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BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing....
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Subject: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: GUEST,josepp Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:31 PM I understand that some people might feel the need to change genders. But I don't think that gives them the right to be considered actual members of that gender. Uh-oh, look out, I'm being terribly unfair and un-PC again. I don't care if a guy changes his gender but he has no right to expect me to think of him as a woman. Frankly, I don't. I think of him as what he is when you scrape away all the PC bullshit, all the makeup, all the feminine clothing, all the wigs and girly hairstyles, all the plastic surgery, all the lifelong estrogen shots he needs to take to maintain this facade--a castrated male. Do I think they should be allowed to compete in beauty pageants that are supposed to feature women? No. I don't really care, though, because I don't watch that shit anyway. But if I was a judge in one of those things and I knew certain contestants were transgender males, they are automatically discounted. I won't consider them for two seconds. Why? Because they're men! I get tired of this whining I keep reading about in the news: "I'm a beautiful, vibrant woman!" No, you're not. You're a bloke who cut his big sazech off so he can prance around in makeup and dresses without feeling guilty about being a man. You can get married to a man and if you're happy with each other, that's fine with me. You can dress how you want, I don't care. But DON'T tell me how I have to regard you. And, yes, I think you need to let a man know you're transgender before you get into a relationship. He has a right to know whther you think you're a woman or not. To me it's as silly as if some white man surgically changed himself into a black man and then starts telling me i have to regard him as a black man. No, I don't. I would have to regard him as an idiot though. Have at it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:50 PM Righto. Now I know exactly what you think about this, I don't have to wonder about it any longer, and I can get on with something else. Much obliged. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 12 - 02:54 PM Oh dear! Had an embarrassing surprise after picking someone up in a bar, have we? ---- From all I've heard and read, men who have become women have always thought of themselves as female and it was their lives before the operation (and all that goes with it) that felt fake and unreal to them. Do their opinions count, or only yours? |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: GUEST,josepp Date: 16 Jun 12 - 03:05 PM No, I have had no embarrassing episodes. I read about some transgender people whining that the rest of us must accept them as their new gender. Sorry, but no. And I don't give a damn how they regarded themselves their whole life. That doesn't give them the right to demand that I regard them the same way. People need to think about the consequences of their actions BEFORE they do them and not expect the rest of the world to change for them after the fact. Before anyone jumps down my throat, ask yourself if you could marry someone who was transgender. If yes, fine. I don't care one way or another. If no, then don't get on my case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Jun 12 - 03:07 PM I knew a nice couple who were cross dressing transgenders. Probably scare the shit out of Josepp.....but I figure someone already has.................LMAO.........Tell us the whole story. Was the "she" a "he" or were you going the other way and the "he" was a "she" or what???? Inquiring minds don't really give a shit but find your rant humorous as hell......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: GUEST,mg Date: 16 Jun 12 - 03:28 PM Yes..absolutely you should tell someone you are dating. There are other things that should be standard disclosure as well..what medications you are on for what. Other than that, I have no input. I have read that we are going to see a whole range of gender possibilities in the future..or now really..due to drugs, hormonal treatments etc..mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: JohnInKansas Date: 16 Jun 12 - 03:44 PM I have known at least three persons whom I have met, and know of a similar number from the immediately prior generation, who were born with all of the "equipment" of both sexes. In these half-dozen cases the exceedingly rare decision of the parents was to leave them alone with what they were born with, at least until the child could decide how they wanted to be recognized. The decisions of the persons affected varied. All of them suffered some difficulties from refusual of some of their associates to accept their condition, but for the most part they lived out their lives as well as others with lesser anomolies of body features. The much more common response has been to surgically alter the infant, and let the parents choose which sex they should be. The surgical procedure is a lot simpler than altering the emotional responses, and at least half of the parents apparently choose the wrong one, according to numerous reports from the kids when they've matured. I see no reason to expect that mismatches between the "sense" persons have of what they are should depend absolutley on what particular visible accidents of birth may have occured, and no reason not to allow as much choice, growth, development, and when necessary, medical alteration as is needed for the individual to be as happy as they can be. If the choice is to be free, then the choice must be accepted by their associates - otherwise the expressed opinions of others will be a tremendous barrier to their own choices. Certainly a person who knows they are unable to bear children should make that known to a potential mate, along with whether they're addicted to legal or illegal drugs, unable to hold a job, leave the cap off the toothpaste and the seat up on the crapper, or any other "little quirks" that might affect the compatibility of the potential relationship, but demanding that they "wear a label" at all times because "somebody might fuck them by accident" (the only concern that's really evident in the first post?) is closely akin to the "scarlet letter" of centuries' old bigotry. It's simply time to get over it, and I woud urge that we all make an effort to do so. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Don Firth Date: 16 Jun 12 - 04:18 PM A non-issue. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: GUEST Date: 16 Jun 12 - 04:31 PM I suspect a guy or gal would eventually figure it out for themselves. And, I recon it all would be their business - not ours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Leadfingers Date: 16 Jun 12 - 04:34 PM A very good friend of mine was becoming ill with the effort of 'adopting the male persona' evry morning , so he had the op is now content to live as a woman I say Damn Good luck to 'her'. I sure as hell cant imagine the mental strain involved in that decision . |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Greg F. Date: 16 Jun 12 - 05:00 PM Good ol' Josepp- holding up his end as an obnoxious, prating bigot. Big surprise, yes? |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: GUEST,Max Reiner Date: 16 Jun 12 - 05:30 PM Quite frankly, transgenders are mentally ill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Jun 12 - 05:35 PM So are people who live in NYC. It goes with the turf. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Jeri Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:01 PM Control freaks who believe they can tell other people how to live are just screwed. It doesn't work unless all the other people know the control freaks are in charge of them. Can be amusing to watch the control freaks try though... up to a point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:02 PM Greg, I was just completely shocked myself. Totally flabbergasted! I am glad he got that off his chest and can now start on other things that annoy him.........like people who think perhaps. Yeah, that'd be a good one for him to address....................... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Bernard Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:04 PM Just because someone doesn't see things your way doesn't necessarily make them 'mentally ill'. To hold that belief is much the same as racism and homophobia. Someone who feels the need to 'change gender' usually has to go through a lengthy process of interviews and counselling and living as a 'pre-op' before they are permitted by the medics to go through with what some people see as 'self mutilation'. Changing gender is of no interest to me, nor are those who have undergone such a change. However, I do not think it gives me the right to sit in judgement on what they have done, or are about to do when those who have been trained in such matters deem that they have made their decision rationally and in an informed way. On a personal level I find it difficult to regard a transgender person, be they pre-op or post-op, to be anything other than the gender with which they were born. Okay, they may think like the opposite sex (though I somehow doubt that!) and they may feel more comfortable adopting that persona - they may even cosmetically appear to be a different gender... but that's as far as it goes. As 'Guest' said, it's their business, not ours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: GUEST,999 Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:31 PM This so-called issue reminds me of Yossarian's plight in Heller's 'Catch 22'. Yossarian doesn't want to participate in the war. Why? Because people are trying to kill him. However, because he's sane enough to recognize that, he's too sane to be taken off active duty. There are always twits coming along to decide who is right and who is wrong, as if their opinions--and that's what they are--mean something to the wider world. They don't. The trans-gendered people I have met have made a decision that is right for them. They didn't consult me in the first place so I assume they feel no need to consult me after the operation. The reference to t-g people as being mentally ill: who asked? |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: artbrooks Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:39 PM I can't see that it the business of anyone except the individual and those he/she is very close to. Certainly, it's none of mine (or josepp's) |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: gnu Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:45 PM Technical question. Does transgender include guys with breast implants? |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Bobert Date: 16 Jun 12 - 06:56 PM Here's another way perspective, joez... You meet the woman of your dreams... She is drop-dead gorgeous, has that little laugh where she flicks her long blond hair just the way that turns you on... Best of all, she is into you... She listens to you, laughs at your lousy jokes and loves you like you have never been loved... Got it??? So a year into your relationship you wake up one day thinkin', "I gotta marry this woman" so you buy the ring, take her to the most romantic place you know, get down on one knee and ask her to marry you... She looks down at you and says, "Joseph, you know I love you with all my heart and would love to be your wife but there is something that you need to know.............. Get it now??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:00 PM "Sex" and "gender" aren't synonyms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Jeri Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:22 PM From Wikipedia: Transgender (play /trænzˈdʒɛndər/) is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles.--------------------------------- Bobert, I don't get it. He'd probably freak out. It's not about her, it's about him. I think the world changes and people can't adapt so they blame others. "It's YOUR fault society no longer feels it's acceptable to sneer at you and I can't/won't stop." I remember--maybe we all can--when some white people would refer to people as "nigger" and those who didn't like it would mostly just ignore them. Gradually, that changed and most places I know of, if that happened, the person who used the word AT somebody would get an earful, lose friends, or get fired or get punched. I have little respect for people who hate and/or hurt others because of their bigotry. They are, however, lost in a world that has change to the point where their beliefs and behavior makes them no longer fit in. If they can't try to learn, there's nothing left to them but speech. (If they wish to avoid prison.) Personally, I find seeing people as people first, without labels, makes it less likely to leave me looking like a jerk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Dave MacKenzie Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:27 PM There's no gender in English, just sex. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Leadfingers Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:29 PM Like so many things - Classic are the recruits in the forces asking each other what will they do first time they are under fire - until you are there you dont know ! And making decisions without information about another persons mental state is even sillier . When you have watched a good friend go through months of mental anguish , and then seen the change when the decision is finally made you MAY just have a slightly different opinion ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: bobad Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:43 PM GUEST,Max Reiner if by mentally ill you mean that they are suffering mental anguish by living their social lives with the apparatus of a gender they were born into but knowing in their minds that they really of the opposite gender then you are right. If, on the other hand, you believe that they are mentally ill for feeling that they were born of the wrong gender, then you are sadly misinformed and I suggest that you educate yourself on the issue. You can start by reading some scholarly literature on the subject: transgenderism and the concept of gender |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Janie Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:44 PM I understand that some people might feel the need to change from being jerks or trolls. But I don't think that gives them the right to be considered actual members of thinking, civil people. Uh-oh, look out, I'm being terribly unfair and un-PC again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:49 PM What about people who deeply sense that they have been born on the wrong planet? |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:51 PM Or to the wrong family? |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Jun 12 - 07:52 PM Or in the wrong nation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Janie Date: 16 Jun 12 - 08:20 PM Interesting radio show this afternoon on that "wrong family" theme, LH. Don't know if you can get the podcast from Canada, but it was this week's "This American Life" program on NPR, produced by Chicago Public Radio/PRi. But I digress. What about people who were children, and became adults? Or parents who were young and became old? Or people who were blond haired, and became brown haired? What about rose bushes that are red, but sport blossoms that are orange? (more common than non-gardeners know.) Makes no sense to me that I should have to acknowledge that bloom there is orange. Nosiree. That is a red rose bush, it says so right on the label and it has always bloomed red, and I don't care if that one branch has a few blooms that are coral orange. I'm gonna call them red anyways. So there! |
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Subject: Lyr Add: RUFUS AND BEVERLY (Mark Graham) From: GUEST,Dharmabum Date: 16 Jun 12 - 08:27 PM Guess it's 'bout time to throw some music into this thread. RUFUS AND BEVERLY (Mark Graham) Rufus could play the piano And he drove an American car. He worked nine to sundown In an office downtown To save us from nuclear war. Beverly came from Seattle, Played the mouth harp quite well, so they say. She used to write songs In an old-timey style In hopes she could sell them one day. Rufus and Bev became sweethearts And nature would not be denied. They did the things lovers do under the covers As happy as clams at high tide. Then one morning said Rufus to Beverly, As they lay in the fondest embrace, "Dear, I have to confess With some minor distress There's an issue I fear we must face. "For this body you see here before you Was once more like yours than like mine, And I sought the compliance of medical science To change to the sex masculine." Beverly stared back in amazement, Then said, "Rufus, don't rue what you've done. For I have surrendered a masculine gender For this other more feminine one." So, these lovers went back to their passions, And their passions were scarcely diffused. And the knot was soon tied, though deep down inside, They were ever so slightly confused. Recorded by Bryan Bowers on "For You," 1982, and by the Rude Girls on "Mixed Messages," 1990. filename[ RUFUSBEV MG |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Bill D Date: 16 Jun 12 - 08:30 PM Or in the wrong century... I have known personally 2 'serious' changers. I respected their need and decision, though the 'visual' change was not convincing. It is very difficult to assume another gender and pass convincingly. Some people just 'know' that the body they were given does not match the brain chemistry and hormones that came with that body. It ain't fair... I have met several others who had switched or were planning it. In all cases, I tried to adapt to their new identity, as it was not my place to judge. We humans come in many assorted types, and we'd best adapt to each other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: gnu Date: 16 Jun 12 - 08:57 PM Bill D... "We humans come in many assorted types, and we'd best adapt to each other." Unfortunately, there are some who can't adapt, accept or adopt a compassionate viewpoint. Fact is, not all humans have the intelligence to be able to do so. Go for a walk or a drive and observe... there are a lot of people who can't... well... they are just stunned as me arse. Yes, I know that isn't news. It's still soooo sad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 16 Jun 12 - 10:16 PM josepp wrote I read about some transgender people whining that the rest of us must accept them as their new gender. Sorry, but no. And I don't give a damn how they regarded themselves their whole life. That doesn't give them the right to demand that I regard them the same way. So this tells me that you treat men and women differently. Why? Is one sex superior? You won't treat a transgender man like a man because he was a woman and women are inferior? I bet this means you think less of men who choose to be women because they want to be women, and you won't accept women who choose to be men because you know that in his heart of hearts he was once a physical woman? Unless someone tells you that this is the case, and I don't know why they would, then all I can say is that you're a fool for treating the sexes with different levels of respect, and if you feel you've been fooled into treating a transgendered person different from their original sex, well, you are a fool and that's not their fault. BTW: I notice that josepp hasn't been back. I suspect too much common sense and disdain have chased his sorry bigotted ass out of this thread. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Bobert Date: 16 Jun 12 - 10:41 PM Hey, love who you love.... Simple... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:32 AM Given that josepp's real desire may have simply been to ruffle some feathers and provoke a lengthy thread full of the kind of strong reactions that might be expected here, Stilly, he may just be sitting back and congratulating himself on having succeeded in those objectives. In other words, I think he was probably just shit disturbing because that's what he enjoys doing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:45 AM GUEST,Max Reiner: "Quite frankly, transgenders are mentally ill." Speaking of which:(Recently posted on another thread...) Just because someone doesn't love you the way you want them to doesn't mean they don't love you with all they have. Ralph and Edna were both patients in a mental hospital. One day while they were walking past the hospital swimmingpool, Ralph suddenly Jumped into the deep end. He sank to the bottom of the pool and stayed there. Edna promptly jumped in to save him. She swam to the bottom and pulled him out. When the Head Nurse Director became aware of Edna's heroic act, she immediately ordered her to be discharged from the hospital, as she now considered her to be mentally stable. When she went to tell Edna the news she said, 'Edna, I have good news and bad news. The good news is you're being discharged, since you were able to rationally respond to a crisis by jumping in and saving the life of the person you love. I have concluded that your act displays sound mindedness. The bad news is Ralph hung himself in the bathroom with his bathrobe belt right after you saved him. I am so sorry, but he's dead.' Edna replied, 'He didn't hang himself, I put him there to dry. How soon can I go home?' GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Jun 12 - 01:54 AM You're undoubtedly correct, Little Hawk. Trolling for entertainment is such an unattractive activity. It's one of those immature impulses where just because one can, doesn't mean one should. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Dave Hanson Date: 17 Jun 12 - 05:17 AM Peronally I find this so called josepp offensive in the extreme, guest josepp at that, he doesn't behave like a guest. I though guests weren't allowed to start BS threads ? Dave H |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Leadfingers Date: 17 Jun 12 - 06:48 AM Unless someone has stolen a name , josepp IS a member |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 17 Jun 12 - 10:52 AM People with attitudes like those expressed by josepp seem to not understand the difference between anatomy and physiology. Sexual identity is not determined by which of two available sets of genitals we are born with (anatomy). It is determined on the microscopic and biochemical levels (physiology). Assuming that an individual's having testicles means he has the same hormones sloshing around in his bloodstream in the same percentages as every other person who happens to have testicles is absurd. There are only two possible sets of gonads with which one may be born (except in the cases of hermaphrodites), but there is an infinite variety of ways in which the chemicals which are the actual determiners of sexuality may be excreted and combined. Sexual identity is not like a bar magnet with "male" on one pole and "female" on the other, but a continuum which includes all possible mixtures of maleness and femaleness. In a way, I think it would be better is we were all born hermaphrodites. Then we would be able to use our male or female genitalia to whatever degree our individual physiologies dictate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: GUEST,josepp Date: 17 Jun 12 - 11:59 AM ////What about people who deeply sense that they have been born on the wrong planet///// Well, don't you know? We must regard them as aliens and not insult them with Star Trek conventions and tales of alien abduction because, you know, aliens aren't really like that. If you disagree then you're obviously a bigot. And if you're a skeptic, you're even worse! |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:16 PM Believe me, I've had days when I very much had the feeling I'd been born on the wrong planet. I bet it's happened to a lot of other people too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: GUEST,josepp Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:37 PM But do you regard yourself as an alien and demand that others should regard you the same way? Or would you think that such a person probably was not quite all there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: GUEST,999 Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:43 PM 'Or would you think that such a person probably was not quite all there.' I think you mean ". . . quite all here." |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: GUEST,josepp Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:48 PM Or what about someone who feels they were born in the wrong century? Suppose he tells you he lives in the 19th century and dresses that way and demands that you must never say the year as 2012 but rather 1812. Basket case or just someone who's a little bit different? |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Jeri Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:54 PM Why would anyone care so much about what OTHER people believe? I go back to the "control freak" theory. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Megan L Date: 17 Jun 12 - 12:55 PM Just because someone marches to the rythmn of a different drum does not make them right or wrong just different. For each of us must follow our own path. It is respect and care that helps us make that journey smoother? perhaps not but it makes the journey better for us and all we meet whether thier path follows our direction or indead travels the other way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: Barb'ry Date: 17 Jun 12 - 01:03 PM Josepp. I don't know whether you are (justifiably) embarrassed about your initial statement and are now trying to turn the discussion into farce but your last comment seems ridiculous. People's sexual orientation or gender identification is their own - why do you feel the need to comment or ridicule what is none of your business? Judging someone else's life when their behaviour is not impinging on you/your family etc, is, in my opinion, just wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: About This Whole Transgender Thing.... From: MGM·Lion Date: 17 Jun 12 - 01:19 PM I am much exercised as to what triggered this thread in the first place. The thread title suggests that, either here or elsewhere, there has been a 'transgender thing' so much under discussion to such an unavoidably prominent extent that josepp just had to contribute his 5 pennorth to this unignorable ongoing controversy. Where? Why did he feel so driven to comment on this oh-so-prominently-topical 'WHOLE ... THING'? What set all this off anyhow? ~M~ |