BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'

Subject: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 11:26 AM

Mrsleveller, in her role as an organiser for the Workers' Educational Association, has been running free yoga classes, mainly for the benefit of people with severe learning difficulties who value the exercise. Now the evangelical christian organisation in whose hall they take place has thrown them out, saying that yoga is "unchristian" and allows the devil to enter into a person. They've also stopped a pilates class. Bloody nutters!

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 11:32 AM

Is there a friends/Quaker meeting house nearby? They have a rather more open attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 11:34 AM

Oh! I thought you meant Yogi Bear was unchristian. He's actually part of an obscure sect of the Picts known as the Pictinics. Now, THEY are basket cases.

Hey... at least let me get my hat and coat first eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,Hookey Wole
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 11:35 AM

Expose & ridicule the fundamentalist fukwits as widely as possible in all local newspapers and websites...

Do they own the hall or rent it ?

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 11:37 AM

Okay, well, there are a whole bunch of mainstream Christian churches in this town who think yoga is great, and who welcome yoga classes. That is...Anglicans, Lutherans, United, Quakers, Catholics, etc. So, I suggest that the yoga class simply relocate to a far more sensible church, and leave those Evangelicals to stew in their own insanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: theleveller
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 11:43 AM

It seems to be happening a lot:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/christians-get-into-a-devil-of-a-twist-over-yoga-1259655.html

Anyway, she's found another venue at the local school.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 11:49 AM

we had a recent case where some church or other said the same to a peaceful yoga group, but I can't find the article, so don't know what damnation of Christians objected.

sandra

"What damnation?" was the question asked many years ago by a customs/immigration official whose first language was not English when asking a visitor for more specific info on their branch of christianity.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 11:51 AM

They ain't the first, Leveller.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:01 PM

Christian fundamentalists are mentally ill people.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: bobad
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:03 PM

Some Muslims don't dig it either: "A council of muftis in Malaysia issued a fatwa over the weekend banning yoga for Muslims, claiming that the sweaty 'Oms' and other Hindu elements of a standard 60-minute yoga class could "destroy the faith of a Muslim."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1862306,00.html#ixzz1ssciCvck

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:05 PM

All God-botherers are nutters.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:06 PM

Just as a BTW, "evangelical" does not always equal "fundamentalist", and vice versa.

Unitarians, where are you? :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:06 PM

They won't let the Arthritis support group have a raffle. Its all abit weird - nobody wants to win 'the prizes' - such as they are. Its just an opportunity for those who can afford it to put another couple of quid into the collecting box.

Theres just NO sense of proportion with these people.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:06 PM

I like vanilla flavour best.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:13 PM

Come to Penkhull. The CofE village hall is quite relaxed about yoga. Though not Tarot readings, interestingly.This is on grounds of being possibly psychologically damaged, not on theological grounds I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,Lilyfestre
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:16 PM

Some schools around here are of the same opinion. The teachers (including myself) get around it by saying they are breathing exercises because that is exactly what yoga is, movement with (intentional) breath.

Nutters is the perfect word for it.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:16 PM

'Just as a BTW, "evangelical" does not always equal "fundamentalist", and vice versa.'

That's true, but I doubt you belong to a group that puts its foot in the door while evangelizing, shouts in one's ear while evangelizing, acts superior to others while evangelizing.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Becca72
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:16 PM

Gnu - you owe me a keyboard! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Megan L
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:20 PM

Gnu bend ower till a skelp ye here i wis sittin quietly mindin me ain business eatin ma tea and then a hid ta go and get stuff tae clean up ya big scunner

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:22 PM

"Unitarians, where are you? :~)"

Even "Unitarian" is not a simple, cohesive group. Unitarian churches in various places run the gamut from 'barely distinguishable from Presbyterians' to 'far-left, free-thinking philosophers'.

I was once a Unitarian in a group about 75% to the left end of the spectrum.

...I..ummm..practiced some Yoga, and never saw the devil.

Whatever you want to call these Christian groups, they are beyond silly and close to being dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:27 PM

I'm sure Yogi is a Roman Catholic. He was born to a large family in St.Louis and is easily one of the top catchers to have ever played the game. Although known for his "Yogi-isms,' when it comes to baseball most recognize him as a genius. Anyway, I'm sure he's Catholic.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,Hookey Wole
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:36 PM

Whatever label religious sect they'd all define themselves as..

too many of 'em seem to have such an unhealthily devout obsessive belief in the Devil to rival most satanists...!!!???

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:42 PM

Fully paid up members of the "How Dare You Club" if you ask me, people calling themselves "christians" usually are nutters. I hope Mrs Leveller is rising above what really amounts to discrimination.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 12:57 PM

'Just as a BTW, "evangelical" does not always equal "fundamentalist", and vice versa.'

That's true, but I doubt you belong to a group that puts its foot in the door while evangelizing, shouts in one's ear while evangelizing, acts superior to others while evangelizing.

True, and thanks for knowing it!


As far as being "nutters," it might be helpful try to think of this as a cultural collision-- they do not know much about your (musicians') culture, really, nor do you actually know much about theirs (denominational/religion). The places where these cultures intersect is just a really narrow part of the wedge. It is always possible that you MIGHT win a new a friend.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 01:15 PM

The most effective way of dealing with a church that discriminates against you is this: go to some other church that does not discriminate against you.

There are some Taoist parables illustrating this principle. When you practice Taoism you learn to move like water through life...harmoniously. Water does not get upset when it encounters an obstacle, such as a rock. It flows to one side or the other of the rock until it finds a path around that obstacle...and then it proceeds calmly on its way. If the water was foolish enough to get upset about the rock, and refused to move on and find another more harmonious path to the sea, then the water wouldn't get anywhere, would it? And neither would the rock. They'd be locked in combat there for a very long time, and it wouldn't help either one of them.

Most people seem to prefer to hang around the scene of the dispute for ages, yelling, "Oh, you horrible rock!" They call up all the other people they know and talk to them about how bad the rock is. They write to the editor and start threads on the internet about it. If the rock is similarly reactive to them, then it will get really upset at them too, and it will call all the other rocks it knows and tell them all about the issue as well, and maybe consider legal action...and they will all agree how really evil the water is! And it will go on and on. It will get nastier and nastier. Everyone will have a rotten time.

Nature isn't like that. Nature quickly finds the harmonious path to the objective (which in this case is to practice yoga). People become addicted to their disputes...but the teaching of Taoism is to let go of such addictions, because they only block you.

If one church doesn't like you, simply find another church that does like you. And forget about the one that didn't like you. As long as you remain upset about them, you're emotionally in their control...and you're the one who's upset. If you forget about that dispute and do something that makes you happy instead, you're not in their control any longer. So go somewhere else, do your yoga there, and be happy. Your real objective, after all, is to practice yoga, not to reform and re-educate the Evangelical congregation.

Dead simple. But you'd have to surrender your addiction to your anger and your defensive pride in order to do it.

Consider if they stayed angry at you...but you forgot about them entirely, stopped worrying about them, and instead focused on something else that makes you happy. Who is then suffering? You or them? Who chose the harmonious path? Who didn't? Who is moving on? Who is stuck (like a rock)?

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 01:28 PM

Oh shit, Bonzo and I agree...

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: gnu
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 01:33 PM

John... hahahahaa!

Spaw... Yogi Berra is indeed a Cat'lic. Did he get his liver transplant yet? I met him when I was about five. It was over an hour's drive to his cottage on one of the Great Lakes. I was sooo excited and then SOOO disappointed. "That's not Yogi Bear!" I was told again, rathern sternly, who he was. I still didn't catch it and asked, "If he's Yogi Bear, who is Boo-Boo?" Caught some nice fish though so I was happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,Hookey Wole
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 01:51 PM

... Taoist's never heard of 'water erosion' !!!???

or accelerated chemical processes to dissolve the obstructive rock more quickly...


... even dynamite !!!???


What if the rock contains toxic minerals and taints all the water flowing past polluting all life downstream..???

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:00 PM

Okay, this will be drift from the specific Yoga issue, but:

A representative to our state house of reps lives in town here, and we see him about some times. Before a prior election, he asked me to "remember me at election time", and assured me that he was trying to do things like combat the teaching of evolution in the public schools. He did not say "encourage the teaching of creationism as an alternative". Shortly after that, a local group, I think avowedly pagan, put up a simple sign identifying their gathering place at one of their homes. He promised the community he would "get them out of there". I never heard the outcome of that.

Should you just consider it to be "finding another course to the sea" if someone dams up the stream bed you have been in, scoops you out of it in a bucket, and dumps you out somewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:02 PM

Beautiful, LH.

sandra, thanks for that. Love it!:-)

Reminds me of the bumper sticker, "God protect me from your followers."

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:04 PM

Nature isn't like that. Nature quickly finds the harmonious path to the objective

Far out, LH. In nature it's all kill or be killed and everything killing everything else in one mass orgy of survival of the fittest. Darwinism ain't fun - far from Taoist principles of Wu-Wei, nature's way is crash, bang, cataclysm and life defined by death, disease, heart failure, stroke, cancer and shark attacks (see how smoothly that fecker is shaped to Wu-Wei it's way through the water just to tear something to shreads). All in all I'd say it makes Alien look like ET.

In Eastern philosophy The Buddha attains enlightenment by sitting peaceably beneath a tree (nice work if you can get it); in Western Philosophy Christ attains enlightenment through the tortured agonies of being nailed to one. The Cathars had it right: Nature is Hell and the only way is up.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:11 PM

I suppose that Jesus didn't yawn and stretch a bit when he woke up in the morning. That could be construed as yoga, which is, of course, as we now learn--unChristian!

I must warn my wife before she goes to her yoga class this afternoon. After all, she teaches Sunday school, and it just wouldn't do to have one of the Sunday school teachers practicing yoga!

I think I'll convert to Druidism. Trees aren't always trying to tell you what you can and can't do.

But then, the church we go to doesn't either. Other than a few basics like it's not nice to kill other people or steal stuff. Things like that.

And they'd really prefer that you don't sit there belching loudly during the sermon......

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,Hokey Wole
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:15 PM

.. and errrrrmmm.. how effectively did Taoists flow harmoniously around invading Japanese armies..????

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:34 PM

This story makes me cry. A thousand blessing on Mrs. Leveller (and you, Leveller, for supporting her). Learning disabilities are the most difficult disabilities to manage. There are very few effective strategies that we have to offer, and most of those strategies require a lot of time and expense. Yoga can help a lot, though, and when the classes are free, it is wonderful.

I find it both curious and disturbing that certain groups repeatedly use moral, ethical, and religious grounds to attack programs that enable people who are vulnerable.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:38 PM

Buddha had already done a great deal of other stuff in his life, some of it quite rigorous, before he sat down under that tree, Sweeney. ;-) He had tried just about everything. Very few people have the courage and tenacity to give up what he gave up (power, wealth, privilege, and luxury of the highest degree) or to do what he voluntarily did (face poverty and extreme ascetisism), and the same is true of Jesus. They both had tremendous courage. They both were willing to sacrifice all they had.

Did you ever read a book on Taoism? You might find it quite likeable. It's just common sense, in fact, and it doesn't require you to believe in a diety.

The harmonious path is simply the path that works best in a natural way. For a hawk, that path leads to catching a mouse. For a mouse, that path leads to avoiding the hawk. Yes, various things in Nature kill each other. Certainly. And we kill millions of animals to fill our plates, but most of us don't see the killing being done, do we? We hide from it. Doesn't change the fact that it's happening. I didn't promise you that nothing would get killed, I said there's a harmonious way.

The harmonious way of dealing with an Evangelical Church that doesn't like you is to find some other church with a better attitude toward you.

The question about Japanese armies...Taoist teachings always tended away from hierarchical thinking toward the freedom and equality of individuals, each to live totally freely in their own way, and to do no harm. A Taoist would normally avoid getting involved at all in things like wars, military service, etc. Sometimes you have no choice about it, though, because that thing comes upon you and forces you. If so, you deal with it the best way you can at the moment. Maybe you get killed. No philosophy on Earth can guarantee you won't get killed in a war, but you're a lot less likely to get killed if you look for peace during your life instead of looking for war. Ask the Japanese about that! They tried the path of war to solve their problems of limited land and resources, and look where it got them. They met utter disaster. So will today's warmongers...in time.

There is no magic answer that will make you totally safe against every scary scenario your mind can dream up just to score some point in an argument, but if your mind is busy dreaming up such scary scenarios...it might just be wasting its time. It could instead be having fun. The present, after all, is all you will ever have.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,c.g.
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:45 PM

So the vicar said we could use the village hall for yoga provided we only did the exercises and didn't do any meditation.

Sigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:48 PM

Well the Japanese armies are gone, and the Taoists are still there, so I suppose they flowed fairly well. Not the same ones by now of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:49 PM

Taoists, by the way, have never taken over anywhere, because they don't want to take over! ;-) They believe in leaving other people alone, since everyone is equal, and therefore entirely free to be themselves.

It's Confucianists who took over China, and they've got a rule and a hierarchy for everything. They want to take over. Confucianists are quite affirmative to the idea of fighting wars. It fits right in with their hierarchical and rulebound philosophy.

Psychologically speaking, the Japanese are probably the most rigidly Confucianist nation in all of Asia...although they don't call themselves by that label. They use other cultural labels.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 02:53 PM

I remember a case some years ago where a church hall expelled the yoga class. It's a bit of a problem if the church hall is the only one in the village.

What is it with people who are not content with not doing something they don't approve of themselves, or advising others not to do it, must make sure they ban others from it - even where the something is, unlike smoking, or similar activities, apparently harmless in real life, if not positively beneficial?

It does seem, doesn't it, that if the something makes people feel good in a way analogous to the way a certain style of worship makes people feel, then it must be prevented.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 03:02 PM

Was it Menkin? "Puritanism is the sneaking suspicion that someone, somewhere, is having fun".

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 03:08 PM

Mencken it was, fp.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 03:09 PM

Control freaks. You find them just about everywhere. The best thing is to avoid them if at all possible. And if not, well, then, you deal with it as best you can.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 03:13 PM

That guest was me, fp.

HL also said, "I never lecture, not because I am shy or a bad speaker, but simply because I detest the sort of people who go to lectures and don't want to meet them."

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 03:14 PM

Good quote, FrogPrince--for this thread, we can change it to "the sneaking suspicion that someone, somewhere is trying to make their life better."

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 03:41 PM

When I was at the Straw Bear Morris Dancing event in Whittlesea (UK) the church was kindly providing hot soup in the chancel and we all sat in the pews and supped. A man arrived wearing a very realistic devil costume (he'd been performing a mummer's play) He crept in and asked the man at the door "Is it okay if I come in? Will it offend anyone?" The chap roared with laughter and said "That's the first time the Devil hs ever asked to come in here, but you're very welcome mate!" I smiled and smiled. There were also men dressed as women with very large busts and red lipstick. The church folk just laughed. Now that's a sensible attitude IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 04:03 PM

Hmm. There seems to be a little Confucian here......

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 04:10 PM

Don't you feel that a religious group that is very defensive and hostile to anything and everything is palpably not confident or comfortable in its own skin? A strong and stable faith group wouldn't be at all phased by yoga, meditation, Morris men in strange costumes etc. It would be "All welcome, come on in!"

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 05:19 PM

I find it hard to understand why religious people don't pray for the devil. If there's a sinner who needs it, s/he's gotta be at the top of the list.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 05:59 PM

Did you ever read a book on Taoism? You might find it quite likeable.

For sure. I've got about 10,000 translation of the Tao Te Ching and several more of Chuang Tzu. In both cases I love the old Gia Fu Feng translations. Alan Watt's Tao: The Watercourse Way was important to me once & probably still is but it must be 30 years since I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Yoga is 'unchristian'
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Apr 12 - 06:22 PM

Okay, well, there are a whole bunch of mainstream Christian churches in this town who think yoga is great …….


Some years ago, the Methodist church (which I would consider as one of the mainstream Christian churches) in the next village threw the yoga group out for much the same reason.


DC