BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind

Subject: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 02:41 PM

Three days ago, at 11 pm, an explosion occurred in a neighborhood of fine-looking homes in Indianapolis. Two people were killed, some homes will have to be demolished and some have extensive damage. The home that seems to be the source of the explosion had no people in it.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/1113/Indiana-explosion-Area-treated-as-crime-scene-as-investigation-continues

I'm troubled as to how such a thing could happen. A big gas leak in a home that new? Seems most unlikely.

I'm also troubled by the behavior of the press and the public. The home that 'blew' was occupied by a woman, her 12-year-old daughter, and the woman's boyfriend. ("Boyfriend" - there's a loose term for you.) The girl's father says the girl sent him a text last week saying she they were in a hotel because the furnace at the house didn't work.

I'm amazed at the questions the press does NOT address. Where are the mother and boyfriend now? What seemed to be wrong with the furnace? Did they call the gas company? Or a serviceman? Where's the girl? Is she safe? Are they on the lam with her, or just keeping a low, low profile but co-operating with authorities?

I guess what troubles me most is the father's attitude and the general public's acceptance of it. "Sure take my daughter, let an unrelated male move in, haul her to a hotel without telling me, and don't ask anybody for help when something serious goes wrong with her home. (the furnace)"

Thank goodness, at least, the kid could text somebody.

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 03:35 PM

That's thw wonder of gas-fired appliances.

Anyone inhabiting a house with a potential bomb in the cellar should think londg and hard about alternative heat sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 03:54 PM

leeneia, in a way, I think it's good the press aren't rooting for every little scrap of speculative info. It may be the police are keeping a lid on things because it is a criminal investigation.

"Boyfriend" is what my Rog was before we got married 32 yrs ago with my already three children. Quite often a parent's partner is a darn sight more interested in being a decent parent than the actual other parent.

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Nov 12 - 06:47 PM

An expert in one article said that in order for a new home to fill with gas, four safeties would have to go wrong. Not likely.

It might not have been the furnace, it might have been a gas line that caused the problem.

It bothers me that the press doesn't seem to have the simple humanity to ask, "Do you know where the girl is? Is she safe?"

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: beeliner
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 01:02 AM

A gun nut loading his own ammo?

"The family that loads together explodes together."

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 02:43 AM

Unless your gun nut was loading ammo for something like this there's no way anyone would have enough powder on hand to produce the explosion that happened in Indy. A single pound of the powder handloaders use would load a thousand rounds of anything that anyone would be likely to use, and for their own safety no sane loader would have more than a couple of pounds anywhere in a single place.

The most likely cause probably is a gas leak. The homes were very large, and if the family was all away the one that blew was probably fairly tightly closed up. While a gas furnace might have "four safeties" that would have to fail if the furnace was properly installed and in good shape, blowing out the pilot light on a gas cooking range could accumulate a fairly large amount of gas in a day or so. Any leak in any pipe could do the same. No indication was given as to how long the family was gone, at least that I've seen.

In order for enough gas to accumulate for the blast that occured, the house would have needed to be closed tightly enough that little would have leaked outside, and adjacent houses were well separated, so the cited fact that there was no "gas smell" isn't definitive.

If a "criminal act" is involved, it's most likely someone just opened a valve, or broke a pipe, and walked off. Eventually it would blow.

Any explosive material other than natural gas capable of the damage seen in the photos would leave chemical traces that the ATF boys would have detectors to identify within the first half hour of arriving at the scene - even if it took them a week to get there.

Of course that's just speculation - (by a US Army trained ammunition officer, if that's of significance).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 03:24 AM

I don't know about US practice but here in the UK gas cookers do not usually have a "pilot light". Gas is ignited in or on the cooker with a n electrical spark. Further, if a heating element is (say) blown out a flame failure device (see below) shuts off the gas.

Central heating boilers do have pilot lights, but again there is a flame failure device. A thermocouple is right by the pilot light. The thermocouple has to produce a signal to hold open the gas solenoid. No pilot light, no signal from the thermocouple, so no gas. If the thermocouple fails, likewise no gas.

I had a US made swimming pool boiler for a while, and that had a gas pressure sensor too - too much or too little gas pressure and the gas would stay off - and also a temperature differential sensor (too little or too great a temperature differential between the temperature of water coming into the flame bed and leaving it) - same outcome.

A gas explosion is far more likely to result from a leak at the gas meter (relatively common - anedotally I'd say one hears of maybe one every year or couple of years) usually caused by someone trying to bypass the meter and get free gas. One idiot I remember was reported to have used a bicycle inner tube for the job and it blew up like a balloon and then went pop.

The bayonet connector for a cooker might fail, but they are fairly moronproof. The other end of the tough old flexi that goes to the cooker depends on a sealing paste to seal two plates together but here in the UK it is illegal to fit one such unless you are a registered gas fitter, so DIY in the area is uncommon.

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 03:27 AM

Faux news discusses the event here

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/11/13/investigators-looking-at-appliances-as-possible-cause-deadly-indianapolis/

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 05:52 AM

The current practice in the US is that gas appliances generally have an "igniter," and it must light a "starter" or pilot flame, the starter flame must heat a thermocouple sensor within a limited time before the main gas turns on, and on the better ones the starter flame is cut off if it doesn't light. IF EVERYTHING is installed right, heating furnaces with these features are very safe.

Hot water heaters still sometimes use a pilot light, also with a heat sensor that has to show that the pilot flame is present before the main burner can turn on, and both will turn off if the thermocouple doesn't sense a flame. With most of these it's necessary to hold an override valve open to light the pilot and until flame heat is sensed. If the override is released prematurely all the gas is shut off, but once lit the pilot burns continuously as long as there's "flame heat" at the sensor.

There are still a number of gas cook stoves that use a constantly burning pilot flame for ignition of the top burners in use, although more recent ones will shut off all the gas, including the pilot gas, if the flame goes out. Whether this is reliable may depend on how much grease has been spilled into the stove top(?). Some older stoves still required manual lighting of an oven pilot for either oven or broiler, at each use, and everything shuts off when the oven is turned off. Newer stoves most likely have electronic/piezo igniters, but we haven't been in a house piped for cookstove gas recently enough to have much info on recent practice.

A leak large enough to cause the damage shown in photos would almost certainly indicate an improper installation of gas lines or appliances, or a deliberate tampering with the installation (not necessarily with the intent to cause an explosion), but the air volume in a house the size of the surrounding ones shown in news photos would be more than sufficient to capture enough (leaked) gas to cause an explosion of the size shown.

"Famous gas explosions" in family history include the total destruction of the Trailways Maintenance Shop at Kip Kansas (while a backdoor relative worked there) that completely removed a shop large enough to accomodate almost a dozen Trailways buses for similtaneous maintenance, with the source being a single tank holding about only about 160 cubic feet of gas, but that was "acetylene" (ethylene) from a welding gas generator which is a lot more agressive than natural gas.

A natural gas leak at Pretty Prairie Kansas pretty completely destroyed at least five buildings on the main drag ca 1938(?) when the dry cleaning shop blew. The shop was about the same size as the 2-chair barber shop next door (<3,000 cubic feet?), so wasn't remotely as large as the size of houses shown in the Indy neighborhood.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 10:04 AM

Thanks for the info, John and John.

When I got my new gas stove, I deliberately got the kind without an electric pilot light so that we could continue to cook when there's a power outage. You're not supposed to use the oven to heat the kitchen, but nothing says you can't roast a turkey on a cold day.

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 10:29 AM

Another danger with natural gas and homes or businesses: Light switches for example are not intrinsically safe, meaning that the act of switching on a light can 'spark' an explosion. If gas has built up in the basement and someone flicks the light on, there is a good chance the whole thing will go boom. (By memory--and it's an old memory, so check the following before depending on it--I think the danger zone for natural gas concentration (methane) is from 5% to 15%. If the concentration as a percent of room volume is below 5% or above 15%, there will likely be no boom. However, methane will displace oxygen and thus suffocate an individual who is not wearing breathing apparatus. If you suspect a natural gas leak, stay the heck out. Let firefighters deal with it. Inevitably, we called the gas company to shut off gas to that house/area and to double check our instrument readings.

When you call 911, do so from someone else's house. Phones and radios aren't necessarily intrinsically safe and the act of alerting the emergency personnel could itself set off the explosion you feared in the first place. Things of that nature have to be turned off before entering the area. Someone calling a spouse at the wrong time could be collecting on the department insurance policy shortly thereafter.

John has pointed out a few times that there is a rotten egg odour added to natural gas to alert people to gas leaks. However, someone with a bad cold or diminished olfactory sense may not notice.

A few fires I was on involved natural gas. As a general rule, if a line was burning, we would make no attempt to extinguish the flame. The reason was that if we could see the flame we knew where the gas was, and better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

Gas companies are excellent in terms of sending qualified people to check for leaks or safety hazards. A call to your gas company is step one, preferably before anything explodes.

Natural gas can be extremely dangerous. It's nothing to guess about or take risks with. Another thing that may be useful. Find out where your outside cutoff is. With houses, you will find piping that has a valve which can be turned by hand or a wrench. This picture shows what to look for.

Notice that as with MOST valves--unless someone screwed up the installation--when the valve thingy that you turn is inline with the pipe, the valve is open and gas, water, etc can flow. If the valve thingy is at 90 degrees to the line, the valve is closed and whatever is not running through that line. The valve is only completely closed when it is at 90 degrees to the pipe and/or when it won't turn anymore. Do NOT over torque the wrench. Break the valve and you got big problems, real fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 10:40 AM

I saw on a reliable news site that the owner of the house, Monserrate Whomever, has been interviewed. (She seemed to be in a private home, presumably a relative's.) So if they know where she is, presumably they know where the young daughter is.

There's on possibility that hasn't been mentioned - methane from underground coal. I looked at a map of coal mining in Indiana, but it doesn't seem likely at all. Nonetheless it would be worth it to ask a geologist about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 11:40 AM

Sometimes new homes are built on old garbage dumps. That's another source of methane.

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 12:43 PM

That is true... They are supposed to be vented but we know that things are not always done correctly...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: GUEST,999
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 04:43 PM

Bobert, at present there is the Charbonneau Commission which is investigating corruption in the construction industry of Quebec. Kickbacks, contracts coming in way above the agreed upon cost, influence peddling, etc. It's not like corruption in the industry hasn't been known about here. Hell, every man/woman on the street has been aware of it for at least 40 years. Anyway, at last there is an attempt to deal with the problem. It has already caused Montreal's Mayor to resign, and the Commission's scope will also look into political campaign financing. It's big, and there will I expect be some vertical trips down the river for some who have testified. Indeed, things are not always done correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 05:03 PM

methane from underground coal

Or Klingon disrupter fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:10 PM

The more I think about what happened, the more I suspect (but do not claim to know) that this was a case of arson gone hideously wrong. We'll just have to see.

But also, what I'm trying to say is "How can people be content with the specious coverage we see here?" There are so many unanswered questions. For me, the big question is "Where is the twelve-year-old daughter?" I guess she's all right, otherwise her father would be kicking up a storm. But it sure would be nice if reporters showed a little concern. Do people who have spent thousands of hours staring at one screen or another lose their human emotions?

I'm sensitive to this right now because our town lost a ten-year-old last month. Jessica Ridgeway of Golden CO was the daughter of a divorced man from here. She'd come here on visits and play with kids in the neighborhood. She was abducted and horribly murdered (apparently) by a 17-year old. (Do some more drugs, kid!)

Subject: RE: BS: Indianapolis explosion on my mind
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 12 - 06:32 PM

Been down at the pub, have you? Two people are dead, Greg. Others have lost their homes. Get real.

What the hell's that supposed to mean? Or are you comfortable ascribing this horrible tragedy to nonsensical causes with absolutely no factual basis???