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Is it Really Folk Music???
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 04:21 AM And I've been feeding you. Food for thought. Don't be a pantywaist and call me a troll. Call me Mister Krinkle. (:-( ))= |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 05:50 AM And for some real Rock and Roll go watch some vids of Joe Maphis and Larry Collins playing together on The Town Hall Party. (:-( O)= |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 06:46 AM I thought we came here together out of a love for old music. And to have mature discussion. Not to shout down and insult anyone who has a different opinion or perspective. I'm not a Folkie. I'm a folk. And I resent anyone who poses as a folk. It's insulting. (:-( 0)= |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 24 Aug 12 - 07:57 AM These are all valid points, and it pays, I think, to be aware of them whatever our personal feelings might be. Folk is a broad church, but its foundations aren't Traditional Song as song as such, rather the foundations are built on Traditional Song, or at least a notion of it. A crucial difference or unseemly semantics? Well, as Richard & Don Firth have pointed out a Folk Song Singer is a different from a Singer of Folk Songs, though the nature & significance of that difference will differ from Folkie to Folkie and the church is broad enough to accomodate that. In terms of General Folk Faith, I think we can safely say there are no Folk Song Singers extant ('...you're all post-revival now, Sunny Jim!') and just because no latter-day land-lubbing shanty singer has e'er merrily tossed with his shipmates upon the high rolling briney, it doesn't mean they can't enjoy a merry blow-boys-blow even though high-but-seldom-dry in their local Designated Folk Context. Personal Passion is the key here. I have an especial fondness for poaching & fox hunting songs, even though my Hunt Sabbing days are long past, and I haven't poached since 1999 when I went out with my borrowed air-rifle in the early dawn shooting rabbits on Brancepeth Castle Golf Course (the three I shot were well myxed so I gave up). My favourite ever Folk Song is about the hunting an (innocent) hare; I especially like to sing it to myself in Norfolk when I go out hunting hares of a crisp spring dawn with my camera (Then up she springs: 30th March 2012. Even when I sing it with my wife (as a shimmering psychedelic drone, hem hem) in my heart I'm out there midst the the freshly torn furrows of Tatterford; this is now Folk works for me personally, like. You don't have to have lived through the horrors of the Trimdon Grange Mining Disaster of February 1882 to be moved to tears by even the most inexperienced floor singer singing Tommy Armstrong's Trimdon Grange Explosion. Spleen said earlier about connecting with the human spirit. Can any of us Singers of Folk Songs sing any old song and remain unmoved by it? Surely the whole act of learning a song is a ritual act of pure communion in which we assimilate our very souls with something wondrously ancient in an act that is, primarily, about personal catharthis. This is a very different thing from thinking that by singing these songs were carrying on The Tradition. I don't believe we are - we're just part of a small elite of Singers & Enthusiasts for whom the old songs live in our hearts regardless. It really is a matter of love & keen enthusiasm, and at times, I grant, that enthusiasm maybe in dire need of a little curbing (guilty as charged) but mostly I'd say things is just fine. I recently added the controversial (see separate thread) Fakenham Fair to my repertoir after a wander a round Morrisons in Fakenham in a possession of the Genius Locii, and I'll sing James Armstrong's The Kielder Hunt in a similar spirit. The bottom line here is that people sing this stuff and they love singing it. Sure, we can rant all we like but as soon as we're in the Folk Zone all the theory falls away and you're right there, happy as Larry the Sand Boy, joyfully communing with the wonder of the thing, be it on stage, in a recording studio, in your local singaround or session or out in the fields. There's no hierachy of pure joy I'm sure, and it pays to remember that a) this why we do it and b) this is what Folk Music (really) is. |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Aug 12 - 08:17 AM My vintage [well.. early 80s] Korg Poly 6 is as much a 'Folk' instrument as any mega expensive elite hand crafted modern squeeze box or bag pipes.. .. and now due to failing components it plays quite erratically, squarking and honking and crackling without any regard for the notes actually played on the keyboard.. That's when it's not too temperamental to even switch on and emit any sound at all........... So I'd argue that makes it even 'folkier' than any affluent folkies's brand new Hurdy Gurdy.... |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Aug 12 - 08:22 AM "...you're all post-revival now, Sunny Jim!" If that was aimed at me - I have never said otehrwise - it has been my point from day one and I've taken a great deal of flak for suggesting it. Your stance, on the other had has varied from, 'the tradition is a figment of the imagination of Victorian gentleman antiquarians' to 'we are all traditional singers'. If I have mistaken your argument, I apologise, but please put it down to verbose wrappings that your posts usually arrive in. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,John Holmes of Edinburgh Date: 24 Aug 12 - 08:46 AM Mr Krinkle, You seem so keen on authenticity. May I ask what your real name is? Best, John Holmes |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 09:06 AM No. You may not. And what difference does it make? And what makes you think it's not my real name? You should all keep in mind how foolish those Blues Barbeques look. And what many of those performers think of you. Affable on stage. Hating you off stage. A bunch of drunk yuppies and frat boys. Remember the scene in Animal House when the frat boys went to the colored part of town to see Otis Day? Stick to the music of your ethnicity, economic group and time. (:-( ))= |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: theleveller Date: 24 Aug 12 - 09:21 AM Incidentally Mr Krinkle-Kut (may I call you Chips?) what sort of music do you play? Aplogies if you've told us somewhere along the line - I proably missed it while I was wetting myself with laughter. |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 24 Aug 12 - 09:30 AM If that was aimed at me Oops! No it wasn't, but thanks for pointing it out. Your stance, on the other had has varied from, 'the tradition is a figment of the imagination of Victorian gentleman antiquarians' to 'we are all traditional singers'. At my most magnanimous I am overcome by the feeling that The Folk Revival is this all-inclusive warm loving mothering Great Spirit of Belonging that nurtures each and every one of her children with equal & unconditional adoration. In such a state of mind I might allow that the very act of singing a Traditional Song is a sort of mediumistic trance possession which can result in some very fine ectoplasm indeed. At the very least it is Holy Communion in which I can well believe in the literal truth of Transubstantiation. Nursing the hangover the following morning I might be less optimistic. It is then I line up my complete collection of Busts of Famous Folk Song Collectors that came free with packets of Sugar Puffs back in 1971 and shoot them with plastic bullets fired from my Multi Pistol 09 (the poorman's Johnny Seven I know; I also know my place). Mostly though-but, you'll find me haunting the hinterlands in between, kicking over the fields in search of the odd clay-pipe bowl or piece of ancient bottle-glass that provides a more tangible sort of archaeology than even the disembodied voice of Joseph Taylor singing Brigg Fair on Percy Grainger's wax cylinder. I suppose it's always been That Voice which has called me folkwards. But that it exists at all is due to the complexities of a hierachical social apartheid which we Brits are supposed to accept with passive deferential gratitude as our birthright. As I said earlier, my enthusiams are fed by such dialectics. I thrive on the contradictions, and even, at times, might contradict myself as I catch something in a different light. There are no absolutes here, just a merry stroll along the long vanished lanes where, as an 11-year-old boy, at some point in Easter 1973, my heart was opened to the notion that Traditional Folk Song was something very different from what you might hear on (the still utterly compelling) Hearken to the Witches Rune. I think I've been dealing with that ever since... |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 09:31 AM Simple old country tunes. Old Rock and Roll tunes. Stuff I grew up with. |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: theleveller Date: 24 Aug 12 - 09:37 AM So not folk then. |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 09:46 AM Not UK folk. American Folk. UK and European Folk is completely alien to me. Maybe I mistook this place for a Country Blues place. I have no interest in UK or European Folk. (:-( ))= |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,John Holmes Date: 24 Aug 12 - 09:47 AM Seems to me that if you can't even be authentic with your name you're batting on a rather sticky wicket expecting authenticity from others. A shame, you seem to be just another actor, pretending to be someone else. |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: theleveller Date: 24 Aug 12 - 09:56 AM Ah! |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Aug 12 - 10:11 AM "At my most magnanimous I am overcome......" The revival, which you are part and parcel of, at its best, is made up of people who recognise the existance of a superb body of songs passed down to us and are prepared to acknowledge and appreciate the contribution made by those who gave it to them/us. By your constant debunking of the work of others with your clever/clever flights of verbosity and your failure to offer an alternative, you constantly call into question folk song and the people who gave it to us. Pontificating dilettante keeps springing to mind, but I'm not sure that you're even that committed. Do you fill all your posts with verbose fluff because you have nothing but your wrecking ball as a response to argument? Just thought I'd ask. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 10:12 AM Accused of talking sense on Mudcat....I've never been so insulted..! Actually fishermen and farmer do still write a lot of songs about their jobs - I wasn't aware of them - living in Nottingham - but down here in Doset - the buggers are all at it. Not my cup of tea. |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 10:19 AM Now we can talk about at what point in time after release a commercial tune becomes a folk tune. I think Johnny B. Goode is a folk tune at this point. Rock Around the Clock. I think its soon after the culture makes it a hit. Madonna's Like a Virgin is a folk tune? I think so. (:-( ))= |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: theleveller Date: 24 Aug 12 - 10:19 AM "I've never been so insulted..!" Really? That does surprise me! :0 (sorry) |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 10:22 AM The first dirty joke my sister ever told me concerned a newly married bride, who on her wedding night pulled her Mother's choice of night attire for her from the suitcase, and said in some alarm.....URRRRGH!ALL PINK AND CRINKLY! To which her new husband said, Oh you!You promised! no peeping! I was about five at the time and it scarred me for life. perhaps Henry is recalling a similar trauma. |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 10:27 AM My stage name, sweetcheeks. Henry Krinkle is my stage name. (:-( P)= |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 10:58 AM For starting this discussion I am: A complete prick Windup merchant Red neck Ignoramus Troll Dumb animal Poser O wise one Who is: Stupid Cowardly Mach posturing Who can go fuck himself twice With a sick ego Did I miss anything? (:-( D)= Thank you for your thoughtful posts |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 10:59 AM Macho posturing |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:23 AM The revival, which you are part and parcel of, at its best, is made up of people who recognise the existance of a superb body of songs passed down to us and are prepared to acknowledge and appreciate the contribution made by those who gave it to them/us. I disagree, Jim. The Revival is made up of people who have made a lot assumptions about the nature of folk song and held their truths to be self-evident thereafter. At its core is a consensus of romantic aestheticism defined by a more savage prescription. It always operates at several very significant removes from its primary sources, and even propagates the notions of hierarchy of authenticity & pure-bloodedness that persist unto this day. You see this as a wrecking ball - hardly so - it's endemic to the nature of the revival. I've read about it everywhere from The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs (the old one; haven't got round to reading the new one yet) to Bob Pegg's Folk, Harker's Fakesong and Boyes The Imagined Village none of which you could call harsh critiques. It's a simple fact of life that Folk is the invention & concern of an social elite - an Intelligentsia - who are very different from the non-elite - a Proletariat - who made and sang the songs in the first place. But, get this, I appreciate the contribution of the collectors but I'm also under no illusions as to the contradictions inherent in elite members of one (superior) social class collecting the work of another (inferior) social class and subjecting that work to the sort of taxonomy and taxidermy that not only typifies the revival, but is anathema to both the nature of the songs and the people who made and sang them. No wrecking ball here, Jim - just point of fact: The Revival is a Bourgeois Conceit; the entire concept of Folk likewise. It is born of class condescension and a legacy of feudal deference which it preserves with greater success that the material which it has persistently misrepresented, re-invented and trivialised since Cecil Sharp first made his parlour piano arrangement of The Seeds of Love some 109 years ago (almost to the day) the same day he first heard John England singing it. I'm as much a product of that as anyone - a part of the revival as you say. There is no alternative, simply because that's the way it is and, in any case, Traditional Folk Song is an extinct species. On the collected evidence, the best we can do is to speculate as to its traditional ecology, but that's all it's going to be - speculation driven by faith and fundamentalism. My theory? I've said it as many times. Folk Song is the creation of working class masters of their craft shaped by necessity, fashion and usage. The Tradition is a quantifiable musicological idiom, but otherwise it is no different from any other musical idiom. Music is music; language is language; all culture is flux, diversity, and adaptation consequent on the individual & collective creative genius of humanity. And that's the same thing you'll find from Balinese Gamelan to Free Improvisation to Hip-Hop to Death Metal and beyond. Music is Music, and Folk Music (so-called) is no different. I find it ironic that the 1954 Definition says much the same thing really, as does the Horse Definition. Music is Human; Music is the consequence of Traditional Idioms unique to specific individuals, cultures & communities; things change as they get passed on. No music is any different, and yet all musics are unique. Same could be said of people. We are the music makers - we are the dreamers of dreams. |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:30 AM So much for the stereotype of the gentle, peaceful folkie. (:-( ))= |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,John Holmes Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:35 AM "Henry Krinkle", it wasn't the starting of this discussion which resulted in the name calling, it was your unpleasant personality. If a bunch of random strangers all take against you so vehemently, perhaps you don't have the most likeable character? And I am aware of the double meaning here of the word "character". |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,bankley Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:38 AM "It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to" W.C Fields "My music is best understood by children and animals" Igor Stravinsky |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:38 AM Now we can talk about at what point in time after release a commercial tune becomes a folk tune. I think Johnny B. Goode is a folk tune at this point. Rock Around the Clock. Yeah, right, we buy that is a legitimate contribution to a folk music discussion. [NOT] Pushing buttons, making absurd statements, posting (as of now) 368 posts in just over three weeks of membership, and using the moniker of a killer in the movie Taxi Driver http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5vZw3_MWtY all don't bode well for your participation here. One only has to contemplate motive. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Stan Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:41 AM Stay by Henry Krinkle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieSaPxKXgEU Relevant? |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:48 AM Not me. i don't do monkey junk. (:-( ))= |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:55 AM And those people needed killing. (:-( P)= |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:58 AM HK: I think Johnny B. Goode is a folk tune at this point. SRS: Yeah, right, we buy that is a legitimate contribution to a folk music discussion. [NOT] 1954 Defifinition: The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character. Blandiver Interpretation: Well, I doubt any subsequent performance of Johnny B. Goode has been entirely similar to the original. I was in a band once & we'd regularly jam on it for upwards of half an hour & it came out differently each time and yet, unmistakably, it was Johnny B. Goode. Lots of Conclusion: Does that make it Folk? Of course not, it's Rock 'n' Roll. |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: MartinRyan Date: 24 Aug 12 - 11:59 AM Yawn... |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 12:05 PM But Rock and Roll is the music of the folk. Or was 50 years ago. (:-( ))= |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: TheSnail Date: 24 Aug 12 - 12:11 PM Jim Carroll Quite simple. treat Walter Pardon..... as if they were normal human beings with valid opinions Which is exactly what was done - not to the extent I would have wanted, as I have said elsewhere, but the definition was based on information received from such people. But still a sharp dividing line between the gentry and the peasantry, the academics and the subjects of their study. Much as I hate to admit to agreeing with anything that Sweeney van Driver has said (or even having read it), but "But, get this, I appreciate the contribution of the collectors but I'm also under no illusions as to the contradictions inherent in elite members of one (superior) social class collecting the work of another (inferior) social class" makes a valid point. |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 12:20 PM I don't have anything on youtube. But maybe soon. I finally caught up with technology a little. I have a smart phone. I bet my phone is smarter than yours. (:-( ))= |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver Date: 24 Aug 12 - 12:29 PM Much as I hate to admit to agreeing with anything that Sweeney van Driver has said (or even having read it) Welcome to the loving all inclusive & friendly fraternity o' Folk! What's the problem this time, TS? Last time I recall it was to do with some hysterical outburst over WAV's entirely justified vernacular folk-usage of 'could of'. What is it with Folkies who love the myriad diversities of vernacular popular usage and yet harbour such maliciously pompous pedantry in their hearts (or wherever else they keep it) based on some ill-founded notion of grammatical correctness? Still, I'm glad we might at least agree on something, though I'm less keen about you plagiarising my words to use as ammo in your ongoing petty war with Jim. Happy days are here again! |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Aug 12 - 12:31 PM Sorry Bryan - don't get your point If the collectors got it wrong - point out where they did and correct them. Their work was flawed but it gave us a wealth of songs and they came up with a workable definition. So far you have made no effort either to says where they got it wrong ot what they should have said A little like Sweeney's constantly tearing down something that somebody put up without putting something up yourself Feel free!!! If Sharp or Broadwood or Grainger got it right, does it really matter where they came from? So far you've only said why they got it wrong Piss or get off the pot - as the man said Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 12:42 PM You know, if I annoy you, that's your problem. Why would you give me that much control over you (:-( ))= ? |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Aug 12 - 01:12 PM We won't, Mr. Allison. We'll eventually delete you. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Date: 24 Aug 12 - 01:32 PM (:-( D)= I get an interesting, controversial thread going. And you get all huffy. (:-( P)= ........."controversial" - your spin on the word is different than how the rest of us understand it. Consider this your first public warning that trolling is not tolerated. Richard Allison is easily linked with Henry Krinkle via Google. There's no mystery here. --mudelf |
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Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Max Date: 24 Aug 12 - 05:48 PM This thread is BS. Each and every one of Henry's points are invalidated by his costume of a fake name. Sad really. We've been doing this almost 17 years, we've seen this hypocrazy ad nauseum. |
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