Ribbons in folksong

Subject: Ribbons in folksong
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 01:33 PM

Hello all,

I'm curious to know what significance the numerous mentions of ribbons have in folk song.

It's evident from many songs that ribbons had far more significance than they do for us today. Ribbons are valued as much as gold rings in many songs.

Additionally, the colour of ribbons appears to have some significance. Blue ribbons, to tell us that the boy is married in 'The trees they do grow high' for example.

I can give you masses of examples if you are interested, but I hope the above will be enough to inform those in the know of my query.

Any help appreciated.

Many thanks

Ed

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 02:08 PM

Sometimes the ribbons have the same kind of significance as the ribbons people wear on their coat lapels today, a way of telling the world about some kind of committment, personal or political or whatever.
As in this song by Peader Kearney, who wrote the Irish National Anthem.
I had a true love if ever a girl had one,
I had a true love a brave lad was he
One fine Easter Monday, with his gallant comrades
he started away for to set Ireland free
All around my hat I wear athree-coloured ribbon
All around my hat until death comes to me
And if anybody's asking me why do I wear it
It's all for my true love I never more will see
And there are four more verses, but I haven't got them.

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: wildlone
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 02:47 PM

Adding to the above ribbons and colours had the same significance in days when few could read, as badges and that kind of thing has now.
As you have said Ed a lot of songs use ribbons and colours they used to mean a lot once.
A good example is that in the English Civil War an entire baggage train was captured because the Officer leading the troopers towards what he thought were his own side was wearing the same coloured hat as one of the Officers on the other side was known to wear, when the mistake was noticed it was to late.
I hope it makes sense wl

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 02:49 PM

McGrath,

I fully understand that the meanings of ribbons may in many cases be simply a symbol of allegance in the way that people wear 'AIDS awareness' ribbons on their lapels etc. The wearing of your teams' football shirt could be placed in the same category.

What interests me is the fact that (as mentioned in my first message)'ribbons' seemed to have been considered to be intrinsically valuable: 'I gave her ribbons and golden rings'

I'm also interested in what different colours may have signified in the eighteenth century.

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: wildlone
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 03:36 PM

Ed I have had a look in my costume books for the 18th cent
It seems that "ribbons" were used a lot,But they were often made with gold and silver wire on silk beaded with pearls or precious stones and could be yards long when used on garments.
In this light, yes ribbons would be worth getting.
I hope this may shed more light on the matter wl.

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 03:48 PM

wildalone,

Thanks for that. Can you give me a reference for you 'costume' book or any suggestions as to where I might find out about 'ribbons' from the past?

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Magpie
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 03:58 PM

Hi there.

I know that in Norway, ribbons were also highly valued, because you had to buy them. Most other articles of clothing were made at home, but the gaily coloured ribbons were imported, and therefore expensive. This made them a nice gift for a girl friend, or for a sailor boy's mother.

Magpie

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: wildlone
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 04:14 PM

Ed one book is - Costume By Margot Lister
pub by Barrie and Jenkins in pb 1977
ISBN 0 214 20473 1.
The other is - A Cut of Mens Clothes By Norah Waugh
Faber & Faber, hb, 1994.
ISBN 0 571 05714 4
I find the local public libary is quite good, They will usualy get books in from other libarys if you ask or you can try a costume museum.
I dont know where you are but I find the V&A Helpful.
Best of luck on your quest I will have a look down here. wl.

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 04:23 PM

Magpie

Thanks for that information.

Can you point me in the direction of any sources to confirm this?

Sorry if I'm being a pain but 'Magpie says' doesn't wash in academic circles...

Ed

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: wildlone
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 05:14 PM

Right this is taken from the Verney Papers
For 12 Knotts of narrow Ribbon to ye Cammions of the Breeches £1:18s:00
For A payre of orangery Gloves £:01s:06d
For A Scarlett gold and silver fringe to trim them £5:00:00
this was in 1680.
You could always try a search for costume on the web if you go to www.dogpile .com you can do uite an extensive search

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 06:07 PM

Ribbons were also important "trade" items wiht the Native Americans this side of the pond. Even today, certain tribes sew ribbons along the seams of their shirts which they wear in ceremonial dances; beautiful use.

I believe ribbons were very popular for use in women's hair, as well, and may have been as significant as fans, in a courting sense. I'll see what I can find for you.

You might also email the experts at Sturbridge Village in Sturbridge, Massachusetts, although their time would've been early 1800's,it is a working farm/village with kilns, coopers, glass blowers, weavers, etc.

Possibly, someone at Mystic Seaport in Mystic, Connecticut might have info, too. I know it is on the 'Net and I am sure the other is, too.

Neat thread; will try to find documentation.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Barbara
Date: 24 Oct 99 - 07:38 PM

If you put "ribbon*" in the search box up at the top of thepage, you will get 83 songs with a mention of them, as well as information about those songs.
I was remembering "Please to See the King" about the wren, and it has a verse that goes:
Our king is well dressed
In silks of the best;
In ribbons so rare,
No king can compare

Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 02:00 PM

One practical point of course is that ribbons were cheap and portable - a travelling pedlar could carry a wide variety around with him, and you could buy them for a loved one or yourself when you hadn't much to buy them with. And even cheap ribbons can be very durable, and can make a fine show.
People haven't changed that much really.

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Bert
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 02:21 PM

I think Magpie has got it right. In the past, ordinary people were extremely poor and any kind of 'bought' decoration on their clothing was out of the question.

If someone, somehow managed to saved some money and spend it on ribbons at the fair it would have been a rare occasion, and the ribbons would have made a treasured gift.

It's hard to imagine this when we have such a high standard of living nowadays.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 02:26 PM

One of the activities reported by Laura Ingalls Wilder in her "Little House" series was of herself and her sister playing with ribbons, weaving them in various combinations, braiding them, sorting them by color or by type, etc.

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 02:58 PM

And what of gibbons? "Scarlet gibbons for her hair"....

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Magpie
Date: 25 Oct 99 - 05:58 PM

Well Ed, most books on Norwegian costume will mention this. But then, they'd all be in Norwegian.

I've done a bit of reading about old Norwegian costumes. The tradition of bringing ribbons home from over the sea, or buying them at pretty stiff prices is really old, were talking early Medieval times and even before that. Most people wore rough woollen garments that were felted, or waulked, to make them more durable. It was only in the cities or large towns (Oslo, Bergen and Trondheim, or Nidaros as it was called then) that people would wear garments of fine wool, linen, or even silk, and only those that could afford it. In some places they would grow stinging nettles, whose fibres were woven into fabric even softer and more durable than linen. This country wasn't exactly densely populated (and still isn't) and to travel to town to buy finery like this, was not something you did on an afternoon off. (From Lillehammer to Nidaros would be about a month's travel). To spice up their Sunday finery, people would sew on silken ribbons and pieces of velvet. The more, the better. It was a way to show off.

Norwegian costumes also sport silk scarves or shawls, that were not there originally, but as trade developed, these little luxuries became more and more common, and are today an integrated part of traditional Norwegian costume.

(Jayzus, I DO go on a bit, don't I?)

Magpie

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 06:20 PM

Everyone,

Many thanks for your replies to this thread. (Magpie - go on as much as you like if what you are saying is intelligent and relevant)

What many of you have said seems true. The intrinsic value of a ribbon is immaterial. Today, we may well give red roses as a symbol of undying love etc.

The colour of ribbons may also be misleading.

Looking through numerous song books (and the DT database) various colours occur in differing situations. It would however appear that tying blue ribbons around the waist (or knee, or head) of a male indicated marital status.

I'd be interseted to know more regarding this custom if anyone has information Ed

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Corwyn
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 06:37 PM

Something that is seems to be overlooked is that the ribbons were dear in part (especially in olden times) beacuse OF their color. Dyes were very expensive, and for the most part only the rich and noble could afford bright colors. The lower classes made due with clothes of less intensity, and when they faded, had them re-dyed to a darker color. You could only do this for so long until you ended up with a drab grey or brown. So the ribbon, a small piece of cloth that most people could afford was a prized commodity beacuse of its bright color. Later on, when the silk trade noramlized, the ribbons became silk for the same reason. It was small enough to be affordable to the masses. Both women and men used ribbon, as a hair piece, or as trim to garments. Don't get me wrong, they were still (for the time) expensive, but a ribbon couls still be the occasional purcahse for most.

Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 06:50 PM

Corwyn,

Many thanks for your message.

Can you give me any books / jourals / peridical articles by which I could start an investigation into this?

Ed

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Corwyn
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 06:53 PM

I'm sure I can, let me get back to you on that. After I get off work, I'll see what I can do.

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Ed Pellow
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 07:09 PM

Please do, I'd very much appreciate it

Many thanks in advance

Ed

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: Pete Peterson
Date: 26 Oct 99 - 10:17 PM

Counterexample on blue ribbons signifying marriage from the Pace-Egging song of the Watersons: Oh the first to come in was Lord Nelson you see
With a bunch of blue ribbons tied round by his knee
ANd a star on his breast that like silver does shine
And he hopes you'll remember it's pace-egging time

Lord Nelson's marital doings, as C.S. Forester remarks, were "the laughingstock of the fleet"; he abandoned his wife of about 15 years to live in a menage a trois with Emma Hamilton and her elderly husband till Sir William died; Nelson never went back to his wife and lived with Lady H. whenever he was on shore (which wasn't much) till he was killed 194 years ago last Thursday. Anyway-- even though there's that verse in The trees they do go high about tying blue ribbons, don't think it necessarily had that meaning.

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: RobinC
Date: 27 Oct 99 - 02:48 AM

I've heard that ribbon were the "jewels of the poor". That would make sense in that they were ornamental, small, and relatively expensive.

Robin

Subject: RE: Ribbons in folksong
From: paddymac
Date: 27 Oct 99 - 06:24 AM

As noted by katlaughing, ribbons were important to many native american peoples after the european onslaught. In many Muskogean communities, the men wore "ribbon shirts" on ceremonial occasions. Originally, the ribbons had some commemorative significance for the individual and/or his clan, but in more recent times they have become essentially decorative. The women have what is known as "The Ribbon Dance" in which they wear numbers of ribbons. The commemorative element is still very strong among the women, and the length, color and number of ribbons have special meaning for them, individually and collectively.