A Little Free Advise for Independent CD

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 04:28 AM

Mick, I would say "thanks" for the advice - it was obviously sincerely written as a useful guide from the heart, by someone who has been in the business a long time, and I recognise that.

I would only add, from my own perspective of someone who's been in several recording studios over the past 45 years, and also done my own serious home recording for around 12 years, that the experience has been very mixed (no pun intended!). I've had some lousy experiences with the finished product in some professional and quite expensive studios - and, unfortunately, I was 'just' one of the musicians in the band so didn't have much say in the process other than playing when told to. Other experiences were better.

All recording I do now I have complete control over - for better or for worse - and, yes, I do test the work in progress on other musicians for their opinions. Some of the things I've recorded I look back on and think, "Mmm... could've done better there... and there." Others I'm proud of and think the sound is just what I wanted.

I think there's a difference in attitude these days, one where manufactured 'product', with all the production values and processes you talk about is perhaps not now what some musicians want. They might prefer directness, simplicity, their own expression and, of course, cheapness! Given the comparatively low sale numbers that even the most respectable folk performers can achieve these days, the outlay for professional production can mean that the outlay is not recovered. Given that environment, you can't blame people on a limited budget doing their own thing.

Anyway, I'll put my money where my mouth is and ask you to listen to the double-tracked guitar duet (tenor and 6-string) on my website's front page. I don't think it's too bad (and the CD has sold quite well), but you'll obviously bring a different ear to it!

The New Century Hornpipe

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 24 Sep 12 - 03:27 AM

"Under the old system, the best of the writers and artists were signed by labels and professionally produced and presented. Now, with labels in decline, we have lost their jurying function and support and, as a resault, we have asthetic chaos."

well if that's how you found it to be, then I would conclude your taste is very different to mine.

I've never been particularly hung up on sound quality. And, as far as folk in the UK goes, I've generally found that the music put out by record labels was never a guarantee that I'd like their music.

You're forgetting that record labels are not motivated by the desire to put out good music, but by the desire to put out a product that sells. This tends to be more true the bigger the label (i.e. smaller independent labels, and indeed self-releases, tend to be less concerned with locating potential big-selling acts than putting out music they love.)

Actually Mick, I'd be genuinely interested to hear what you think of this music here:
http://www.boweavilrecordings.com/weavil_49.html

You can listen to 4 tracks from it on that link. I cite it as an example, because I don't think anyone could claim it's not a lo-fi recording. It hasn't had any input into its music bar the two musicians concerned. Do you think it's a good album? (I do, and I know I'm not alone in that.)

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: musicmick
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 08:28 PM

I took a look at that first post. If I pontificated, shame on me.
As I never pan a CD, in print, and as I was careful not to identify poorly produced recordings, I felt Ok about my comments. If I put some folks backs up, I am sorry.
But the message remains clear. Just because one can do something doesn't mean that one should. The field of songwriting is a good example of the bad driving out the good. Songwriting is easy but good songwriting, like every other art, takes special talent and time to develop. Not every songwriter is a W.S. Gilbert or a Cyril Tawney. The really good ones are few and far between but, because self recording is so easy and inexpensive, anyone can claim genius and muddy the waters for those truly gifted souls. Art is unfair and incredibly undemocratic. The most undeserving curs may be blessed with talent and the very finest folks may be cursed with mediocrity.
It is left to the critic, burdoned as he is with bias and intellectual limitation, to glean the wheat from the chaff. My fear is that inferior production may be clouding the picture painted by the really talented. Under the old system, the best of the writers and artists were signed by labels and professionally produced and presented. Now, with labels in decline, we have lost their jurying function and support and, as a resault, we have asthetic chaos.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 07:48 PM

I can see from your posts that you seem quite genuine in offering advice and help to enable people produce better CDs. However I do think that the tone of your first post was such as to put peoples' backs up and clearly it did which is a pity as you clearly have a lot of experience and are attempting to pass it on.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: musicmick
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 06:33 PM

I don't mind bleats from the cheap seats. There is nothing more pathetic than a loser rationalizing his "bad luck". My column is for those, looking to succede and, until they do, eager for tips to swuccess. May I request that those of you, who are cynical and resentful of outside advise, haunt some thread that more meets with their approval.
I have been a folksinger all my life and I have enjoyed it, immensely.
I hope to encourage others to continue spreading the songs of cultures that live, today, only in the songs. My message is that a decent living can be made in trad. Lord knows, there aare many who have earned their bread in the field. Here, in Philadelphia, I know a dozen full time folksingers and that doesn't even include the many who serve the Irish community.
I have shared my information and contacts with anyone who requests them. It is an attitude I picked up when I lived in Dublin in the late 60s. Everyone at O'Donaghue's was so supportive to an American interloper and I have never forgotten that.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: Acorn4
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 04:21 PM

I take the halfway house of recording at home then getting the mixing and mastering done by a pro. Cuts the cost quite a bit in terms of time but you end up with something reasonable if not top notch.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 04:12 PM

'paid'


but we are mudcatters and we do it our way

and because the purse dictates

and we are not all ego seekers

but thanks for your observations

now

soff

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: musicmick
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 03:32 PM

I guess I won't be getting any CDs from Sturgeon soon. My spelling is not as bad as my punctuation. Fortunately, my editor is more skilled in those areas.
I have been in the recording business for almost fifty years. I worked at Associated Studios, in NYC, as everything from gofer to gaffer to sideman to "artist". In Tel Aviv, I worked for Martef Productions and the Habima. In Philadelphia, I played on hundreds of sessions, at the Kennedy studio, and spent far too many hours as a producer. I admit that I was payed for all my efforts, so I do not share the financial burdons that so many others must bear but that doesn't stop me from sympathy and empathy. My own CD, "Legacy" on the Range label, was favorably received enough for the label to invite a second album.
I, sincerely, hope that Sturgeon has had similar success.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 03:32 PM

last time I was in a recording studio though, the engineer simply wasn't up to the job: nice enough bloke, but I got the distinct impression he was just placing mics in default places, and, well, I ended up with results that didn't sound hugely different to my horrible boxy-sounding home recordings.

I would agree with you about the importance of a producer, only I can think of plenty of albums that everyone else seems to absolutely love and give rave reviews to which I think are really over-produced. Or under produced.

I mean, really, how many independant folk releases today have a producer these days? 9 times out of 10 it's down to the musician. Whether they're good or bad seems to have very little to do with whether or not they had a producer, or whether or not they were recorded in a studio.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 03:15 PM

Mick pointed out the need for a good engineer and producer.

The engineer will hear mistakes that cannot be corrected in the final mix and make a call on the spot of whether to start again, keep going and then redo the offending stanza or know it is correctable in the final mix and let it go until later.

Part of a producer's job is to ensure that the mixture of songs is good and then decide the order of songs/pieces on the CD. The recording artist should be in on both mixing and mastering sessions. With no offense meant to anyone, it's your decision as a recording artist to yea or nay a given track or tracks. If your producer is not on board with your wishes, get another producer. Opinions are free as is advice. But at the end of the day the product will have your name on it in big letters, and the producer and engineer's will be on it in small letters. It's your reputation on the line, and because it is, you will have some hard decisions to make. Make 'em.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 02:57 PM

I wouldn't trust the reviews of anyone who's incapable of spelling 'independent', 'equipment', 'emblazoned' or 'dearth' correctly.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 02:52 PM

It's a good aim, Mick.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: musicmick
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 02:15 PM

No, I have not heard of the Aphex twin. For all I know, it is another kind of Siamese twin, fraternal twin or, for the baseball minded, Minnesota Twin. What I have heard is a slew of poorly recorded efforts that cost their investers time and money. It is to those unfortunate souls, that I address my suggestions.
There is a hell of a lot more to recording than the eqipment used. There is the ear, the experience and the expertise of a professional engineer and vetted producer. Reviewers have the advantage (or disadvantage, if you will) of having heard thousands of recordings, some "pro" and some "am" and, to a man, they will tell you that the "pro" usually has the better product.
I understand that many artists release CDs for reasons other than hoped for stardom. Often the releases are mid-life birthday presents to themselves and the sight of a jacket with their names emblazened is reward enough. But even the least ambitious would enjoy a encouraging review and, dare I say, some sales to defray their costs.
I started my column to give publicity to independant products that don't have the juice or bucks to publicise their efforts. That is still my aim.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,sturgeon
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 01:53 PM

Clearly, musicmick's never heard of Aphex Twin!

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: musicmick
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 01:39 PM

Matt,

If wishes were horses than beggars would never leave show biz. The differences between a professionally produced product and home brew are stark. Improvement in the field of recording equipment and the availability of home based studios have widened the gap, not narrowed it. It is true that the dirth of retail outlets has changed the market and obliterated the advantage that labels had, in regard to distribution and marketing. With most sales resulting from personal appearence and downloads, CD sales are more a result of touring, concertising and packaging and less of publicity, play and payola.
But, to a reviewer, who must base his opinion on what he hears, not what he sees, sound and crispness are coins of the realm.
Can a quality recording be made by an artist in his basement? Sure, but I wouldn't bet the ranch on his chances and betting the ranch is just what he is doing.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 01:26 PM

...and, in contrast, I've heard home-recorded folk albums recently by The Raven and by this board's very own Rapunzel & Sedayne which sounded like recording-studio audio fidelity to my ears.

If you take the trouble of sound-treating your recording room, then it's a moot point whether you're in a studio or at home.

Subject: RE: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 01:20 PM

To play devil's advocate, I've been listening to the album by Stephanie Hladowski and C. Joynes rather a lot recently. In terms of production it's pretty lo-fi. I'd be very surprised if it were a studio recording. But it hasn't stopped it getting (so far) rave reviews.

Subject: A Little Free Advise for Independent CD
From: musicmick
Date: 23 Sep 12 - 01:15 PM

I have been reviewing Folk CDs for twenty years and I am appaled at the lack of quality production that turns potentially good product into unlistenable pap. I suppose the ease, and relatively low cost, of independant production is the main cause of this epidemic of misguided ego projection. In the old days, record labels provided jurying and oversight, free from the subjective blindness of the artist. No label would have released some of the CDs I have heard. Half of them would never have been made and half would never have been released in their slipshod state. I can't help those whose recordings are beyond help but, for the rest of you, here are some ideas to consider before you invest your time, your dreams and your hard earned cash.
1. If you possably can, use a professional engineer in a real studio and let him do do the voodoo that he do so well. Think of it as taking out insurance.
2. Get a producer and make sure that he is objective. Friends and relatives are grand for celebration or solace but not so good for detatched judgement.
3. Never, and I mean NEVER be the final vote. If you can't find a real producer, ask a stranger and do what he says. He may be wrong but, at least, he will be brutally honest and, if you can't impress a stranger, how do you expect to impress a buying market?
4. Avoid "live performance" recording. Good recordings have been made outside the studio but they are expensive and tricky. It is true that a live performance has a verve and magic that can't be captured in a studio but, without expert engineering and costly eqipment, you are unlikely to reproduce that magic.
5. Understand that there is a world of difference between a performance and a recording. Without the intimacy and immediacy of performance, a recording must rely on a level of technical excellence that will withstand the rigors of repitition. Even Pete Seeger's recordings are shallow versions of his concerts and, if it's true for Pete, it's true for the rest of us.

If you guys have any specific questions, I will be glad to offer tips.
Good luck to everyone.