The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes

Subject: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:02 PM

"Rosin The Beau" has got to be one of the most frequently reused melodies for new songs over the generations. Likewise "Rising of the Moon"

What are some of the others??

I am looking for songs that are generations old, and have been used and reused for songs across those generations.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:09 PM

The Winding Banks Of Erne is one title of the tune used for a number of songs , including The Durham Lockout and Tramps and Hawkers .

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:19 PM

"The Star of the County Down" (thought of as Irish though probably not) is ubiquitous. "Flower of Sweet Strabane" also very common.

I seem to remember an old joke that went "There's only four tunes in the whole of the Ulster singing tradition - and three of them are versions of The Star of the County Down!"

Regards

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Marje
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:21 PM

Are you talking about songs that are originally Irish and have been recycled, or songs that the Irish have nicked from elsewhere and recycled into Irish songs? Or maybe both?

Marje

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:30 PM

......as seen at Manchester airport shop. A cd '20 best loved Irish songs' included 'I belong to Glasgow'!

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:32 PM

The melody of "Banks of the Bann" is used, in some form, in a couple of hymns- "Lord of All Hopefulness" and "Be Thou My Vision".

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:41 PM

Is that Banks Of Bann tune known also, with different words, as With My Love On The Road?

~M~

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 12:52 PM

'Rosin the Beau'? Are you some kind of pervert?

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:03 PM

pervert? I don't get it.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:35 PM

Jed, the tune is called 'Rosin the Bow' not 'Rosin the Beau' which has an entirely different meaning!

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:40 PM

"I am looking for songs that are generations old, and have been used and reused for songs across those generations."

From what I have seen, I don't think that's possible, Jed. There are too many decades where nobody was paying any attention to the music of ordinary people.

Sure, we have some collections, and later there were recordings, but I don't think there's enough info to do what you hope for.

For one thing, we have a lot more lyrics than tunes written down.

That said, you might look into the tune for "Lambs in the Green Fields." I don't know how many generations it spans, but it's been a popular tune.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Megan L
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:43 PM

Actually sturgeon it is shown under both names. rosin the bow makes sense to a fiddler but Roisin is an Irish girls name so it is possible that someone hearing it whenit swam the water thought it was a tune about a beautiful girl.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:44 PM

'Rosin the Beau' is quite commonly used as the title, and it is purposely used as a double entendre.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:49 PM

Except that would be Roisin the Belle, Megan!

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 01:59 PM

Star of the County Down, isn't that the Dives and Lazarus variation? It's also used as a hymn tune of course.
As was pointed out to me, Rosin the Bow, is the basis for Dick Gaughan's tune to Both Sides the Tweed, although I'm not sure he realised it at the time. I thought it sounded like, Canan nan Gael, till the Rosin the Bow similarity was pointed out.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 02:06 PM

leeneia - these titles we've been discussing are exactly what I was looking for. I just hope to jog my memory with this discussion. There are some long loved, long remembered melodies that keep reappearing over the years, with new lyrics ... I'm just hoping to build a list of those melodies, to consider using one or two for a project.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 06:32 PM

Homes of Donegal. Crooked Jack - no wait! that's the Star of the Co. Down. Roddy McCorley. Dawning of the Day (Raglan Rd, William Bloat).
The Blarney Roses (Lakes of Pontchartrain).

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 06:33 PM

I forgot: Homes of Donegal (My Little Son, Tramps & Hawkers).

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 11:18 PM

Good. I play early music a lot, and apparently my notion of 'an old song' is different from yours. I'm glad you are finding what you need.

Another tune you might like is 'Kelvingrove.' I've heard it with modern words by John Bell, "Will You Come and Follow Me?" and as the old song, "The Shearing's No for You, My Bonnie Lassie, O." I think catters have mentioned other songs to the tune.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: framus
Date: 17 Jul 12 - 11:19 PM

Surely you have to go to the Nationalist thread for unique tunes (?).
Four Green fields, The West's Awake ?
Ready to be shot down here.
Almost every "rebel" tune has it's equivalent in our Proddy equivalent.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 12:46 AM

The Limerick rake is often used
Tom Paxton used it for The High Sheriff of hazard

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 01:11 AM

And Ewan used The Limerick Rake for Champion At Keeping Them Rolling ~ more likely where Paxton got the tune from than from the original.

~M~

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 01:17 AM

Framus - good point. The Loyal Orange heroes of Comber (Come Out Ye Black & Tans). The Sash (Ulster Fry & Champ, or Lord Nelson))

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 04:18 AM

"Youghal Harbour"/"Boolavogue"/"Sweet Omagh Town" turns up in lots of places.

REgards

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Marje
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 05:38 AM

The "Dives and Lazarus"/ Star of the Co Down tune is also related to The Parting Glass and Molly, Lovely Molly.

Marje

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 05:47 AM

Irish Molly Oh and the Sash My Father Wore - of course

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 05:48 AM

Star of County Down used also for some sets of Maria Marten ~~ e.g. as sung by Shirley Collins on No Roses.

~M~

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 07:34 AM

Which came first would be difficult to say but 'Croppy Boy/Lady Franklin's Lament/McCaffery

Here's another list of songs that use the 'Dives& Lazarus' tune.
Star of the Co Down
King Herod & the Cock
Lowlands of Holland
Stormy winds do blow/We Shepherds
Banks of the Nile
Miller of the Dee
Ist strain of shanty 'Lowlands, Lowlands, Low.' and many more.

I would guess the Child Ballads in this list have been using the tune the longest.

Somebody mentioned 'My irish Molly O'
which is related to
The Girl I left Behind
The Roving bachelors
I walk the road again (NE American)
The Merrimac (Cumberland and Merrimac)
Jim Jones (Aussie)
The Turfman from Ardee

How about 'The Irish Girl'?
The Jam on Gerry's Rock
Peter Emberley
Farmer's Son and the Shanty Boy.

Kevin Barry=Rolling Home to Merry .......


Pretty Girl Milking her Cow=
The Last Fierce Charge
The Green Mossy Banks of the Lea
Erin's Green Shores
Terence's farewell
Send Back my Barney (Original of 'My Bonny')

etc etc etc.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 06:02 PM

Kevin Barry- Will My Soul Pass Thro' Old Ireland, The Rebel Soldier (U.S.)

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 07:38 PM

MGM, in response to your question re "Banks of the Bann": I don't know. I'm not familiar with that song you mentioned.
"B of the B" also uses the same melody as Lakes of Champlain as performed by Martin Simpson.

Andy Irvine used the "Star of the County Down" melody for "There's Sure to be a Row".

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Jul 12 - 07:52 PM

and the Wild rover for the Clover advert....probably better known to most kids than the original.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Jul 12 - 03:10 AM

"Banks of the Bann" is close to "Be Thou my Vision", certainly. I believe several other hymns use the air also,

REgards

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:10 AM

Vivien Richman sang "Handsome Mary, the Lily of the West," to the "County Down" tune on her 1959 Folkways album, Folk Songs of West Pennsylvania.
Snippet:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000S9AIFK/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp

Richman's words are from an 1878 printed version. Liner notes associate the "Star" tune with "the Irish version" of "Lily."

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: weerover
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 10:30 AM

Londonderry Air

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 07:08 PM

Yes, "In Derry Vale" to the same Londonderry Air as ""Danny Boy": but not much newer in origin, though lesser known.

Van Diemen's Land is yet another to the tune of Star of the County Down.

Ewan McVicar used "Southwind" as the tune for his song, "All the Tunes in the World".

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: weerover
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 01:32 PM

I also have to Londonderry Air: To Eire; Acushla Mine; Anthem for Ireland; Emer's Farewell; In Derry Vale Beside the Singing River; Irish Lover; Would God I Were the Tender Apple Blossom; Flood Tide That Ebbs; McSwiney Taught Us How to Die; O, Jeannie Dear;
Oh Boy, Danny (parody); Oh Mary Dear; Loves Wishes.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 04:15 AM

The Wild Colonial Boy uses the Tramps and Hawkers tune. What was it known as when TWCB was first published?

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 04:24 AM

Was that the tune used for Dylan’s I Pity the Poor Immigrant, as well?

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 11:16 AM

The usual version of Wild Colonial Boy uses a different tune from Tramps and Hawkers: it has the same waltzy meter and occasional similar phrases, but not the same tune.

The Tramps and Hawkers tune does get used for quite a few songs, as does Puir Roving Lassie in the Scots canon, tho not sure about any in the Irish repertoire using that latter tune.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 01:20 PM

It seems that The Wild Colonial Boy was first printed in 1881 in A.T. Hodgson's "New Colonial Songster". Anybody got that? What did Hodgson call the tune?

It's only very slightly different from the modern Scottish "Tramps and Hawkers" tune, the main changes are in pacing and emphasis (TWCB is a waltz, T&H isn't). It would be nice to know if those slight divergences happened in Ireland, Scotland or Australia. TWCB had versions set fully in Australia and partly in Ireland - are the part-Irish ones the original or a re-import?

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:27 PM

Sweet Betsy from Pike. I know lots of Irish songs to that tune.

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 02:44 PM

Just listened to a few versions of Wild Colonial Boy on YouTube: Clancys, Dubliners, Irish Rovers: they all beef it up into 4/4. Nothing like T & H!

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 08:16 PM

tattiebpogle,people likle theones you mention, piss around with music all the time, the wild colonial boy was axxording to the penguin australian folk song book.. in 3/4

Subject: RE: The Commonest Recycled Irish Tunes
From: weerover
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 06:31 AM

The Garden Where the Praties Grow, Father O'Flynn, The Girl I Left Behind Me, Irish Washerwoman, Men of the West, Skibereen, Rocks of Bawn, Enniskillen Dragoons, Boys of Wexford, Boyne Water, Mountains of Mourne, Bold Thady Quill, Croppies Lie Down, Cruiskeen Lawn, Garryowen, Lilliburlero, Paddy O'Carroll, Mo Cailín Deas Crúidhte na m-bó, Rising of the Moon, Savourneen Deelish, Shan Van Vocht, Teddy O'Neill, The Harp That Once..., The Low-back'd Car, Valley of Knockanure, Wearing of the Green, She Lived Beside the Anner, Sprig of Shillelagh.

All of the above are tunes to which I have sets of lyrics well into double figures.