesn't say specifically that you can't be armed.

Obviously you don't need to be packing a rod to observe and report, and Z had no business accosting M in the first place. But it seems he was within his rights to be carrying a legal firearm.

Even if the neighbors had kicked him off the watch for carrying a gun (assuming they knew), he might still have confronted M if he thought M was a burglar.

As I read it, nothing seems to count legally except the limits of the SYG law and whether the prosecution can prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Z was not in fear of his life.

It sounds like an uphill climb for the prosecution, especially since the lead investigator has testified that he has no evidence to contradict Z's version of events.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer. I just watch them on TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 01:03 AM

I don't know how old that SanfordFl manifesto is- it may well be from before the SYG law - but it is quite clear that under it, Zimmerman was way out of sync with its explicit instructions.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 04:46 AM

Can I add a new offence to the US statute book? Saying "burglarising" in stead of "burgling"?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 10:50 AM

Problem with carrying a gun is that it becomes a option for solving problems and if you make a mistake, you end up like Mr. Zimmerman. Seems to me that Songwronger's 73 year old lady thinks a lot like Mr. Zimmerman, and has a pretty good chance of ending up the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 11:24 AM

The Florida SYG law was passed in 2005.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 03:18 PM

////A number of the early news stories that I read on Yahoo mentioned that according to the rules of the neighbourhood watch group to which he belonged, he was not supposed to be armed. A couple of reports said that Z.'s carrying of a gun had been a source of some contention within the neighbourhood watch. Whether those stories are still available on line or not, I have no idea. I did not save the pertinent urls (if that's what they're called). /////

I'll back you because I read the same thing. Cannot be armed and cannot confront. Observe and report only. If that's the case, it's going to be hard for Zimmerman to say he was acting in the capacity of a neighborhood crime watch captain or whatever it's called. He was acting on his own in the capacity of a vigilante. I'll be very surprised if the crime watch committee is going to back him and open themselves to a possible lawsuit. I think they'll cut him loose and say arrivederci sucka.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 03:36 PM

As they should.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: meself
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 04:11 PM

Just to clarify: I wrote, "A couple of reports said that Z.'s carrying of a gun had been a source of some contention within the neighbourhood watch" - I should have said "contention between Z. and the rest of the neighbourhood watch." I clearly remember one article that said he had been kicked out of the neighbourhood watch over this gun issue, and so that he could not have been 'officially' on duty at the time of the incident. However, there has been so much misinformation, and slanted and exaggerated information, whether in support of one side or the other or just to have another story, that it's hard to know what the truth is. It's curious that some of these apparent 'facts' have quietly disappeared from subsequent reports. No doubt the trial will be enlightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 04:42 PM

I doubt that his status on or off the community watch will have any bearing on the charge of second-degree murder. Even if they'd encouraged him to carry a gun (and apparently they didn't), the issue would still be whether he had sufficient reason under the law to shoot someone with it.

The difference would be important in a civil suit against the community. If the watch program kicked him off, or if they told him explicitly not to carry and he did it anyway, that suit would probably go nowhere.

If they'd encouraged him, it would be very different.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Songwronger
Date: 25 Apr 12 - 11:29 PM

AN OBAMA DRONE KILLS A 16-YEAR OLD BOY:

A group of Pakistanis met in Islamabad late last month to discuss the impact of U.S. drone strikes in their communities. One of the attendees was a 16-year-old boy named Tariq Aziz, who had volunteered to learn photography to begin documenting drone strikes near his home. Within 72 hours of the meeting, Aziz was killed in a U.S. drone strike....

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/7/us_drone_kills_16_year_old
Tell me again how Obama gives a shit about Trayvon Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,josepp
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 12:24 AM

How about if I tell you that I that I don't give a shit if Obama gives a shit about Trayvon Martin or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 11:52 AM

None of us really needs to give a shit Wrong'un!!

Not while you're piling it high and selling it cheap.

You save us the bother of buying shovels.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 12:20 PM

Lots more on Z for people interested in reality:

http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-prelude-shooting-194235114.html

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 12:38 PM

From the article

"There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."

That's a pretty classic statement of bigotry. Martin was deemed suspicious because he was black.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 02:42 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge - PM
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 12:38 PM

From the article

"There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."

That's a pretty classic statement of bigotry. Martin was deemed suspicious because he was black.
....................................................................


MORE OF the article"

"A criminal justice student who aspired to become a judge, Zimmerman also concerned himself with the safety of his neighbors after a series of break-ins committed by young African-American men.
Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account.
"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."


So, when the neighbors complain about the white men in sheets with torches, YOU will tell them that they are making a classical statement of bigotry??????

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 05:15 PM

I'll tell them to look for men in sheets with torches, not white men. You look more like a racist than ever before, juicybrucie.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 06:49 PM

Ricky! Yer on fire tonight! Quoting partial text and implying things out of context. Making inane arguements which only prove your arguements are unsound and inane. And then calling someone racist with no basis. Yer lookin fer trouble. I expect yer gonna find it sooner or later. Especially when you commit libel, in print, like you just did.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 07:53 PM

Sure gnu. I expect you go round in circles a lot. The basis is there. Read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 26 Apr 12 - 08:04 PM

I read it Ricky... yer guilty as charged. In your own words. Denying it and not apologizing for it just makes you look like a Richard.. er, Dick. Yeah, that's it... a big Dick.

And, as for the removed post (not involving Ricky), I received three emails about it. Fact is, I never said ANYTHING except Z should have been charged right away and that NObody here knows the full story before the trial. My questions CANNOT be construed as me being a racist. If you, and YOU know who you are, ever do that again, I will fuck you over in any way that I can you ignorant piece of shit. The least you could do is become a member you fucking coward.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 05:12 AM

Look Wildebeest

I am a member.

Juicy Brucie was the one who, as I said, looked racist.

The proof was there in his own words - he just repeated that black youths had been robbing and so it was legitimate to suspect any black youth. That is a racist statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 08:31 AM

Dickie,

What I did was point out that the quote YOU had posted was taken out of context, and was BY A BLACK WOMAN that YOU were calling racist. I made no judgement- YOU DID.

STOP CALLING PEOPLE RACIST WHEN THEY DISAGREE WITH YOUR BIGOTRY.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 08:54 AM

Spoken like a true bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 09:15 AM

Greg F.

Since you attack me instead of making a contirbution to the thread,

I will point out you are the only acknowledged racist here- YOU make racist comments that you know to be lies.




"Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:00 PM
...
Beardie is also the guy that, in the thread about cash only for second-hand goods, wanted us to know that the sponsor of the bill was a Dumb Ni--er.."

His justification for this lie?

Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:31 PM

For Max and Beardie's benefit, from the archives:

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: pdq - PM
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:37 PM

Just for the record, the idiot behind this bill is a member of the Louisiana House of Representitives.

He is Black and a Democrat."


NOTE THIS WAS NOT EVEN MY POST, and that Greg F reads "He is Black and a Democrat." as "the sponsor of the bill was a Dumb Ni--er."

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 09:17 AM

And I have noted that NOT A SINGLE SO-CALLED "LIBERAL" on this thread has EVER taken him to task, nor has even stated that they do not agree with him, since he supports them.

What does that say about the vast majority here???

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: meself
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 10:54 AM

I'm going to try to get a point in here before the usual suspects get yet another thread closed.

I don't know why we are to take the latest referenced article as any closer to reality than are the host of previous articles. One question I am left with: a number of the early articles said that Zim had for a time worked as a 'security guard' in an 'unlicensed establishment that served alcohol' (or some other such polite wording), but had been fired because of his aggressiveness, particularly in an incident in which he had roughed-up a female patron. More generally, the reporting on the Zim story has been so unreliable and irresponsible that I don't see the point in appealing to any new article that emerges purporting to provide relevant background or details about the Zim/Martin incident, now that we know there will be a trial, in which information will given under oath.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 10:56 AM

Juicy Brucie - he was lampooning your view there. I think it was obvious to everyone but you.

Chew on this. A black person may say "Mahnigguh" to another by way of greeting - but it is offensive if a white person does so. A white person who says (whether quoting a black person or not) that some blacks did X so all blacks do X is a racist. For the same reason, no matter how many Jewish people I have worked with, I'd have to be very very careful about telling another Jewish person a Jewish joke.

If you don't understand this it rather underscored my earlier view of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:34 AM

As long as everyone's getting along . . .

meself has just hit the nail on the head. Most the rest of you are blowin' smoke out yer arses.

First, we know that people cherry-pick items in the 'news'. (News is what a talking head reads from a teleprompter or says because his/her editor wants people to believe this or that depending on the editorial policy.)

I can no longer be arsed to read back to determine who said what about whom. Some of you who seem to know bugger-all about the case or its realities figure that calling the other guy a misguided twit gives you credence. Ain't so. It just means you wouldn't be selected to a jury that has to give an impartial verdict/assessment of the defendant's actions and whether or not there was a murder committed.

In short, you're no better than the news to which you subscribe. People here have stated over the years that they find certain news sources too leftish, liberal, rightish or conservative. Diogenes would be wasting his time on this thread, imo. This thread is about games and hatreds that show folks to be little better than those they pillory, not a search for truth and hopefully justice.

A pox on both sides' houses. I hope they do a better job in court.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 01:20 PM

One of these days Beardie may post my apology to him about the mistaken identity issue- I can't be arsed to look it up, but its in the archives.

Until then, I hope he seeks professional help.

And now, back to our broadcast..........

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 01:51 PM

One of these days Greggie boy may stop chasing me to make personal attacks- BUT I DON'T SEE any effort by those he supports to either distance themselves from his tactics, or get him under control.


Greg, your apology was NOT accepted- since you feel that it is OK tpo make personal attacks, YOU will get back as good you give, with some extra for getting away with this shit because of your political views ( as shown by previous edits that remove any comments YOU don't like, but leave your objectionable comments unanswered.)


You are trying very hard to shut this thread down, by your tactics. I hope you do not, but asking you to be reasonable is a waste of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 02:16 PM

Ricky... I never said you were not a member.

I shall take my leave yet again. Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 02:22 PM

Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 07:00 PM

"I never said you were not a member"

"The least you could do is become a member you fucking coward."

Come again, Wildebeest?

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: gnu
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 09:27 PM

Thanks bb. Saved me from coming back to point out Ricky is not taking his meds or is taking too much. Or perhaps is just trolling and having a lark at my expense.

Right. I really have to get out of this thread now. It's gone all to hell. Not just the conjecture with no support... the name calling with no support and the quoting out of context are, if possible, worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Zimmerman to be Charged
From: GUEST, Richard Bridge on the Big Mac
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 02:51 AM

I'm quite happy to stand on what the actual words on this thread say. They say what I say they say.

This thread has reached the name-calling point where it is all heat and no light. It is closed. --mudelf