BS: The next Tory Government

Subject: BS: The next Tory Government
From: s&r
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 06:05 AM

Here is your future cabinet

Love it

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 06:44 AM

There never will be another Tory government.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 07:44 AM

Oh dear, Owen, I wish that were true! You see the Labour Tories will destroy the LibDems and then the Tory Tories will be in charge ... forever.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 08:03 AM

I do hope that any future conservative government will not be until after my death.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 10:47 AM

Is there any point in trying to predict who will be in the cabinet in 18+ uears?

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 02:46 PM

Leopards do not change their spots. The purpose of conservatives is for the haves to oppress the have-nots.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 04:07 PM

But the "have nots" by your definition have one hell of a lot more than the "have nots" in say Brazil, Argentina and India, so really in the UK they are of no consequence whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 04:17 PM

""I do hope that any future conservative government will not be until after my death.""

There's more than one way to achieve that ambition sir.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 05:28 PM

If the Scots go independent, there is likely to be a permanent inbuilt Tory majority, based on a minority of votes, at any rate until the electoral system was reformed to give some kind of proportional representation.

And if it looks like the next government will be Tories the chances are greatly increased that the Scots will vote for independence.   

All rather worrying.

If the Scots do vote for independence in 2014 there could be one escape route - the actual breakup of the UK would probably take long enough to negotiate and carry through so that the 2015 General Election would still have to take place first, so that the Commons would still include Scottish MPs, virtually none of whom would be Tories. That could provide an opportunity for everyone other than the Tories to introduce a PR reform in time for the next election following the end of the union. Only if the Labour Party came to its senses, of course, so it'd be an outside chance.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 07:48 PM

Hmm, Don, a three legged ninja?

Bonzo, you are an idiot. The need for revolution abroad has little bearing on the need for one here. And before you say "What about the USA", the need from the point of view of the rest of the world for a government there not comprised of attack dogs and plutocrats and the paranoid (oh, and God-botherers) is that they have more WMD than the rest of the world put together.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: GUEST,anonymous for obvious reasons
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 09:01 PM

We could win prizes with you guys.

The purpose of conservatives is to repair the damage done by the last Labour government. Again and again and again.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 04:36 AM

The purpose of Labour is to repair the social damage of previous Conservative governments. Agsin and again and again. Trouble is it get more expensive each time.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 05:52 AM

GUEST,anonymous for obvious reasons. The present crisis wasn't caused by the previous government. Neither was it caused by this government, even though they seem hell bent on making it even worse.

We are in the teeth of a global economic crisis which was caused in no small measure by the get rich mega fast antics of a handful of bankers, and the only solution which capitalist governments can come up with is to bleed the populace with successions of austerity cuts. The effect of same is to take ever more spending power out of the economy, thus making the crisis even worse, and pushing us ever closer to the edge of a depression. Such a depression would be at least as bad as the one in the 1930s, if not worse, and from it there will be no way out; at any rate not by conventional economics.

That is why I do not think there will ever be another Tory government.

BTW. What are the obvious reasons?

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 05:54 AM

Owen might have added - "and to give the money to the banker thieves and shill gamers who caused the problem in the first place".

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 06:34 AM

Richard. That is eminently true, but not very helpful in terms of where we go from here. Marxists have always argued that capitalism is doomed for roughly the reasons I've just outlined. IE., the only way that capitalists can compete with other capitalists and thereby stay in business, is by continually cutting the earnings of their workers; who then find they cannot buy the goods upon which capitalism depends for its existence.

Thus it goes, in a vicious downward spiral until the whole system crashes.

I am not a Marxist for quite a number of reasons. Not least among them is the fact that the experience of most of the the past 70 years has been one of a long sustained boom, which has ended up benefitting the worker as well as the capitalist.

However, given the size and scale of the present crisis, and the lack of alternative strategies for dealing with it, I can't help feeling that we are at last about to see Marx's prediction come true.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 10:08 AM

""We could win prizes with you guys.

The purpose of conservatives is to repair the damage done by the last Labour government. Again and again and again.""

The last thing we real Tories need is a supporter who hasn't the guts to step into the open and TAKE the flak.

If you're too scared to have the courage of your convictions I'd suggest you do us a favour and join the Labour party.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 10:25 AM

""The purpose of Labour is to repair the social damage of previous Conservative governments. Agsin and again and again. Trouble is it get more expensive each time.""

Sorry SPB, but that's because their stock answer is to throw money in its general direction without any control of how it's misused, and signally fail to get anything like the desired result.

That's precisely why this country isn't floating over the current mire on a raft of gold reserves. Ask Gordon Brown why he chose to flog 'em off when gold reached the lowest price for half a century.

Wilson devalued the currency. Callaghan left office with inflation at 21.9% and interest rates at 15%, and, contrary to what the likes of RB would want you to believe, industry already dead on its feet while Maggie Thatcher was still Leader of the Opposition.

See where this is leading? The case you make has more holes than a lace doily.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Owen Woodson
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 12:07 PM

Don. Frankly I don't. I could as well point out that that the Conservatives left office in 1964, with a balance of trade deficit of £800,000,000. That sounds chickenfeed by today's standards, I know, but just think how many pints it could have bought 50 years ago. Come to that, I remember the horrendous inflation which erupted in this country shortly after Maggie took office. Unlike the previous bout under Labour, that one didn't reflect world economic trends, so much as the politics of monetarism.

The point however, is that we're now talking about a global crisis, not a national one, and it has very little to do with profligate governments of the right or of the left. Neither Labour nor the Tories caused the present furore in Greece or Spain. Yet their economies are disappearing down the pan just the same.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 12:51 PM

The last government was a Tory government, but with a deceptive label claiming to be something else. That's why they did things that helped screw things up, like relaxing regulations on banks and financiers who proceeded to wreck everything in sight in pursuit of short-term profits.

.....................
Getting back to something I said in my last post, I note in today's paper that a poll of Scottish voters has confirmed that there should be be a majority for independence, if Scots believe the next government will be Tory - 52%.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 01:04 PM

You are entitled to your own opinion Owen, but not your own FACTS.

The Thatcher government inherited that inflation rate of 21.9% and the runaway interest rates that went with it.

When New Labour took over in '97, inflation was down to 2.5% and the coffers were full of money, which Brown set out to squander with consummate efficiency, while at the same time ecouraging a level of personal, corporate and government debt which led directly to the bankers running wild with our money.

He removed every restriction which might have prevented the collapse, spent all the government's (actually of course our) money on tinkering about the edges of problems without solving any.

When the dosh started to run out, he flogged our last remaining safety margin, the gold, and sold it for peanuts too.

With that reserve, we would have been untouched by the recession.

Of course the Tories have got it wrong, often in fact, but Labour has certainly never put it right again, and lacks the ability to do so now.

That's why Brown was so willing to run away from a Labour/LibDem coalition. He would have had to deal with his own mess, and he would now be getting a kicking for the cuts, which were and are inevitable.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 02:03 PM

Bridge reckons the tories are purely for the haves as opposed to the have nots.

Are you sure you are describing them? You see you are describing Labour as well.

I wish reality was as simple as the la la land of Bridge. Wouldn't life be more simple?

The reality is that doctrine doesn't win either way on the basis that everyone can aspire to a better lot so every post war government has tried their take on social democracy.

Sometimes successfully sometimes not. Sometimes competently sometimes not.

But never polarised to the point of that portrayed by shallow people.

This lot? Incompetent and stuffed with a few of Bridge's bogeymen. But they are show boating. Tory doctrine can't win an election any more than eat the rich spartist nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 08:46 PM

Don. Black Wednesday? Check it out.

Also Thatcher's doctrinaire abolition of exchange control that cost the UK £30 billion and is argued to have made the disastrous liberalisation of banking inevitable - see http://www.cepr.org/pubs/bulletin/dps/dp294.htm

Gold reserves and exchange rates are simply for dickswingers with no brains.


Mither - that is you, Mither, in disguise, isn't it? - New Labour may be bad, but the conservatives are far worse for the poor. Their 47% moment came yesterday with the formation of the "Blue Tories". A plan to appeal to the working class (surely they can't be fooled twice) - but no mention at all of any appeal to the unwaged. A bit of a giveaway that.

Life for those who are not rich is bad under New Labour, but impossible under the conservatives - and it is intended to be, to make them more readily coerced by capital.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 09:03 PM

How about this;

The only source, the only TRUE source of growth comes from the private sector re investing it's profits.

The public sector is financed by taxing the private sector.

If the public sector gets too big the private sector is taxed so much that it can't re invest and then growth stops.

Discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 10:04 PM

Time for economics 101

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: ollaimh
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 10:44 PM

it sure look to me like the purpose of progressive governments is to repair the damage of right wing deregulation and over spending.

thatcher created real deficits for her whole term, only covered up by oil revenues. then she deregulated starting the financial abuse. this started the deindustrialzation and debt.

regan did much the same.

in canada the mulroney tories ran nine years of the largest deficits in canadian history and doubled our debt. the "terrible" loiberals ran eleven years of surplusees and kept most of the social programs. now harper has run back to back deficits that gain set the record for size. and they plan to keep it up untill 2015. they have already wiped out the liberal pay down of the long term debt. they will double it before they are through.

there is a reason for this.. the massive spending increases and tax cuts creates a massive transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. the richest corporations and people no longer pay taxes and shift the responsibility to the governbment and the poorer tax payers .

this has been a sea change. it is not unlike france before the revolution. the upper classes avoided all taxes. eventually the weight of crushing taxation led to the revolution.

i think revolution is way off but the stagnancy of western economies is bot going to change untill the richest pay taxes and agreee to needed regulation.

i like lord salisberry. he said: "a successfull conservative party can delay essential reform legislation by at least fifty years"

at least he was honest

of course i pray for alba independence then a law of return for all us diaspora gaels who were ethniclly cleansed from our homes by the genocidal british empire. however the result could be a built in tory majority which should get english people thinking how screwed uo their culture and beliefs are and have been for hundreds of years. they never pass up a war.

in canada if quebec left confederation, we would lose a bulkward of progress and get a bilt in tory majority. that should make english canadians think how screwed up english canadian culture has been as the result of being part of the genocidal empire.

alba gu breath!! oila a alba!

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Musket
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 04:24 AM

Aye, but this time with cookie...

Away from the Punch and Judy Show that the media want and the politicians pander to, either party can and will only deliver a shallow pale image of the social democracy they promise.

But you know, that must be better than any polarised government? Th*tcher seemed to get away with reactionary dogma based policies, but in the clear light of day, it was the Tories themselves who said "Too far..." Kinnochio couldn't remove her, not even with Mr Muscle...

The symbiotic relationship between public and private sector is the only thing that makes modern economics work, at a national level, and either party tinkering too much would be a catastrophe. I, like Bridge, pay my bills with money I made as a private sector bod, but I accept that most of the big contracts our workforce relied on were.. err... public sector contracts. Ironically, I now spend most of my time working for the public sector.

I would not welcome a Tory government with the present incumbents. But to be honest, neither party wants to be seen to stray too much from the centre, and neither party gives me confidence in their abilities.

Why is everybody scared of political dogma when the issue actually facing us is political incompetence?

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Allan Conn
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 06:40 AM

I never understand these people who suggest there couldn't be a Labour govt without Scottish votes. The stats over recent decades show that to be completely incorrect. As I understand it Labour needs 265 English seats to have a majority within England. In 1997 they had 328; in 2001 they had 323; and even in 2005 they had 286. In 1997 and 2001 they also attracted considerably more English voters than the Tories did. The 2001 election saw them retain a majority of English seats with less votes than the Tories got - but even that works both ways. The vagaries of the Westminster voting system means that a majority of Scottish MPs are Labour members but that is gained from a minority of Scottish votes! We all had a chance to change the voting system recently (not perfect but an improvement) and we turned it down. Basically we make our own beds.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 12:56 PM

""Life for those who are not rich is bad under New Labour, but impossible under the conservatives""

Patently absolute nonsense.

You know full well I'm not rich, but I'm getting by and I'm not complaining.

You don't actually have any greater understanding of whaat is meant by "poor" than Prince Charles.

You would need to live it, so stop patting yourself on your self employed and "comfortable" back for being a "well off socialist".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 01:04 PM

Don, I know why you are getting by right now, and I know how you were unable to afford to repair your Scorpio or your Senator (or was it a Carlton?) and I know how you could not afford dentistry and how you did indeed complain about that, and how you (rightly) complained about failures of the NHS, so don't tell so many fibs.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 01:11 PM

Current party breakdown for Scottish MPs - Labour 41, LibDems 11, SNP 6, Tories 1.

A Labour majority without Scotland is of course possible, but it's a big mountain to climb, and a permament one.

Without Scotland we'd be living in a different country, and a new constitutional settlement for that new country would be quite appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Allan Conn
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 04:48 PM

"Current party breakdown for Scottish MPs - Labour 41, LibDems 11, SNP 6, Tories 1. A Labour majority without Scotland is of course possible, but it's a big mountain to climb, and a permament one."

Well from said figures it shows that Scottish Labour only took a majority of 22 seats into Westminster. Quite a small figure when one considers the overall number of Westminster seats which is 650. And whether that Scottish labour majority is there or not more often than not makes not one iota of a difference. As for the big mountain to climb - well it isn't exactly insurmountable. They've managed it in three out of the last four elections! The figures kind of speak for themselves. The normal scenario is that the UK gets the govt that England votes for - sheer demographics ensure that as the vast bulk of UK voters and UK constituencies are English. Anything else is the rare exception rather than the norm! There were several very tight elections about 40 or 50 years where Scottish Labour made the difference but for that to happen it has to be very tight in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 07:37 PM

""I know how you were unable to afford to repair your Scorpio or your Senator (or was it a Carlton?) and I know how you could not afford dentistry and how you did indeed complain about that, and how you (rightly) complained about failures of the NHS""

But of course you also know, but carefully avoid mentioning that all of those complaints were well before May 2010.

Don't try to make propaganda out of LIES! You'll only put yourself in the same category as Mitt the Mutt!

Don't be such a devious prat.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 08:17 PM

"I'm not complaining." Apparently not quite so.

Go on, do tell me which of your pensions or benefits have gone up under the conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Musket
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 03:38 AM

How can Don remember what went up when? The last Conservative government was before Bliar's quasi conservative government. Or do you mean the coalition?

I wish you'd stop confusing us with using words out of context. This is about a conservative government. Earlier in the thread, you acknowledged we don't presently have one.

Keep up old chap...

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 06:16 AM

""Go on, do tell me which of your pensions or benefits have gone up under the conservatives.""

Since 2010,both my state and company pension increases have exceeded inflation. Not by much, but enough that I'm slightly better off in real terms.

Ditto for my wife.

Next question?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 10:23 AM

Have you heard of inflation, Don? Conservatives related state pension to CPI not RPI. To be as well off as before RPI necessary. CPI less. Geddit?

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Musket
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 12:57 PM

Just thinking about Bridge & Don's chat about pensions;

Allowing Bridge's assertion that we have a Tory government...

Actually, my pension fund has gone up. Ok, it went down in late 2008/9, and is still recovering... but that's glorious brother Brown's management for you... A back of the fag packet calculation is that my last statement before the election and my most recent one; I have personally put in £32K, and the fund has, including that, risen by £68K.

Now.. I still reckon they are incompetent, I doubt I could ever vote for the buggers on idealogical grounds and I am lucky enough to know enough to move the fund portfolio around, but still impressive.

Also, with the flat rate state pension coming in, many hundreds of thousands of people who didn't have enough National Insurance history for a full pension will now be getting one.

Ok, that's the Yin. The Yang is that my wife is being asked to contribute more, pay for more years and get back less. And people say public sector pensions are gold plated? Err.. I'll dig my own ditch if that's OK.

On balance, Bridge's assertion is somewhat erroneous, and even if it wasn't, the story would be similar if Labour were allowed to make a Balls of the economy - he has ruled out pension rises in the medium term.

So.. What would be different about "the next Tory government"??? If Tories do something right, it's coincidence, if Labour cock it up, it isn't true Labour eh? Keep banging the rocks together. Me? I'll vote Labour for traditional reasons but not get too excited / upset about the result.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Oct 12 - 08:29 PM

If, Richard, you were half as clever as you think you are, you would have known the following:

Our pension increases are set according to September inflation figures, which happened to be 5% last September, which is what we got in April, when inflation had dropped to less than 3.5% and is above RPI......GEDDIT?

Next April we will receive 2.5% though the Sept figure is 2.2%, because there is a minimum for pensioners of 2.5%, set up by this coalition government.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 09:14 AM

I don't understand. Scottish MPs in Westminster are told to 'butt out' on English questions but are asked to stay so that The UK has a chance for a Labout government.
An independent Scotland will solve this 'West Lothian Question' and allow the English to have a government of their choice. To assume there will always be a majority Conservative government in Westminster is to deny democracy to the English people. .. if the majority is Tory then so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Musket
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 10:12 AM

The statistics don't add up though Jim. Either party could form a majority government without the Scottish seats. Without the Scottish seats, Labour could form a majority with a 4% swing.

No, the issue isn't what Scotland wish, it is the cause and effect and if it were to mean fundamental changes for those left in The UK, we too would need a referendum.

If Salmond were to be correct in his advantages for Scotland, (which I strongly doubt by the way) then that would mean similar disadvantages for England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Therefore, we too would need to be asked. Cameron isn't the brightest spark but he either knows or has been advised that he can negotiate all he wants, but if anybody challenges the outcome, the Supreme Court in Westminster can, at a Judicial Review, strike the result down as not everybody affected took part in the referendum.

I note that batter requires flour and water so it wouldn't take long for sanctions to drag President Salmond back to the table......

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 01:49 PM

A referendum in England as well would of course make sense, alongside the one in Scotland. If and only if both countries voted to retain the union should it continue.

And the same should apply for the other constituents of the current UK.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 05:48 PM

Count the months, Don. Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Allan Conn
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 04:47 AM

"Therefore, we too would need to be asked. Cameron isn't the brightest spark but he either knows or has been advised that he can negotiate all he wants, but if anybody challenges the outcome, the Supreme Court in Westminster can, at a Judicial Review, strike the result down as not everybody affected took part in the referendum"

Would you use the same argument for forcing Northern Ireland to stay in the UK should the nationalists win a future referendum there? The concept of self determination is widely accepted in the modern UK. At least among those who actually matter. Personally I think the NO campaign will win the vote (not personal preference just my thoughts) then there will be a push for devomax. As that does involve a change to the internal workings of the UK, with the Lib Dems going as far as supporting a federal UK, then that could well call for a referendum througout the UK. The danger with that line for unionists of course is (being hypothetical here) what happens if the call for devomax within Scotland gains widespread support but is thwarted because the English electorate opt for the status quo? It again falls straight into the laps of the SNP's long term plans.

As for Cameron's tactics. I think he's been in a no win situation. The Tories are still incredibly unpopular in Scotland. They face a Scottish govt who, although deeply unpopular with their opponents, still have a high backing among the electorate as a whole. Likewise Salmond is detested by many but is still undoubtedly by far the most popular politician in Scotland. Too much intereference from Westminster Tories was never going to be a vote winner and could potentially have been a disaster for the unionists. The strategy seems to be that they know the SNP have a lot of work to do (probably too much of an ask for them)in order to gain enough votes for a YES vote, so make some positive arguments for the union and also hope that the Scottish govt's popularity wanes. All parties make gaffs and mistakes as we've already seen this week.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Musket
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 05:00 AM

Hi Allan,

With the greatest of respect to Ulster, I pointed out that if Salmond is correct, then the rest of the UK relies on income from Scotland. Hence everybody affected would need to vote.

With Ulster, everybody affected includes ROI, but for the life of me, I can't see how Westminster coffers would be adversely affected by a united Ireland, hence my opinion or the opinion of anybody outside of the affected area, ie Ireland, should not affect the outcome.

Mind you, we hear that Scotland is a drain on the rest, we hear the Scotland is totally self sufficient. It would be nice to know which it really is. I mean sustainably...

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Allan Conn
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 06:11 AM

The finance is a different debate to the principle of self determination. The UK as a union is only worth having if constituent parts are members of that union voluntarily - which of course refers to England as well as Scotland. The good thing about politics in Scotland is that it is devoid of extremism and political violence etc. That is because everyone knows it is a demcoratic choice that the people of Scotland have to make. Whatever is decided within Scotland will be accepted by the people of Scotland and the UK govt. There has been no suggestions from anyone of note either in Holyrood or Westminster that Scotland should or could be forced to remain in the union against her will.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 12:34 PM

Sorry mate, I have to take issue with the idea that scotland is devoid of extremism..

Glasgow remains the most sectarian city in The UK. My opinion, based on knowing both cities well, is that it makes Belfast look tolerant in many areas.

I love how Scotland advocates keep saying how much more grown up their politics is yet most yah boo Westminster politicians come from North of the border.

Nobody is forcing anybody to stay in the union. I pointed out that a court may rule that the referendum is flawed which is a different frying pan of Mars Bars.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 02:31 PM

Rewgardless of what any court (or government) in London might do,if Scotland votes for independence, it gets independence. We aren't going to get a replay of what happened in Ireland in 1919.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Allan Conn
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 04:38 AM

"I have to take issue with the idea that scotland is devoid of extremism.."

I never said that Scotland was devoid of extremism. What I said was that politics in Scotland was devoid of extremism. I was of course referring the to the independence debate in particular. There is no-one in the main stream of Scottish politics, or even minor figures of any significance, advocating that the issue should be settled other than by a democratic choice made by the Scottish people. The principle of self determination is solid. As for the sectarian thing then likewise all the main parties are non sectarian!

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 06:38 AM

""Count the months, Don. Idiot.""

Still twelve in any financial year. Twerp.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The next Tory Government
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 11:16 AM

I look at it like this. Turkeys don't vote for Xmas and the good people of Scotland of whom there are a few, aren't going to vote for this.

The public sector in Scotland is huge. Inward investment is woeful and Salmond is a joke in the eyes of most people. His party's popularity is based on self determination rather than their ability to govern.

The free nursing care and prescription la la land may not even be able to stay in place until the referendum. The only reason this idea has any mileage is that the Tories are unionists, hence upsetting them is popular.

I actually agree that politics in Scotland can be seen to be rational. If it is then Salmond will lose the thing and you know what? He didn't want it so soon in the first place. The Tories are more clever than many give them credit for. They pushed him into it!