BS: Canucks... Trudeau?

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 03:39 PM

That was addressed to Hilo, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 03:34 PM

You can't be serious. ;-) It's not an indictment of rich people for being rich that we're talking about here. It's the fact that the political process has been taken over by corporate lobbyists and big banks, and they are in control of the major political parties, Congress, the presidency, the whole shebang.

And it's been happening for a long time...but it's been getting a lot worse and more obvious since the Reagan years in the USA, when the banking and lending sector was de-regulated in such a way as to allow them to create unbelievable amounts of phony money through what amounted to a Ponzi scheme.

And it's still happening. The crooks who did it have been bailed out repeatedly. They didn't use the bailout money to create jobs for the ordinary public in North America, though. They used it to do more lending offshore, because they can earn big bucks on the interest they charge to countries like Brazil, for example.

It isn't class warfare on the basis that "all rich people are bad". It's class warfare on the basis that a few of the rich people, namely those who control the biggest banks and biggest corporations, are controlling the political process in order to benefit themselves, and themselves only.

The policies that result from this control do somewhat benefit all rich people in various ways, but they weren't put there by the will of all the rich people. These same policies have essentially turned the various national currencies into something a lot like Monopoly money. That's what happens when your run a pyramid scheme.

The politicians are so terrified by what might happen if the bubble finally burst that they keep bailing out the crooks who did it in order to keep it inflated just a little bit longer....

That's class warfare BY a very few rich people against the whole rest of society. That's what it amounts to. The rest of society just wants to be left alone...but this system is not leaving them alone, it's systemically robbing them and their children of their future security.

When something like this occurred in France in the late 1700s, it finally resulted in a bloody revolution...one in which ALL rich people got blamed and punished for the situation, although all of them were certainly not guilty of having had any wrongful intention...and some of them were undoubtedly quite innocent people.

(What happened in France that finally made the revolution inevitable was that the price of food (bread) doubled almost overnight. Poor people began starving because they could no longer afford to feed themselves. Mobs took to the streets in Paris, and the monarchy fell.) The kind of desperation that brought down the French government was, I think, somewhat comparable to the kind of desperation that is being seen in the Middle East at present. It's what happens when a huge and frustrated underclass simply cannot take an oppressive situation any longer.

What's different in the Middle East, though, is that foreign powers are deliberately helping to provoke social unrest there and are supplying arms and aid to various of the revolutionaries. That wasn't the case at all in the France of the 1700s. All of Europe feared and opposed the French Revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 02:02 PM

Yes.

Re wealthy people... they are in on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 01:54 PM

I am afraid I don't get your reference gnu. Are we talking about big money or wealthy people who happen to be politicians. I am confused by your comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 01:52 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 01:51 PM

The warfare is that big money subverts the political process to do what it wants to whom it wants. I'll use a US example (more obvious than a Canuck example)... Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 01:36 PM

I am afraid I don't understand the class warfare point at all. Do you mean that wealthy people are, by virtue of being wealthy, to be excluded from the political process. As for intelligent leaders, it seems to me that when we put them forward they are usually accused of elitism. I think I am tired of the politics of resentment

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: number 6
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 01:04 PM

As in team sports, in class warfare one class wins, another is defeated ... the cycle will just continue on and on and on, and social justice will always be the victim.

I believe what we are witnessing today is a result of political ignorance (within the voters), empathy, apathy and arrogance (within all classes/teams). Democracy is alive and well within Canada. We have the governments we vote for. The only problem is we don't take notice probably because we don't really give a rat's ass. We don't excercise our democratic rights and speak up or take action. The class/team who is in power recognizes this and takes complete control, and why not.

Will humans ever see the light of humanity, will humans ever change?

biLL (who doesn't belong to any class/team)

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 12:17 PM

Excellent post, 999. Class warfare is what it is, allright.

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: gnu
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 12:05 PM

I think Dominic LeBlanc would be a better choice but, as I said, I think he'll sit in the bushes for some of the same negatives above regarding Trudeau.

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 08:20 AM

The liberal leadership race does seem low on the current radar of many.

Personally, I see the benefits of a multi party government, versus a two party one (for example, as in the USA).

It makes it more interesting, and provides an opportunity for new ideas to hatch and sometimes grow. There are good examples of third parties having an influence on governing party policies, for example, Tommy Douglas' influence on the earlier Trudeau.

I am not eager to see Canada's political scene evolve into a two party scenario (I admit there are also minor parties, but most have had minimal influence, beyond local issues - Block and Green- and with some media).

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 07:52 AM

When a government is disdainful of its citizens, when a government deals well internationally but poorly nationally, when a people cowtow to their own government: folks, therein lies the rot and therein is the problem.

A worst thing that's happened to Canada in the past sixty years is the influence of television, and that's led to another worst thing. I'm gonna rant for a second or two and if you wish to ignore it, simply go to the next paragraph. Thank you. These fucking iPhones and iPads--I'm not sure exactly what they are--but gawd dammit they are a hell of a public nuisance.

What we are witnessing internationally is class warfare on an unprecedented scale. In the UK, about 70% of the cabinet are millionaires. In the US, about 50% of congress are millionaires. I can't find figures for Canada, but bucks to doughnuts, the House of Commons has got lots. The Hair is worth 5 million. They are no longer speaking for their citizens; they are speaking for the general economic interests of their ilk, and that ain't the majority of us. So once again we'll buy into the sideshow, entranced by the shenanigans, and millionaires will empty our national coffers, banks and finally our wallets/purses.

We are beginning to see the weaponization of the most fundamental need people have: food. We need much more than platitudes or slogans to bring that shit into line.

I do not want as a leader the guy or gal who plays at the dog and pony show. I want brains coupled with compassion for all our citizens. I want big money and its pernicious influence out of the political arena, both at home and elsewhere. I want a party and a leader who embrace a sense of social justice within the reality of freedom, not the chimera of freedom within the walls of a prison.

I do not think Trudeau has what it takes. It's beginning to look like such a party and leader just ain't. It would take 5% of the population to change that, but if we can't be arsed, it just ain't gonna happen. The ugly thing about class warfare is that it eats its young. I hope there are future generations that look back and see how foolish we were to sacrifice a Garden of Eden for the right to have scraps from the table of the rich while we subjugate the poor among us and abroad.

Say goodnight, Chet.

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 02:45 AM

I think the only thing they actually stand for, other than a vague sense of their own party identity based on the past history OF their party, is getting elected! And staying in power once they are. And therein lies the problem.

That is the essential problem with most political parties these days. They're in the game mostly just to WIN the game, not to serve the public or to govern according to a coherent and workable philosophy.

The neocons of Harper's ilk, of course, have a philosophy. It's just not a workable or useful one. ;-)

The primary thing that unites the Liberals is the keen sense that they are NOT the Conservatives. That's true...but it's not enough.

The NDP did once have a coherent and workable philosophy. I keep wondering if they'll manage to find it again someday.

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: meself
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 02:09 AM

Marc Garneau anyone? A grown-up who's actually done something ....

The Liberals are trying for another 'easy fix' - they didn't learn their lesson with Ignatief. They need to figure out what they collectively stand for, and sell that to the voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: number 6
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 01:22 AM

It's a marketing facade .... trying to sell the populace that by having Trudeau in the 'in' it will be bring us all back to a time of glory and prosperity ... sorta like marketing Obama as the new Kennedy and it will be like the days of Camelot.

We are in desperate times, heading down a road of the unknown and uncertainty. People need to think we are heading back to a time that was somehow to our believe a warm and fuzzy time of security.

20th century politics will not work in a 21st century world ... and that's the bottom line.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 12:32 AM

The Liberals figure he's saleable on the basis of his name, and they don't have anyone else who is. I'd rather see them and all the other political parties in the country disappear. Of course...that's not going to happen. He'll probably give them a bit of a lift for awhile, but I doubt that it'll be enough to return them to their former position as "Canada's natural governing party".

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 12:23 AM

What about after 5-10 years as leader of an opposition party?

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: Beer
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 10:49 PM

I seldom give any opinion on politics. but in this case I want to say this. I am disappointed that Justin is running for the liberal leadership. I will not vote for him. I don't believe he is ready for the supreme position due to lack of experience.

However, if he had left the federal party and come to Quebec to run for the vacant spot with Charest's leaving, I would get out there and push for him 125%. After his 1st or 2nd. term as Provincial leader he would then be ready to take on the top post and I would truly support him. So, between now and the judjement day, someone will have to convince me that I should vote for him "if he gets that far".
Adrien

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 09:57 PM

Well that sucks. We didn't used to.

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 09:46 PM

so, where are we going you ask

we're going we're every other western nation's going.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 08:06 PM

So, where are we going?

Subject: RE: BS: Canucks... Trudeau?
From: Charmion
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 08:03 PM

The Liberal Party is doomed -- at least at the federal level. It will hang on for a while in provincial politics but, like the Progressive Conservatives, it's a dead party walking.

Subject: BS: Canucks... Trudeau in 13?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Sep 12 - 07:07 PM

Ya think?

LeBlanc won't run. Too smart. Unless they cook up a deal.

Ya see anyone else out there with a shot?