BS: Death penalty for disobedient children

Subject: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Arkie
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 11:18 AM

While I can personally testify to the presence of some wonderful, thoughtful, intelligent people in Arkansas and can honestly include conservatives and republicans, we have our bigots and fools just as does Mudcat.

The morning paper mentions Charlie Fuqua of Batesville (lock the doors, Batesville is only 35 miles to the east)who is a candidate for the state legislature (I don't think I need to mention which party)who in a recent book "God's Law" suggests that the law stated in Deut 21:18-21 be instituted. He does not think it would have to be used often, and one must follow strict rules but it would allow the stoning of disobedient children. This charitable pro-life candidate also suggests that prisoners who cannot be rehabilitated in two years be executed and all Muslims be deported.

More details for the curious can be found in the following link. But first a word about Loy Mauch, sitting Representative from Bismarck. Brother Loy has the endorsement of the Arkansas Right to Life Political Action Committee and has repeatedly defended the institution of slavery and has referred to Abraham Lincoln as a terrorist, Nazi, and Marxist and in one dramatic quote a "fake neurotic Northern war criminal". His comments appeared in a series of letters to the Arkansas Democrat Gazette. This link has a bit about Mauch, Fuqua, and Hubbard.

Arkansas Times

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 12:19 PM

Now, there's a REAL "Christian"[sic] for ya.

Hey, these nutcases are positively pandered to by the Republican Party (or what's left of it)so what should one expect but exactly this sort of thing.

If the TeaPubs had ANY conscience or moral compass whatsoever, they'd distance themselves from these lunatics & condemn them.


Q.E.D.

(Abe a Nazi? I always thought he was ahead of his time.....)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 12:20 PM

That link doesn't seem to work, but a search on the names gets several articles.

I am beyond appalled that anyone would vote for ANY of these people... but even more appalled that supposedly reasoning humans could develop such ideas at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 12:35 PM

Here's another one. And this guy is from my home state of Georgia:

Here's a video

Do I need to add that this guy is on the Congressional Committee on Science Space and Technology? Astounding.





12:01 PM ET
Congressman draws fire for calling evolution, Big Bang 'lies from the pit of hell'
By Dan Gilgoff, CNN.com Religion Editor

Washington (CNN) – A U.S. congressman is attracting attention and criticism for an online video that shows him blasting evolution and the Big Bang theory as "lies from the pit of hell" in a recent speech at a church event in his home state of Georgia.

"All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, the Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell," U.S Rep. Paul Broun said in an address last month at a banquet organized by Liberty Baptist Church in Hartwell, Georgia. "And it's lies to try to keep me and all the folks who were taught that from understanding that they need a savior."

Broun, a medical doctor by training, serves on the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology.

Speaking at Liberty Baptist Church's Sportsman's Banquet on September 27, he said that "a lot of scientific data that I've found out as a scientist that actually show that this is really a young Earth."

"I don't believe that the Earth's but about 9,000 years old," Broun said in the speech, which Liberty Baptist Church posted on its website via YouTube. "I believe it was created in six days as we know them. That's what the Bible says."

Scientists say that the Earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old and that the universe dates back 13.7 billion years.

In his speech to the church group, Broun called the Bible the "the manufacturer's handbook. … It teaches us how to run all of public policy and everything in our society."

"That's the reason, as your congressman, I hold the holy Bible as being the major directions to me of how I vote in Washington, D.C., and I'll continue to do that," he said.

Broun's office did not immediately respond to a request for comment Wednesday.

The congressman's remarks about science have drawn attention online, with critics taking aim at his role on the science committee.

Bill Nye, the popular science personality, told the Huffington Post in an e-mail that "Since the economic future of the United States depends on our tradition of technological innovation, Representative Broun's views are not in the national interest."

"For example, the Earth is simply not 9,000 years old," said Nye, a mechanical engineer and television personality best known for his program "Bill Nye the Science Guy." Broun "is, by any measure, unqualified to make decisions about science, space, and technology."

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Musket
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 12:45 PM

mmm... Here in the first world, we really do get a bit scared of less advanced countries such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, United States of America, Nigeria, North Korea etc, letting dogma rather than pragmatic facts dictate how their country is run.

What is really scary is that some of these countries have military equipment that can reach beyond their borders. Now that's scary if an uneducated electorate allow people with mental health problems run for office.

Joking apart, I thought you had a secular constitution? I once read that only The UK and Iran officially had religion as part of their statutory framework, and whilst I can't speak for Iran, we largely ignore the idiots and get on with pragmatic government, even the bad bits.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Arkie
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 12:46 PM

Sorry about the link. It just had a little about all the folks named in one place. For those who are interested there is plenty of information available on the net. Gov. Beebe, who is concerned about the image of Arkansas, has commented and to his credit has not used the outrageous views of a few as an attack on republicans or all conservatives. I cannot help but wonder if the crazies happened to be democrats what the response may have been. Republicans in the state have begun to distance themselves a bit from Fuqua, Hubbard, and Mauch. Some have requested that contributions to their campaigns be donated to charity.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 12:47 PM

> It teaches us how to run all of public policy and everything in our society.

Don't some people say that about the Quran?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 01:26 PM

Something has certainly kept that guy from realising he needs a saviour, and soon.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 01:40 PM

How do you spell "American Taliban"???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 02:16 PM

I am beyond appalled that anyone would vote for ANY of these people...

Millions do. Welcome to the U.S. - best country on earth, you bet.

Also, welcome to the current Republican Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 02:35 PM

Arkie, you do have some interesting elected officials.

Arkansas State Rep: 'If Slavery Were So God-Awful, Why Didn't Jesus Or Paul Condemn It?' (state Rep. Loy Mauch (R) in letters to the Democrat-Gazette, vehemently defended slavery and repeatedly suggested Jesus condoned it. His other letters call Abraham Lincoln a Marxist and celebrate the Confederate flag as "a symbol of Christian liberty vs. the new world order." The state GOP has finally pulled funds from him.)

Arkansas State Representative: Slavery Was A 'Blessing In Disguise' For 'The Blacks' (State Rep. Jon Hubbard (R-Jonesboro) in his 2010 book, "Letters to the Editor: Confessions of a Frustrated Conservative". Hubbard says, "...they've taken small portions of my book out of context, and distorted what was said to make it appear that I am racist, which is totally and completely false." I'd like to see any context that would put this in a better light!)

Republican Candidate [for state legislature] In Arkansas Says Parents Should Seek Death Penalty Against 'Rebellious Children' (Charlie Fuqua, candidate for the Arkansas legislature, in his 2012 book, "God's Law: The Only Political Solution". Fuqua is a former member of the Arkansas legislature and has received support from two sitting members of Congress. The state GOP, who supported him previously, has now cut him off. Fuqua's book previously came under scrutiny for advocating expelling all Muslims from the United States. )

All of these links go to "ThinkProgress.org", a blog from the Center for American Progress that I visit daily for my daily dose of lefty outrage. I do try to read it somewhat critically... I certainly try to put some emotional insulation on before reading.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 02:37 PM

Is Charlie Fuqua really his name?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 02:40 PM

And these people call themselves "Christians."

There is more than sufficient reason for the weeping of Jesus. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 02:41 PM

Wesley, we know having lived in Georgia that there are so many fundamentalist
nut cases in the state and this statement doesn't surprise me at all.

I didn't see anything about death penalty for children in the Bible. I seems I read somewhere that Jesus loved the little children and didn't expect them to act like adults.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 02:42 PM

It's pronounced foo-kwa, not the way you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:09 PM

These Christians, Don, keep trying to read that dreadfully written book - you know, the Bible - but can't seem to get but a few pages into it before confusion sets in... In other words, they never make it to the New Testament and the Jesus part...

Jesus would tell the entire bunch to "fuck off" if He were to come back today... Actually, if he did come back today they'd badger Him the same way they go after Obama...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:24 PM

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.


----------------------------------------------------------

So.. it's in the Bible... gotta take it all literally! But...this is only relevant to naughty kids who live in gated communities?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Penny S.
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 03:36 PM

Charlie isn't that wonderful - as in a "proper Charlie". I did get the correct pronunciation, but couldn't resist, applying the principle whereby Hyacinth Bucket becomes Bouquet.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:25 PM

He missed the 'thou shalt not kill' part I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: gnu
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 04:35 PM

This nutbar is a scientist who believes the earth is 6000 years old and people support him? Throw on top of that the others? The dispair thread comes to mind.

Re the bible... I talked at length to a man who had almost became a Jesuit priest and he told me that it was written so that a priest could support or deny any action or circumstance. The example I recall immediately is "eye for an eye" vs "turn the other cheek". That is "control".

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:16 PM

Ask any bible scholar. The correct literal translation is "Thou shalt not do murder." That makes capital punishment and killing in combat, which are sanctioned by society, perfectly OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 05:39 PM

Honor thy father and thy mother...that thy days may be long upon the earth.

Only commandment with a "promise." It is connected to old Deuteronomy ...by many scholars.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

hmmm what might the others be...that thou might not be afflicted with a pox?   ...that thou might not become depressed in thy later years? ...that thou might find peace in the darkness?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Paul Reade
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 06:05 PM

If Charlie Fuqua has any children, they should immediately be taken into care, or at least placed on the "at risk" register.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: KHNic
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 02:26 PM

Isn't it now time for a redfinition of the term Christian to avoid the association with the term Rabid Bigot?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 02:40 PM

I think what is baffling to us Europeans is less the fact that you have a few deranged people making speeches. It is more the fact that they can always get an audience. I guess if ignorance is bliss you must have a lot of happy people over there.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: gnu
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 09:54 PM

They must be happy. On accounta them ameners is igorant, like ya say.

It's apalling... the "best country in the world" has the most uneducated and the most educated (deabtale when ya consider yer China n such what invests in edgumacation and research and whatnot) and the overall lot of them can't tell the difference. Couldn't, maybe? We'll see what happens Nov 4.

I LOVE you Yanks and "Thank God for the Good Old USA!" but ya really gotta git yer shit tagether EH? The rest of us are gettin a tad nervous!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:16 AM

Flat WHAT. Sorry for the shouting, but that's what's in my head. This is sick!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Musket
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:53 AM

Nice to see that murder is yet again portrayed as not murder when state sanctioned.

zzz

Mind you, kill enough by state approval and you can always work your way up to genocide.

Keep banging the rocks together....

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:23 AM

Musket ~~ One of your intelligence can surely see the difference between 'murder' as a legal concept', and 'murder' as a metaphorical hyperbole for a specific legal process?

If not, then The Force save us all!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Musket
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:43 AM

True, I can. Or I think I can...

I do have an issue with the dictionary term and the common parlance term being mixed up, mainly because state sanctioned having a different term is just sweetening it to make it more socially acceptable. Hence murder is murder as far as I am concerned.

Like I said, if a state sanctioned murder is not murder, then what is it? if you do enough state murders it becomes genocide, especially if you pick out those different to the norm. (Non evangelical rational people judging by the political idiots referred to on this thread.)

If you automatically accept something as going from a bad idea to a good idea on the basis of a legislative vote, you may wonder why you bothered developing a conscience in the first place...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 06:12 AM

What is it? Why, when and where it is done, it is a legal execution carried out in accordance with the Law currently in force under such governances. Don't be disingenuous; you know that perfectly well.

And you know equally well such recourse to have been part of the legal code of pretty-well every society since men have lived in communities, and that the last very few years during which it has fallen out of favour in some parts of the world {& ONLY some}, constitute very much the historical exception.

So go on calling it what you like "as far as you are concerned"; but do not expect thus to be taken seriously by anyone who approaches the topic with one iota of historical [or any other sort of] intelligence. Why go on persisting in being what you know to be just plain wilfully silly? It really is not worthy of you.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 06:41 AM

"Fuqua" - this appears to be an example of Nominative determinism" - "the theory that a person's name can have a significant role in determining key aspects of job, profession or even character."

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 07:46 AM

Oh I don't know.

My stance seems to be serving at least one purpose....

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 11:05 AM

Interesting that a purely literal interpretation of the Commandment might seem to allow genocide, if "legally" executed. Certainly there are mass slaughters in the Old Testament which are approved by the Almighty.

Somewhat similarly, the New Testament advises slaves to obey their masters.

By current civilized, secular, atheist, agnostic, ecumenical, or humanist standards (take your pick), passages like those would require extensive qualification.

So either the bible can't be, or shouldn't be, taken as literal for all time, or else something's wrong somewhere.

Could that something be our modern reluctance to take it literally? Or could it be something else?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Musket
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 11:37 AM

You may say advancing civilisation.

But if you did, you may find people who would relish the thought of you burning in their contraption called Hell for all time.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 01:52 PM

I've always found the idea that the commandment refers to murder rather than killng rather baffling. For all the other commandments, it is God who is the ultimate arbiter of whether the commandment is broken or not, but for this one he is powerless: it is the 'state' that decides and God is in effect subject to the wishes of the state. How this commandment is supposed to word in times of civil war when there is no clear 'state', or in situations like genocides when the state says it is ok, or before the modern concept of 'state' developed at all - it wasn't the same thing at all in biblical times - is anyone's guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 04:53 PM

He's not powerless and he's not subject to the wishes of the state. In OT times, the "state" was chosen by God to worship and represent him in the world. The "divine right of kings" as it was later called meant that the king was on the throne solely through God's action, direct or indirect. The point of the Commandment is that no person has the God's permission to kill a member of God's community. Idolaters were not part of that community, and those sentenced by the community to death would have been judged guilty of breaking one or more Commandments or some other law that the king deemed fubdamental.

God can't be powerless as long as he has the ultimate authority to say what is not permitted. Murder, in this case, isn't permitted, but as a concept, "murder" in OT times only applied within the community.

If a person killed an idolater (a slave perhaps?) presumably the legal system would have determined his punishment, if any. But whatever his punishment, his crime would be more like manslaughter than "murder."

Or so I understand it.

Of course the Commandment doesn't necessarily mean that crimes like manslaughter should go unpunished. All it specifies is that "murder" is absolutely forbidden.

My point is that if killing in war and by legal capital punishment were meant to be forbidden by Commandment, it seems strange from a modern perspective that the Commandment should be worded that narrowly. If they weren't meant to be forbidden, that suggests that the secular morality that finds combat and executions abhorrent is more stringent than divine Commandment.

That idea seems very odd to me. Of course, the eleventh Commandment to love thy neighbor might trump the sixth, but trumping a Commandment sounds odd too. It would suggest that not all biblical guides to behavior are meant for all time, and that human understanding of God can "evolve." But that would be a very big problem for literalists.

By the way, Augustine and other Church fathers were very clear that killing pagan warriors wasn't sinful so long as the Christian soldier did so in the spirit of love. They agreed it was difficult, but far from impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 05:34 PM

The Eleventh Commandment is "thou shalt not be found out". But the original proposition is answered by John 8:7, with proof beyond reasonable doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 06:45 PM

I said: it is the 'state' that decides and God is in effect subject to the wishes of the state.

Lighter said: He's not powerless and he's not subject to the wishes of the state.

So let's taken the the case of an individual brought before God for judgement, who killed someone. Is it God or the man's state that decides whether he has broken the commandment?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 08:03 PM

Obviously God. I don't see your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 12 Oct 12 - 08:16 PM

Posted to the "terrorism" thread, but apropos here as well:

http://news.yahoo.com/conversations-malala-yousafzai-girl-stood-taliban-133500248.html

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 02:51 AM

"Obviously God. I don't see your point."

I'll try to be clearer. The commandment says 'murder', and it is being interpreted that the it is the state which decides whether a specific killing is murder or not. So if the state has decided it is not, is God bound to follow that decision? If the state has decided it is mrder, is God bound to follow that decision? If the the answer to both of those is 'yes', then it is not God deciding whether the commandment is broken, it is the state. On the other hand, if God is not bound to agree with the state then it cannot be the state that determines whether a killing is murder or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 09:15 AM

Now I think I understand.

I'll assume that God does whatever he wants, but he only wants to do things that are right and just.

The assumption behind the Commandment seems to be that earthly laws made by God's people will be just, because God inspires his people to do justice.

Thus, any legal distinction between murder and manslaughter (or no crime at all) ultimately derives from God and is presumed just.

In that case, God is not "bound" by man's laws. His will and those laws simply run parallel. The laws reflect his will. God's idea of "murder" should thus be the same as the state's - and vice versa.

> if God is not bound to agree with the state then it cannot be the state that determines whether a killing is murder or not.

The word "determine" is confusing. The state "determines" who does and does not deserve earthly punishment. God is the supreme judge who may agree or disagree with the state's verdict on an individual and "determine" his fate in that case.

So I don't understand how either the Commandment or the state's application of it takes away God's ability either to punish or to show mercy in specific cases.

God, not the state, is thus the absolute cosmic arbiter of an individual's guilt or innocence.

While the Commandments demand behavior that is pleasing to God and fundamental to society, no specific punishment is mentioned for violating them - except the inescapable and ultimate one of incurring God's wrath, and that could be experienced in any number of ways. Specific legal punishments are left to the king and the state. Evidently not all violations were traditionally punished by death.

God's Commandment forbids murder absolutely as an offense against God - but not battlefield killing or the death penalty. That's not to say that abolition of the death penalty, or the use of bean bags in war, would displease God, merely that the Commandment leaves those decisions to the state. Murder is an affront to God, but the death penalty isn't.   

That strikes many people as odd.

Note too that there are no Commandments against either slavery or torture. While that's not the same as recommending them, it seems to be a striking oversight, except that God doesn't make oversights. I'll let others others thrash out these problems.

P.S.: We're using logic to answer these questions. That's what Darwin used, and look where it got him. Does God not want us to use logic? Or just not to use it in matters of faith? But why should logic and faith, both instilled in us by God, ever contradict one another? (Whoa! There I go using logic again!)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 09:38 AM

We're using logic to answer these questions.

I hope so, because I am very much inclined to logic. And if I am not mistaken - which I may be - it was Thomas Aquinus who insisted faith must be reasonable, in the sense of being capable of reasoned about.

I'll assume that God does whatever he wants, but he only wants to do things that are right and just.

The assumption behind the Commandment seems to be that earthly laws made by God's people will be just, because God inspires his people to do justice

That use of "God's people" quite literally hides a multitude of sins! Who decides (on earth) whether a certain group merits the title of God's people and can on the one hand declare specific killings as murder or not, with their people protected by God's laws, or if a group does not merit the title and 'we' are somehow then at liberty to decide whether they are candidates for blowing to pieces. Take care how you answer, since that's exactly what religous terrorists throughout the ages and now have always claimed as their right to decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 09:46 AM

I'll assume that God does whatever he wants, but he only wants to do things that are right and just.

In passing, I must refer you to Euthyphro and his discussion with Socrates...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 09:48 AM

Strikes me that a discussion predicated on an anthropomorphic vision of God, such as this one, is a bit like a sand squirrel in a rotating wheel, getting lots and lots of exercise.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 09:53 AM

I agree, Amos. And there would be little point in the exercise if people didn't try to make wars and laws based on such ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 10:43 AM

""God's Commandment forbids murder absolutely as an offense against God - but not battlefield killing or the death penalty. That's not to say that abolition of the death penalty, or the use of bean bags in war, would displease God, merely that the Commandment leaves those decisions to the state. Murder is an affront to God, but the death penalty isn't.""

The Commandment?.... The Ten Commandments?

A salient feature of a 6 millennia long game of Chinese whispers, which some misguided souls take to be literal truth.

Try it sometime! Line up fifty people fifteen feet apart and relay a reasonably complex message in normal conversational tones, then compare what comes out of the other end.

Then consider the same procedure carried out from father to son over several millennia, and while you are at it, have a brief look at the folk process and the variants it has produced.

What has been written of the Old Testament has been written by men with a social agenda, and as parable and analogy it serves its purpose.

But we have only the word of those MEN for the veracity or accuracy of the events described.

In fact, even if the story of Moses and the Ten Commandments were true, we would still only have Moses word as to how he came by them.

If anybody knocked on your door asking you to invest in a project based on that level of evidence, you would undoubtedly send him packing and probably inform the police.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 03:05 PM

Any religion is a self-sealing system.

If you believe, you believe no matter what, and if you find inconsistencies or unreasonable claims or demands, you overlook them and believe what everybody around you is believing, because God by definition is smarter than you are.

As soon as you stop believing, you're out of the system. You'll be treated accordingly by your still-believing former friends.

Hitler more or less claimed that Germans are the chosen people, and tens of millions of Christian Germans agreed that it had to be true, because it made them feel so good. When it started making them feel bad, most of them quit believing. The Japanese (whose Emperor descended straight from the Sun God)underwent a similar disillusionment.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for disobedient children
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Oct 12 - 05:02 PM

we had a few doorstep conversations with religious folk when up in aberdeen. we liked to ask the question if it is right that as responsible parents we should take our disobedient children to northfield (an adjoining part of town - or in OT terms a nearby village) and stone them to death. i had a sort of admiration for evangelists who tried to defend this 'policy' when it would be much easier for them to agree that the old testament (at least) is a load of irrelevant nonsense. i suppose it was a bit cruel of us to instruct one of our kids to join the conversations and ask if they were about to be stoned to death 'please don't take me to northfield, mummy!'

on a related matter i am in the process of applying for a job at a catholic school. as an atheist with an interest in buddhist philosophy (and, conversely, a celtic fan with 5 kids) any suggestions how to answer the question about my 'denomition/faith'? if i had 'taken my child to northfield' should i mention it on the form as a demonstration of my christian faith?