Lyr Add: Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 24 May 02 - 12:03 PM

this is a bit wierd to me; I looked at Making Babies by Steam DT and my comments are quoted (without attribution)

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Reiver 2
Date: 03 Nov 99 - 06:26 PM

I'd never heard or seen references to O'Connell as a womanizer and father of countless illigitimate children. Frankly, I doubt it. In her book "An Illustrated History of Ireland", published in 1868 and republished in 1995, the author, Mary Frances Cusack "The Nun of Kenmare", rhapsodizes about O'Connell in words like, "O'Connell represented Ireland, and Ireland was represented by O'Connell. We have had our great men and our good men, our brave men and our true men; but to my poor thinking, the greatest of our men was O'Connell - for whoever approached him in his mighty power of ruling a nation by moral suasion only?"

She goes on at great length, calling him "the best of our men", the "bravest", the "truest", and one of the "best and noblest patriots which the world has ever seen." I've had little contact during my life with Catholic nuns, but somehow, I find it difficult to think that good Sister Mary Frances would have felt so strongly positive about him if he had been an immoral philanderer and profligate! Of course, I could be wrong, but I'd need to see some trustworthy references to back up the story.

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Philippa
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 03:39 PM

I don't know Paddy, but I also heard that the song was based on O'Connell saying that the steam engine would be the making of future generations.
The references to needing recruits for Her Majesty's army reminds me of Swift's satirical 'Modest Proposal' to breed Irish babies to feed the English.

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Barbara
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 03:04 AM

Y'know, this thread is an eye opener for me, too. Paddy's something of a local character, and besides knowing all the words and tunes to everything, he can talk both hind legs off a donkey. After a bit, I often find myself glancing around and sidling off.
I felt before his need for others to hear the information he has; this thread is making me realize that they AREN'T common knowledge, a lot of the things he talks about. I am seeing that he is our local custodian of oral Irish history, and that, like many other struggles, a lot of Irish history is missing, or has been rewritten.

He tells a fascinating story of his life and travels, and I've heard people laugh and question his veracity, but while it sounds fantastical, I'm not at all sure he's making it up. He IS an Irish storyteller, and singer, and good at it. So he may very well embellish.

He's a window to another time, and another way of passing information, and one that I almost overlooked.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 08:58 PM

Barbara, thank you ever so much! That song has always puzzled me. BTW, I've tried to find corroboration for Paddy's intro, but the only book on Daniel O'Connell I have only takes his story up to 1829. It is Oliver MacDonagh's 'Hereditary Bondsman' (1986). In his preface he promises a second volume. Has anyone come across it?

What I thought might be relevant to the song was O'Connell's reputation as a womaniser and father of countless illegitimate children. But MacDonagh states categorically that no evidence of this can be found at all, and explains it as a normal part of a myth growing up around a great public figure. Well, I don't know. - Susanne

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Reiver 2
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 10:33 PM

Barbara, that's fantastic! Now the incomprehensible begins to make perfect sense! Thanks so much. I never wanted to sing the song in public before because I couldn't explain what it was about, in case someone asked. Now that problem is solved. Great work and thanks again!

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: AKS
Date: 23 Oct 99 - 05:02 PM

Problem solved, thank you Barbara! The moon shines, it's past midnight here and my flu feels to be giving up, so off to bed I am. Good night and joy be with you all, kind people out there.

Arto K S

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Melbert
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 02:48 PM

Ah! Now the song comes to life!!!!

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Barbara
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 12:45 PM

And as for the words, Paddy sings the same as yours with only slight variations until you get to the last verse.Then it goes like this:

I am an old woman what's going on eighty
Scarsely a tooth in me head's to be seen
If the villain provokes me I'd make better children
Than ever he could with his engine of steam.
"Long life to you, woman," declared the bold tinker,
"Oh, long may ye live and have youth on your side,
And if all the young girls in ould Ireland were like ye,
O'Connell could lave[leave] his steam engine aside."

Now I hope all the people what live in this country
Ye'll start making children as fast as ye can,
And if ever Her Majesty calls for an army,
We'll be able to send her as many as Dan.

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Barbara
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 12:29 PM

Here's what Paddy Graber said about it:
It's almost impossible to give an Irish song without giving a history lesson along with it, so I'll start in right now. The song I'm going to sing next is called "Daniel O'Connell", and it's about a man who's a member of parliament, and he was known as "the great Liberator", God knows for why, for he had a voting record like Barry Goldwater. Actually he'd lived through the rebellion of 1798 and he'd seen the terrible things that had happened at that particular time to the Irish, and it just broke his heart, he didn't want to see anything like that happen again.
When the potato famine -- the Irish call it "the Great Starvation"; the English call it "the Potato Famine" -- when it came in 1845, 1846, he thought he would help the Irish people by voting to bring in a law which was known as "the repeal of the corn law" which in theory would make corn cheaper and the Irish people wouldn't need to die of starvation.
But because they couldn't own their own land, they had to rent land and they would grow crops and raise grain and cattle for export and from what little profit they could make from that, they were able to rent a small patch of land to raise potatoes. When the potatoes failed, of course, everybody died. And they were getting less for their grain so they couldn't even afford to rent the ground. [let alone buy corn at any price].
I guess the last temptation is the greatest (t)reason to do the wrong thing thing for the right reason. I guess he thought he was doing the best, but it certainly didn't work out that way.
He also invented [founded] the Bank of Ireland, and then of course he needed somewhere to invest the money, and he'd heard that Stephenson's Rocket had run from Manchester to Liverpool just a few years before, so he petitioned the High Lord Leftenant of Ireland, and he said in his petition, "If we only had a steam engine, it would be the making of future generations."
Well, the tinkers, the gypsies of Ireland, they heard this and they thought he was trying to make children by steam. This is where this particular song came from.

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: AKS
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 07:48 AM

What your friend says, Barbara, fits neatly into the picture here, doesn't it. People have always been rather suspicious about new technical inventions (must admit though, unfortunately, that in many cases the inventor himself should have been too).

terveisin (that's Finnish for 'with greetings') Arto K S

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Barbara
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 06:13 AM

I have a tape of a 80+ year old Irish friend singing this song, and he explains beforehand what that bit is about.
YOu are right about how it pokes fun at O'Connell's support of the Brits, but he also says that there was some common misunderstanding of the day amongst the poor folk about what the newly invented steam engine was supposed to do. (Possibly because someone said it would do the work of many men; something like that). Let me find Paddy's tape and I'll post what he says. I can also check his words agianst yours.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: AKS
Date: 22 Oct 99 - 03:44 AM

Hello again, kind people and thanks plenty!

Now having put the slightly different versions - and Reiver2's historical reference - here together I think the whole story makes sence if understood as a political make-fun-of-somebody protest against O'Connell's 'loyalism' in the matter: O'Connell supports the Parliamentary Reform (=making children by steam) whereas the 'real' Irish (the old woman and even the tinkerman!) would prefer supporting the Repeal of the Union (making them the old way). Or am I judging poorly?

Still it would be interesting to know whether the song was written in 'real time' or perhaps later. Any reference out there?

Arto K Sallinen

Subject: Lyr Add: O'CONNELL'S STEAM ENGINE (The Dubliners)
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 10:19 PM

I have just tried to make out the words that Paddy Rielly sings on the Dubliners' "Celebration" lp - there are a couple of words that I'm guessing at but this should be close:

O people of heart, I pray pay attention.
Listen to what I'm about to relate
Concerning a couple I overheard talking
As I was returning late home from away.
As I rode along sure I saw an old woman
Who sat in the gap; she was milking her cow.
She was jigging that tune called "Make haste to the wedding"
Or some other ditty I can't tell you now.

Ah the next came along it was a bold tinker
Who happened be chance to be passing that way.
The day being fine, they sat down together.
"What news of that man?" the old woman did say.
"There's no news at all, ma'am," replied the bold tinker,
"For the people all wish that he never had been.
He's a damnable rogue of a Daniel O'Connell,
And he's now making babies in Dublin by steam."

"Ah, the children are ruined!" replied the old woman,
"Or has the quare fellow gone crazy at last?
Or is it the sign of a war or rebellion?
Or what is the reason he wants them so fast?"
"It's not that at all, ma'am," replied the bold tinker.
"The children of Ireland are getting too small.
It's O'Connell's petition to the new Lord Lieutenant,
And he won't let us make them the old way at all."

"By this pipe in me mouth," replied the old woman,
"And that's a strong oath on me soul for to say--
For I am an old woman, and if I was near him,
I'll bet you me life that he'd rue the day.
For the people of Ireland they're very well known,
They gave him their earnings, them needing them bad,
And now that he is recompensing them for it
By taking the only diversion they had."

"Long life to your courage(?)," replied the bold tinker.
"Long may you live now with youth on your side!
If all the young girls in Ireland were like you,
O'Connell could throw his steam engine aside.
If I had the young men of Ireland around me,
And girls making babies as fast as they can,
And whenever Her Majesty wanted an army,
We'll be able to send her as many as dam."

Jon

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Melbert
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 06:44 PM

For Martin Ryan -

Well, maybe he has one! He can certainly afford it!

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 04:05 PM

Jeez! I must get new glasses. I read the thread title as "Daniel O Donnell & his steam engine"!

Regards

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Melbert
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 03:52 PM

The whole thing sounds like pure blarney to me!

Some of the lines I think arto has mis-heard I think go as follows:

Verse 3
Our children are ruined replied the old woman, or has the quare fellow gone crazy at last.....

Last verse

O'connel could thow his steam engine aside.....
We'd be able to send her as many as Dan.

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Marki
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 02:03 PM

It's also on a Dubliners album -- their 25th anniversary one, I believe. Paddy Reilly is singing lead on it. The words are clearer, but I'm afraid I don't get the meaning behind them either. Ever since I heard the song I have been wondering what the heck it means!

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Reiver 2
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 01:28 PM

I have the Johnny McEvoy recording of "Daniel O'Connell" (complete with the laugh!)and, like others, have never really understood the references alluded to in the original post here.

I suspect that it has something to do with O'Connell's putting the Parliamentary Reform effort ahead of that of Repeal of the Union effort that he had earlier championed. He was thought by many to have abandoned the cause of Repeal. In 1834 O'Connell called on Ireland to try a six-year "experiment" to let Repeal remain in abeyance for that time and trust the Whig majority in the English Parliament to see that Irish interests were protected. Because of their high regard for O'Connell the Irish people supported him, and found that it had been a false hope, as several laws were quickly passed that only worsened conditions in the country. Seumas MacManus in "The story of the Irish Race" says, "It was little wonder that in the late 'Thirties the Whig-befooled (O'Connell) found his popularity waning..."

As I say, I SUSPECT the background of the song reflects the events of this period, since it seems to express an anti-O'Connell sentiment that is somewhat surprising considering his great popularity at that time. I'm not sure about this, however, and it certainly doesn't explain the references to making children by steam engine, etc. If anyone can throw light on the meaning behing the song (a fine song, by the way), I hope they'll do so! (The words as given by Wolfgang are pretty much what I have.)

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: AKS
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 09:09 AM

Wolfgang, there's no laughing on my tape so obviously it's not JMcE. The spot I had most difficulty with seems to be Gaelic, no wonder I didn't catch that!

Nice to see (here at MC that is) that I'm not the only one in the world interested in 'backgrounds'. But a few words on it in the form of a joke eg, if possible, makes good speaks on stage doesn't it!

So we still have to wait to see whether this story has any serious background or is it only making fun of the technical progression of modern times.

It isn't PR either, Mel, I think I'd recognise his voice even though the tape really is of poor quality.

Thanks a lot and regs Arto K Sallinen, North Karelia (that is the 'province')

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 08:19 AM

Arto, if I read the lyrics you have posted I hear McEvoy singing. The lyrics I have posted are slightly different as you surely will see, but what you have posted is word for word what McEvoy sings (except for the unclear bits) on the LP-record "For the Poor and the Gentry".

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Melbert
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 08:16 AM

The version I'm famliar with is on a Paddy Reilly album. The words are slightly different, I think, though the general story's the same.

It's described on the cassette jacket as "Traditional"

When I get chance I'll check the lyrics and transcribe.

Beyond that I'm as mystified as you are!

Best regards Mel

Subject: RE: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 08:14 AM

Arto,
good song, I love it. I had posted it before, so maybe there you can find some of the bits you didn't find by listening: Daniel O'Connell .
However, I'd love to find out a bit more about this song too. I know it from the singing of Johnny McEvoy (could he be the one on your tape? He laughs very distinctively at one place on my record).

Wolfgang

Subject: ADD: Daniel O'Connell & His Steam Engine
From: AKS
Date: 21 Oct 99 - 07:58 AM

Hello all 'ye lovers of mirth'! Does anybody know what is the story behind 'O'Connell making children in Dublin by steam' and 'Lord Lieutenant not letting them be made the old way' as referred in the 'ditty' below?

I transcribed the lyrics (with some unclear / incorrect spots) from a cassette which I believe is a copy of a copy of some low-cost collection of Irish music 'for tourists', don't know the performers because there's only a hand written list of titles on. But the story struck me on first hearing: this is how the newsgroups / chats worked before!
Any idea of the author(s)?


Daniel O'Connell and His Steam Engine


Ye lovers of mirth I pray pay attention
and listen to what I'm about to relate
concerning a couple I overheard talking
as I was returning late home from a wake
as I rode along I met an old woman
who sat 'neath a cap just a-milking her cow
she was jigging the tune 'all come haste to the wedding'
or some other ditty I can't tell you now

On looking around me I spied a bold tinker
who only by chance came a-strolling that way
the weather being fine sure he sat down beside her
what news honest man this old woman did say
ah 't's no news at all mam replied the bold tinker
but the people will wish that ye never had been
(be sat ??... that) Daniel O'Connell
he's now making children in Dublin by steam

Arrah children (a-rue) then replied the old woman
or (...) is he crazy at last
is there a sign of a war or a sudden rebellion
or what is the reason he wants them so fast?
it's not that at all m'am replied the bold tinker
but the children of Ireland are getting so small
it's O'Connell's petition to the new Lord Lieutenant
that'll not let us make them the old way at all

By this pipe in me mouth then replied the old woman
and that's a great oath on me soul for to say
I'm only a woman but if I was near him
I'll bet you me life sure 'tis little he'd say
for the people of Ireland 'tis very well known
they give him their earning so needing it bad
and now he is well recompensing them for it
by taking what little diversion they had

Long life to your courage replied the bold tinker
and long may you live and have youth on your side
and if all the young girls in Ireland were like you
O'Connell could throw his steam engine (one sight)
I think every girl that is in this old country
should begin making children as fast as they can
so if ever Her Majesty asks for an army
we'll be able to send her as many as done

Hope you enjoy!

Arto K Sallinen, Joensuu Finland