Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?

Subject: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 06:40 AM

I'm working on the songs Ralph Vaughan Williams noted in King's Lynn, Norfolk, UK, in 1905 and cannot find lyrics for several titles despite extensive research. Can anyone help please?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 04:10 PM

Again, Alan, this is very unlikely to be the first line of of a song for obvious reasons, but unlike Flora and Betsy, Nancy is as common as muck so you have a lot of searching to do. Apart from broadside ballads, Nancy was also very popular with the Music Hall writers. It would narrow things down if you could at least give the time signature. Some of the Music Hall Nancies are in jig time.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 04:14 PM

I'll add whilst searching it might help to know that in these amorous songs 'Nancy' is usually preceded by 'Lovely', 'Beautiful', 'Sweet Lovely', 'Charming' and the like.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Nov 12 - 05:29 PM

Checked out most of the Nancies in English oral tradition with no luck and not any of the broadsides I have copies of. Music hall is looking more likely though it's not 'Where is my Nancy?' one of the most popular. Of course personal names in songs can be almost as changeable as dates.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 04:38 PM

I've just come back to this song. The Roud index has no entry for Come Nancy Will You Marry Me - not at all, let alone collected by RVW.

There are, however, entries for Henry and Nancy, whose first line is Pretty Nancy will you wed. (This is the only song with Nancy will in either the title or the first line, apart from 3 others, which have Nancy will you come to be to me or similar and Oh what words dear Nancy will prevail).

The Henry and Nancy, with first line Pretty Nancy Will You Wed can be found in:

Baring-Gould Broadside Collection Vol.1.2, No.57

and broadsides in the Madden Collections, published by Pitts, Catnach, and Quick.

I've had a quick look at the Bodleian and the BBBA and can't see any copy of this. Maybe Steve can help?


Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 04:52 PM

Last was me. Cookie not recognised and took several logins to get it back (had to use the logout feature first to get it back).

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 06:33 PM

This is actually a trad song in the Sharp Mss and it's also in Sharp/Karpeles (Vol 1, p501) so it's a good candidate.

Here's the Catnach broadside in Madden.

It's in dialogue form so likely from a musical play or burletta.

Henry: Pretty Nancy will you wed?
       Tell me dearest Nancy,
      None but you I have always said
       I could ever fancy.
             Sing fal de ral, &c.

Nancy: Till I find a faithful youth,
         I'll ne'er married be, sir
       Therefore, you devoid of truth
         Have no right to me sir.

H: Why of falsehood cruel maid,
    Do you thus accuse me,
   I never thought by what you said
    You could e'er refuse me.

N: Sir, I've heard and think it true,
    That you are a rover,
   If so. I all thoughts of you,
    Quickly must give over.

H: False it is but we must part
    Spite of wind or weather,
    Think not Miss,'twill break my heart,
    I care not a feather.

N: Dearest Henry make me blest,
    Pardon your dear Nancy,
   What I said was all in jest
    Just to please my fancy.

H: Do you love me prithee say
N: Yes! now banish sorrow,
H: When shall be our wedding day
N: (hesitating)Why Henry dear tomorrow
Both: Sing fal, &c. we will wed to-morrow.

(They only partially gave the refrain as the song was currently popular and everyone would know it.)

Here's Sharp/Karpeles.
Version A sung by Mr Hoskyns, Rackenford, Devonshire, 13 Sept 1904.

1. Pretty Miss will you wed?
Tell me, my dear Nancy
You're the girl I always said
That would please my fancy
   With my fal le dal de li di o,
fal de dal de die.

2 Sir, I've heard them think it true
that you are a rover,
If so be the thought of you
Quickly I'll give over.

3 False it is and we must part
in spite of wind and weather.
Think now, miss, to break my heart
For I can get another.

4 Stay, dear Henry, it makes me blush,
Pardon thy dear Nancy.
What I've said I will in just (jest?)
Just to please your fancy.

5 Canst thou love me?
......................
When shall be our wedding day?
Why I think tomorrow.

Version B sung by Wm. Lockyer (87) at Middlezoy, Somerset, 15 Aug 1906.

O pretty maid, will you wed?
Tell me, dearest Nancy
There's none but you I've often said
That ever i could fancy
fal lal la, fal lal la,
Fal the diddle and the diddle and the dido, o.

I could easily post the tunes as they are very simple, but not in standard ABC, but Mick will easily convert. Actually I could scan and send the tunes to Mick or you, Alan.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 06:53 PM

Thanks for posting those Steve. There were plenty of versions of Henry and Nancy but I couldn't find one with the Pretty Nancy will you wed first line, which was close to Alan's requested song.

I've got the Sharp versions so I'll put the abc up for those and Alan can see if there's any similarity to the tune he has.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 07:17 PM

Here are the tunes from Sharp.

Mick

---

X:1
T:Pretty Miss Will You Wed
B: Cecil Sharp's Collection of English Folk Songs ed Karpeles
S: Sung by William Lockyer (87) at Middlezoy, Somerset, 15 August 1906
L:1/4
M:4/4
K:G
G G (G D)|G A B2|
w:Pret-ty Miss,_ will you wed?
c B A G|(F A) D2|
w:Tell me, my dear Nan_cy.
G G G D|G A B2|
w:You're the girl I al-ways said
c> B A G|G Hd
w:That would please my fan-cy.
d> c|B> GA> G|F D D2
w:With my fal le dal de li-di O,
B> G A> F| G3 z|]
w:fal de dal de die.

X:2
T:Pretty Miss Will You Wed
B: Cecil Sharp's Collection of English Folk Songs ed Karpeles
S: Sung by Mr.Hoskyns at Rackenford, Devonshire, 13 September 1904
L:1/4
M:4/4
K:G
(d/c/)|B G (G D)|G A B2|
w:O_ pret-ty maid,_ will you wed?
c A A G|(F G) A
w:Tell me, dear-est Nan_cy.
(d/c/)|B G G D|G A B>
w:There's_ none but you I've of-ten said
B|c A A G|(F D) D2|
w:That e-ver I could fan_cy.
B d d2| c e e2|
w:Fal lal la, fal lal la,
[M:3/2][L:1/8]g3 e dcBA GFGA|[M:4/4][L:1/4]B G G|]
w:Fal the did-dle and the did-dle and the di-do, O.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 10:51 AM

Good teamwork, Mick.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 04:12 PM

Steve

See - the internet can be a force for good! I don't know how so many people manage to make problems with it.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:33 PM

Posted also in the 'Captain Markee' thread in error.

X:1
T:Come Nancy will you marry me?
C:Trad
M:C
L:8
K:D
A,2|D3FD2|F2A2d2c2|B2A2F2D2|E6A,2|D3EFED2|F2A2d2b2|A2d2F2AF|E4D2A,2|
D3EFED2|F2A2d4|dcBAF2E2|F2D2B,2A,2|D3EFED2|F2A2d2B2|A3FD2F2|E4D2||

Be gentle with me - it's my first attempt.
Anybody recognise it?
Alan

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 11:40 AM

As I've had no response to my last post, I'll try the abc notation again and add what clues there are on the MS. I'm still without words for this and would appreciate any help.

X:1
T:Come Nancy, Will You Marry Me?
M:C
L:8
K:D
A,2 | D3 E FE D2 | F2 A2 d2 c2 | B2 A2 F2 D2 | E4
A,2 | D3 E FE D2 | F2 A2 d2 b2 | A2 d2 F2 AF | E4
A,2 | D3 E FE D2 | F2 A2 d4 | dcBA F2 E2 | F2 D2 B,2
A,2 | D3 E FE D2 | F2 A2 d2 B2 | A3 F D2 F2 | E4 D2 ||

The metre is thus 86 86 86 86(or 87), of which half or quarter could obviously be chorus or refrain.

But the way it's laid out on the page, and with the alternative bars he's written, it could be slightly shorter, and irregular in verse length:

"Verse 1"
A,2 | D3 E FE D2 | F2 A2 d2 c2 | B2 A2 F2 D2 | E4
A,2 | D3 E FE D2 | F2 A2 d2 b2 | A2 d2 F2 AF | E4
A,2 | D3 E FE D2 | F2 A2 d4 | dcBA F2 E2 | F2 D2 B,2
A,2 | D3 E F2 D2 | E4 D2 ||

"other verses"
A,2 | D3 E FE D2 | F2 A2 d2 c2 | B2 A2 F2 D2 | E4
A,2 | D3 E FE D2 | F2 A2 d2 B2 | A2 d2 F2 AF | E4
A,2 | D3 E FE D2 | F2 A2 d2 B2 | A3 F2 D2 F2 | E4 D2 ||

RVW has written at the top "Unknown name" I think, and in another hand is "[Come Nancy will you marry me] in index"

RVW also writes "(1) By B Jackson at the level crossing" - I think.

And at the bottom, under an alternative bar he writes:
A,2 | D3 E FE D2 FE D2 |
"Come Nancy will you marry me"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 12:53 PM

Alan, I'm sure you already know this, but the clause

"Come Nancy will you marry me?" with or without the question mark shows up only on one internet site, and this is it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 01:06 PM

Guest 999,
If you mean putting 'Come Nancy will you marry me' into the 'Lyrics and knowledge Search Box' produces a result then something's odd as that was the first thing I tried, and I've just done it again -
No Results every time.
Am I missing something?
Alan

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 01:15 PM

Alan - he means that if you do an internet search for it the only results are the request postings here.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 01:20 PM

My mistake. Thank you, Mick.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 12:08 PM

Hi Mick & Steve, as you can see none of the tunes or word sets fit the RVW tune.
I've searched in Bodleian too. Are there any other broadside sites (addresses please) I should search?
As I say elsewhere I'm down to two songs now, thanks largely to you and others on Helpful Mudcat; 'Come Nancy' and 'I went to Betsy', and I'm very pleased with progress.
Cheers ~ Alan

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 Dec 12 - 12:40 PM

Here are some of the sites in my Folk Essential category:

UCSB - English Broadside Ballad Archive (I tend to find the advanced search more useful than the simple one there)

American Memory - LOC

Duke - Historic American Sheet Music - often helpful for later songs

Johns Hopkins - Levy Sheet Music Archive - for sheet music of popular songs that were often taken up widely.

EFDSS - Take 6 mss from 6 major collectors in England

The British Library Catalogue - always worth a look if none of the obvious sites gives you anything.

And one I use less often (though Joe often puts references from it in discussions)

The Traditional Ballad Index. cites sources and earliest records of songs. (not always accurate).


I tried a few more things for Nancy but came up with nothing useful: Joyce had a song called Kitty Will You Marry Me, with first line Oh, Kitty will you marry me?, but the tune looks nothing like the RVW one (1v only: Oh, Kitty will you marry me, or Kitty I will die/Then Kitty you'll be fretting for your loving little boy/Oh Kitty can't you tell me eill you marry me at all/Or else I'll surely go to sleep inside the churchyard wall). The RVW tune reminds me a lot of The Minstrel Boy, so I had a look at broadsides using that tune, but nothing likely turned up).

There are less than 2000 entries in Roud for Nancy in first line/title, and many can probably be discounted as obviously not correct eg Here's Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy), so it would be possible to check for likey sources there. Alternatively the phrase will you marry me occurs even less frequently and they could be checked manually.

I haven't looked at Besty since I trawled through my last list of Betsy songs without likely candidates, but I may look again.

Glad the search appears to be proving mostly fruitful anyway.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Come Nancy, will you marry me?
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 12 Dec 12 - 03:50 PM

Thanks a lot Mick. I had a trawl but the net came up empty every time. A friend's suggestion was that it sounds like a rather twee Victorian drawing-room concoction, but I've tried some song books I have with no luck either.
This could be the one that got away!
Cheers ~ Alan