BS: Cursive Not Taught?

Subject: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 11:52 AM

Note that it is "curSIVE," not "cursING!" 'Nother thread for that, puleeze. ;-)

Yes, cursive handwriting is being taught less and less. No news flash, except for troglodytes. But there are situations where one can ONLY use handwriting. And cursive is faster and more elegant than block printing, much less caligraphy, which is very nice, but time-consuming.

And writing in cursive is a mental exercise. Doing it requires more contemplation than punching out characters with a keyboard. One must focus and be "in the moment." A writing instrument can write in any written language. Writing in cursive promotes formation of new brain neuron connections and reinforces existing ones, and is very beneficial for people with "different" brain styles.

Discussion? Sentiments?

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:01 PM

Oh, please bring back the days of Spencerian drill!

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:27 PM

While I might tend to agree just for the discipline of learning purposes, I'd prefer to not a give a damn one way or the other. My Mom had simply beautiful handwriting. She wrote very quickly but the letters flowed with some flourishing embellishments while still being eminently readable. I tried that for years and never could do it. Eventually I became a very fast and competent printer using all large case letters just making the caps bigger.

At one point in my life when my signature had turned into a poorly done scrawl, I came into a job position that required my signature all the time, often a hundred or more every day. The scrawl soon became a faster scrawl ala your favorite Doctor and that's what has become my signature.   You might possibly see the idea of some large P's and maybe two small t's but the whole thing is pretty dubious but hard to copy as well.

The discipline of readable writing needs to be taught but overall it will be of little importance to kids growing up in this world.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Beer
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:50 PM

Dad's mother was a teacher and although he only went to grade 6 (due to his father needing him on the fishing boat.), he continued practicing his writing. he had beautiful penmanship and could write with his left and right had. Then he would take a pen in both hands and write his signature backward. Held in from of a mirror they were identical.

Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:10 PM

Although it degenerated to the point where I had to sit down and practice to recover legibility a couple of times (when I couldn't read my own notes) I've managed to maintain a rather pretty cursive "hand," right up until my kid left an air hose looped across the yard that tripped me up and broke two fingers on the hand I use.

It still is worth being able to scrawl things when needed, but I've wondered why my bank hasn't rejected my checks, since my present signature doesn't bear much resemblence to what's in their records.

re writing backward, I did that some just for a joke, but I found it convenient in lots of meetings at the office (when some nosy &%^#! tried to read over my shoulder) just to write the notes in Greg. It was also occasionally handy to be able to read over the sec'y's shoulder, but most of them gave it up before I did - - - and the "hand" is just as - maybe more - important in shorthand as in cursive, for legibility.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:13 PM

Mispelled "GREGG" was just a typo. Sorry 'bout that.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:21 PM

I used to have a session of handwriting every day, using music to impose rhythm on the children who found it hard. And moving round the room, and miming piano playing - Joshua Rifkin was just the right rhythm. And writing patterns in the manner of Marion Richardson. (Scroll down a bit: Patterns) But the impositions of the curriculum with ever more constraints on time removed the opportunity.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:47 PM

As an editor, I developed an even, highly legible handwriting style for marking up manuscripts. Then I got an in-house editing job where everything is done in electronic form, and my handwriting has reverted to the chicken-scratch I used as a student. Except my signature, which remains completely legible.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:05 PM

It also teaches fine motor skills and coordination as well as mental discipline. It's an old-time, long-time indicator to physicians about certain nerve/mental disorders as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:35 PM

My thirteen year-old neighbour pops in from time to time for a bit of help with his homework. I have to bite my tongue - his handwriting is absolutely appalling. He's apparently near the top of his class, but good grief, my little six year-olds in class 2 had better writing (1968). Capitals in the middle of words, letters sticking up, scribbles and squiggles, no joining-up of letters. I suppose it's true, these teenagers will only need to tap away at a keyboard. We rejoiced at school when the teacher deemed us ready to do Joined-Up Writing. Those days are gone, sadly!

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:42 PM

I blame it on the trend (from when I was young) for italic script.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 03:04 PM

My handwriting deteriorated after my first course in draughting 37 years ago. I can print very quickly but the quality lessens. The only time I write is when I sign my name.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: BrendanB
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 03:10 PM

I have a vague recollection of reading some research which seemed to indicate that children who were taught to write using a cursive script were more likely to spell accurately. I think it was something to do with the way cursive writing encourages you see the word as whole because you seldom lift your pen off the paper when writing a word whereas you do in other writing styles. This was some years ago when such things had a professional relevance for me and I cannot now recall the provenance of the research - it makes some sort of sense however.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 03:55 PM

I'm like you, Spaw...my signature is completely unreadable which, I guess, is good because no one could duplicate it.

The old days were better for learning cursive and I loved it, but even earlier days were pretty draconian. My dad was a south paw who was forced to use his right hand to write; his handwriting, while legible, suffered for it.

My 8.5 yr old grandson is eager about learning cursive. I don't know if they are teaching it or not. I'll ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 04:05 PM

Strange because in UK schools cursive writing is the norm with many schools actually joining from the start. Most schools I have taught in have a daily handwriting practice often as the children come in before registration. I wasn't taught cursive at school so have had to take it on later in life in order to teach it!

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 04:38 PM

Both of my parents had beautiful handwriting, my father in particular. He had taken a business course at some point, and one of the things they taught was cursive writing. Spencerian? I think maybe so. His handwriting was ornate, but eminently readable.

I was taught cursive writing right from the start. I could already print, but my first grade teacher started me out with cursive, and although my handwriting looked pretty good, it was nowhere near as nice as my father's.

Like gnu, I think my handwriting went to pot when I went to work as a draughtsman and production illustrator for the Boeing Airplane Company. All the lettering, call-outs and such, on the drawings had to be in "Boeing Standard Lettering," block letters one-eighth of an inch high. I got very fast at it, and now tend to write notes to myself in a somewhat sloppy version of "Boeing Standard Lettering."

These days, when I sign a check or something, it's readable, but sloppy as hell!

I keep telling myself that I need to stoke up my ancient Parker fountain pen and teach myself how to write again.

I've watched the way kids write these days, and I don't see how they have any control at all the way they've been taught to hold a pencil or ball-point pen. I think they'd destroy a good fountain pen if they ever got their hands on one.

I used to love writing with a fountain pen.

(Do you suppose I could sue Boeing?)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 05:54 PM

I used to despair of getting the children to hold a pen or pencil correctly, at 8 years "I've always done it like this." I don't know what the infant school plan was, but it didn't include the fine grip between opposable thumb and forefinger, resting on the middle finger. Fruitlessly I told them that when they had to do three hour exams, their hands would seize up from trying to write fast enough. Bah!

We were supposed to mark them on writing, but given no time to teach. And we needed to unteach before that. Practice is only valuable if they have been taught to write properly, with the pencil moving in the right direction round the letters so it is ready for the next one. Reasonable facsimiles with d started at the top, and a going round clockwise like an alpha can sneak under the radar if done during registration.

One nephew started in the infants with print - the other arrived after they had taken on board joining from the start to improve spelling skills. His writing was so much better. And, as an adult, he actually writes letters.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 07:08 PM

I was first taught to print and then, in about second grade (age 7) started on cursive (Palmer method). One learned quickly in a Catholic grade school in 1952....

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 08:49 PM

"It's an old-time, long-time indicator to physicians about certain nerve/mental disorders as well." Rapparee

Do they have a medical term for most physicians' handwriting?

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: framus
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 11:02 PM

Like Raparee, I was taught to print, but at age six my Ma taught me how to write. Unfortunately, I forgot how to print! Back at school, I was mortified, until the teacher learned what had happened.
I cried at the time, but now, as proud as bejaysus.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 05:40 AM

I was taught both print and cursive writing at school, back in the '50s and '60s, using dip pens, fountain pens and ball point pens but still, from then to now, my handwriting looks like it has been done by a spider with a hangover. It starts out with nicely shaped letters of the right size but slowly shrinks in height and stretches out along the line. Sometimes words have to be edited to get the "t" tall enough to put the cross on and the dot on the "i" end up somewhere in the region, but not necessarily on the letter it was intended. Then there are the blots and multiple crossing-outs and corrections. On lined paper, I have troubled not drifting above or below the line but, on plain paper, the text can go off on at any crazy angle it chooses. When I make lists, successive lines tend to start just a shade to the right of the one above. Altogether, it's not a pretty sight.

As the main purpose is communication rather than producing a work of art, I always choose to type using a spell checker and the chance to reorganise my thoughts through cut and paste, where I can. If I have to use pen and paper then I tend to use block capitals. It may be slower but at least I can read it.

It may be a family thing. In the '90s our local primary school insisted that the children had to use fountain pens. One of my daughters used to get so much ink on her that she looked like an ancient Briton covered in woad.


DC

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 07:01 AM

I was originally taught cursive, but at about 13 I taught myself Italics, which I still use, as my handwriting in cursive was effectively inelligible. If I want to becompletely legible, I use a fountain pen, as ball-points encourage incomprehensibilty, at least in my hands. My signature ceased being legible when I joined the Revenue in 1969 and had to sign in every morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Acorn4
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 07:29 AM

With the advent of the Literacy Hour in UK schools, it rather got put on the back burner.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 09:18 AM

Penmanship is still very useful, depending on your job, and best learned while young, even if not perfected until one matures.

I am a procedural clerk at the House of Commons, and record the decisions and provided advice to members of various committees. I draft motions on the fly without access to a computer or printer, and sometimes have to write down translations that others read into the record. My draft minutes of proceedings have to be interpreted by others and entered accurately into our database. Were I unable to write quickly and presentably, my job would be laborious, not just for me but for others as well.

In the 1960s, I was taught the Ontario School Hand, which I produced execrably until I became an army officer in the late '70s and had to produce stuff which others could read, at which time I developed my own hand that fitted my tendency to produce acute letters, a trait of both our parents. I can now produce the OSH presentably, but not as quickly as my own.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 10:56 AM

My handwriting was never good. It was readable, but I couldn't make it 'pretty'.

Now... who needs it? If one really wants an elegant script for an invitation.... just get a few digital fonts!

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 11:24 AM

Curiously enough, my handwriting sucked all through school, despite my efforts. However, in adulthood I picked up a fountain pen. My handwriting improved considerably.

And last year for "gift-giving season" I gave my student aides all fountain pens, and they LOVED them. We talked a lot about pens and the activity of writing. They got an "outside the classroom" lesson that I am sure they won't forget.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 01:58 PM

Now... who needs it?

Well, one might need it for taking notes in class - assuming one wants to get an education.

Printing just ain't gonna cut it - or does one just video lectures these days with a cell phone?

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 02:45 PM

I've always had trouble with cursive writing. I was good at everything in school, except for art and handwriting. My hands and arms get fatigued very quickly when I write in cursive. I wonder if part of it is that I'm left-handed.

On the other hand, I can print very quickly and clearly. I worked 30 years as a government investigator, printing all my notes. No problem with fatigue, but I sure got a lot of ink on my knuckles.

My mother was left-handed but was taught to write cursive with her right hand. Her handwriting was very good, but she printed most things.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: BrendanB
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 11:55 AM

Joe, I am sure that you are correct regarding the left handed thing. I am left handed and my writing is execrable, and that's on a good day. My theory is that this because right handers pull the pen across the page in the direction they are writing whereas left handers have to push the pen which makes letter formation more difficult. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive Not Taught?
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 12:37 PM

Most left-handers I know write with their hands curled around the pen, which slants to the right, thus achieving the approved slant. I'm amazed at their determination, as it looks very tiring and quite unnatural. My mother, who was also left-handed, wrote a straight-up-and-down script with her left hand, and a fine Ontario School Hand -- but backwards and upside-down -- with her right. That was a really neat-o parlour trick.