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Anyone else have this problem?-singing flat
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Subject: Anyone else have this problem? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:04 AM I recently found this site: which has MIDIS for old songs from operettas. The above link is for one for "Twilight In Barakeesh" in The Rose Of Algeria. I just recorded myself singing the song on Audacity (figured it out from looking at the score for the operetta) and I noticed that I get really flat on some of the notes. My high notes on the song are awful. Since my parents can't afford voice lessons right now, I'm trying to teach myself a few songs. Has anyone else had the problem of going flat when trying to learn a song on their own? (Anyone tried to teach themselves songs?) |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:08 AM On another note: I can now sing in tune to "Ah! Sweet Mystery Of Life" (by singing at a lower pitch than Jeanette MacDonald). |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:31 AM Has anyone else had the problem of going flat when trying to learn a song on their own? Has anyone not had this problem? - is a better question. You can try to learn from books on vocal technique, and/or, as our friend L. suggests, join a choir. Do not force very high or very low notes, start with songs of limited range. Good luck! |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:34 AM @Grishka: Thanks! |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem? From: GUEST,Stan Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:49 AM If you can afford it buy, or maybe borrow, an automatic, chromatic guitar tuner and practice singing into that. A good practice routine is to play a note on an instrument, see where the tuner goes, sing the same note and see if the tuner agrees. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem? From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:49 AM Or use a metronome.., |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem? From: JohnInKansas Date: 28 Jul 12 - 09:05 AM Easier to demonstrate face-to-face than to describe; but my old choir director used to tell anyone a little flat to "put a smile in your throat." Most people tend to slightly raise the pitch when they smile over what they get with a "flacid face." It isn't exactly the smile that does it, but a reflex that raises the soft palate (the flabby part of the roof of your mouth) and changes the resonance of the vocal tract slightly upward. Once you get the feel of it, you can "raise the roof" without the outward smile. There is a tendency to pitch your voice by "muscle memory" in which you adjust the vocal chords by the memory of how much muscle it takes to get a given note, instead of by listening to what you're singing, and the tendency is to drift slightly flat when you rely too much on that method. If you can learn to keep the soft palate "up" the tendency to go flat is reduced. It doesn't avoid the need to listen to what you're singing, but adds a little lift. It's most effective if you can learn to sing with a "full throat" that lets the sound echo clear down into your belly; but for "pop songs" that can tend to make one "go operatic" which may not be the tonality you want. For operetta music there's probably little danger of overdoing it though. Some people find it easier to sing in tune if they have an People seriously trying to learn vocal arts spend a lot of time singing scales and "open chord" exercises, often with a piano or other instrument to check their pitch, but the practice does little good unless you're very conscious of being accurately pitched on all the notes, by comparison to an accurate instrument. John |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 28 Jul 12 - 10:45 AM Grishka's suggestions are all good. Do you read music, Morwen? Have you seen the music for 'Twilight in Barakeesh' as well as heard it? Because I have encouraging news for you - that MIDI that you linked is way too high. A gifted coloratura might be able to hit those high notes, but they are not doable by ordinary mortals. The highest note is a G# above the staff. In my church hymnals, the highest note ever asked for is the Eb below that. I think what you have there is music written for an orchestra. Instruments have bigger ranges than people. Yes, somebody may have set words to it and given it to a trained singer, but it's still not really a vocal piece by nature. So don't be discouraged that it's hard. I have MIDI software would you like me to change that MIDI so it's lower? I can make it play within the normal range for a soprano. And if it doesn't work, we can do it again. But you have to let me know, so I can send it to Joe for posting. Another thing about the song - was it a duet? Maybe one person took the low lines and another took the high lines. That would make it quite hard for a single person to sing. By the way, the song is a riot. I love it! Thanks for finding it and posting the link. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem? From: JohnInKansas Date: 28 Jul 12 - 11:17 AM Good point on the range, Leenia; but do note that the hymnals are generally scored for the congregation, who are not expected to be trained singers. Choral (churchy) music for the choir is quite frequently scored for trained singers who are expected to have much fuller ranges. (Try Handel's "Messiah" sometime when you have a cold - guaranteed to hurt ya, regardless of which part you sing.) Music of the operetta kind are generally a little less demanding than operatic, but the solos are generally expected to be assigned to those with a bit more range than the backup singers. An operetta piece might well be set outside the range of most of us, and a key change would be in order for solo use. John |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem? From: Mo the caller Date: 28 Jul 12 - 11:19 AM I used to notice that I don't go flat, I go sharp. Playing piano and singing for playgroup, if I turned round to encourage them, by the time I turned back to the piano IT had gone flat. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem? From: Leadfingers Date: 28 Jul 12 - 12:03 PM Unless you are singing with a professional orchestra , the key a song is published in is immaterial ! Sing in what ever key is comfortable for YOUR Voice . If you are singing with other people , get a key tha is best suited for all the singers . |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem? From: Bert Date: 28 Jul 12 - 12:55 PM I usually have to practice every song dozens of times before I get it right. A metronome would kill me 'cos I like to vary the tempo for effect. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 28 Jul 12 - 02:56 PM Now that I downloaded the MIDI file, I saw that it goes up to B (natural) above the staff. Definitely in the professional league. You have a soprano voice, so you should not make the mistake to sing too much in the very low register. But transposing is absolutely legitimate, unless you are publicly performing as a sopranist (that's what Leadfingers seems to have in mind; BTW: even public performers are sometimes caught cheating; a professional orchestra must be able to transpose on the spot if the diva chooses to have a cold). A metronome and a tuning device are two helpful tools for two distinct problems. Both are available as free software (though I cannot tell you authoritatively which software is good - ask the 'Cat). The same applies to MIDI sequencers that can transpose and slow down a MIDI file. I use a software that costs some 30 AUS$, to vary the tempo at liberty, thus addressing Bert's problem (- particularly handy for accompanying a choir). |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: GUEST,Stan Date: 28 Jul 12 - 04:24 PM I'd assumed that the metronome comment was intended as a joke. It's got no connection with tuning at all. I've got some hearing damage and what I hear through the bones of my head and what I hear through earphones are not the same. Practicing with a tuner helped me listen better but I sing most in tune when I use earphones. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: Big Al Whittle Date: 28 Jul 12 - 05:03 PM perfect an air of nonchalance, and say - I was singing the harmony hoping you would sing the melody..... |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 28 Jul 12 - 06:28 PM Stan, I'd rather be caught missing a joke than discussing in a cloud of misunderstandings, if I can help it. Actually I am interested myself in good free or cheap software for all those purposes:
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: GUEST,Stan Date: 28 Jul 12 - 06:50 PM I've seen a really good smart phone app for a tuner. Accurate, very easy to read and, I was told, not expensive. Unfortunately I'm still using my pre camera pay as you rarely go steam driven phone so I can't offer a name or any details. This stuff is out there and I'm sure someone can come up with specifics. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:14 PM Leeneia, I love it if you could change the MIDi. Could you, please. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:31 PM Grishka: I'm curious-do you mean soprano in the sense of choir soprano? Because AFAIK the songs I find easiest to sing in operetta are the mezzo roles; Clementina and Adah. As Tattie Bogle said and I've found, my notes below the staff are easier than the ones above. (According to StageAgent.com, Clementina is a mezzo) And the best thing about my voice is the middle range. Herbert seems to have loved stratospheric sopranos, didn't he? |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:44 PM Although, if anyone's watched the video of me doing Neath The Southern Moon, they'd have noticed that the G is my lowest note. I can sometimes hit the F below the staff, but it's not that good. Maybe with a little more training. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:55 PM Addition to the remarks on the voice type of Clementina's role: I suppose it could be sing by a soprano though. Leeneia: Yeah, I have. Here it is:http://archive.org/stream/roseofalgeria00herb#page/84/mode/2up/search/barakeesh |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 28 Jul 12 - 08:58 PM *sung*. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 28 Jul 12 - 09:22 PM Although(I think this forum should have an edit button!) I suppose the G isn't very low. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: Don Firth Date: 28 Jul 12 - 10:11 PM Sing scales and parts of scales. Play the scale or part thereof on a fixed pitch instrument (piano is ideal) and then try to match the notes with your voice. V-e-r-y slowly at first. A good book to work with is Singing Professionally, by Arabella Hong-Young, revised edition, 2003. Not too heavy, good advice, good practice exercises. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 28 Jul 12 - 10:14 PM Don: Thanks! |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 28 Jul 12 - 10:30 PM I'm sending Joe an e-mail with the new MIDI of the song attached. I've made it lower and slower. I noticed that Morwen's original is marked at speed 120. This is the default MIDI that appears on a piece when no one tells the computer any different, and I found that I couldn't even go la-la-la to the melody at speed 120. So I experimented and made it slower. I don't know if I did it right, but Morwen, you can let me know if it is too fast or too slow. Too slow is better, because you can always learn it slow and then speed it up yourself once you've learned it. I looked at the sheet music you linked and didn't see a tempo number. Let me explain that when I said above that the piece is a riot, that I was referring to a the section near the middle where the bass goes rum-pah-pah rum-pah-pah and one can almost see the camels swinging across the sand dunes. It is very enjoyable. Other sections are more lyrical, of course. Let's hope Joe gets my message. He could be out of town or something. Click to play (joeweb) |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 28 Jul 12 - 11:15 PM @Leeneia: I will. And I'll download it once it's posted. It might help me improve my high notes. Even on Neath The Southern Moon, my high notes are bad. BTW, looking at my NTSM sheet music, I just noticed that the lowest note is a G below the staff, which I can sing easily. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 29 Jul 12 - 04:41 AM Soprano is anything above contralto. Mezzo is short for mezzo soprano, a subspecies. Most soprano singers can also sing down to the G below the staff, but should do so only very carefully, to avoid "isolating their chest register". -- Morwen, you wrote on another thread that you have access to the Sibelius software, so you can do the transposing and slowing-down yourself. -- I have just opened a new thread about "Little Software Helpers?", which may attract many of our computer freaks. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:08 AM I may have to get my dad's help; I'm not very familiar with it. It doesn't sound right. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:12 AM And also, thanks for the explanation, Grishka. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: andrew e Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:46 AM Finale Notepad 2012 will import midis. You can change the speed,, change the key, change the sounds and save as another midi if you want. Some midis display better than others. It's free. http://www.finalemusic.com/NotePad/FreeDownload.aspx |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 29 Jul 12 - 06:44 AM Andrew, Morwen has access to and experience with Sibelius, so Finale Notepad will not be of any use for her. You are welcome to contribute to my thread "Little Software Helpers?" - however, Finale Notepad is a "crippled" version of full Finale, designed to get users hooked to Finale, so it cannot be called "little". Morwen, is your dad's help so hard to ask for (compared with Leeneia plus Joe Offer who has to host the resulting MIDI files)? Sibelius help is very easy to obtain on the net as well. What doesn't sound right? |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:19 AM Oh it's just the pitches etc. And you can't hear anything. I don't mean that one, I meant the NTSM one. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 29 Jul 12 - 07:36 AM And my dad doesn't know all that much about music, but he does know a lot about computers. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 29 Jul 12 - 08:10 AM I think this is more of a music issue than computer issue. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 29 Jul 12 - 09:28 AM Yes, that music had a number of issues. These things were wrong with the original MIDI, which was probably just designed for listening. too high too fast (merely used default speed) goofy triplets (a common problem in MIDI's of this type) tempo varied a lot IMHO, accompaniment was harsh and cold in tone (default sound) had unnecessary staves I enjoy working with music, so I enjoyed tinkering with it. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 29 Jul 12 - 10:40 AM Morwen, repairing goofy MIDI files is quite a different problem, for which you will doubtless appreciate Leeneia's help. If you learn how to transpose and slow down a MIDI file yourself, you will find that useful in the future. For example, to approach the final key and tempo step by step. Of course, your may have different ideas about the final parameters from of the author of the MIDI file. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-going flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 29 Jul 12 - 05:53 PM thanks, Grishka. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-singing flat From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Jul 12 - 05:12 AM Here's the MIDI from leeneia. Sorry for the delay. I had to set up a new FTP site. Click to play (joeweb) |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-singing flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 30 Jul 12 - 06:17 AM Thanks Joe. Am trying to download Leeneia's MIDI to my computer. Anyone have tips? |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-singing flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 30 Jul 12 - 06:29 AM Leeneia: I noticed that your MIDI doesn't include the second verse. Is there a reason for that? |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-singing flat From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 30 Jul 12 - 06:36 AM For downloading? Right-click on Joe's link, select "Download target as ..." or "Save target as ..." or similar, depending on your browser. On my thread about little software helpers, our freaks have done what I expected. The VanBasco MIDI player recommended there by "Bill D" seems to be exactly what you need. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-singing flat From: The Sandman Date: 30 Jul 12 - 06:47 AM get an instrument, sing scales whilst playing the instrument, then work out your vocal range, and sing in suitable keys |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-singing flat From: RichM Date: 30 Jul 12 - 09:39 AM Have you considered checking your hearing with an audiologist. You may find you have reduced hearing in certain frequencies. Just a thought...for years my wife told me I had a hearing problem. So I finally went to an audiologist. His diagnosis? Reasonably normal hearing, probably I had the syndrome known as "Selective Husband Hearing" |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-singing flat From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 30 Jul 12 - 10:03 AM Hello, Morwen. I only saved the first verse because the second seemed to be a repeat, only with a much more complicated accompaniment requiring more memory. To practice the second verse, just play it again. Do you have a Windows computer? Grishka's directions for downloading will work, and then Windows Media Player ought to play it. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-singing flat From: GUEST,leenai Date: 30 Jul 12 - 10:04 AM Joe, why did you have to set up a new FTP site? Did it have anything to do with the specific file? |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-singing flat From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 31 Jul 12 - 01:34 AM RichM: Actually I have high-frequency hearing loss because I've got cerebral palsy. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-singing flat From: GUEST,Jemma G Date: 31 Jul 12 - 07:48 AM This was suggested by Jess Arrowsmith in one of her festival workshops for interval training. Sing a scale major in numbers: up: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ( i.e.in the key of C: 1=C 2=D 3=E 4=F 5=G 6=A 7=B 8=C) and down again: 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 then: 1 2 1, 1 2 1 1 2 3 2 1 1 3 1 1 3 1 1 2 3 2 1 1 3 1 1 3 1 1 2 3 4 3 2 1 1 4 1 1 4 1 1 2 3 4 3 2 1 1 4 1 1 4 1 1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 etc - all the way up to 8. This gives you a scale to ease your way up to a note, then removes the scale to make you do the different interval jumps, get both you ear and you muscles used to what needs to happen to get there. Then play around with other keys and other types of scales. And other patterns, try 1 2 1 3 1 4 1 5 1 6 1 7 1 8. Or arpeggio training: the root chord: 1 3 5 8 5 3 1, 1 3 5, 3 5, 3 5, 8 5 3 1. then others as you wish - this is fairly easy once you know what it sounds like: 1 3 5 8 8 5 3 1, 2 4 6 8 8 6 4 2, 1 3 5 8 8 5 3 1, 2- 2- , 1 3 5 8 8 5 3 1, 2 4 6 8 8 6 4 2, 1 3 5 8 8 5 3 1, 2- 2- , Which can be further developed into the full 12 bar blues chord pattern: 1 1 3 3 5 5 6 5, 1 1 3 3 5 5 6 5, 1 1 3 3 5 5 6 5, 1 1 3 3 5 5 6 5 4 4 6 6 8 8 9 8, 4 4 6 6 8 8 9 8, 1 1 3 3 5 5 6 5, 1 1 3 3 5 5 6 5 5 5 7 7 9 9 10 9, 4 4 6 6 8 8 9 8, 1 1 3 3 5 5 6 5, - 1 1 1 Boring, but can be done in a car, and don't worry about singing the right number name (can be a bit of a tongue twister!), they are just there to aid you develop your own exercise patterns as required. |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-singing flat From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 31 Jul 12 - 10:11 AM Hello, Morwen. Have you tried singing to the new MIDI? Is the pitch okay? Is the speed okay? Is it fun? |
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Subject: RE: Anyone else have this problem?-singing flat From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 31 Jul 12 - 03:01 PM Jemma, it can be necessary to practice scales in a car (though the seats tend to inhibit good breathing), if your housemates are not pleased to hear them. But most voice trainers will agree that practicing while driving may seriously damage your vocal cords and the rest of your body. |
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