A Little Free Advise for Independent CD

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 05:01 AM

musicmick's advice is I am sure well-meant, friendly and supportive, and worth listening to. Having said that, I've cast my mind back to the last few albums I have actually listened to with enjoyment. Listening is something I tend to do in the kitchen when on my own, cooking or washing up. And the stuff I have put on in the last week was mostly recorded in New Oreleans and other parts of the USA in the 1920's, and also field recordings of British Isles musicians mostly made in the 50's. The equipment, and the production values, would score about 1 on a scale of 1-100 by modern standards. But the records suit me fine, I listen to performers, not product.
In fairness to muswicmick's advice though, the stuff I listen to sells in hundreds. The records that sell in millions have very high production values!

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 06:55 AM

That's a perfectly good point, Greg. All I would say, though, is that with the recordings you're talking about someone other than the artist would have been taking care of the actual recording process, whether with a hand-held mic into a portable tape machine or some other sort of equipment.

Alan Lomax didn't turn up with a tape recorder and expect the people he was recording to operate it themselves. He did the technical stuff and let them pay attention to the performance.

Plus one of the reasons why those old recordings have stood the test of time is that the person making the recording made a decision to record that artist (and then publish the results) rather than the artist deciding to make their own CD in the shed. These guys knew what they were doing.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: musicmick
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 09:21 AM

For whatever reasons a recording is made (commercial, historical, academic, personal), it is submitted for review in hopes of increasing sales. For all the reverence we give critics like Agee, Shaw and Kerr, independant recording projects need encouragement, not disection. A favorable review may not assure success but, like chicken soup, it couldn't hurt.
Of course, field recordings are judged by a laxer standard of sound fidelity and performence. Any folk music writer with an ounce of awareness treats John Lomax differently from Moe Asch.
The travails of the independant artist/producer are travailish enough without being denied an avenue of public praise and everyone enjoys recognition. If I can help people attain that recognition, hooray for me and hooray for you, too.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 10:22 AM

Betting the ranch, eh? As long as he's not buying the farm then I guess things is cool.

I know hundreds of musicians for whom recording is an integral part of the process of making music. This has been the case for the past 35 years in the realms of electronica & experimental musics, where the Concrète Ethos is central to the Caper. In folk things is a little different, where performance remains the ideal & recordings are secondary to that. We seldom of hear of the reclusive folk singer who is only heard via his / her Soundcloud page & limited edition CD-R releases. Folk Concrète? We live in hope.

As a reviewer myself my parameters of what is acceptable in terms of sound & product are set pretty wide. The only thing that irks me is when Folkies are eager to sell you their CD which is, in fact, a CD-R. Don't get me wrong, I love CD-Rs & they've been an essential part of the music scene this past 15 years or so, but they're not CDs. It was better in the old days when the CD-R had that lovely Toilet Duck Blue colour to them.

Yeah things is confusing, but things is just the way they are. Once again I fear the tendancy here is towards over prescription when it comes to what ought to be as oppose to what is. What is is always better, I find. Whatever works for you is always best. Grab your Zoom H2s and go find yourselves a nice resonant space - be it country church or city underpass. Delight in the Joy of Sound and the Sound of Joy.

Whatever, it's always the EARS that hear it. Maybe it's time certain reviewers got the cotton buds out and faced basic realities?

Here's Kevin Conneff singing The Green Fields of America in Frank Zappa's concrete echo chamber. The recording was a favourite of Zappa's and was played at his funeral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD89a9xkMGk

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: treewind
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 02:12 PM

"It was better in the old days when the CD-R had that lovely Toilet Duck Blue colour to them"
The only reliably good CDRs are made by Taiyo Yuden and are still that colour.

"Here's Kevin Conneff singing The Green Fields of America in Frank Zappa's concrete echo chamber"

There's nothing like a good acoustic reverberant space for making a nice recording like that, but it has to be a big space. If all you have is a typical house room, the sound's boxy - all you can do is cut the natural reverb to a minimum and add it back (if needed) artificially, accepting that it's a compromise.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GloriaJ
Date: 26 Sep 12 - 06:30 PM

It's a thought-provoking thread - if a little arrogant,which of course gets people's backs up.But it got me thinking about this, as I'm planning a new album. I've recorded an album with the famous Bill Leader,and lots of other people, and also done some self-recorded projects.Usually I have no interest whatsoever in my past recordings, but for the sake of this argument, I listened and compared professionally-made recordings with ones I'd done myself.
It seems to me that the difference lies in the quality of vocal recording and reverbs mainly.Professional tube vocal mikes,like Neumanns,cost serious money, as do good reverb units.Home recordists cant usually justify forking out for them - why would you? Rode and so on are nearly as good, and are a tenth of the price.
Another factor, maybe the main one,is experience.It takes AGES to get your head round music production software, as well as engineering techniques.People do apprenticeships in this kind of thing - watching and learning over months and years.
Finally, in my experience - most reviewers of cds havent a clue about all this stuff.They dont know the first thing about recording, let alone playing an instrument, or singing.They merely relate what they hear to preconceived ideas about what is good or bad.I did an album of traditional music with an electronic basis some years ago - sent it out deliberately without letting on how it had been done.Not one reviewer (though I had good reviews) ventured to say how the sound had been created.The reason being - they hadnt the foggiest idea.Anyway, as we all know - reviews are irrelevant for the most part - they dont affect your sales or success very much at all.Probably a really bad one would be more helpful than most of the " this is nice, buy it" kind of thing.I love a really bad review - it makes me want to check the artist out.
I agree with some here who say that the material,the music itself,is what counts.I'm sure Oasis have had the best of every recording technique lavished on them - compressed to buggery so the sound pins you to the wall, but its still mindless pap. Give me Joseph Taylor, or Robert Johnson over them any day, for all the lack of studio trickery.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 04:28 AM

"It seems to me that the difference lies in the quality of vocal recording and reverbs mainly.Professional tube vocal mikes,like Neumanns,cost serious money, as do good reverb units."

This is the thing though - in the 2-3 years I've more or less wasted trying to make home recordings I've found that the quality/price of microphones is immaterial if the room you're recording in isn't properly treated.

In fact, this was writ large the last time I went, ironically enough, into a recording studio. We used two Neumann mics. But it still sounded boxy and awful, and I can only put this down to the fact that the studio had only recently expanded its live room (but hadn't got their room treatment right). Also, despite it being a big room, the engineer set me up in a corner - something that struck me as fundamentally wrong but which I didn't question at the time.

I really think that difference between expensive microphones and cheap ones is massively overstated. Going from a budget condenser mic to a Neumann or Schoeps is the icing on the cake, but going from an average-sized living room to a decent acoustic space is the cake itself in my experience thus far.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,Phil B
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 10:01 AM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=99ZoTiJwQsM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5xAd_uMpHM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_0q_0FayMw
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sue_c9ZcwXA

For anyone at all interested, these are the first few days of the new Show of Hands album in progress. There's a section on some of the mics here. They are a mixture of the studios and mine.
The environment depicted is not soundproof or treated in any way. It was chosen for its ambience and being a nice place to work. We did a week there. We analysed and sampled the natural acoustic to reproduce it when we moved on to the actual studio subsequently. It is very much in eveidence on many tracks on the album.
The 4th clip is in my attic studio which is only semi soundproof and not treated in any way.

All of this stuff is far too subjective to get into any argument. As far as I'm concerned, there are no rules I'm afraid. Its horses for courses. I just must make a couple of observations though.

£1000 will buy anyone a bundle of software/computer/mic and audio interface which is more than good enough to make a studio quality album. I mentored a young artist two years ago who did that. Her new album is excellent by any yardstick. Self recorded and self produced.

As far as I'm concerned, being able to have lovely expensive mics is great but I couldn't afford them for the first 25 years of my career. I used Paul Whites (Sound on Sound) ancient and well tried technique of an SM58 with a Tandy PZM behind it. It still works and sometimes I do it to re-prove it to myself.

Three very physically similar large diaphram mics in my personal posession are

Neiman TL102. Was about £900 but has now come down radically in price. Can be found for as little as £500 now.

A&T 4040. £350 ish

SE-X1. Can be found for £160/70.

At the moment, I'm loving the SE mic and am reaching for it for guitars and mandolines before either of the other two. It doesn't have the bottom end response of the other two but is utterly transparent and crystal clear at the top end. Good value methinks. Ce'st la Vie!!

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: musicmick
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 10:28 AM

GloriaJ's message was cogent but missed the mark on two points.
While some brave souls may buy a panned product, they are not the norm and how do you imagine an artist feels, receiving a bashing for a project he put his heart and cash into?
Also, a review may have little effect on saales in the artist's home market, where most sales are at performances, but reviews are very important for breaking int new markets. I have introduced, to the Philadelphia audience, dozens of wonderful musicians who had been, previously, unknown here. That's what I'm here for. That's why people send me their CDs.
You know that, even if an artist is well known in his own land, he may be "who's that?" here. That was the case with the great Cyril Tawney, whose work I have been championing for years and, as a result, enjoyed a nice sale in my neck of the woods. (I am not taking credit for his success. I was privelaged to be the bearer of his tidings.)
Still, maybe GloriaJ shouldn't send me a CD for review. I never pan or carp so my reviews would bore her to tears.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: treewind
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 12:40 PM

"Professional tube vocal mikes,like Neumanns,cost serious money, as do good reverb units.Home recordists cant usually justify forking out for them. Rode and so on are nearly as good, and are a tenth of the price."

I think Mike's point, though, is that the availability of cheap equipment has made it possible for people who don't have a clue (nor good ears, nor any knowledge of the subject) to get into recording, with the result that the market is flooded with badly made recordings.
Give a beginner a Stradivarius violin and what do you think they will sound like?

"Another factor, maybe the main one,is experience"
Yup. And knowledge, however acquired, and good ears.

"the quality/price of microphones is immaterial if the room you're recording in isn't properly treated."

This is the biggest secret of the recording industry. Those with a commercial interest are trying to sell you flashy new microphones, amplifiers, preamps, processing plugins, 192kHz 24 bit A/D converters etc. because they look exciting. Room treatment is terribly unglamorous but it's what actually makes the most difference.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 12:51 PM

Room treatment? Like THIS you mean? Bare brick & egg cartons...

When in doubt, the closer the mic the better.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 01:09 PM

looks to me like Ralf & Florian (is it?) have got bass traps in the bottom right-hand corner of that room, under and to the right of the speaker. And possibly something under the speaker in the left hand corner. Looks like it probably has a decent-height ceiling too.

The person I know of that gets the most impressively "professional" sounding acoustic recordings is Ben Walker, who plays with Josienne Clarke. His "studio" is his bedroom, he has OK mics, but nothing extravagant. Yet it sounds terrific.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GloriaJ
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 05:00 PM

"Still, maybe GloriaJ shouldn't send me a CD for review. I never pan or carp so my reviews would bore her to tears. "

   Well,obviously the one exception to enjoying a real stinker of a review is if it was of my own work!I'm quite happy to send you a cd - and you can be as bland as you like.
As Phil says, it's all very subjective.And can you ever separate the content from the process? I, like most people, focus on the content.Sometimes a really bad recording would deny me enjoying that - but even then,its not usually to do with mikes and rooms etc.I get lots of cds given to me - some for review,some in exchange.I dont hear many that are spoilt by bad recording - its the singing and musicianship - and most important of all, the material itself, that stops me playing them more than once.
When I did my first recordings,in proper studios, I found it hard to play well because they were always so acoustically dead.Engineers prefer this, because they can add reverb but cant take it away.Maybe times have changed.I have also recorded in church spaces etc where it is very reverberant - but perhaps the bedroom is the best place really.The drawback,as I said before, is that software reverbs arent always very good, and I think reverb is difficult to use well, if you dont have the experience.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 05:15 PM

Doesn't matter how good a recording is..

it can still be f@cked up by an insensitive mastering engineer
going mental with aural exciters & ice pick treble frequencies....

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 05:26 PM

looks to me like Ralf & Florian (is it?)

Oh yes. Kling Klang studio. Read about it HERE.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 27 Sep 12 - 10:05 PM

Attaboy, Musicmick. Thanks for trying to help. Some may take your advice for what it's worth, and others won't. But you tried to help, and that's fine in my book.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: musicmick
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 12:22 AM

Mr. Kennedy is too kind. Well, maybe not, I am one hell of a swell guy. He is, in fact, the kind of performer I had in mind. He is well known in the Irish-American community of Philadelphia but, to the "folkies" his name might as well have been John Doe. I was privilaged to tout his recordings to my readers. I had no need to flack his personal appearences as I never saw a show of his that wasn't SRO. (He is, surely, one of the most entertaining acts in our business).

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 02:27 AM

Seamus, we all gotta call you Mr Kennedy now? Like, this is really gonna confuse me, man.

Trust things are well.

I ditto Mr Kennedy's remark to musicmick.

Ciao