song of the shepherd, dick miles

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 12 - 05:30 PM

The song has been ditched.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 07:54 AM

NB: Both Bugsy and I are referring to a spam post that has been removed.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 05:43 AM

That crap has been making the rounds since 2006.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Bugsy
Date: 03 Aug 12 - 03:45 AM

Now THAT must be an Olympic Gold Medal Contender for "THREAD CREEP"


CHeers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 03:34 PM

Sedayne Art etc.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 03:32 PM

Jings! Crivvens! Help ma' kilt! Whit's that yer sayin', Dick? Nae Scots words? I'll lay ye fower spurtles and a muckle mealy puddin' tae yer tiddly-widdly tattie bogle that they are...

Sedayne Art, circa 1990 (with apologies to Dudley D. Watkins

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 03:22 PM

Beam me up Scotty, and GreatScott,but.... they are not Scotts' words

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 02:17 PM

Mony hoots tae the lot o' ye! Whit braw lads ye are ane an' a'!

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 01:14 PM

and you beat leadfingers to a 100, so we all lived happily ever after

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 01:00 PM

To be sung to the tune of Jock stewart

I can parrock, and twin and cheat with a skin,
I can write a great song with all these words in.
what would willie Scott say were he here today
Och noo wheer is the plagiarising

Oh they're easy and free wi ma words dee yi see
wi parrock and cheat and wi skin
its no the words that belong tae me
but the order that I put them in
With fulsome credit to Spleen Cringe for the original Idea and willie Scott for a good line
john

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:05 PM

I can parrock, I can twin and cheat them with a skin,
I can write a lovely song with these words all used therein.
What would the answer be if we could ask old Willie Scott,
I think he'd say the whole affair's a storm in a teapot.
Or would he? Is a teapot in the average shepherd's kit?
(I'll check it out on Google and I'll tell you in a bit).
The answer is a gig where both Sedayne and Dick appear
Where they can work the whole thing out over crisps and beer.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:04 PM

johncharles wrote:-
"Perhaps we should call the thread a dead Parrock"

Maybe we should.... after all, one of the songs at the centre of the centre of this thread does not seem like an example of Norwegian Blues to me.
Let's look at one of the lines that has already been quoted:-
"But I wish the cauld east winds would never blaw."
Does that sound like pining for the fjords to you?

EXPLANATION Anyone who has no idea what Mr. Charles and Mr. Smith are on about needs to watch this video

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:43 AM

I've got no interest in Cyril Tawney; I may join in the choruses with good cheer in singarounds (Ian McCulloch of Durham sings a splendid Oggie Man and I extemporised a fiddle accompaniment when of my Moorbrook Chums sang Sally F&E the other night) but otherwise they don't figure much in my paticular neck o' the Folk Woods (he says, thus summoning up Kiplingesque visions of night air cooling & badgers rolling at their ease etc. which is pretty much how I think of Folk to be honest; pure bucolia. If I want reality, there are far more exciting, and relevant, ways of getting it. I dare say this is why I find Dick's stuff so agreeable).

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:29 AM

an especial interest in

i.e. Dick Miles' youtube videos - which I always look at & delight in whenever he posts links here - and The Shepherd's Song from the singing of Willie Scott - which I've lived with for the last 30 years but only recently felt moved to learn it & sing it myself. Like I say, Dick - you've made a fine song - all I'm doing is pointing that there's no way that line isn't a direct borrowing from The Shepherd's Song. Nothing you (or anyone else) has said here has convinced me otherwise, nor, indeed, that this is a petty issue, for all the reasons I've stated thus far.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:28 AM

but you have not answerd the question,DID YOU CONFRONT CYRIL AND ACCUSE HIM OF BEING A PLAGIARIST?
oh and thankyou JC,You are excellent at picking out every tiny detail, in case i am accused of something else ,as JC says i sang, we must parrock and cheat and twin with their skin

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:25 AM

Crediting work is an important principle. however,an increasingly acrimonious discussion about a mediocre song seems pointless.
Perhaps we should call the thread a dead Parrock; deceased, shuffled off this mortal coil.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:16 AM

p.s."we must parrock and cheat and twin with their skin"
this ordering of the words makes no sense

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:12 AM

and getting a trifle impertinent

Sorry - just entering into the irreverent spirit of the thread. Yesterday you called me both a pillock and an anorack.

Otherwise, like I say, I would only enter into something like this when in concerns something I have an especial interest in.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:07 AM

In the interest of accuracy what you actually sing is
"we must parrock and twin and cheat with their skin"
This preserves the internal rhyme giving the line its strength.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:03 AM

would you accuse me of filching a line if i had used a floating verse, "if, i had wings like noahs dove id go home to the one i love", this line occurs in Tawneys grey funnel line,The finest ship that sails the sea
Is still a prison for the likes of me
But give me wings like Noah's dove
I'll fly up harbor to the one I love
had previously occurred in a song called dinks song
did you ever call Cyril a plagiarist, i bet you didnt
here is dinks song(B.Gibson/B.Lomax/J.Lomax)
This is a blues traditional that has been performed also by Bob Dylan.
If i had wings like noah's dove
I'd fly up the river to the one i love

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:55 AM

Filched,you are overstepping the mark, and getting a trifle impertinent
if.. i had used the line,
I can parrock, I can twin, aye, an cheat them wi a skin,
however i do not, i use the words, we must parrock and cheat and twin with their skin, that is sufficiently different, i am using shepherding terms but it is worded differently,
i challenge you to take me to court, if you dont i must respectfully ask you to desist and in the words of a song, The piper and his bellows, go home and blow the fire, if you havent got the testicles to take it to court, i suggest like the piper you go home and blow the fire

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Ron Cheevers
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:37 AM

Watched the video, and I can't understand what all the fuss is about

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:00 AM

Oh come on, Dick - own up already, eh? I know they're common terms* but that particular line is filched, albeit, I'm sure, for the best of creative reasons and by way of the most noble of artistic motives etc. etc. but filched nevertheless, you old rogue you. In the video you ask for credit; so I'm urging you to give credit where credit's most surely due. Apart from anything such part-provenance makes the song more interesting & demonstrates the erudition & authority of its author, if not on shepherding, then on Traditional Song.

* Actually I don't, I have precious little shepherding experience & know them only from the Willie Scott song, though I once was in a band called Yan Tan Tethera (actually a duo of myself & renowned Viking expert / author / storyteller / singer / historian Thor Ewing) though I don't recall any of our repertoir having anything to do with sheep - it was just a nice - er - folky name.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 08:15 AM

sorry to interrupt the mutual admiration society, but i do not think using shepherding terms, parrock cheat and twin constitutes plagiarism, they appear to be commonly used terms by scottish shepherds, however if anyone wishes to sing the song, and use different shepherding terms such as graft and switch[steal] and scent[pi a new skin, you have my permission to do so.
may i remind everyone of the old saying when principle comes in the door common sense goes out the window

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:08 AM

Cheers, John. Rachel & I are resident at The Moorbrook in Preston on Friday neets (open song & music session with Tom Walsh, Neil Brook, Hugh O'Donnell, Ross Campbell, Vicky Lewis with occasional visits from Martin Ellison & LesB). Otherwise as Rapunzel & Sedayne we've a few things coming up (Fylde, London, Mosely) but can't really do too much else on account of we've only got 9 days holiday left before April.

If you want to PM me, my old moniker of Suibhne O'Piobaireachd is still active until Joe Offer does me to good grace of changing it to Jack Blandiver as I requested several weeks ago. Signing in here is always a pain on my laptop which resists such conveniences as keeping me logged in, hence my Guest status here. Otherwise good old fashioned email does just fine : [e-mail]

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 05:35 AM

Blandiver,
Off topic but personal messaging to you is not available. Just been listening to fiddlesangs on sound cloud. Some amazing stuff. Your version of the Twa Corbies is great, makes my singing sound very pedestrian; still I will keep trying.
Do you sing anywhere on a regular basis I would like to catch you singing live,as that is what it is really about.
john

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Continuity Jones
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:59 AM

I think I'd like to hear Dick singing...

Now we're talking. I'd love to hear Dick singing A Pair Of Brown Eyes, or perhaps more adventurously, Back To Black.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:42 AM

Hmmm. I think you're missing the spirit of this thread, Bugsy.

Seeing as Wille Scott's Shepherd's Song has been such an important feature of my life (especially these last few months) I couldn't not point out the source of the line. I never once said he shouldn't sing it, just that he should credit the source. This is integral to the Folk Gene by the way: it seeks, it sources, it delights, it celebrates, and breathes life from the muck, rust, stour & patina that is the minutiae of provenance by way of genuine spiritual renewal and enrichment. It's all very well saying There's nothing new except what's been forgotten, but surely Folk is all about the remembering, the cherishing, and making sure nothing is ever forgotten? Thus the Devil will always dwell in The Details...

Now, I think I'd like to hear Dick singing The Shepherd's Song as sung by Willie Scott - or the Amazing Bondel, or the Strawbs - I'm sure any one of these would do, or even all three...

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Bugsy
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:40 PM

Having followed this thread from the beginning, I'm losing the will to live.

There's a saying that goes something like, "There's nothing new except what's been forgotten"

I wouldn't be surprised if every line of this or most other songs haven't been written before by someone at sometime.

Get a life.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:57 PM

I just love the way she sings the above line

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:55 PM

Ni le mal tout ça m'est bien égal

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:35 PM

Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM

See what a minor row on Mudcat can do....

Pretty civilised by Mudcat standards. Dick goes over the top too quickly and then calms down.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 01:23 PM

A row implies least some bad feeling, of which, I trust, there isn't any here. But then again making a row is having a jolly good time, usually musical...

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 01:08 PM

See what a minor row on Mudcat can do for your viewing figures!

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 01:00 PM

68 views in 4 days on youtube looks pretty good
john

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 12:39 PM

I would like to thank everyone for their comments

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:04 AM

despite the apparent frivolousness of my previous comment it does contain a serious point
"Friends romans countrymen lend me your shears" has to be credited because it is so widely known
"I can parrock, I can twin, Aye, an can cheat them wi' a skin" is unlikely to be widely known and the temptation not to credit authorship rises.
Before the growth of the internet many similar examples of plagiarism went unnoticed. Nowadays a quick google search using the line in question produces the following
mudcat.org: Lyr Add: The Shepherd's Song (Willie Scott)
www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=143994&messages...Share

6 posts - 3 authors - 22 Mar
I can lamb the yowes wi ony o them a; I can parrock, I can twin, aye, an cheat them wi a skin, But I wish the cauld east winds would never blaw.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:38 AM

I give a reductio ad absurdum example, because i think there is something a little absurd about placing too much of a moral burden on crediting one's sources.

Which, let's remind ourselves, are in this case, two or three re-contextualised words: an instance of "plagiarism" so minor even those bringing it up aren't quite sure whether it constitutes a quotation or not. Mountains aout of molehills.

Sticking to matters of animal husbandry, it's a bit like saying, were I to use the term "wethers" in a song, I should be morally obliged to point out that the word (referring to castrated male goats or sheep) is also used in the folksong "When I was a Little Boy". And then provide a list of recommended recordings.

I might feel like doing just that. Or I might prefer to learn a new song, change my guitar strings, or do the washing up instead.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:28 AM

I went to an enjoyable singaround/open mic in an Edinburgh pub a few months ago. What if I had heard that song sung by a floorsinger whose name I didn't catch?

Or alternatively, what if I had heard that song sung by a floorsinger whose album I bought, who I then credited in a version I later sung, which was listened to online by someone who subsequently went and listened to that floorsinger's album, decided they hated it so much that they never wanted to listen to folk music again. Swings and roundabouts.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:24 AM

you're assuming that that particular song by Willie Scott is the only way Dick could conceivably have heard those words.

I am, because it is; that's the principle here which, I feel, is very relevant indeed.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:08 AM

borrowing ideas and lines is I am sure a constant headache for songwriters.
Only this morning, having made a promising start on my song: The Italian Shepherd I was to be frustrated when a friend pointed out that the first line
"Friends,Romans, Countrymen lend me your shears"
bore a passing resemblance to the words of some historic scribbler.
Ah me! back to the writing desk.
john

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:24 AM

"This is all the more essential in folk where someone hearing Dick's song might not even be aware of Willie Scott or the Shepherd's Song, in which case they might like to go out and enrich their lives by finding out."

Well, you're assuming that that particular song by Willie Scott is the only way Dick could conceivably have heard those words. And that there aren't other singers singing those words that Dick (or anyone else) might have picked them up from. Now you might well be right, but we're talking principles here, so it's irrelevant.

I love Willie Scott's singing too, but I think there's some confusion going on here between the fan's enthusiasm for introducing people to his recorded legacy and some sort of prescriptive moral onus on telling people where the song comes from wherever there's time.

I rather like that folkie thing of "I got this song from..." but it's optional as far as I'm concerned. Actually, if I were forced to preface every song that way, I'd be obliged to say things like "I got this song from singer X, though I think their singing is awful, and I really can't recommend listening to their version: but the words are great".

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:12 AM

I've written a song that features the line "meet me at the bottom/bring me my blue suede shoes". This is a mishearing of a line sung by Archie Edwards. (Which I know from his Blues'N Bones album; one of the best blues recordings ever made.)

Now, "meet me at the bottom" is a line that crops up in numerous country blues songs. It's a bit of a floater line. It's an instruction, I think, to meet at the bottom of a field (ie where black workers were working on a plantation) and is usually followed by "bring me my boots and shoes" (which is what Archie Edwards actually sings, though there are a few variants on this line in the various songs that feature it).

If I were to ever record this song and feature it on Bandcamp or on CD, I suppose I might conceivably have my name in brackets on the liner notes, or possibly assert copyright for the song, if there was any suggestion it might get played on the radio or anything. (Not very likely, but hypothetically speaking...)

It wouldn't occur to me to issue an instruction "please credit me with the words", for the simple reason that I am an amateur music-maker and I can't flatter myself that tons of people are going to be singing my song!

But there's an implicit "please credit me with the words" every time a musician sticks their name in brackets after a song title, or collects PRS from a song. Any criticisms anyone is making of Dick in this thread, they also need to be making of Gillian Welch and/or Alasdair Roberts, both of whom routinely drop traditional lines into their original songs.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:58 AM

I thought we'd done with this? Now the nitpicking begins in earnest! Still - anything that keeps this thread buoyant & gets people listening to Dick Miles can't be that bad, eh??

Anyhoo - I think it's important to acknowledge sources; even hip-hop artists do this (proudly) with their samples, though I'm sure a fair few Crimso heads were suitably outraged by Kanye West's Power, just as said Crimso heads would have outnumbered by the millions who loved Power who'd never even heard of King Crimson. Like my neighbour - I played him the original one day and it terrified the living daylights out of him (terrifies me too actually and I've grown up with it...).

So. Whilst such borrowing doesn't change the original, and says nothing about the quality of either, and may in fact (as Vic suggest) be more of an open tribute than plagiarism as such, I feel it pays respect to the canon. This is all the more essential in folk where someone hearing Dick's song might not even be aware of Willie Scott or the Shepherd's Song, in which case they might like to go out and enrich their lives by finding out. Like my neighbour kistening to KC for the first time, the original will blow their mind, The Traditional / Revival dichotomy makes such transparency even more important; and it's not a matter of nit-picking to point this out.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:52 AM

"I am sure someone with a deeper understanding of the law than I have will be able to pronounce on this."

from a legal perspective, there's no issue whatsoever: a line that has three words in common with a traditional song is neither here nor there.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:41 AM

oh, OK, well, whatever - people either will or people won't. Just like they sometimes do and sometimes don't anounce what a song is called/who it is by when they perform other songs by other people (or by Trad/Anon) at the millions of open mics and folk clubs and busking spots all over the world, every night of the week.

Seems like splitting hairs nonetheless. From either a copyright or an artistic point of view, a mountain is being made of a molehill.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:23 AM

At the end of the video Dick says people can sing the song but "please credit me with the words"
I am sure someone with a deeper understanding of the law than I have will be able to pronounce on this.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:22 AM

Nobody else put those words, those lines, in that order. Nobody else set them to that tune. Dick Miles wrote that song.

Subject: RE: song of the shepherd, dick miles
From: matt milton
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:12 AM

um, unless Dick has subsequently changed what was written beneath that youTube clip, I'm reading:

"song written by dick miles using a traditional tune"

So nothing about "every single word written by Dick Miles".

I think Dick is entitled to point out that this is nit-picking.

After all, Gillian Welch writes original songs that frequently feature lines from traditional folk songs. Used entirely deliberately and self-consciously. As does Alasdair Roberts. That doesn't stop them asserting authorship and indeed copyright claims.

God knows I disagree (vehemently!) with many the things our Mr Miles says, but in this case I can't help but think people are indeed picking nits.

again ,writing

"song written by dick miles using a traditional tune"

is a completely different thing to writing

"song in which every syllable is the sole and unique invention/property of Dick Miles". or indeed "all my own words".