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Subject: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: pdq Date: 27 Jul 12 - 04:54 PM controversy: The founder of a fast food chain that serves mostly chicken said he doeas not support gay marriage during an interview. reaction: "In the wake of these interviews, Thomas Menino, the Mayor of Boston, stated that the City would not allow the company to open franchises in the city. Menino subsequently wrote a letter to Dan Cathy, citing Cathy's statement on The Ken Coleman Show and responding: 'We are indeed full of pride for our support of same sex marriage and our work to expand freedom for all people.' In Chicago alderman Proco 'Joe' Moreno announced his determination to block Chick-fil-A's bid to build a second store in the city: "They'd have to do a complete 180,' Moreno said in outlining conditions under which he would retract the block. 'They'd have to work with LGBT groups in terms of hiring, and there would have to be a public apology from [Cathy].' Moreno received backing from Chicago's Mayor, Rahm Emanuel: 'Chick-fil-A values are not Chicago values,' Emanuel said in a statement. 'They disrespect our fellow neighbors and residents. This would be a bad investment, since it would be empty.' San Francisco soon followed suit on July 26 when mayor Edwin M. Lee tweeted, 'Very disappointed 'ChickFilA doesn't share San Francisco's values & strong commitment to equality for everyone.' Lee followed that tweet with 'Closest #ChickFilA to San Francisco is 40 miles away & I strongly recommend that they not try to come any closer.' The proposed bans in Boston and Chicago drew criticism from liberal pundits, legal experts and the American Civil Liberties Union. Kevin Drum of Mother Jones magazine said '[T]here's really no excuse for Emanuel's and Menino's actions... you don't hand out business licenses based on whether you agree with the political views of the executives. Not in America, anyway.'" question: Should Snapple be banned in your city because Rush Limbaugh was instrumental in giving theproduct world-wide recognition? Shoul Godfather Pizza be banned because it was started by a Republican? Where does the PC crowd really draw the line? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Ed T Date: 27 Jul 12 - 05:53 PM People are free to hold whatever views they want, though it may be a wise business decision to separate controversial personal views from business interests People are free to shop, or not shop, where they wish based on whatever they view as important. Most government agencies have ethical codes that protect individuals and business from unfair treatment based on situations like this one (different personal viewpoints. I expect this odd situation is fodder for legal action by the company and owner. Hopefully, the government agencies have deep financial resources, as they may need 'em. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: pdq Date: 27 Jul 12 - 05:58 PM Hopefully, the government agencies have deep financial resources, as they may need 'em. We, the taxpayers, are the government's "deep pockets", aren't we? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Ed T Date: 27 Jul 12 - 06:00 PM What is proported to be mayor's letter. Boston Mayor's letter |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Stilly River Sage Date: 27 Jul 12 - 06:12 PM pdq Where does the PC crowd really draw the line? You consider civil rights to be simply political correctness? Really? SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Georgiansilver Date: 27 Jul 12 - 06:24 PM Sadly people are not free to hold what views they want.. they have to go with whatever the government throws at them or risk imprisonment... is this right???? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: pdq Date: 27 Jul 12 - 06:39 PM "...they have to go with whatever the government throws at them or risk imprisonment... is this right?? Not exactly. They don't face prison, just the banning of their business (source of income) due to the whims of the PC Fascists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Ed T Date: 27 Jul 12 - 06:41 PM ""Sadly people are not free to hold what views they want"" So, exactly where does just holding views land you in prison? I suspect you refer to expressing those views, or taking it a bit farther, can get you in trouble in many world countries. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,999 Date: 27 Jul 12 - 08:23 PM "Should Snapple be banned in your city because Rush Limbaugh was instrumental in giving theproduct world-wide recognition?" Snapple should be banned because it tastes terrible, imo. And Rush should be banned because he's an asshole, imo. ################################## "Where does the PC crowd really draw the line?" Who is this PC crowd you mention? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Bobert Date: 27 Jul 12 - 08:28 PM Ed T is 100% correct... When you are in business and dealing with the general public the intelligent owner/CEO does not go partisan... Gun shops is the exception... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: EBarnacle Date: 27 Jul 12 - 08:42 PM When Oreo [National Biscuit Co] came out with the rainbow Oreo ad, it was a business decision based on what they felt would be supported by the majority of Americans. I have eaten Chick-Fil-A in the past and enjoyed their food. I choose not to eat their food right now because profits from their food sales go to support causes I reject. This is not political correctness, just political action. I also do not eat Domino's Pizza, as I believe that their support of anti feminist values is bad for us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: MarkS Date: 27 Jul 12 - 10:13 PM Personally deciding to avoid a company or products because you do not agree with the views of their management/ownership is quite OK. For a government entity to say they will not allow the enterprise to practice in their area because the management/ownership expressed religious views is quite another matter. What's next? Yellow crosses on the clothes of certain co-religionists? Krystallnacht for Chick-fil-A properties? Don't these government leaders have a clue about just what and who they are echoing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: EBarnacle Date: 27 Jul 12 - 11:06 PM Mark, you are right and you are wrong. If you look around New York City, you will not find a WalMart. The zoning people took a stand and said that their labor practices and the fact that they drove too many small businesses out created an unacceptable environment. Here, they are saying that CFA creates an unacceptable environment for a significant portion of New York's population. The same applies to the other cities. New York has one CFA which, I believe is in Brooklyn. You might even call it freedom of association. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: pdq Date: 27 Jul 12 - 11:13 PM CFA ? Please speak English. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jul 12 - 01:46 AM Chick-fil-A is a hard name to type, like a convoluted password that makes it torture every time you have to log in. So....EBarnacle (also hard to type) changed it to CFA. As biggish corporations go, Chick-Fil-A is one that has always identified itself with conservative Christianity. It's the only fast food restaurant chain I know of, that closes on Sunday. So, it figures that the company's owners would oppose same-sex marriage. As far as I can see, the company has not waged war against gay marriage - the CEO just mentioned in an interview that he is opposed to gay marriage. I support the idea of gay marriage, but boycotting a business because of its owner's opinions, makes me feel a bit squeamish. As a progressive Catholic, I'm feeling more and more hedged in by triumphalist conservatives who think they own my church; and I'm starting to feel repressed. Should my response be to repress conservatives? I don't think so. Chick-fil-A sandwiches have a smallish but very tender chicken fillet, breaded and cooked in peanut oil, served on a hamburger bun with mayonnaise and a pickle. I like them very much, but now Carl's Jr/Hardee has a sandwich with crispy fried chicken, ham, and swiss cheese on a substantial bun, and I like that sandwich a lot better than Chick-fil-A. Carl's Jr. founder, the last Carl Karcher, was one of those ultraconservative Catholics who have been such a pain in the ass to me all my days, and Carls/Hardees ads have a history of being sexually exploitative. So, do I have to give up eating altogether? -Joe, the Junk Food Junkie- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Amos Date: 28 Jul 12 - 02:13 AM You left out that in response to CFA's boss' public anti-gay stance the Muppet people canceled an agreement to have their toy characters in CFA's kiddy meals, ande CFA lied about it publicly saying the toys were pulled for safety reasons. This hoohah accelerated the public noise factor. Public relations is a CEO's prime responsibility, and this one screwed it up. It doesn't matter if it was on gay rights or if he had made a stink about abortion or defending prurient bishops. When you make public statements you can expect public response; what's the big deal? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 28 Jul 12 - 03:14 AM 232 locations in California, Arizona, Nevada and Utah, took in an estimated $420 million in revenues in 2008 The concervative christian family owned In - N - Out Burger prints Biblical truths on thier paper products. family: Burger and cheeseburger wrappers Revelation 3:20—"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Bible reference on Held by the Christian Snyder family In - N -Out urgers prints small Biblical sayings on their paper products....it is highly popular with nonbelievers and evangelials. Beverage cups and replicas wrapper of an In-N-Out John 3:16—"For God so loved the Double-Double world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Milkshake cups Proverbs 3:5—"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding." Double-Double wrapper Nahum 1:7—"The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him." Paper water cups (no longer in use for customers; they are now used by employees only) John 14:6—"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me." License plate keychain 1 Corinthians 13:13—"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." French fry holder Proverbs 24:16—"For though a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity." [Sincerely, Gargoyle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:22 AM Elected officials have no business telling legitimate businesses that to stay out of town. That's neither a "conservative" nor a "liberal" position. Cathy knew there'd be a backlash, and he expressed his views anyway, and in a civil manner. I think he's wrong, but so what? In any event, nobody's going to prison, nobody's being fined, nobody's being investigated, nobody's being arrested, nobody's stores are being shut down. Gay marriage is a political issue. What one wealthy CEO thinks about it shouldn't be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 28 Jul 12 - 09:20 AM Politicians should not presume to speak for their constituents on moral issues. If Mayor Menino is so sure the citizens of Boston find Chick-fil-A's position objectionable, he should allow the company to open as many restaurants as it wishes, and then let Bostonians speak with their pocketbooks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Bobert Date: 28 Jul 12 - 09:48 AM Yeah, I think it is dangerous for political leaders to make zoning decisions based on the politics of the applicant... It sets the stage for reprisals... It would be best if these business owners and CEOs would just keep their mouths shut on stuff that very well influences the success of their businesses... If they want to give money, fine... If they want to knock on doors for a candidate, fine... But when you make a public stand on a polarized issue you have just lost 50% of your customer base... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Greg F. Date: 28 Jul 12 - 11:34 AM Amos, "Christians"[sic] like CFA's boss don't seem to have any problem lying- never have, never will.. Well Pee-Dee-Que, your "PC Fascists" and/or "PC crowd" don't hold a candle to the Fundagelical Christian[sic] Fascists, especially in the degrees to which they interfere with people's reading material, people's businesses & sources of income, peoples bodies, people's children's education, and a host of other things, both public and private, that they shouldn't be sticking their noses into. Where do YOU draw the line? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Stilly River Sage Date: 28 Jul 12 - 12:48 PM Boycotts are an age-old institution in the U.S., based upon collective responses to some practice of the company in question. It doesn't need a lot of debate, and it doesn't need mayors telling a company they can't come to town. If the company staff is smart they'll do some advance research and determine whether they'd be able to make any money in that community. It can become an ingrained practice - I still don't buy Gallo wine or Nestle products, all of these years after what they were doing (fair wages for workers, and sending baby formula to Africa) has long since ceased to happen. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: bobad Date: 01 Aug 12 - 05:54 PM KFC and the Colonel weigh in on the debate: "We love gays and we're open Sundays" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Richard Bridge Date: 01 Aug 12 - 06:06 PM The Mayor should invite the KKK to town? For shame you mudcat fascists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Bobert Date: 01 Aug 12 - 06:17 PM Well, here in Charlotte I passed one of these events and all I could think of was... ...Klan rally in cars... All they needed were some magnetic white hoods for the tops of the cars... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: saulgoldie Date: 01 Aug 12 - 06:37 PM I have an idea for dealing with the CFA homophobia issue. Instead of BOYCOTTING them, we go to CFA outlets in groups, or maybe alone. I don't know which would be more effective. Those of us who are straight wear "Straight but not narrow" rainbow shirts. Those of us who are gay wear "We're Here; we're queer; get used to it" rainbow shirts. We can all hold hands in various combinations. We don't have to order big stuff. But we can "dawdle" with our orders, and make a big scene. We can hand out small flyers with the REAL Biblical descriptions of marriage (that I am sure you have seen floating around). We can have small groups. Or we could even organize flashmobs and invite the media! So you see, by NOT boycotting them, we can make a big statement and really embarrass them! IMHO. Saul |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jack the Sailor Date: 01 Aug 12 - 06:39 PM The CFA's are doing brisk business here today. Friday promises to be more interesting. The LGBT community is going to hold same sex kiss rallies on CFA premises. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,marks Date: 01 Aug 12 - 07:42 PM Better yet lets demonstrate and boycott any oil company which gets raw crude oil from muslim OPEC countries. Those folks dont merely oppose gay marriage, they actively kill citizens found to be gay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Bill D Date: 01 Aug 12 - 08:12 PM Joe Offer makes the point..... these confrontations are about the desire for conservative Christians to proselytize in various ways. We all agree that a person is entitled to believe in the religion of their choice.... or in none at all. But anytime representatives of public institutions or businesses 'suggest' that their personal beliefs SHOULD be general public policy, someone needs to call them on it. I would hate to have the jobs of employees of CFA be threatened because of boycotts,(unless they are required to state their religions views to get that job), but the CEO of CFA should just have said "I don't want to comment on gay rights." There are many, many issues these days being driven by conservative Christians seeking to IMPOSE their value system on everyone. They would rather YOU believe as THEY believe, but failing that, they wish to impose rules and limit freedoms that fit their rationale. No one can force anyone to eat... or NOT eat... at any public food outlet... but a point needs to be made that conservative Christianity is NOT the only recognized belief system in the USA!~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Aug 12 - 09:44 PM Gargoyle brings up the scripture quotes on the "paperware" from In-N-Out Hamburgers. The quote are abbreviated Bible references, stating something like "Prov 3:5" on the underside of a paper cup. Nothing blatant, just printed in an inconspicuous spot where most people wouldn't notice them. I think it's kinda fun. Over the years, I've looked up most of the Bible references. They're mostly the most popular born-again Christian passages, none of that Socialist love-your-neighbor crap that might cause somebody to doubt the beauties of capitalism. Chick-fil-A seems to be a bit more obvious in its Christianity - closing on Sunday is far from subtle - but that's the only religious reference I've seen in a Chick-fil-A store. So, to my mind, neither of these stores is "in your face" with their religious references. Oh, and I think Chick-fil-a gives free drinks to seniors, and their lemonade is really good. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 01 Aug 12 - 09:49 PM > the CEO of CFA should just have said "I don't want to comment on gay rights." Yeah, but then he wouldn't be the CEO of CFA: he'd be another guy entirely. He said what he thought. I don't believe we can insist that he should have said something that somebody else with a different sense of CEO decorum might have said otherwise. Cathy *is* an evangelical and evangelicals evangelize. At least he spoke in a civilized tone of voice. Speaking his mind is a long way from imposing his beliefs, even though he might wish to. Anyway, I'm pretty sure he'd respond to that idea by saying, "They're not my *beliefs.* They're God's *facts.*" I've heard other people say that about similar issues. Agree or disagree or roll your eyes, but if somebody thinks they're just speaking the truth, it's pointless to attack them personally. And it would be equally pointless to try to reason them out of it. Besides, Cathy's remarks may hurt his own business in the long run. (Think of a CEO speaking out for segregation in 1958.) They're certainly not going to change anybody's mind about gay marriage one way or the other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,999 Date: 02 Aug 12 - 05:25 AM It's obviously a front pushing lesbienism. Have a look at the name: Chick-fil-A. Sheesh, some people are slow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Becca72 Date: 02 Aug 12 - 09:24 AM He has the right to his opinions, just as I have the right to mine. While we don't have any CFA restaurants in my area (that I'm aware of) it would be my choice not to go there, as I don't agree with his opinion. This is exactly the reason why I refuse to take membership at Curves. I don't agree with him, either I don't deny anyone the chance to make money, but I DO deny them the chance to get any of mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: SINSULL Date: 02 Aug 12 - 09:33 AM Same for Sally Hanson. I deny no one their right to an opinion. I reserve the right not to support their businesses should I disagree. Or to support their businesses as in the case of the Salvation Army when their deeds take precedence over their opinions. SINS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jack the Sailor Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:00 AM "At least he spoke in a civilized tone of voice." Not in the interview I heard. He was railing against the "arrogance" of others who would dare challenge his version of "God's plan." I think that it is pretty arrogant to pretend to speak for God. Especially when the log in your own eye appears to be corporate wealth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 02 Aug 12 - 10:46 AM > the log in your own eye appears to be corporate wealth. I am not making this up. The widely voiced opinion in certain circles is that great wealth accumulated by the devout is a visible, earthly symbol of God's grace. Like the rich man in the bible, the non-Christian rich can't get into Heaven; but the Christian rich can and should, unless they seriously drop the ball somehow. One Christian argument against Cathy would be that he lacks charity toward homosexuals and takes a narrow view of God based on a static, restricted view of Christianity. (In other words, he's kind of a Pharisee.) A counterargument would be that he recognizes that gay marriage is a prideful affront to God, inviting divine judgment on America. (In other words, he's kind of a prophet.) At least that's how people that I know would argue. But this thread's about politics, not theology. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,999 Date: 02 Aug 12 - 01:56 PM The thing is this: if Cathy has the right to use his money to promulgate sayings from the bible or the 'religious world', whatever that may be, then consumers of Cathy's products also have the right to vote with their bucks. That simple. It is not a question of whether he is correct in doing so; neither is it a question of someone else not doing so. It is a question of money. He spends his as he sees fit, and so do the rest of us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jack the Sailor Date: 02 Aug 12 - 03:49 PM True 999 But the debate is whether the Mayors of Chicago and Boston have the right to limit the growth of his franchises in their cities because he is to paraphrase the mayors, not in accord with their cities' values. The more I see of this the more it looks like a publicity stunts to get people to buy more unhealthy food. By the way, in my opinion their sandwiches are a tiny sliver of chicken between 4 thick layers of greasy carbs. I Get a sugar rush just remembering the one that I did have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,999 Date: 02 Aug 12 - 04:05 PM True back atcha, Jack. I think for once you and I agree on something. Neither of us would need a mayor to tell us what we should think. That ain't why we vote for mayors. Run the damned village, town or city and we'll decide all on our very own where we choose to eat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jack the Sailor Date: 02 Aug 12 - 04:24 PM Oh, I'm not so sure I agree with all that. The elected mayors have a right to say what they want and do what they can withing the bounds of local law. I'm not saying that they are wise to do so. And that comes with the assumption that there will be an election before too long where the public can express their feelings on the mayor's expressed opinions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,999 Date: 02 Aug 12 - 04:33 PM Once again, I'm with you. For example, "Your Worship, I will defend to your death your right to say any stupid ill-considered statement that pops into your mind if it will garner votes for you. Until then, run the fucking town and let those of us who agree with you do so in silence." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Aug 12 - 04:33 PM Well, 999, it's important to keep stories straight, and then to determine how to respond. It was a hamburger place that prints scripture citations (not the text, just stuff like "Jn 3:16" in inconspicuous places). The only fact stated about Chick-fil-a is that the CEO said in an interview that he does not support gay marriage. So far, that's all we have on the guy, that he made a simple statement in an interview - we don't know what other employees and company owners from Chick-fil-a think. Richard Chang's article in today's Sacramento Bee terms Cathy's statement as an "attack on gay marriage." Chang says "the deeply religious Cathy" as saying this in a radio interview: "I think we are inviting God's judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at him and say, 'We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage.'" Note that this was a radio interview, so apparently the guy was answering a question and stating his opinion - not really making an unprovoked attack or waging a campaign. He was just saying what he thinks. And yes, I suppose we certainly have the "right" not to patronize people who don't think the way we do. We can surround ourselves with people who think just like we do, and view all others as "the enemy" and demonize them cultivate an adversarial relationship with them. After all, that sort of polarization is The Way of the World nowadays. It's what has brought the United States Government to a virtual standstill - because people insist that it's their God-given/god-given right to have their own way and not give in to the evil of tolerance and compromise. So, there's been a nationwide boycott of Chick-fil-A, accompanied by the usual shrill rhetoric. And, of course, there's been the usual counter-boycott to promote "family values." Has all this won any support for gay marriage? Nope, not a bit. In fact, gay marriage may have lost a bit of support because of reaction by fair-minded people to the shrill overkill of the Chick-fil-A boycott. A boycott can be a very effective tool, if used judiciously. It's most effective when it's used in response to a gross injustice, not just the expression of a distasteful opinion. Martin Luther King used boycotts brilliantly. Cesar Chavez overused boycotts and failed to keep his message clear. Many of his boycotts failed because people didn't know if they were supposed to boycott celery or lettuce or raisins this week, since the campaign kept constantly changing. We need to have a two-pronged approach to win acceptance for gay marriage:
-Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST Date: 02 Aug 12 - 04:57 PM Joe. I have never eaten at a Chick-fil-A nor is it high on my list of priorities. In fact, I see nothing wrong with slogans, biblical comments or satanic verses on coffee cups. (I always enjoyed the Tim Horton's joke that made the rounds. Timmies did a 'Roll up the Rim to Win' campaign. Some wag on the internet showed a rolled-up rim that said, "I peed in your cup." Cathy has every right to speak as he chooses, the usual admonitions being considered. His personal views are his--and he has the right to speak of them. I too disagree with boycotts of this nature, and because of this type of thing I would likely eat at a Chick-fil-A given the chance, because I dislike being told what I think, how I feel or what I can or cannot do. By anyone. I think your "We need to have a two-pronged approach to win acceptance for gay marriage: A legislative and judicial approach, winning approval of gay marriage in state legislatures and convincing the courts to outlaw restrictive legislation. A persuasive campaign, working to convince people that tolerating gay marriage is the right and just thing to do, even if people don't personally like the idea." is a good idea. How you have perceived me as pro or con on this thread escapes me, as does why you have chosen to address something I've said. But, in the parlance, that's cool. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 02 Aug 12 - 05:17 PM Has anybody ever listed specific ways in which gay marriage allegedly screws up other marriages? I haven't noticed a problem, but maybe it's just me. If you don't like gay marriage, don't get gay-married. (But by the same token, a church that objects to gay marriage on doctrinal grounds shouldn't be compelled by law to marry gay couples. In fact, separation of church and state guarantees it won't be. If some gay couples demand a church wedding, that's a private issue between them and their church.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jack the Sailor Date: 02 Aug 12 - 05:29 PM "I think we are inviting God's judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at him and say, 'We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage.'" A little more than a disagreement with gay marriage IMHO. If a chicken vendor wants to put fire and brimstone in his batter. He should not be surprised if some folks do not like the flavor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,999 Date: 02 Aug 12 - 05:30 PM That guest post addressed mostly to Joe was mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: pdq Date: 02 Aug 12 - 05:43 PM Just for the record... The founder and CEO of Chick-fil-A is Samuel Truett Cathy, who is 91 years old. Daniel Truet Cathy is his son. President and COO, the son directs daily operations of the company. He is 59. He made the comments in a Christian radio interview. His father is essentially retired. The company has strict policies about any type of descrimination and is a "equal opportunity employer" of Blacks, Hispanics, women and gays. Franchise managers are trained to solve any problems fairly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jack the Sailor Date: 02 Aug 12 - 05:51 PM pdq, Are you stating this as a matter of fact? Have you personally visited each franchise and questioned the manager's training? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Aug 12 - 06:34 PM 999, I was responding to your post of 02 Aug 12 - 01:56 PM. You seemed to be confusing the In-N-Out hamburger scripture citations, with the statement of the Cathy the Chicken Guy. You said people have the "have the right to vote with their bucks," and I agree - but I think that a less coercive approach may be more effective. Lighter asks: Has anybody ever listed specific ways in which gay marriage allegedly screws up other marriages? Well, no, lighter, but I've heard it said so often that gay marriage is a threat to my heterosexual marriage, so it must be true......right??? I've really tried to make an honest attempt to find some sense in that "threat to marriage" allegation, because it is said so often by people who claim to have authority in my Catholic Church; but I just can't make heads nor tails of it. The best and most polite response I can make is, "Huh????" I think the Catholic bishops use that and their War Against Nuns to cover up their child molestation scandal. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jeri Date: 02 Aug 12 - 07:14 PM My state's (NH) ONE C-f-A restauraunt: In New Hampshire, a Chick-fil-A manager might be causing his chain headaches. Anthony Picolia and the Nashua Chick-fil-A, the only one in the state, are supporting the New Hampshire Pride Fest on Aug. 11. In a statement, Picolia said "I would challenge people to come have a conversation with me before they make assumptions or boycott my restaurant."Like most things, this is more complicated that it seems. If people boycott, will they hurt the individual restaurant owners or the chain? Does Cathy's opinion have any real-life effects? If he discriminates against employees or patrons, yes. If he's just shooting off his mount, no. Lots of people have opinions I don't agree with or actually find vile. One can't run people out of town because they have unpopular opinions. ...so I'm not convinced either way. Jerks who don't or can't act on their jerkishness aren't evil, they're just jerks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jack the Sailor Date: 02 Aug 12 - 08:01 PM As it turns out they are getting multi million dollars of free publicity. Its almost as if they planned it all. So far this is the best comment I have seen/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jeri Date: 02 Aug 12 - 08:19 PM Agree, Jack. I've never been in one of their restaurants and haven't heard of them in ages until this happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Desert Dancer Date: 02 Aug 12 - 08:40 PM From what I've read about the company in operating on its Christian values, "sinfulness" is a disqualifier for those who might like to acquire a Chik-fil-a franchise. No evidence it's come into play, but that would seem possible grounds to disqualify homosexuals as franchise holders. http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2007/0723/080.html http://nexus.som.yale.edu/chick-fil-a/ (Yale case study) In addition to the NH franchisee, the only one in Chicago has spoken out in support of LGBT rights. Some gay employees have been having a hard time of it lately: Huff Post. Corporate monies (through the WinShape Foundation - their charitable arm) have gone to organizations that actively work against the legalization of same-sex marriage, and some of those organizations also are seen to have an agenda hateful toward homosexuals. Detailed here: http://equalitymatters.org/factcheck/201207020001 Here's an even-handed statement from a Christian perspective: Rachel Held Evans: Some words for Christians on both sides of the Chick-fil-A war (written before the C-F-A Appreciation Day). She has a sad post today: When you feel out of step with your religious community.... I think the Boston & Chicago mayors are making a big mistake, and I note that there are prominent statements from activists for marriage equality making statements to that effect (Andrew Sullivan, and Steve Salbu, in an NY Times op-ed). ~ Becky in Tucson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 02 Aug 12 - 08:58 PM Great links, Becky. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Aug 12 - 09:14 PM I dunno. All I can say is that I'm getting really hungry looking at all the pictures of chicken sandwiches that I've come across in the course of this discussion.... Becky's links were some of the most tempting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Stu Date: 03 Aug 12 - 04:37 AM 30 years old, and still as relevant as ever: Are you a gay christian? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: beeliner Date: 04 Aug 12 - 01:27 AM Many years ago, I lived in Western PA and there was a Chick-Fil-A in a mall in Greensburg, PA - perhaps it's still there - and they had the best dam' cole slaw I have ever tasted. Pure ambrosia! My only complaint was that they allowed smoking. Wearing one's religion on one's sleeve is rarely advantageous in business; as my paapy told me when I left home, "Son, never do business with a man who keeps a Bible on his desk." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST Date: 04 Aug 12 - 01:37 PM Take, for a moment, a different tack. How would folks that approve of the 3 mayors' actions feel about a city in, say, Mississippi refusing outfits like Ikea or KFC permits because they have publically appealed to gays? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jeri Date: 04 Aug 12 - 02:00 PM Unfortunately for your whole point there, anti-gay is discrimination and pro-gay is not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 04 Aug 12 - 02:12 PM To repeat, after two days of zero responses: Gay marriages threaten traditional marriages by doing what precisely? If somebody would explain that, there might be a basis for discussion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Aug 12 - 12:09 PM "3 mayors' actions feel about a city in, say, Mississippi refusing outfits like Ikea or KFC permits because they have publically appealed to gays? " I hope to hell that you don't think that Cathy was appealing to heterosexuals with his talk about arrogance and such. What is arrogant is sticking your "Christian" beliefs into someone else's bedroom. If the mayor of Jackson Mississippi wanted to ban a fast food company Because the President said people like Cathy should have their reproductive rights abridged until it was assured that they wouldn't pass their hatred onto their children. I would agree and you would have a point you bravely nameless guest. But if the issue is as you said it is, then the conflict is over. Chick fil A is now publicly appealing to gays. No doubt, in part at least, thanks to the statements of the mayors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: dick greenhaus Date: 05 Aug 12 - 12:33 PM Jeri- While there are laws against some discriminatory actions, I'm not aware of any laws against having a personal opinion that's discriminatory. And I've heard nothing about the company in question acxtually discriminating against gays. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: akenaton Date: 05 Aug 12 - 01:21 PM Not all discrimination is negative. We discriminate on sex between close relatives, even if they agree to be sterilised, while the arguably much more dangerous "sex between men" is promoted as "safe and healthy" At last, the health figures associated with the practice of homosexuality are to be brought into the debate and we will begin to deal with the the reality of the issue....not an emotional response on "equality" Latest figures are from Uniads "79% of all new hiv infections come from 2% of the population(MSM)" "20% of homosexuals in major US cities carry the virus" Compulsory registration and testing is reqd if the increase in infection is to be halted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Aug 12 - 01:30 PM A definition for anyone who might need to read it. Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual based on his or her membership - or perceived membership - in a certain group or category. It involves the group's initial reaction or interaction, influencing the individual's actual behavior towards the group or the group leader, restricting members of one group from opportunities that are available to a group, leading to the exclusion of the individual or entities based on logical or irrational decisionmaking.[1] Discriminatory laws such as redlining exist in many countries. In some places, controversial attempts such as racial quotas have been used to redress negative effects of discrimination -- but have sometimes been called reverse discrimination themselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Aug 12 - 01:33 PM chicken-offsets-ted-frank At last! a positive response! ;-p |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jeri Date: 05 Aug 12 - 02:06 PM Dick, I understand your point, but as the company's owner, there may be a greater import to his words. It IS a fine line, but if it can be reasonably assumed that he was speaking for the business, I believe it can also be reasonably assumed to be stating his intention to discriminate or condone discrimination. Say, for instance, the manager of Burger King or... Denny's... publicly said he didn't approve of people of people of different races eating together. Is it a reasonable assumption of a business owner's intent to discriminate, or is it one guy voicing an opinion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 05 Aug 12 - 02:28 PM Maybe more gay marriage would slow down the spread of HIV/AIDS. People who get married at least intend to be faithful to their partner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: John P Date: 05 Aug 12 - 07:56 PM Cathy can say whatever he wants. I wouldn't eat at Chick-fill-a for two reasons: one is that the corporation gives lots of money to anti-civil rights campaigns. Two is the dumb-ass spelling of their name. The opinion of the owner is only important if it points to what the company does in the political arena. I'm divided about mayors saying they don't want the restaurants in town. I don't think they should get to do anything about it other than opine. On the other hand, if there was a restaurant chain that had an owner who said that black folks were an inferior race, and if the corporation was giving lots of money to the KKK, I wouldn't want them in my city. But I don't think it wouldn't be Constitutional to deny them a permit for that reason. On the other hand, having public repercussions for people who bring hate speech (and money) into our political discourse is maybe not such a bad idea. Sort of like, "You have the right to say anything you like, but your monetary support of anti-civil rights groups means that you lose the right to do business in this town." Another solution, of course, would be for the news media to stop repeating hate speech. Talk about playing into the hands of the bigots! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: dick greenhaus Date: 05 Aug 12 - 11:06 PM Jeri- Legally (thank God) it doesn't matter what a person thinks ( or says, xcept for the crying "Fire" in a crowded theater bit). Until Chick-Fil-a tries to act on their presidents' beliefs, the mayors have no business doing anything at sll about it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jack the Sailor Date: 05 Aug 12 - 11:19 PM The mayors have as much right to speak as Cathy and when they did speak Chick fil A back peddled from Cathy's stance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Aug 12 - 12:34 AM I'm with Lighter - I can't figure out how in the world it could be, that a homosexual marriage is a thread to my heterosexual marriage. All I can figure is that these people figure that if homosexuals can't marry homosexuals, they'll marry heterosexuals instead and somehow get "cured." I've known one homosexual who tried that, and his wife thought he was the perfect husband until she discovered he had hundreds of male lovers. The results were disastrous, and came close to destroying the two children of that marriage. My religious faith tells me that homosexuals should not marry heterosexuals. I don't have any reason to think that religious authorities who oppose gay marriage, have any sort of legitimate enlightenment in this matter. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Chick-fil-A flap From: Jeri Date: 06 Aug 12 - 06:50 AM Have the mayors actually done anything, or are they just stating their opinions? And at what point does speech = acting? Verbal bullying would count as both. I don't think the CfA stuff has reached that point, and I've read where gay employees have been hearing as much garbage from anti-anti-gays as from anti-gays, mainly due (I believe) to the employees not wearing a sign identifying them is gay, and to the fact that people tend to take available opportunities to shoot of their mouths. |
