BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold

Subject: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 09:57 PM

By 138 votes to nine to be precise. OK, I know Hamas were scornful of the Abbas wheeze, but what fun to see Israel and the US, and yes lackey Canada too in this instance, so hopping mad! There is comfort for the naysayers, however, in the knowledge that Micronesia and the Marshall Islands etc are right behind them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:05 PM

This is the only path toward making everyone safer in the region...

The US and Israel are acting out out of old-school thinking and not willing to move into the new century...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: gnu
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:20 PM

Lackey Canada? WTF? Please don't tell me you think we take our marching orders from the US. We take our marching orders from Her Majesty and so does the US. Her Majesty abstained from the vote. Her minions do what they are told to do. Nothing more or less.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:52 PM

I was thinking of this, gnu:

Palestine votes NO and threatens retaliation

Sometimes it's not quite clear to me whether it is the US or Israel from which Canada takes its orders. (The UK bravely thumbed its nose at the US this once, and registered a timid abstention.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 10:56 PM

Oh... apologies. I'm not sure what I did there. Let me try again....

Palestine votes NO and threatens retaliation

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: gnu
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:08 PM

Link no work, Peter.

The US or Israel? Neither. Canada marches where their owners tell them to march. The same for the owners of the US. Do so many not know who owns Canada and the US? Goodness me! Ya think the Brits really ever gave up FINANCIAL contol of either?

I dunno why I have to keep trying to get this point across. The US and Canada and at least 25 other nations on earth do what Her Majesty says they will do because she OWNS them. If you don't believe it, trace the corporations that OWN land and HUGE companies in over 50 countries. It ain't rocket science. When BP says we need to blow the shit of of Libya, guess what happens. ROCKET SCIENCE!

As far as Canada being such a shit about the vote, it pisses me off but it DOES NOT surprise me.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:12 PM

"It is a tragedy to think that if the Arab leadership had not rejected the UN partition resolution at the time – and launched a war against the nascent Jewish state – we would today be commemorating the 65th anniversary of two states for two peoples, without the pain and suffering of the last 65 years."

Today could have been Palestine's 65th birthday

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: mg
Date: 29 Nov 12 - 11:49 PM

Good.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 12:13 AM

First time in history that Palestine gets to be a state or a nation or anything legal according to what I grew up calling the white man's papers (well, papiers de blanc). Wow. Bully for the UN.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 05:05 AM

Great news.
But shame on the UK for feebly abstaining but what more can we expect from the likes of William Haig.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 05:56 AM

I attach a transcript of Arafat's 1974 speech to the UN. I recommend the introduction be skipped, as it may not do the speech justice.


Arafat speech to UN_1974

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 06:28 AM

I was at a political forum tonight. A friend said it is being suggested that US ambassadors around the world did not strongly (emphasis on strongly) advocate for a "yes' vote over this issue, as a payback by Obama for Netahanyu openly supporting Romney during the recent presidential campaign.

I guess it's hard when a supposed ally speaks out against you in a re-election campaign. Netahanyu is coming under strong criticism in Israel for messing up the relationship with the States.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: kendall
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 07:14 AM

When the UN took a huge chunk of Arab land and gave it to their worst enemy, they set in motion a fight that has lasted 65 years. Enough! They both deserve to have their own country. Make no mistake, I stand behind Israel,for the sake of justice, and I stand behind the Arabs for equal justice.
We need to get our nose out of other people's business.We can no longer afford it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 07:19 AM

"huge chunk" compared to what?
It is tiny, and lost in the vastness of Arab land.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 07:20 AM

He's more than messed up the relationship with the States Freda. He's messed up the relationship with the Jewish lobby in the States.

I'm bemused by your other point. Was your friend implying that some US ambassadors might have been advocating support for Palestinian accession to observer status, albeit not strongly?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: freda underhill
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 07:45 AM

Peter, he was implying that the US deliberately didn't try too hard on Israel's behalf on this one.

Kendall, you said it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:13 AM

Maybe tiny in relation to the total Arab land in the same way that, say, Andorra is tiny in realtion to European land; however, it is cerainly not tiny in relation to what was Palestine. And illegally still growing.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:37 AM

I note that Hillary is huffing and puffing (only because she can feel the hot breath of AIPAC on her neck, of course). Nothing is going to change. A two-state solution is belly-up now. In fact, any solution is impossible because the unconditional military aid that Israel receives from the US immunises them from having to talk peace (which would mean compromises, which Israel famously does not make, and never will unless forced). Israel's leaders want the best West Bank land and water far too much for that. The easy route for Netanyahu et al. is to declare that Hamas are terrorists, the US agrees, we don't talk to terrorists, so, end of.

Who was it who said that there's no point just talking to your friends. You have to talk to your enemies. It might or might not have been Ian Paisley. Or Gerry Adams. Or Margaret Thatcher. Whoever it was, I don't think it was an Israeli politician.

And, in matters of principle, Keith, it doesn't matter how "tiny" you think it is, does it? How would you like it if Iran annexed the Isle of Wight?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:44 AM

So, is it accurately described as a huge chunk of Arab land, or even of Palestine?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:50 AM

Stick to the bloody point just for once.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:54 AM

Sorry.
Just asking Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 09:02 AM

"huge chunk" compared to what?
It is tiny, and lost in the vastness of Arab land.

England is a small chunk of European land. Lets give them that instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 09:34 AM

Britain did not set up a Jewish homeland Jim, but small as we are Jewish refugees fled to Britain before the outbreak of war in 1939 to escape Hitler from Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia. They were the first sizable group of refugees in the successive waves of immigration that flowed into Britain from the middle decades of the last century. By 1939, Britain was playing host to over 60,000 some 50,000 of whom settled permanently. They were joined after 1945 by a smaller group of Jews who had survived the Holocaust in Europe.

And the Kindertransport was a unique humanitarian programme which ran between November 1938 and September 1939. Approximately 10,000 children, the majority of whom were Jewish, were sent from their homes and families in Austria, Germany, Czechoslovakia and Poland to Great Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 09:39 AM

Sorry, that was for Jack, not Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 10:10 AM

"""huge chunk" compared to what?
It is tiny, and lost in the vastness of Arab land.""

So you would raise no objection at all if the electricity board came along and snatched a chunk of your garden for a transformer compound?

It's entirely immaterial what size chunk is stolen from you, you have a right to object.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 10:18 AM

You have all convinced me.
Israel has no right to exist.
What shall we do about it?
What shall we do with those 6 million Jews.
Any previous experience we could draw on?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 10:19 AM

And the larger number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations after 1948 DON"T have ANY rights at all, especially not the right to live without random antipersonnel rockets being aimed at them, Don T.?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 10:37 AM

To be honest, Keith, you deserve to be ignored from now on following that stupid and offensive post.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 12:26 PM

Where did Don say that Beardie? Or are you just being an ass?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 12:32 PM

I can't believe that no-one has made this juxtaposition: -

UN recognition of Palestine

Israel's response

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 12:54 PM

Good. And about time.

gnu - Your comments about the UK's financial control of Canada and America are interesting, and I think you might be right. London is still the real financial centre of the western world, just like it always has been, and the British Crown is at the helm. It was also in the UK that the Zionist movement was historically nurtured and set in motion, correct? Another interesting factor. What if they had chosen a piece of Brazil, Argentina, India, China or Mexico upon which to build a future Jewish state? What would the reaction of the local people have been to that? Not a very friendly one, I'm guessing! But, hey, the Middle East has Biblical connections...and it's full of oil too. That coincided with the vital strategic interests of a British Empire that desperately needed the oil...but was clearly approaching the end of the great colonial era when it could just rule places like Iraq or Iran by a British military presence and colonial administration. Something had to be done to secure a permanent and powerful foothold in the region for the UK and to keep Russia (and someday China) out. Israel is the West's nuclear-armed policeman to dominate that whole region by the iron fist of military force, and they've been doing their job faithfully ever since 1948....or else the West is their policeman. Sometimes it's a little hard to tell if the dog is wagging the tail or the tail is wagging the dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 01:04 PM

The situation of an - imposed by armed force - Western Jewish colony established in a predominantly Islamic part of the Middle-East a number of decades ago, is just the same as the Protestant colony set up in what was Catholic Northern Ireland several hundred years ago.

While they may initially serve a divisive political purpose, plantations simply don't work for PEOPLE or politics, in the long run. Northern Ireland aught to have taught us that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 01:06 PM

tiny but had ports and access to sea.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 01:20 PM

Can't get the second link to work RB, but I did read today that following the UN acceptance of Palestine as an 'observer status' nation, Israeli govt. gave it's blessing to 3000 new builds for European and American settlers in the West Bank. Sometimes I believe that the only think that could calm this increasingly dangerous situation down is the economic collapse of the US. The end of US military billions and Israel would have to wind it's pugalistic neck in. No Israel and US storming about pissing off Arabs in the Middle East, and the rest of the world can chill out for a bit.. Bring on the death of Western Capitalist economies, it can't happen quick enough for everyone's future grandchildren's chance of surviving.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 02:05 PM

Canada has allowed the U.S. to influence them on foreign policy since the governing administration has become considerably more Right-Wing than earlier.

The rest of the world knows what's going on and there are a few countries with vested interest in Israel's war-making industry that are balking at the UN decision.

There can be no rational negotiations between just Israel and Palestine and the US is not an honest broker. The UN is the only hope for a peaceful settlement but Israel doesn't really want this. They want to expand at Palestinian expense.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 02:10 PM

The problem-solving has to start in the US. There is so much wrong. Media that so overwhelmingly belong to Israel that the American people hear only one side. Israel lobby groups, led by AIPAC, which have a thoroughly undemocratic stranglehold (in the Land Of The Free!) on all politicians. Military financial aid to Israel that is unconditional. A US that is serially complicit in the trickery which has been the only substance of the bogus talks of recent years. A US that is complicit in the utterly useless stance that Hamas are terrorists, we don't talk to terrorists, so we don't talk. It matters not a bloody jot whether that is true or not. One day Hamas will have to be brought to the table whether Israel and the US like it or not. There is no-one else to talk to fer chrissake. The IRA had to be talked to at the height of their anti-British posturing. They were brought to the table and look what we have now. Not perfect but a damn sight better than before and a damn sight fewer people's lives being ruined, yet no-one's "charter" has been scrapped (listening, Keith 'n' Bobad??) If ever there was a good time for politicos' heads to be banged together, it's right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 03:13 PM

"Media that so overwhelmingly belong to Israel that the American people hear only one side."

The stranglehold of exclusively pro-Israel MSM is now breaking with the huge impact that more democratic 'alternative media' is currently having. Hilary Clinton not so long ago bemoaned the fact that the US were "losing the information war". The internet snuck up on 'em like a err freedom fighter in the night, and the big corporations, lumbering giants that they are, have yet to mobilise themselves to respond effectively to the liberating impact alt. media has had across the world. Even the comments in the daily mail (I often check out the comments sections of different newspapers to see where the groundswell of popular opinion amongst the readership lies) were overwhelmingly supportive of the move. Which I feel is telling. There remain strongholds of popular right-wing pro-Israel sentiment of course, but those places are increasingly out on a lonely limb, like in Canada for example, as well as Israel itself of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: kendall
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:25 PM

Keith, have you ever read the "Balfour Declaration?

Terrorists? let's not forget that George Washington was a terrorist to England's George the third. It's all a matter of where you stand.

When Israel said, "Never again", they meant it, and I don't blame them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:26 PM

I hope you're right. Certainly, there are respects in which social networking and greater access to media world-wide can be beneficial. Even the Chinese struggle to keep us all out. There is still the need for many people to have to actively search for balanced reporting, and an awful lot of people simply don't have the motivation to do so and are happy to settle for what they are force-fed (note, for example, the fact that 40% of yanks believe that evolution is false). I must say that the UK is still very poor in this regard apropos of the middle east, and the level of debate on tonight's Any Questions almost made me bloody weep, to be honest.

It is also depressing to note that Israel's government, cynically as ever, chose today to announce another 3,000 homes planned in illegal settlements. I recall them doing a similar thing when Obama was in Jerusalem on his state visit. Posturing of that sort speaks volumes about their lack of interest in any meaningful peace process. We are a million miles away from peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:27 PM

Sorry, that was a response to CS.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:37 PM

"When Israel said, "Never again", they meant it, and I don't blame them. "

I wish they had meant "Never again" for everyone and not just for Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:57 PM

"I wish they had meant "Never again" for everyone and not just for Jews."

Amen to that. The sad irony of course is that due to the actions of the Israeli government in relation to the Palestinians, Israel is fast becoming one of the world's least liked or trusted states and that has a negative knock-on effect to Jews (both of Israeli and international origin) who may oppose the actions of the Israeli state as vigorously as the next man. Increasingly I see barely veiled anti-Semitic sentiment expressed in numerous corners of the web. The damaging PR that Israel's actions are continuing to cause, is of real and understandable concern to many Jews. People are all "holocausted out" (to borrow a phrase I heard a while back) and no amount of referencing the tragedies of the past can continue to justify the crimes of the present. Those old cynical diversionary strategies are no longer working. Unless Israel wants to find itself in the very place it fears the most, it needs to stop playing the brat and start honest discussions with it's neighbours. There will come a time when it's Western sponsors will tire of it, no longer be able to fund it, or it will outwear it's usefulness as a strategic satellite. It would be better for all, and for Jews especially, if it started figuring that out sooner rather than later.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 04:57 PM

Yes, CS and RB, Israel's immediate response was to authorise 3,000 more houses in occupied territory, and not just any ocupied territory but territory chosen to thwart any remaining prospect for a contiguous Palestinian state.

Little Hawk, it may have been the UK that gave the world the Balfour declaration, but even that far back it was the US that was pulling the strings. Britain was at that time (1917) desperate for financial support from wealthy Jewish interests, most of which were in the States, and from the US admin. (Wilson's two closest buddies were virulent Zionists.)

I am not against an Israeli state; I go along with what Kendall said. But I am against any Jewish state, and indeed against theocracies of any kind. I am also against any state that tramples on human rights and international law in the way that Israel does persistently. This puts me in the company of many Jews in the US who hold similar views. It is too easy to assume American Jews are all extremist Zionists of Keith-like mentality, ready to exploit the holocaust at every opportunity.

Even if Keith's entire family died in Belsen it would not excuse his using the Nazi atrocities to justify today's horrors. Watch this stunning three minutes Keith, and pay attention: it's aimed straight at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 05:09 PM

Stringsinger... "Canada has allowed the U.S. to influence them on foreign policy since the governing administration has become considerably more Right-Wing than earlier."

Huh? Read my post above. LH did and, with his subsequent post, it's the first time someone gave my postulate credence AT ALL. You read about the Irish situation above and what that post means? It's simple history... it's simply "why" this shit happens. $ & who has those $.

Anyone who thinks it's anything else and anyone who thinks the Yanks or the Canucks do not take their marching orders from "she who wears the crown" (yes, she IS a figurehead) is not open to what I believe is the way it is.

$ rules. Don't matter WHO represents the $. The Kings and Queens of England or Spain or Denmark or East Overshoe, New Brunswick or the Pope or the Shaw or the whoever. The corporations that ruled the US and Canada before their independence still rule them. They are owned by Brits. The Brits tell the Yanks and the Canucks what to do, when to do it and how to do it. Simply, the US does not influence Canada unless Beth says it does because she represents the $ that own their asses.

It really is that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 07:19 PM

A really good, measured post, Peter. :-

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:12 PM

Doesn't anybody here read carefully?

"welcomed"

As a non-member observer state.

Yes, it's an upgrade.

However, "welcomed into the UN fold" is just what you'd expect on Mudcat, the motherlode of hyperbole.   Just a tiny bit of exaggeration.

Let's see what happens now.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:16 PM

Not only that Peter, it puts you in the company of many Jews in ISRAEL who hold similar views.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:27 PM

A dissenting voice to counter the groupthink on display here. The author is a former Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada who is a an expert on international law and human rights law.

"declarations opposing the Palestinian unilateral bid for observer-state status can be said to be anchored in a series of foundational principles and related precedents of international law, including:

First, such a unilateral Palestinian resolution would undermine existing and accepted international frameworks for peace, such as UN Security Council resolutions 242, 338, and 1850; the Roadmap for Peace; and various statements by the Quartet (the UN, the U.S., the European Union and Russia), all of which call for a mutually negotiated and agreed-upon resolution of the conflict while rejecting unilateralism.

Second, it violates existing Israeli-Palestinian bilateral agreements, most notably the Oslo II agreements of September 28th 1995, which state that "neither side shall initiate or take any step that will change the status of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip pending the outcome of the Permanent Status negotiations" (Article 31). Simply put, Israel and the PLO undertook to resolve any disagreements through bilateral negotiation, and such a unilateral Palestinian resolution amounts to a material breach of this foundational undertaking.

Third, the Israeli-Palestinian bilateral Interim Agreement was signed not only by Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization, but it was witnessed by the UN itself together with the EU, the Russian Federation, the U.S., Egypt and Norway. Accordingly, it would be highly inappropriate for such witnesses to now authorize a UN measure that would effectively violate this agreement, let alone the major resolutions of the UN Security Council and the Quartet itself.

Fourth, the Palestinian resolution – and concomitant UN General Assembly vote – might well unravel the institutionalized legal and administrative framework that underpins existing Israeli-Palestinian relations, and which include bilateral arrangements in over 40 spheres of civilian activity, serving as a basis for economic, political, legal and security co-operation.

Fifth, if such UN General Assembly recognition were to take place while Hamas is the ongoing authority in Gaza – and in control of Gazan territory and the Gazan people – it would effectively amount to recognition of Hamas itself. Yet Hamas is defined as a terrorist organization by Canada, the U.S. and European countries. Also, Hamas continues to reject the basic requirements of the international community for the conferral of any legitimacy upon it, such as Hamas recognizing Israel's right to exist, forswearing terrorism and accepting previous international agreements.

Sixth, and as a corollary, the Palestinian Authority does not yet meet the criteria spelled out under the 1993 Montevideo Convention for statehood, including a defined territory, effective government, and adherence to the rule of law. Indeed, a premature recognition of an "unripe" Palestinian state could have a prejudicial effect on other regional conflicts.

Seventh, such premature and precipitous UN recognition might well have the effect, as President Obama and others have stated, of prejudicing, rather than enhancing, Palestinian rights and Palestinians' legitimate claim to statehood; also, it might well generate false expectations that will not be realized, with Palestinians' aspirations being frustrated rather than fulfilled.

Eighth, the Palestinian resolution purports to presuppose, and prejudge, the outcome of negotiations on such critical issues as borders and the status of Jerusalem, which were to be decided in direct negotiations between the parties. Indeed, in President Abbas' UN address of September 27th 2012 – and in his comments since – he spoke of "the realization of the independence of the State of Palestine, with East Jerusalem as its capital, over the entire territory occupied by Israel since 1967."

Ninth, by Abbas' own acknowledgement, the Palestinian Authority is seeking Observer State status not so much to solve the conflict, as for the "internationalization of the conflict as a legal matter, not only as a political one." In a word, President Abbas may well seek to invoke the International Criminal Court for politicized "lawfare" prosecutions against Israeli nationals, an adversarial initiative inimical to a peace process organized around bilateral negotiations.

Accordingly, only an immediate return to direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians – and one based on the principle of mutual recognition of two states for two peoples – will invite the establishment of the just and lasting peace that we all seek. Indeed, it would be the supreme irony if the UN General Assembly were to circumvent the legal and political imperatives of direct negotiations leading to such an outcome precisely on the 65th anniversary of its earlier UN partition resolution, which the Arab leadership rejected then, and the Palestinian leadership, regrettably, is undermining now.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: gnu
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:33 PM

Bobad... thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 08:46 PM

The only thing is you can not really negotiate with an occupier of your homeland, and one that can turn of the spigot. I think there are dangers to be sure, but it had to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 09:11 PM

That's an important point Greg. Israel's increasingly reckless behaviour (some of it just a quest for electoral advantage) is alienating a growing element of its own population. I was in Israel in October and sensed many tensions: tensions between zealots and secularists; between haves and have-nots (inequality is growing in Israel as in many other parts if the world) and between hawks and doves.

If the country sticks to its present course, we could be seeing an Israeli spring within a year or two.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: ollaimh
Date: 30 Nov 12 - 11:24 PM

i remain quit queasy about the level of fascism in the palestinian leadership. hamas is an out right fascist poarty and abbas the supposed moderate did his phd on the protocols of the elders on zion as truth. he now says he did;t mean it, but its clear he was an open fascist. so as a result i will not support this palestinian leadership. however israel had the opportunity to stop the settlements on occupied territiory with the oslo accord, and actually agreed to stasrt the process of stopping settlements(the wording of which is full of weasle words) none the less they should have stopped those settlements twenty years ago at the very least and did not. so i can't suppport israel either. i would not get involved in any way.

as far at the recent motion in the un, i doubt it will make much real difference and israle may say that all adhera=ence to the oslo accodrds is now in breach and increase the settlements.

clearly palestinians need a country but i do not think nthis resolution is going to aid that at all

as for the us and uk involvement both clearly comtributed to the establishment of the israeli state. nothing would have happened without the balfour declaration. america had armed and paid for israel . if do wonder why, but the military capitalists are not always logical, except in that war makes the rich among the military capitalists much richer. and that may be it. the united kingdom has made war in every corener of the globe and their elite made fortunes from it. and americans are catching up fast on a permanent war economy. i don't think that stragety will work any more in the long run but they have not adjusted. american foreign military might doesn't make money like the old british colonies once did, so america is making money on the war industries but the governemnt is stuck with paying for the expense of a world wide military reach.

either american will have to cut back two thirds of their world wde military bases or go bankrupt. the alternate would be to make money from the places where they have military involvement. a new resource and land empire? seems inlikely . but the right in america may go that route rather than give up the world wide military nonsense.

they would have been better off returning to a modified isolationism at the end of the cold war. sigh but not likely now/

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 01:59 AM

Peter and Steve condemn me for alluding to the holocaust.
You like to imagine it has no relevance any more.
Israel was created in the immediate aftermath of the holocaust, and because of the holocaust.
The Israelis are the children and grandchildren of those who lived through it and see things differently.

They fear for their children.
The next holocaust may be only months away, and almost the whole world, like almost the whole of Mudcat, ignores their fears.

They are determined not to go meekly into the fire a second time, and as I and all my loved ones live thousands of miles from the next ground zero, I do not feel entitled to judge them.

Iran, in the form of Hamas and Hezbollah are on their borders planning their next move.
They are not LiberalLeft like you are and how you like to imagine them.
The are extreme religious, Nationalist, Fascists and are openly genocidal.
You like to believe they do not really mean what they say.
Steve actually said he wished they would keep it quiet because it encourages Islamophobes.

Israelis can not stick their fingers in their ears and sing la la like us when they talk of destroying Israel and exterminating the Jews.
They are the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 10:54 AM

Keep what quiet, Keith?

Don't you just love all that romanticised claptrap about previous accords, interim agreements, the role of the UN, a "defined territory" etc? You know damn well that all that lot rolled up together means diddley squat because Israel and the complicit US have shat on all of it. Trying to hold the Palestinians to agreements on peace talks is disingenuous and totally dishonest. There can be no meaningful peace talks and everyone here knows it whether they acknowledge the fact or not. Meaningful peace talks can be held only when Israel agrees to things which it will never agree to. Talking to Hamas (peace talks that exclude Hamas would be a charade - it doesn't matter what you think of them, they are either included or, well, forget the talks). Abandoning every illegal settlement in the West Bank and handing back the land (no self-respecting Palestinian will ever agree to much compromise on this, and why the hell should they? I don't seem to be able to get a straight answer from Keith on this, who thinks that all those illegal settlements represents Israel "dealing with it properly"...). Among other things, but these are the sticking points and you can "agree" what you like without addressing them 'til the bloody cows come home but you won't get peace. And Israel will not compromise because they don't have to. They will get whatever they want to take and it will be forever thus - until the US makes its military aid conditional. There are plenty of foghorn voices on here but not so much facing up to the obstinate reality of what a path to real peace means.

In the years or decades to come, the one thing that just might bring Israel to heel could be its increasing isolation. Even Jordan is on the turn. One day, the US might decide, just like Sharon decided about Gaza, that Israel just ain't worth it. Then what?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 10:54 AM

"But shame on the UK for feebly abstaining...."


No! UK did NOT abstain, Haig did.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 11:00 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-okays-west-bank-settlement-construction-163700464.html
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 11:10 AM

or even Hague......

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 04:59 PM

Keith on this, who thinks that all those illegal settlements represents Israel "dealing with it properly"

I have not said anything that could remotely be so interpreted.
Why do you feel the need to make such shit up Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 05:05 PM

Keep what quiet, Keith?
"Hamas is wrong-headed in continuing to pronounce against the existence of the state of Israel. Idiotic, in fact, because it's the very first thing that western Islamophobes leap on."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 08:05 PM

And when did I say that should be kept quiet? Had I wanted it to be kept quiet I wouldn't have bloody mentioned it, would I!

Keith, I have asked you at least five or six times whether you think that building more settlements at an ever-increasing pace shows Israel "dealing with things properly". As you refuse to answer, and along with the undeniable fact that you are firmly in the Israel camp on this, it seems only fair to assume that you think that the settlements are OK, that Israel should continue in the same way to steal land and build ever more, and that it's a good way of dealing with the issue. I'd love you to declare that I've got you all wrong on this and that you despise those settlements and see them as a fatal obstacle to any peace talks. I suppose I shouldn't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 08:36 PM

The Israelis are the children and grandchildren of those who lived through it and see things differently.

That is fanciful tosh, Keith. I know that many hundreds of thousands arrived from the Soviet Union after the (Berlin) wall came down. At least 250,000 Israelis are from Ethiopia, and thousands more are from India and other parts of India, to say nothing of those who emigrated from the US. My guess is that much fewer than half of all Israelis are decended from Holocaust survivors, but you probably know all this stuff better than I do.

I have never been able to understand why anyone anywhere should be able to stake a claim to another country on the strength of his or her professed religion. For a displaced Palestinian, watching an American family setting up home illegally in what was his homeland, it must be very hard to swallow. No wonder Keith likes to think of the newcomers as holocaust survivors, for that makes their behaviour seem so much more palatable.

They fear for their children. Quite so, Keith. Their children are precious human beings. Just like those children in Gaza who, unlike Israeli kids, actually do get killed in significant numbers and with depressing regularity.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 12 - 08:47 PM

"Fascist" is term for particular type of political ideology. It doesn't just mean "I don' like this those people' . Hamas is not fascist, nor are the Palestinian. Authority or the Israeli government. That doesn't mean they all haven't done some pretty nasty things.

If the two state. Solution is in fact dead in the water, this will ultimately ensure that there will ultimately cease to be a "Jewish state" called Israel. The strange thing is that the move to have Palestine recognised as a state is the best hope that there is for avoiding that happening - as Abbas mor or less said when addressing the UN.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 02:33 AM

McG. "fascist" is a fair description of the ideology of extreme Islamist groups like Hamas.

Steve, you actually put "dealing with it properly" in quotes.
It is a lie that I said or think any such thing.
Again, why do you need to make stuff up?
I did say that we should finish discussing Gaza before we widened the discussion to the whole Mid East situation.

Me "Steve actually said he wished they(Hamas) would keep it(destruction of Israel) quiet because it encourages Islamophobes."
You "Hamas is wrong-headed in continuing to pronounce against the existence of the state of Israel. Idiotic, in fact, because it's the very first thing that western Islamophobes leap on."

Peter.
I have never been able to understand why anyone anywhere should be able to stake a claim to another country on the strength of his or her professed religion
Me neither Peter, but we are discussing Israel which was given to the Jews by the secular United Nations in the aftermath of the holocaust.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 06:11 AM

Twist, twist, twist. You don't get to dictate what is discussed in threads in order to compartmentalise your prejudices. You could try answering awkward questions honestly instead and gain yourself a bit more respect.

On a pedantic note, I don't think we should refer to the mass exterminations by the Nazis as "the holocaust". It should be "the Holocaust". Personally, I always shudder when the word "holocaust" is used in any other sense. There are plenty of other words. Just me innit.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 06:56 AM

I don't know that I agree about the use of the word holocaust being exclusively applied for all time to the mass killing of Jews during WWII. I believe the application of the term in that context set a precedent whereby it has been applied in the context of other mass deaths, such as "the Cambodian Holocaust" (2 Million killed from a population of 8 Million) for example. As we more further on in time, it may be a term that will become applicable in multiple instances where genocidal atrocities have afflicted different groups of people, and I think rightly so. While it's important not to forget what happened in WWII, it's also important that the mass slaughter and suffering of *other* ethnic groups, are not entirely eclipsed by this lone historical event. History didn't stop with WWII, though sometimes (especially in Hollywood) it can seem as though it did.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 07:02 AM

PS - I'm not arguining that you're *wrong* in any way Steve! Just responding to your opinion, with my own opinion on the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 07:37 AM

Steve, in threads specifically about Gaza, I was not prepared to embark on yet another discussion of the vast complex subject of the whole Mid East situation just because you could not make a case about Gaza.

On the subject of unanswered questions, over the last few days I put this one to you about eight times.
Will you explain why you still believe Hamas will break its covenant, and stop trying to kill Jews, if given more concessions even though all previous concession have only resulted in an increase in attacks?

Still waiting Steve.
Please post your reply on the relevant thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 07:43 AM

Steve,
It should be "the Holocaust". Personally, I always shudder when the word "holocaust" is used in any other sense.

Then why did you not join me in deploring the use of the words "holocaust" and "shoah" by Stringsinger to describe the non-existant starvation in Gaza where not one person has ever starved?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 07:53 AM

Actually, Keith, the word 'holocaust' originally simply meant the burning whole of a sacrificed ox or other animal. Its capitalisation to designate the Nazi slaughter of the Jews, many of whom were indeed subsequently burned, was simply a metaphor. There is no point in either deploring the use of the word in its original sense, or in denying anyone the right to extend the metaphor to other situations which they might view as analogous; tho I agree they often, regrettably, do so with considerably injudicious hyperbole ~~ it may be remembered that I have frequently taken issue with Jim on other threads for doing so in what I regarded as a fashion which trivialised the original atrocity and took too little account of the lamentable overtones the word has acquired for the members of the race of the original victims.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 09:27 AM

The term "the Holocaust" has become so attached to one particular event that I feel that trying to reclaim "holocaust" for other events is not only potentially disrespectful to those who died in the Holocaust but also a potential source of confusion. You have the reader having to process whether you are referring to the Nazi atrocity even if you are not. There is only one other historical event that could reasonably lay claim, I think, and that is the Armenian genocide, which, I believe, once had the word holocaust attached to it long before the Nazis came along, but that didn't really catch on. Canute demonstrated that you can't turn back the tide. I suppose there are still a valiant few who capriciously continue to think that gay means jolly.

Keith, I posted a link ages ago to demonstrate to you that Mr Jabari, a leading light in Hamas, was negotiating a truce and was attempting to bring about a longer-term ceasefire when he was murdered in a single act that showed how unfit the Israeli administration is to run a chippy, let alone a nation. Yes, we could all demonise Hamas as a bunch of subhuman, rabid Islamists, as you do, and which they are not, but even if they were that would not stop them from being pragmatic when there is something on the table. I've also reminded you that Gerry Adams and co. did not revoke their demand for a united Ireland even though they were pragmatic enough to see that peace would mean far better times for their people. Hamas will be exactly the same. But if you offer them nothing, as Israel does, they have nothing to lose. A real prospect of peace and a bit more prosperity will have them round the table. Cloud cuckoo land? Yeah, well we all said that about the IRA, didn't we?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 09:36 AM

CS makes a valid point. Will Hutton expressed it succinctly a few years ago in an article questioning the wisdom of the UK and several other European nations introducing a Holocaust Memorial Day (27 January) rather than a day to remember all genocides. He said that focusing on the singularity of the Holocaust encourages the idea that genocidal tendencies are a condition found mainly in Germany, whereas we all have blood on our hands. (Well words to that effect.)

Keith, in your response to me you seem to be agreeing that the creation of Israel was misguided even if well intentioned. Yet you are incapable of any empathy with the victims of that decision.

For me the solution is not to unwind the decision and remove Israel from the map, but to ask Israel to show some statesmanship and behave like a responsible citizen of the world. That would be enough to satisfy the regional neighbours, Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, none of which ever showed much enthusiasm for the Palestinian cause. With such a regional consensus and with Palestinians treated as human beings, there would be no need for a two-state solution and no need for the Hamas rockets (which are hopelessly ineffective anyway, though that might change).

Your solution, it seems to me, is to bully the weaker side into surrender. In other words might is right.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 09:58 AM

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them."

All that may be so, but some of them won't get a good night's sleep.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 10:00 AM

The problem with asking Israel to show statesmanship is that it would mean their having to make what they would see as compromises, the chief of which would be to withdraw from some, most or all of those settlements. We are in a position in which Israel does not have give anything. In fact, they can continue to take with impunity. Statesmanship implies accepting responsibility for your actions. Seeing that if I do this thing I want to do, then that will happen, and I might not like it, and it may adversely affect others, so I'll think again. I can't see that ever coming about when Israel is so indulged by the west, the US in particular. No-one has ever sent Israel to bed early for being naughty, or even threatened it, so we have a spoiled Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 10:00 AM

The dictionary I rely on mostly, gives the following:

hol-o-caust (hol-a-kawst || hoi-) n. 1. Great or total destruction by fire; a conflagration.
2. a. Any widespread, horrific destruction of human life.
b. Often capital H. The mass killings of Jews by the Nazi regime during World War II.
3. Archaic. A sacrificial offering that is consumed entirely by flames; a burnt offering. —See Synonyms at disaster. [Middle English, from Old French holocauste, from Latin holocaustum, from Greek holokauston, from holokaustos, burnt whole: holo-, whole + kaustos, variant of kautos, burnt, from kaein, to burn.]

The Greater Oxford Dictionary gives:
Holocaust:
1 A case of large scale destruction or slaughter esp. by fire or nuclear war
2 A sacrifice wholly consumed by fire

It isolates the mass killing of the Jews as 'The Holocaust'

Maybe the quibble is not so much over the definition of 'holocaust' but rather, what is meant by 'widespread', 'large scale' or 'great, all of which, as far as I'm concerned, cover many of the massacres or large scale killings that have taken place in this conflict.
The use of the term 'Irish holocaust' is fairly common here when referring to the Great Irish Famine, in any way showing the slightest disrespect to the Jewish victims of the Nazis, nor do I believe is the term when used in discussions such as this, certainly not by me.
The denial that these massacres took place, or that those implicated 'didn't do it because they have said they didn't', on the other hand……
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 10:01 AM

the leopard shall lie down with the kid

Nah, that was Jimmy Savile.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 10:01 AM

Your source Bashkin also said of Jabari, "
"Mr. Jabari was not a man of peace; he didn't believe in peace with Israel and refused to have any direct contact with Israeli leaders and even nonofficials"
And that he was "in line to die, not a righteoous man of peace"

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 10:03 AM

Sorry - that should be 'in no way showing the slightest disrespect'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 10:04 AM

Which shows what a good source it was. I suppose we can't ask him now what it would have taken to persuade him that lasting peace was possible, but we do know he was working for a long-term ceasefire. And since when has Israel agreed to talk to Hamas people in any case?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 10:16 AM

There's lots of that going around, Steve. People only read what supports their position.

IMO, two things have got to happen.

1) Netanyahu has to lose his position as leader

2) Hamas has to change its Charter

Until both those things occur (are brought about) little except rhetoric will prevail.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 10:17 AM

or Hamas with Jews?
Negotiations are always through intermediaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 10:27 AM

Peter.
Keith, in your response to me you seem to be agreeing that the creation of Israel was misguided even if well intentioned.
Yes well intentioned, but pragmatic not misguided.
There was no good solution, just the best possible one.
Yet you are incapable of any empathy with the victims of that decision.
That is a very insulting and wrong thing to say about me.
The plight of the Palestinian refugees breaks my heart as it would that of any half decent human being.

I do note that the kind of settlement they now seek was available to them under the original plan, but the Arab nations tried to improve on it by violence and failed.
I also think it shameful that the Arab nations refused, and still refuse to settle the refugees, while Israel on its tiny scrap of land settled many, many more Jewish refugees.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 01:40 PM

After the announcement of go ahead for 3000 new homes for settlers, further Israeli punishment of Palestine for seeking recognition by the UN in form of 120 million dollars of seized taxes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/02/israel-palestinian-tax-revenue-un-vote

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 02:26 PM

Hamas has to change its Charter

This is the received wisdom, of course, though it often sounds more like just an excuse not to talk. We didn't force the IRA to relinquish their claim to a united Ireland before we talked to them. The problem here is that you are saying that I won't talk until you give up your core conviction. Until you grovel, in other words. Would you say to Israel that you won't talk until they give up the settlements? Not really. Honest talking comes without any preconditions. Don't you think that getting Hamas to the table would be a victory of sorts? Cloud cuckoo land? Maybe, but just look at the Six Counties today.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 02:38 PM

I don't mean as a precondition to talking.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 04:29 PM

We didn't force the IRA to relinquish their claim to a united Ireland before we talked to them.

No, but if their core claim was that Britain be destroyed as a nation and every British person killed, we might have.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 04:48 PM

""Will you explain why you still believe Hamas will break its covenant, and stop trying to kill Jews, if given more concessions even though all previous concession have only resulted in an increase in attacks?""

I'm sure Steve would be happy to answer, if you answer a question yourself.

Why do you, despite all evidence to the contrary, still believe that Israel will leave Palestine alone (which would have to include the West bank), if Hamas stop their sole means of resistance.

Common sense alone (if any) should tell you that isn't likely.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 05:04 PM

"Will you explain why you still believe Hamas will break its covenant, and stop trying to kill Jews,"

Finkelstein recently got pulled up for 'racism' over his use of the phrase "Jewish Highways" through Palestine, when it was agued - on the basis that Israel is a democracy containing both Muslims as well as Jews - that he should have said "Israeli Highways". He accepted the point. So should those antagonistic to the Palestinian cause. Either Israel is a democratic land filled with multiple peoples, or it is an apartheid Jewish theocracy. One or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 05:33 PM

Don, believe Israel will leave Gaza alone if the rockets stop, since Israel has tried to do just that, but they will not stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 07:35 PM

Israel won't leave the West Bank alone, but no rockets are fired from there. Note the witholding of tax receipts today, Keith.

The problem with trying to demonstrate that Hamas still attacks Israel in spite of Israel's having made concessions is that Israel hasn't really made any concessions worth conceding or worth having. Their idea of concessions is to take, take and take, as much as they like, when they like (another 3000 homes to come on stolen land), then give back just a little. That isn't concessions. That's cheating.

As for their core claim, well about 20 Israelis have been killed by Hamas in more than ten years. In the 22 years from 1969 the IRA killed about 1800 people (their opponents killed quite a few more than that, but let's leave that one for a minute). The killing efficiency of the IRA was about 4,000% "better" than Hamas's (you do the maths), yet the IRA wasn't, apparently, setting out to destroy us all. In other words, Keith, you're talking absolute bollocks. One day we WILL talk to Hamas. It's people like you who deny that it can happen who ensure that the slaughter goes on, and there are plenty of you. Hamas will talk if you give them something to talk about and once you stop refusing to talk.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Dec 12 - 11:52 PM

Steve: Not quite fair here. K's point is surely that the IRA didn't even express it as a policy to kill all British people, while Hamas do retain the utter destruction of all Jews in the disputed lands as their declared and official aim. And before we laugh at the arrogance and impossibility of achievement of that intention, let's not forget that the last man who expressed such an intent didn't do a bad job of achieving his target, to the extent of a score of 6,000,000.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 02:56 AM

It's people like you who deny that it can happen who ensure that the slaughter goes on

Right. People like me who want the killing to stop ARE to blame, while the people dedicated to carry on the killing are not.

The Jew body count is not an indication of the effectiveness of the missile onslaught.
The body count is low only because a third of the whole population of Israel are confined to their shelters with the economy and normal life shut down.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:21 AM

Netanyahu has lost the plot. Jesus H Christ, Joseph and Mary. That fucking guy needs his head read, soonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:33 AM

""Don, believe Israel will leave Gaza alone if the rockets stop, since Israel has tried to do just that, but they will not stop.""

Disingenuous Keith!

Firstly because Israel, whatever you may think, isn't bound by your assurances.

Secondly because Israel firmly intends to keep the West Bank against any opposition, and will continue to provoke Hamas into terrorist activity in an attempt to hang on to the unswerving loyalty of people like yourself who will never see anything wrong in what they do.

It is that loyalty which permits them to continue to murder civilians.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:40 AM

""while Hamas do retain the utter destruction of all Jews in the disputed lands as their declared and official aim. And before we laugh at the arrogance and impossibility of achievement of that intention, let's not forget that the last man who expressed such an intent didn't do a bad job of achieving his target, to the extent of a score of 6,000,000.""

I think you would find that Hamas would happily settle for the withdrawal of Israelis from the disputed lands, which Israel is determined will not happen.

And that last man had a lot more resources than a few unguided rockets.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:47 AM

I do not dispute that, Don, because I do not know. And neither do you. Neither of us, I suspect, posseses a reliable crystal ball. BUT it would be idle on your part to deny that the present declared and official line of Hamas is that all Jews in the region must be exterminated. That is a matter of undisputed public record, and all your evasions and huffings and puffings are not going to make it go away, (or blow anybody's house down, for that matter!).

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 07:14 AM

""the present declared and official line of Hamas is that all Jews in the region must be exterminated.""

If one accepts that, then there is no reason for Israel ever to stop until they have rendered Gaza uninhabitable for either their people or Palestinians.

Since Israel has never offered withdrawal the point is moot.

That Hamas will stop the attacks following the removal of Israelis from the illegally occupied land is no more or less believable than that Israel will withdraw following the cessation of Hamas attacks.

The one thing that is indisputible is that the Palestinians will take generations to recover, while Israel has hardly any real damage.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 07:49 AM

Don, there are no restrictions at all on food and humanitarian supplies.
There is no restriction on building materials for the aid agencies, but Israel will not supply it to Hamas to build missile bunkers.
Do you blame them for that?

Israel has withdrawn all its people, settlers and troops from Gaza.
That made the missile attacks worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 07:58 AM

Steve: Not quite fair here. K's point is surely that the IRA didn't even express it as a policy to kill all British people, while Hamas do retain the utter destruction of all Jews in the disputed lands as their declared and official aim. And before we laugh at the arrogance and impossibility of achievement of that intention, let's not forget that the last man who expressed such an intent didn't do a bad job of achieving his target, to the extent of a score of 6,000,000.

I'm sitting here with knitted brow wondering what you're on about. That is precisely what I said myself, I do believe. And stop playing the Holocaust card, please. That is just the trap that the Zionists want you to fall into.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:10 AM

Greg F.

YOU are the ass, as demonstrated by your saying that the words "Black and a Democrat" mean "Dumb ni**er" to you.




Don stated
"It's entirely immaterial what size chunk is stolen from you, you have a right to object."

Yet he has never supported any claim BY Israelis on territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:14 AM

Well anyway, Keith, back to the claim you made about how Israel deals with things properly. Palestine makes a symbolic, non-violent declaration that most of the world endorses except, predictably, for the Israel/US/AIPAC axis and a few tiny states. Israel responds petulantly by declaring a massive settlement expansion that will further fragment what could be a future Palestininan state, and then witholds tax receipts for the month, possibly for next month as well, so that West Bank Palestinian working people won't get their salaries (remember, Keith: the West Bank Palestinians are not the ones firing rockets...)

How would you characterise those actions, Keith? Responsible? Humanitarian? Sensible? Appropriate? Morally justified? Dealing with things properly? A good move towards peace? It isn't really about Hamas, is it, Keith? They don't live in the West Bank and they don't fire rockets from the West Bank, do they? Whaddya think? Another vindictive bout of Israeli collective punishment, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:18 AM

Israel has withdrawn all its people, settlers and troops from Gaza.

Well yes, except for the fact that they appear to have reserved the right to make military incursions whenever they feel like it, killing the odd civilian or twenty while they're at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:19 AM

Net result for the ordinary Palestinian refugee: a temporary feeling of achievement.

Period.

Ironically, the vote should add to the prestige of the 77-year-old Mahmoud Abbas of the PLO, the internationally recognized President of the Palestinian National Authority, who is committed to a peaceful two-state solution.

Instead the violent missilemen of Hamas will get the credit.

Net result for the region: negative.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:20 AM

"Don, there are no restrictions at all on food and humanitarian supplies."
The Dalek-like repetition of this only serves to underline your continuing to ignore the evidence put forward
Deliberate delays on the delivery of medical supplies have caused shortages which have led to deaths
You have had the evidence
Long-term blockading of essential equipment has led to malnutrition in %10 of Palestinian children
You have had the evidence
Blockading of farming equipment has prevented farmers from growing food, either to feed their families or to sell in order to earn a living
You have had the evidence
the long-term blockading building equipment essential to the rebuilding of homes destroyed by Israeli attacks has left many people homeless (even if it were true that the blockade of this equipment has been lifted - no roof available) the fact that this has been the situation for years means that this has been an ongoing situation for homeless families affected by Israel's scorched -eath policy)
You have had the evidence
The Berlin-type Wall has cut many farmers off from their land, denying them the means to make a living
You have had your evidence
Above all
No state should have the right to blockade the borders of another state and make them reliant on shipped-in goods rather than those they can produce themselves   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:21 AM

Keith, back to the claim you made about how Israel deals with things properly
You will have to remind me Steve.
I can neither remember or find any such.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:36 AM

Get help, Bruce - soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:36 AM

Steve,

You state:
" Palestine makes a symbolic, non-violent declaration that most of the world endorses except, predictably, for the Israel/US/AIPAC axis and a few tiny states. Israel responds petulantly by declaring a massive settlement expansion that will further fragment what could be a future Palestininan state, and then witholds tax receipts for the month, possibly for next month as well, so that West Bank Palestinian working people won't get their salaries (remember, Keith: the West Bank Palestinians are not the ones firing rockets...)"

PLEASE note that even YOU are saying that the reaction to the UN action ( NOT THE MISSILES FROM GAZA) is to withhold taxes.

The taxes were being collected IN ACCORDANCE with accords that were signed by both parties, and that PALESTINIANS on the WEST BANK have now violated. WHY should Israel continue to act according to an agreement that has been violated?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:39 AM

I can't see that ever coming about when Israel is so indulged by the west, the US in particular. No-one has ever sent Israel to bed early for being naughty....

Well yes, Steve, my hope for the future is well lubricated with wishful thinking. But I don't think I'm clutching at straws when I see tiny signs of the West backing away from unconditional approval of all Israeli excesses. Todayounc France and the UK, in an obviously co-ordinated move, called in Israeli ambassadors to remonstrate against the announced intention to plant 3,000 more dwellings in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

That will cut no ice with Israel right now, but will not have gone un-noticed in Washington. Contrary to what we assume, the US does not like to be completely isolated. Even before his re-election Obama did not bother to hide his dislike of Netanyahu. Surely Israel can no longer count on the unqualified US backing it has enjoyed hitherto.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:50 AM

Deliberate delays on the delivery of medical supplies have caused shortages which have led to deaths
You have had the evidence
Only out of date evidence.
Found anything recent Jim?
I am not sure the date of this Gaza TV piece, but note the "officials" disagree with Hamas about the cause of delays.

"In a press conference in Gaza, Hamas Health Minister said that because of Israeli blockade, Gaza is suffering from severe medicine shortage which is threatening the lives of many patients in the enclave.
Gaza officials put the blame on Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, saying the PA usually deliberately delay sending Gaza's monthly medicine share."


Long-term blockading of essential equipment has led to malnutrition in %10 of Palestinian children
You have had the evidence
Everywhere else malnutrition is caused by poverty.
13% of children in parts of Egypt.
But here it is all Israel's fault, according to the propaganda.


Blockading of farming equipment has prevented farmers from growing food, either to feed their families or to sell in order to earn a living
You have had the evidence
No actually.
Only those fertilisers that can be made into explosives are banned.

the long-term blockading building equipment essential to the
rebuilding of homes destroyed by Israeli attacks has left many people homeless (even if it were true that the blockade of this equipment has been lifted - no roof available) the fact that this has been the situation for years means that this has been an ongoing situation for homeless families affected by Israel's scorched -eath policy)
You have had the evidence
They have managed to build massive underground missile storage bunkers.
I wonder what they used, and why they could not build houses with it instead.

The Berlin-type Wall has cut many farmers off from their land, denying them the means to make a living
You have had your evidence
Not in Gaza Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:59 AM

"Holocaust card" ----

a facile, evasive, emotive locution which merely trivialises its intolerable referent. I am surprised to find you using it, Steve. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I don't expect you are.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 09:03 AM

Above all, no state should have the right to blockade the borders of another state and make them reliant on shipped-in goods rather than those they can produce themselves

...unless that other state announces its intention to destroy first state and murder all its people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 09:11 AM

You have once more rebutted all that you have ben presented with without offering one single shred of hard evidence - malnutrition is a long-term fact no matter how 'out-of-date the evidence is, and has been caused by over the years shortages.
The fact that there is no official list of embargoed items despite the promise to produce one following the military incursion of several years ago means that they are able to ban what they like - on a daily basis.
Their 'calorie-count' is a clear indication that they intend to intensify their 'starve-them-out policy.
Their proposed electoral partners along with other extremists have proposed cutting off electricity and water in order to "drive them into Egypt - not beyond the realms of possibility given past behaviour - just think - lots and lots more refugees to massacre!!
The United Nations and Amnesty's reports are current - even if that was not the case, the dead who died of medical shortages are still dead - indicating that the Israeli aggression is aimed at civilians.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 09:25 AM

malnutrition is a long-term fact no matter how 'out-of-date the evidence is, and has been caused by over the years shortages.
It is caused by poverty.
It is worse in parts of Egypt.
Gaza can import as much food as it likes through Israel.
Hamas spends millions on missiles while Gazans struggle to buy the plentiful food.

The fact that there is no official list of embargoed items despite the promise to produce one following the military incursion of several years ago means that they are able to ban what they like - on a daily basis.
I would love to see evidence of that.

Their 'calorie-count' is a clear indication that they intend to intensify their 'starve-them-out policy.
No. There is now no restriction whatsoever on food.
The calorie counting was years ago to ensure there was enough even with restrictions.

indicating that the Israeli aggression is aimed at civilians.
No.
Hamas openly targets civilians for death.
Israel does all it can to spare them.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 09:53 AM

" "This was a Palestinian provocation and an attempt to advance their state without recognizing Israel," Steinitz said. "We said it would not pass quietly," he reminded.

Steinitz said the funds would be used instead "to offset the PA's electricity debts." Gaza derives at least 40 percent of its power from the Israeli electricity grid; the PA-controlled areas of Judea and Samaria derive 100 percent of their electricity from Israel.

It also circumvented the mandate for final status negotiations with Israel as required by the internationally-recognized Oslo Accords signed by the PA and Israel in the 1990s. By abrogating that agreement, there now exists a legal question as to whether or not the entire document is null and void – including the Paris Protocols, the section delineating economic agreements between Israel and the PA.

In response, the day after the U.N. vote the Israeli government authorized construction of 3,000 housing units in "E1" - an area between Jerusalem and Maale Adumim - as well as in other areas of Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 10:57 AM

"It is caused by poverty."
Where is your evidence for this, disproving the fact that both the UN and Amnesty have linked it directly to the blockade, as they have both linked shortages to medical supplies which have caused deaths due to deliberate delays at checkpoints - you are making this up as you go along in order to defend behaviour that is condemned by the civilised world - and the rest of this forum.
Hamas spends money on weapons because it has an aggressive terrorist state for a neighbour - and one who is intending to build over 1,000 settlements as an act of revenge for the opposition shown to that terrorism.   
"No. There is now no restriction whatsoever on food."
How can you claim to know this if there is no set list of banned items?
If there is to be no attempt to control food - why thecalorie count in the first place?
"I would love to see evidence of that."
The evidence for the fact that there is no set list has been produced in one of the many links you have chosen to ignore - show usthe current official list.
"Hamas openly targets civilians for death."
No it doesn't - it does not have the technology to do soIsrael on the other hand has deliberately targeted apartment blocks full of families - and you have given them your blessing for having done so - what was it - it's ok to bomb occupied areas if they believe Hamas fighters are there?.
Not only do they not know where Hamas fighters are (your claim that they have the technology reads like something out of Isaac Assimov), but they have said that they were deliberately targeting places were they lived Hapas people lived - what would that be - 1 Hamas fighter + 20 or 30 of his neighbours?      
As I said - making it up as you go along in order to excuse behaviour that is recognised worldwide as inhuman - as shown by Palestine being given observer status at the UN
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: bobad
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 11:11 AM

Hamas leader Al-Zahhar calls for end of Israel by 'liberating all of Palestine' not two-states. Taunts Abu Mazen.

YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 12:03 PM

Jim, there is a list and no food is on it.
Has been for a couple of years now.
Hamas does openly target civilians.
Last month's bus bomb for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 12:43 PM

bobad, many folks here will not watch that video because it puts forth things contrary to their views.

##############################

What amazes me is this: why do people think that doing the same thing over and over and over will provide different results?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: bobad
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 12:48 PM

I am well aware of that 999 but I feel compelled to at least make an attempt to put some balance to the feeding frenzy of anti-Israel sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 12:53 PM

Perhaps the Ant-Israeli sentiment exists because one more time they've screwed the pooch?

Whats the old truism that those who have suffered abuse will perpetrate abuse on others?

Seems to fit the Likud to a "T".

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 01:07 PM

"Jim, there is a list and no food is on it."
Produce an up-to-date list if one exists
"Last month's bus bomb for instance."
Absolutely reprehensible but nothing compatred with Israel's ongoing targeting of civilians
"'liberating all of Palestine' not two-states."
http://www.timesofisrael.com/jimmy-carter-netanyahu-has-abandoned-two-state-solution-in-favor-of-greater-israel/
Leaving the Palestinians where exactly?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: bobad
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 01:13 PM

"....one more time they've screwed the pooch?"

Both sides have "screwed the pooch" yet there is a notable imbalance of placement of blame IMO. My belief is that the motivation for this is based on sentiment rather than impartial analysis of the situation. Take for example the lack of comment on the points made in my post of 30 Nov 12 - 08:27 PM, an argument based on law and treaty convention, a reasonable basis for discussion. Yet it is totally ignored by the same posters beating the same dead horse ad nauseam.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 01:17 PM

""Yet he has never supported any claim BY Israelis on territory.""

That might possibly be because the Arabs are not illegally grabbing Israeli land, which, in the West Bank, area is exactly what the Israelis are doing to Arab land, d'ye think?

In point of fact, every Israeli lives on Arab land which, by whatever means, was stolen from them initially.

They certainly didn't send out invitations.

What planet are you posting from BB?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 01:24 PM

""Don, there are no restrictions at all on food and humanitarian supplies.
There is no restriction on building materials for the aid agencies,""

Yeah WHA'EVVAH Keith! Say it often enough you'll start to believe it.

Oh! Damn, you already do!

I feel like a Hassidic Jew. I'm spending half me time talking to the F**king WALL!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 01:29 PM

Hamas do retain the utter destruction of all Jews in the disputed lands as their declared and official aim. And before we laugh at the arrogance and impossibility of achievement of that intention, let's not forget that the last man who expressed such an intent didn't do a bad job of achieving his target, to the extent of a score of 6,000,000.

"Holocaust card" ----

a facile, evasive, emotive locution which merely trivialises its intolerable referent. I am surprised to find you using it, Steve. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I don't expect you are.

Any "emotion" contained in those remarks is all yours, Michael. You know, I know, even Keith probably knows that there is not a cat in hell's chance of Hamas wiping out millions of Jews, in spite of what they say (and I wish they wouldn't, but even if they didn't I'm sure their detractors would find something else). Hitler wiped out six million in less than half the time it's taken Hamas to wipe out 20. So coming out with dark, foreboding statements like yours is not appropriate in the slightest. It's merely a sly demonisation of Hamas, that's all, and most unhelpful. There is no comparison between Hitler and Hamas. Actually, it has been said often, I think (though never by me) that Israel at times, in its dealings with the Palestinians, acts far more like that horrid fascist regime. As far as I'm concerned, neither Israel nor Hamas anywhere near qualify to be called Nazis or fascists. It is simply not a constructive line of argument. So no, I'm not at all ashamed of myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 01:31 PM

""They have managed to build massive underground missile storage bunkers.""

Reliable source for this?

ISRAEL SAID SO? They wouldn't lie.............would they? Well YES ACTUALLY, they would and they have, on numerous occasions.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 01:47 PM

Hamas openly targets civilians for death.
Israel does all it can to spare them.

Outcomes tell a different story Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: bobad
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 01:56 PM

Jonathan Kay: Benjamin Netanyahu is destroying hope for a two-state solution in the Middle East

Mahmoud Abbas scored two victories at the United Nations last week.

The first and most obvious was securing Palestinian status as a nonmember observer state at the UN — with the support of not only the usual rogue's gallery of human-rights abusers, but also a majority of OECD nations, including some that otherwise stand up for Israel's fight against Palestinian terrorism and militancy.

Abbas' second prize came a few days later: His UN victory goaded Benjamin Netanyahu's Israeli government into a reckless and overly aggressive counter-attack gesture in the West Bank, a move that threatens to poison the Israeli Prime Minister's relationship with his allies, including the United States.

Read more

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 02:01 PM

""Both sides have "screwed the pooch" yet there is a notable imbalance of placement of blame IMO. My belief is that the motivation for this is based on sentiment rather than impartial analysis of the situation. Take for example the lack of comment on the points made in my post of 30 Nov 12 - 08:27 PM, an argument based on law and treaty convention, a reasonable basis for discussion. Yet it is totally ignored by the same posters beating the same dead horse ad nauseam.""

Impartial analysis. OK!

The Gazans, incensed by Israel's violations of its borders, sinking of numbers of its fishing fleet, blockading its imports and exports , wantonly smashing up houses and schools in unsuccessful searches and shoooting to kill civilians who later (this from Israeli sodiers accounts) constitute a considerable part of Israel's list of terrorists killed, respond with largely ineffectual weapons which manage to kill an average of 2 Israelis per year for ten years.

Israel in response uses all its highly efficient bang up to date military resources to bomb Gaza to a heap of rubble, close all its borders except for a couple of tunnels into Egypt (which, due to an established rapport with Israel is impeding their use) through the Israeli built on Gazan land fence.

This, according to the Israeli apologists on this thread, does not constitute restriction, does not remove the ability to earn and purchase necessities, does not affect adversely the daily lives of civilians and has no bearing on the malnourishment of Gazans in general and particularly their children.

Then they fall back on "Hamas are intending to annihilate all Israelis", which, as a piece of wild exaggeration is unparalelled.

Hamas have as much chance of destroying Israel as Keith has of flapping his ears and flying.

It would however be no problem for Israel to squeeze all the Palestians they don't managed to kill across the border to Egypt, which would gain them a really comfy homeland.

Netanyahu and Likud will not unaware of that possibility and the more US and other Western support they get, the mor likely the move in that direction.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 02:19 PM

'Hamas have as much chance of destroying Israel as Keith has of flapping his ears and flying.'
..,,..
We all know that Don; but it nevertheless remains their avowed & official policy. My comparison with another who set out with similar intention and originally got laughed at and his threats set at nought was denounced by Steve, in that unspeakably disgusting locution, as 'playing the Holocaust Card'; he still can't see why that is such an objectionable locution in every way, and confirms my prediction that he would not be at all ashamed of using it; which only makes me very very very sorry for him and his lack of empathy and sensitivity and other such attributes which he lamentably lacks. But he won't see why, simply *BECAUSE* he lacks them, poor fellow. So roundandroundandroundandroundandroundandround we go...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 02:44 PM

"Israel does all it can to spare them."
The effects of the blockade on the day to day conditions of the people of Gaza
Jim Carroll

Effects of land blockade on Gaza There have been several reports and studies analysing the effect of the blockade on Gaza.
In July 2008, an UNRWA report on the situation in Gaza stated that "the number of households in Gaza below the consumption poverty line continued to grow, reaching 51.8 percent in 2007 (from 50.7 percent in 2006)".[124] In the same year, a Palestinian Bureau of Statistics study concluded that 80% of families in Gaza were living below the poverty line.[125] The CIA World Fact book places this figure at an estimated 70% for 2009.[126]
A World Health Organisation assessment conducted in 2009 claimed that the level of anemia in babies (9–12 months) was as high as 65%, while a Socio-economic and Food Security Survey Report stated that 61% of Gazans are food insecure and reliant on humanitarian aid. Of those that are food insecure, 65% are children under 18 years. Lastly, a European Network of Implementing Development Agencies (EUNIDA) report notes that, because of the security buffer zone imposed around Gaza as part of the blockade, as of June 2009, 46% of agricultural land was either inaccessible or out of production.[127]
On 14 June 2010, the International Committee of the Red Cross noted that the increasing scarcity of items has led to rises in cost of goods while quality has fallen.[128] There is also "an acute electricity crisis", where electricity supplies are "interrupted for seven hours a day on average". As a consequence, they note that public services, particularly health services, have suffered, posing "a serious risk to the treatment of patients". In addition, medical equipment is difficult to repair, and medical staff cannot leave to gain more training. Lastly, the ICRC note that sanitation is suffering, because construction projects lack the equipment needed, or the equipment is of poor quality. Only 60% of the population is connected to a sewerage collection system, with the rest polluting the Gaza aquifer. As a result, water is largely "unfit for consumption".[129]
A 25 May 2010 United Nations Development Programme report stated that, as a result of the blockade, most of Gaza's manufacturing industry has closed, and unemployment stood at an estimated 40%, a decrease on previous years. The blockade has also prevented much needed construction, noting that almost "none of the 3,425 homes destroyed during Cast Lead have been reconstructed, displacing around 20,000 people". Less than 20% "of the value of the damages to educational facilities has been repaired", only "half of the damage to the power network has been repaired", "no repair has been made to the transport infrastructure", "a quarter of damaged farmland has been rehabilitated and only 40% of private businesses have been repaired".[130"
"Effect on the fishing industryMenu0:00.Al Jazeera report on the effects on the fishing industryThe sea blockade has caused damage to Gaza fishing industry. Palestinian fishing was originally to be permitted up to 20 nautical miles (37 km) offshore under the 1994 Gaza-Jericho agreement.[133] The agreement wasn't implemented and Israel allows fishermen to travel only 3 nautical miles (5.6 km) offshore, reduced from 6 nmi (11 km) in 2007. Israeli officials say the restrictions are necessary because of past incidents of Palestinians using fishing boats for smuggling and attacks. One fisherman who went outside these limits was forced to strip down to his underwear and swim to a naval vessel.[135] He was blindfolded, handcuffed and taken in for questioning. The Israeli Navy's response was that it was checking for weapons. The Navy reports they intercepted the craft entering Gaza from Egypt. B'Tselem has released a report documenting the "continual shooting at, abuse of, and humiliation of" Palestinian fishermen.[135]
According to the Fishing Under Fire Report 2009,[136] since the declaration of the "ceasefire"(18 January 2009), till the end of 2009:
– 1 fisherman was killed by naval gunfire.
– at least 7 fishermen have been injured by naval gunfire and at least another one sustained burns after shelling in the sea, while another fisherman was reported by several media to be lightly injured by gunfire, but his name wasn't reported.
– at least 6 Palestinian civilians were injured on shore by Israeli Naval gunfire (among them 4 children) and several others have been reportedly injured (among them another 5 fishermen have been reportedly injured on shore by Israeli shelling)
– 68 arrests of fishermen have been reported (at least 2 fishermen arrests twice) and 29 "confiscations" of fishing boats. Several fishing boats have been returned but with damages and equipment missing, and at least one hassaka (small fishing boat) was confiscated again.
– 1 Greek boat of the Free Gaza Movement ("Spirit of Humanity", official name "Arion") was seized and confiscated and all the 21 passengers and crew detained and later deported.
The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs has estimated that Gaza fishermen need to journey at least 12–15 nautical miles from shore to catch larger shoals, and sardines in particular are 6 nmi (11 km) offshore. Shoals closer to shore have been depleted. The total catch pre-blockade in 1999 was nearly 4,000 tons, this was reduced to 2,700 tons in 2008. In the 90s, the Gaza fishing industry was worth $10 million annually or 4% of the total Palestinian economy; this was halved between 2001 and 2006. 45,000 Palestinians were employed in the fishing industry, employed in jobs such as catching fish, repairing nets and selling fish. Fish also provided much-needed animal protein to Gazans' diet.[137]
The International Committee of the Red Cross also notes that "90% of Gaza's 4000 fishermen are now considered either poor (with a monthly income of between 100 and 190 US dollars) or very poor (earning less than 100 dollars a month), up from 50% in 2008." Nezar Ayyash, head of Gaza's fishermen's union, is quoted as saying that he has been arrested and his boat confiscated several times.[129]
"

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 03:02 PM

What uncalled-for spleen, Michael. I merely asked you to not compare Hamas, even in a shady manner, with the Nazis. Your juxtaposition did exactly that. There is simply no comparison. Apart from anything else (and here's the realpolitik), Hamas would never carry the Gazan people with them if there was actually anything genuine on the table to negotiate if they then continued with the rocket attacks. Not in a million years. Hamas are no position to act as a dictatorship with their people not behind them. The problem is that the potential for Hamas to be pragmatic, in spite of all the hints coming from them, is never appreciated by their adversaries. Remember, Israel murdered one top Hamas man who was going for a long-term ceasefire. Odd, those negotiations, involving as they did a man who supposedly wanted every Jew dead. One day we will talk to Hamas. Israel knows that talking means compromising. All the bluster about Hamas being terrorists and we don't talk to terrorists (cheers to the US/AIPAC for that as well) is a cover for the fact that Israel neither needs nor wants compromises. It's an excuse not to talk which goes down well in Israel and the US. I suppose Israel will be looking over its shoulder tonight, worried that the US will join the chorus of outrage (which, unfortunately, is all singing but no dancing). They needn't fret. The Israel lobby, led by AIPAC, will ensure that any politico who goes beyond mild, formulaic rebuke, will be belly-up before they can say "where's democracy around here?"

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 03:28 PM

Jim and peter, it is a fact that hamas openly targets civilians for death, and that Israel does all it can to spare them.
Indiscriminate missiles aimed at towns are examples of this and anyway Hamas admits it just wants to kill jews, any Jews.

Here is your list Jim.
Post-June 2010
On June 17, 2010, the Israel cabinet agreed to ease the restrictions on items permitted into the Gaza strip.
List no. 1: Items Subject to Specific Permission
1. Arms and Munitions: forbidden transfer under all circumstances across Israel's frontiers without specific permits - as defined in the Control of Exports Security Order (Arms and Munitions) 5768-2008, and in the Control of Exports Security Order (Missile Equipment) 5768-2008.
2. Dual Use goods and items: liable to be used, side by side with their civilian purposes, for the development, production, installation or enhancement of military capabilities and terrorist capacities. This list comprises:
Items listed under the Wassenaar Arrangement: As specified in the updated (2008) "Wassenaar Arrangement on Export Controls for Arms and Dual Use Goods and Technologies - List of Dual Use Goods and Technologies and Munitions List."
Items whose entry into the PA Areas is controlled based on Israeli legislation: i.e. materials and equipment liable to be used for terror attacks and technology that could be used by terrorists - as defined in the Control of Exports Security Order (Controlled Dual Use Equipment Transferred to the PA Areas) 5768-2008 and in Orders of the OC Central Command.
These lists include, in detail, a range of chemicals used in the production of explosives (including certain fertilizers); specific types of metal profiles; ball bearings; lathes and their parts; composite materials; hunting knives and machetes; optical equipment, such as lasers and night vision goggles; certain navigation aides; diving equipment; parachutes, gliders and other nonmotorized airborne vehicles; flares and fireworks; avionics and flight control equipment; missile related computer technologies; rock drills and equipment drawing water from excavated sites. Items not necessarily included in the lists above but whose entry into Gaza is controlled, as detailed below:
i. Items and chemicals which could be used in the production of high trajectory weapons (rockets and mortars) by Hamas and other terror groups in Gaza - Fertilizers or other mixtures - specifically containing KCl at more than 5%; Epoxy and Vinyl Ester resins; Hardeners for Epoxy Resins containing Amides or Amines; Accelerators for Vinyl Esters; HTPB; Water purification solutions at concentrations higher than 11%.
ii. Items used as raw materials for improving protection for terror activists - Fibers or woven fabrics containing Carbon or Glass variants.
iii. Vessels.

List No. 2: Construction Items and Materials to be Allowed Entry into Gaza only for PA-authorized Projects Implemented by the International Community
Israel will only permit their entry into Gaza to facilitate construction projects in Gaza which have been authorized by the PA and implemented and monitored by the international community. The often cited reason is that such materials could be used by Hamas for military purposes (building bunkers, fortifying positions and digging tunnels)
This list includes:
Portland cement and lime (in bulk, bags or barrels)
Natural and Quarry aggregates and all varieties of gravel
Ready concrete
Precast concrete elements and products
Steel elements and/or construction products
Iron for foundations and columns, at any diameter (including wielded steel nets)
Steel cables of any width
Forms for construction elements (plastics or galvanized iron)
Industrialized forms for casting concrete
Plastic or composite beams more than 4 mm thick
Thermal isolation materials and products
Blocs (at any width) - Concrete; Silicate; Ytong or its equivalent; or gypsum
Materials and products for sealing structures
Asphalt and its components (Bitumen, emulsion) in aggregate or packaged
Steel elements or framing products for construction
Cast concrete elements and products for drainage over 1 m in diameter
Precast units and sea-borne containers
Vehicles, excluding private cars and including 4X4 vehicles and other categories of motor vehicles liable to be used in terror activities
Lumber beams and boards more than 2 cm thick, (liable to be used in "offensive" tunneling aimed at penetrating Israeli territory), unless incorporated in finished products
Specific procedures, on a case by case basis, will be established so as to permit the transfer of such lumber for other purposes in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 04:04 PM

Israel does all it can to spare them. huh? That's an impressive list, Keith. Pity it doesn't seem to do a good job of keeping out "rocket parts". Stopping them getting in would end the rocketing. I wonder why Israel doesn't do a very good job of stopping them. Fourth largest army in the world supervising such a tiny territory? Hmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 04:28 PM

You think Israel should make its blockade more rigorous Steve.
Many would agree with you.
(but not Jim or Don I think.)

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 04:39 PM

Keith, when one side is armed with one of the world's most advanced military forces, and is occupying other people's land, and imprisoning some of those other people in what amounts to a huge, overcrowded ghetto, and has overwhelming firepower, and the other side has nothing to fight with but handheld weapons and very inaccurate rockets that can only be aimed at a city-sized target...then it is inevitable that the poorly armed side which has no chance at all in a direct military showdown will aim its inaccurate rockets at a generalized target area...just like the British night bombing campaign in WWWII did at German cities...and some civilians will die.

Hamas is fighting in the only way that it is technically feasible for them to fight, because they are not armed with advanced weaponry capable of meeting the Israeli armed forces in conventional combat on the field of battle.

This makes them "terrorists" in your book. Well, that's what the Germans called the poorly armed resistance fighters who resisted German occupation in WWII. They called them "criminals" and "terrorists" and "bandits" for resisting a foreign occupation! The Palestinians are poorly armed people facing a military occupation of much of their land by a vastly superior armed force backed up by a superpower. They are fighting back against that occupation in the only way they can. Anyone else would do the same.

Jews would do the same too if it was happening to them. But it isn't. They're the ones doing it to the Palestinians, and they aren't limited to inaccurate rockets...they have the most advanced weaponry in the world, so of course they can specifically target exactly who they would most wish to. The Palestinians don't have that luxury.

Don't you think they'd gladly aim their fire at the top Israeli chiefs of government and the military if they could, instead of simply targeting a general wide inhabited area, not knowing exactly who will get hit?

They can't be specific in who they target. They don't have advanced enough weapons to do that. So they are striking back in the only way possible for them to do...and on that basis, you call them "terrorists". They are the ones being terrorized, way beyond what people in Israel are suffering, although people in Israel are certainly suffering too. They, as well as Palestinians, are victims of Netanyahu's insane imperial policy.

This isn't about "anti-semitism". It's about the wrongfullness of forcefully taking other people's land. That's wrong no matter who does it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:09 PM

It's amazing how the US and UK go around pushing "democracy" but when these countries exercise democracy and folks are elected that we don't like then we want to bust their balls...

Hey, did ya ever think that folks elsewhere don't much like a lot of the folks that we elect???

As for Hamas??? Yeah, it does some bad stuff... But it does a lot of good stuff... You know, just like our government...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:25 PM

""he still can't see why that is such an objectionable locution in every way, and confirms my prediction that he would not be at all ashamed of using it; which only makes me very very very sorry for him and his lack of empathy and sensitivity and other such attributes which he lamentably lacks.""

While I would generally shy away from using the phrase itself Mike, you must admit that Israel has rather heavily played upon their victim status, not just to gain sympathy which would be quite acceptable and deserved, but also to justify their nastier propensities to mistreat others on the "well look what was done to us" basis.

In that respect the "user becoming an abuser" comment is to my mind correct.

One can go too far in making allowances and condone the unjustifiable, don't you think?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:48 PM

Interesting that Keith's list of restrictive control follows closely on his mutiple claims of "NO restrictions", and also that integral to those two lists is the banning of anythging that would make it more difficult to kill Gazans both militant and civilian.

Such concern for the minimising of "collateral damage" would be touching indeed were it not for Israeli soldiers' accounts such as ""We shoot at anybody walking in the dark. We shoot at the torso (i.e. to kill). It doesn't matter if they are civilians or terrorists, the report will say "We killed six terrorists today".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:50 PM

Excellent post, Little Hawk.

Mike juxtaposed a regime that has managed to kill 20 Jews in ten years with one that killed six million in far less time. I repeat: that sort of hyperbole plays right into the hands of the very worst kind of Zionist. It is not an appropriate allusion and I'm justified in calling it playing the Holocaust card in order to demonise Hamas, whether that was Michael's intention or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 05:50 PM

Bobert, Hamas got itself elected, like Hitler did, and then like Hitler it killed the opposition and did away with elections and democracy.
It is friends with Assad and the kind of regime the Arab Spring has been about.

Littlehawk, Hamas is even more anti-Semetic than Hitler.
It is dedicated to to murder of all Jews everywhere, not just Palestine.
Israel has returned Gaza to the Gazans.
There is no theft of gazan land, sadly in many ways because life in Gaza is much harder than it was under Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: bobad
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 06:23 PM

"a regime that has managed to kill 20 Jews in ten years"

Only because of the preventives employed by Israel - if they could they would happily kill 6 million.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 07:34 PM

Yes, sound reasoning Little Hawk. And thank you, bobad, for reminding us which party is the bully and which the victim.

MtheM, what's wrong with it being pointed out if you, or anyone else, plays the Holocaust card? Is there some confusion about what the accusation means? For me it means gratuitous exploitation of the Holocaust to secure advantage in legitimate debate. That's what I thought you were doing. It is certainly what Keith was doing earlier in the thread.

Somewhere above I posted a link to Norman Finkelstein's take on this. Using the suffering of the Holocaust's victims to justify Israel's present-day atrocities was, he said, despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 07:47 PM

Well, bobad et al., we've had voices in Israel calling for the razing of the Gaza Strip, that Gaza should be nuked, etc., but I'm not going to tar every Israeli with those brushes. Likewise, if you have evidence that the people of Gaza wish to see every Jew killed, or that they would continue to support Hamas even if by some miracle they managed to kill as many Israelis as the Israelis killed Gazans in Cast Lead and Pillar of Defense (well over 1500 in case you've forgotten), then let's have it. Two things prevent Hamas from killing millions of Jews. First, they will never in a month of Sundays accumulate a thousandth of the fire-power required (did I really need to tell you that?). Second, neither the Gazan people nor most of their Arab neighbours would even begin to countenance a mass slaughter of Jews. Now maybe you think Hamas are stupid enough not to realise these things. But if Hamas were really so stupid we wouldn't even be talking about them, would we. The Hamas "charter" is a load of bollocks, very embarrassing to people like me I'm the first to admit, idiotic and intemperate in every way - but a load of bollocks. You know it and Hamas know it. Why would they have their leading man negotiating a long term ceasefire if they didn't know it? But as things stand they can't drop it, because Israel has treated its people in Gaza so brutally that Hamas cannot at this point even consider standing down from that pledge as it would indicate weakness to their people. Yep, plenty of hubris there all right, but in this situation, in which Israel is acting with petulance and showing even greater hubris (no-one as yet in the west prepared to bring them down, which is what fuels them), Hamas, in the eyes of the Gazan people, has to stand firm. It's bloody stupid but it's war innit. Give Hamas something to talk about, give the Gazans the real prospect of peace tinged with a little prosperity, and show the West Bank Palestinians that there is compromise in the air (not Keith-compromise, but the real McCoy - hand some settlements back, lift the road blocks, dismantle the apartheid wall), and Hamas will quietly disregard that stupid pledge of theirs. Not because they'll want to necessarily, but because the Palestinians, especially in Gaza, will force them to. I haven't lived in Gaza but I can guarantee that the people there are sick to the back teeth of all this and they will not support a Hamas that appears to be prolonging the misery for what the people see as purely ideological motives. We will talk to Hamas! It's up to us to decide how many more people have to die before we do. Not up to Hamas, who have proved that they're next to bloody useless at killing people.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:01 PM

"They [Israelis], as well as Palestinians, are victims of Netanyahu's insane imperial policy."

At last my friend is back.

The problem is one of understanding. If you don't know your friend you have no friend. If you don't know your enemy, you have an enemy for life. I don't know which is worse.

###############

I would suggest also that not only is Netanyahu off the wall, but so too is the Palestinian leadership. Allegories and syllogisms pertaining to the state of Israel have no base in reality. Few people here are interested in peace. What I see is folks emulating the same situation that exists in the mid-East. Mirror image.

I have on this thread seen the same hatred that has grown in the mid-East, prompted by racial dislike, politics and greed. Those who support Israel care little for filthy Arabs who are homeless (or at least in homes they don't want), and people who support Palestine care little for filthy Jews who are homeless (or at least in homes they don't want). IMO, you both should be ashamed of yourselves.

Idiots who think Iran has no hand in this, or USA, Russia, China, UK, France, Germany, Arab countries that have more fucking money than Carter had Little Liver Pills but do not support their Palestinian brothers and sisters . . . are you fucking stupid???

What many seem to miss is the end situation: this is no 'economic cliff' shit. This is one of the most terrible realities the world has faced since 1962. I do not care for your collective racism, your politics or your pretensions. I do care for my family and friends.

Fuck Allah and fuck God.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:09 PM

You think Israel should make its blockade more rigorous Steve.
Many would agree with you.
(but not Jim or Don I think.)

No Keith. But I was insinuating, invidiously of course, that the Israeli leadership, perversely, might actually see some advantage in allowing a few rockets to be fired. That makes it so much easier to continue to demonise Hamas, to say that they're terrorists and we don't talk to terrorists. A few rocket-free years, charter or no charter, would make things a bit awkward for Israel. Those rockets at least put off the day when Israel will have to talk to Hamas. To offer them something real. Because of that unconditional US aid, Israel knows it doesn't have to offer anything. In fact, rather than give anything, Israel wants to carry on taking, as it has shown this week. Compromise is the last thing on their minds. Two years have passed with no real impulse to talk, and the talks before that turning out to be total shams, acts of great dishonesty on the part of Israel and the US. I'm sure Israeli leaders don't want rockets raining down on their people. But que sera sera, and they do serve that useful purpose, at least while they're not killing too many Israelis. Of course, all this is rotten conjecture, me getting all conspiratorial. But it's a thought, eh? Amazing what the ruthless and expedient will get up to in wars...Dresden...

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:22 PM

Oh, so now Hamas are Nazis, Keith???

Let's quit with that line of debate... It is juvenilistic...

Hamas has a ton of support and has won elections by Palestinians...

Let's buck up and deal with them and keep in mind that one groups freedom fighter is another's terrorist...

We need to play the hand we have and not the one we wished we had...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 08:39 PM

I regard the vast number of civilians on both sides of the Middle East conflict as victims of the ruthless political/financial games that are being played by the governments and politicians on both sides.

Most people anywhere would be content to live in peace alongside others and just be left alone to do so. I think this is probably true of most Israeli and most Arab and most Palestinian civilians, not to mention most Iranians.

And most of us, for that matter. We'd all just like to be left alone.

After a war's been going for awhile, though, community relations deteriorate. Communities that formerly lived in friendship on the same land end up fearing and truly hating each other, and then anything can happen. That's been seen in the former Yugoslavia. It was seen in the USA during the Civil War. But it doesn't start with the ordinary people. It starts with the politicians and military leaders who take orders from politicians. It starts with the people at the top, and then it spreads like a disease that infects a whole population.

Think how long Ireland went through that! Think how many suffered because of it. Without true peacemakers (people who want peace for all, not a one-sided victory for themselves) at the top of the chain of command, there is no hope of resolving such disputes...and endless recriminations about who did what to whom in the past won't help one bit. At some point the cycle of vengeance must stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 09:11 PM


Most people anywhere would be content to live in peace alongside others and just be left alone to do so. I think this is probably true of most Israeli and most Arab and most Palestinian civilians, not to mention most Iranians.

And most of us, for that matter. We'd all just like to be left alone.

Exactly. That has to be the starting point. We're all duped by our politicians and the Israelis and Palestinians are no different. They are where they are by accident of birth only and there are good people and bloody scallywags on both sides just like everywhere else. Israel needs to feel the chill wind of isolation so that its people will reject the hubris of its leaders who simply act to perpetuate their insecurity. The Palestinians have got justifiable grievances but they must get their act together and show that they can talk as a unified body of people without threatening the other side (not that the other side would be much inclined to listen, but I do believe that the ground is beginning to shift a little).

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 09:23 PM

Oops, lost me italics there. You know what you're reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 09:34 PM

Yup. Well said, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:13 AM

Bobert, Hamas' ideology can reasonably be described as Fascist.
Like Hitler they were elected with huge support in Gaza, but we can not say they still have support having brought death, destruction and six years of hardship.
The opposition who did not flee were all killed.
No free press.
No more elections.

Steve, you can call their prclamations bollocks because it makes your case ridiculous, but there is no reason not to believe them.
All there actions bear it out.
They would happily kill all 6 million Jews in Israel, and Iran is supplying ever better weapons and missiles for the job.
Soon nuclear.

Wake up and smell the Zyklon B.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:34 AM

Don and Jim wonder why there are shortages when Israel makes no restriction on imports of food, medicine and humanitarian supplies.
Some times incompetence, inter-Palestinian disputes, but sometimes because the cossing are closed.
Not by Israeli intansigence.
The crossing are a source of essential supplies for Gazans, but also of Jews to kill, and that is a much higher priority for Hamas.
Karni for instance.

The Karni terminal has been attacked several times by Palestinian terrorists since the beginning of the al-Aqsa Intifada, in either mortar attacks or frontal infantry assaults, forcing temporary shut-downs for repairs and enhancement of security procedures. Both Palestinians and Israelis have been killed in these attacks. As a passage point between Israel and the Gaza Strip, the Karni crossing has been used for hostile activities by armed forces from the Palestinian side. Palestinian terrorists have used the Karni terminal to smuggle suicide bombers and explosive belts into Israel. The deadliest suicide attack to come via Karni was the Port of Ashdod bombing.[4][5]

In 2006, the Israeli authorities closed the crossing for over 100 days, after the discovery of vast tunnelling from across the border to underneath the facility, meant to be filled with explosives and detonated.[6] From September 2006 to June 2007, the crossing has been open daily save some brief closures due to Palestinian labour strikes.[7]

When Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, much of the equipment on the Palestinian side was destroyed, and the terminal was closed by the Israeli authorities. The previous operators, who were affiliated with Fatah, have fled to the West Bank. Hamas has offered to bring Fatah back to Karni or hire a Turkish company to operate the Palestinian side, but Israel persistently refused to deal with Hamas, the de facto authority in the Gaza Strip. In June 2007, the UNWRA coordinator commended the IDF on moving humanitarian shipments to the secondary Kerem Shalom and Sufa crossings,

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:52 AM

The objection to the term "Holocaust card" is the implication that one is playing some sort of game, not taking the matter entirely seriously, making false and frivolous comparisons, in urging one's arguments in what one might call "Godwin's Law'" type evocations. I genuinely do not think that those who use it recognise the insidious way that 20s-30s Germany developed, with nobody taking the situation, the threats, the posturing of that funny little man with the moustache, seriously, until it was too late. He would kill every Jew in the world if ever he had the power, would he? Well, ho ho ho. And now here is another entity making exactly the same vow, and here you all are saying, they don't really mean it, it's just bravado to keep their supporters onside, just sit down & talk to them & you'll find the are all really quite nice reasonable people after all…

It just so happens that all three of our leading British Jewish comedians, Stephen Fry, David Baddiel and Ben Elton, are also quite distinguished novelists; and all have written serious novels dealing with the events in Germany & Europe 1920s-40s: Fry's Making History, Baddiel's The Secret Purposes, Elton's Two Brothers. Read back-to-back, as I have done recently, they give an excellent view of the dangers of not taking such rhetoric seriously until it is too late. Try them, Steve. And then regret the use of the term "Holocaust card", which really is not quite the thing…

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:03 AM

I don't condone what Hamas does. I do understand it. Gaza is a concentration camp and the blockade is an act of terrorism. Israel and its supporters, including many on this forum, make no secret that they would like to see the Palestinians move to Jordan or Egypt or Lebanon. It is no secret that the government of Israel is trying to get them to self deport. They don't want to be driven from their homes by terrorism. I wouldn't either.

Who shot first is not the underlying cause of the conflict. Western Zionism is.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:15 AM

Israel and its supporters, including many on this forum, make no secret that they would like to see the Palestinians move to Jordan or Egypt or Lebanon.

I think you may be wrong.
Please support that statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:40 AM

"I think you may be wrong."
You support your statement
There has been a call by the extremist parties to cut off Palestinian water and electricity
Jim Carroll

"......proposal was also made by Gilad Sharon, son of the former prime minister, who said that Gaza should be "flattened" like Hiroshima in WW II. Last weekend, Israeli deputy prime minister Eli Yishai, said: "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for forty years."
http://www.juancole.com/2012/11/gaza-israeli-rightists-propose-cutting-water-electricity-but-oppose-ground-op-osc.html

Nothing new here
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israel-cuts-electricity-and-food-supplies-gaza-20080121

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:49 AM

The claim was "Israel and its supporters, including many on this forum" want Palestinians deported.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:12 AM

Gaza is not a state. It is an Israeli death camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:26 AM

""Without true peacemakers (people who want peace for all, not a one-sided victory for themselves) at the top of the chain of command, there is no hope of resolving such disputes...and endless recriminations about who did what to whom in the past won't help one bit.""

Spot on LH! And the very first step toward that aim is the admission by the supporters of both sides, and the protagonists themselves, that NEITHER is free of blame.

If we can't achieve that here, what chance where the bombs and shells and the rockets are exploding.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:29 AM

It could have been a state, Jack. It was cleared of all Jewish settlements, much to the chagrin of the settlers and most Israelis, to make way for an independent, democratic Palestinan enclave with a border to Egypt. The thanks the Israelis got for that was the election of Hamas, with the consequent murderous hostilities unleashed on the surrounding Israeli population and as far as Tel-Aviv & Jerusalem. And then you, Jack, Jim, the rest of you, object to Israeli attempts to contain it and limit the damage, and call it an "Israeli death camp". Try reading the books I mentioned in my last post, smartypants, to find out what a 'death camp' really was; and hang your head in shame {huh ~ fat chance!}.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:32 AM

Its tough. If you take the Old Testament literally, you root for Israel to prevail. But that is our choice; Live in the 21st century with our present concepts of human rights, equality and justice, or in the 6th century BC.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:35 AM

Bit of a cross post there. I won't be hanging my head. I'm living in this century. I won't support a modern day Joshua carrying out a biblical genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:43 AM

And still Israel promises more settlements - as an act of revenge for Palestine putting a new "fact on the ground" - its recognition. Those are (more) illegal invasions.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:28 AM

I believe that if Israel did exterminate or force out every Palestinian, Keith and Bobad would still call it self defence, and of course BB would tag along as usual.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:29 AM

I am by no means defending that, please note, Richard. I consider their expansionism insufferable. The olive-groves atrocity which was what originally alienated me from any further support for and identification with Israel, was all a part of their avid land-greed. And the behaviour of some of their soldiers during 'searches' of civilian accommodation [tho gallantly denounced by some of their own comrades], as instanced in Lox's link on that other thread, has alienated me even further, so that I can no longer really participate in this Gaza/Hamas controversy. Except to add that Jack is accusing the wrong side of genocidal aspirations, it seems to me. I really can't see where the Walls of Jericho come into the argument whatever.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:49 AM

you obviously have not read the Book of Joshua.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:52 AM

Ah ~~ perhaps you have me there Jack. I must have done at some time, but it's probably 60+ years ago. I can't be bothered to do so again right this minute, so will cede that point to you. Still think that any intentions which could be reasonably be described as 'genocidal' are on the other side, mind.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:57 AM

Jack, why are you bringing up the Book of Joshua into this discussion.
It is thousands of years old.
Does it support your claim, "Israel and its supporters, including many on this forum" want Palestinians deported. ?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 06:49 AM

Bobert, Hamas' ideology can reasonably be described as Fascist.
Like Hitler they were elected with huge support in Gaza, but we can not say they still have support having brought death, destruction and six years of hardship.
The opposition who did not flee were all killed.
No free press.
No more elections.

Steve, you can call their prclamations bollocks because it makes your case ridiculous, but there is no reason not to believe them.
All there actions bear it out.
They would happily kill all 6 million Jews in Israel, and Iran is supplying ever better weapons and missiles for the job.
Soon nuclear.

Demonising, scaremongering bollocks, Keith.

Wake up and smell the Zyklon B.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 06:49 AM

Oops again at the end there.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 06:51 AM

Why am I not surprised that you haven't read it Keith? Read it. Count the genocides.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:00 AM

But what is the relevance Jack?

Steve, you can not challenge anything in my post.
Hamas demonize themselves.
How can you defend their racial violence and aspiration to genocide?
How can you dismiss what they say, and what they do?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:06 AM

The objection to the term "Holocaust card" is the implication that one is playing some sort of game, not taking the matter entirely seriously, making false and frivolous comparisons, in urging one's arguments in what one might call "Godwin's Law'" type evocations.

Well not at all. Now it's you being facile in comparing a perfectly metaphorical expression with a game. The objection is that you brought in the comparison in order to make a debating point which I considered to be inappropriate. Whatever Hamas say, they are not anything like in the position that Hitler was in during the 30s. They are a tiny group in charge of a tiny territory. They are dependent on a trickle of smuggled ramshackle weapons parts. In spite of what Keith said, they did not get the support of anything like the majority of Gazans. In another post somewhere I estimated that about a quarter of all Gazans (it's a very young country with about half too young to vote, and the opposition got almost as many votes as Hamas) actually cast their ballots for Hamas. Hamas is not so much an indigenous uprising as an offshoot of a much larger outside faction that will not allow them to behave like Nazis. And the Gazan people themselves, not to speak of the rest of the Palestinians, will not allow them to behave like Nazis. We've seen in the last couple of years that the climate in the Arab middle east is no longer conducive to the perpetuation of dictatorships that get too big for their boots. You made an entirely false and tendentious link with Hitler. I'm sorry I hit a raw nerve but you did ask for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:14 AM

I've challenged just about everything you ever say, Keith, in loads of posts. It's just that you don't listen and I'm not a parrot. Perhaps you should use those flapping ears not just to learn to fly as Don suggested but also to listen to what people say.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:17 AM

I meant to say perfectly good metaphorical expression.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:17 AM

Jewish holy book. Jewish state. No no relevance at all. My mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:31 AM

Forget it Jack.
We are all getting older.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:50 AM

Thank you, Steve; I know a metaphor when I see one: I shouldn't be too patronising as to figures of speech recognition towards one who was in senior posts teaching English for 30 years, if I were you. It's just that I think that particular one a most distressingly trivialising and dismissive metaphorical expression for a serious concept. Nor do I imagine, & nor did I anywhere express the view, that Hamas could develop that sort of power ~~ though with some organised assistance from other Muslim entities worldwide, who can tell? ~~ But that they have expressed similar *aspirations and intentions* is undeniable; the previous expression of which intentions by that funny little man in Munich were not initially taken seriously either. No doubt, they all thought - Halifax, Chamberlain, all that pathetic gang - that even if he did get power, we could just sit and talk reasonably to him and guarantee 'peace in our time"; just as some well-meaning people on this thread have suggested would happen, an accommodation would be achieved, if only we could just get Hamas to the table. I don't think you yourself have actually made any such fatuous prognostication, Steve. But do you really think such might happen? Honest, now!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:57 AM

How can you defend their racial violence and aspiration to genocide?
How can you dismiss what they say, and what they do?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: bobad
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:01 AM

"How can you defend their racial violence and aspiration to genocide?
How can you dismiss what they say, and what they do?"

Isn't it obvious?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:19 AM

Don,

I think you are either misinformed, or a deliberate liar.

You state:
"In point of fact, every Israeli lives on Arab land which, by whatever means, was stolen from them initially."

How did the Arabs get ownership of the land?

Historically, the people the Jews got the land from post-Exodus were NOT Arab.
There were Jews living in what became the Mandate Palestine before it was formed- who had lived there for generations.
Much of the land that was settled post Mandate was purchased from the owners, or was public land that the British Mandate Authority opened for Jewish settlement.
There were Jews living on the West bank for as long.
There are Israelis who are NOT Jews.

When YOU address the land rights of the GREATER NUMBER of Jews driven out of Arab lands
1948- 1967 you might get some claim to being fair-minded- until then , you show a bias and a willingness to falsify the facts to "prove" your opinion.


"Thus it is obvious you are not in touch with reality or the truth."





"I believe that if Israel did exterminate or force out every Palestinian, Keith and Bobad would still call it self defence, and of course BB would tag along as usual."

Yet you are willing to accept the removal of Jews from Arab lands, including long-term settlements on the West Bank, and claim it is justified. Sounds like YOU are the one who favors "ethnic cleansing", as long as it is Jews that are removed... Now, who else has proposed that sort of thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:26 AM

Don,

BTW, I grew up across the street from a Palestinian family. They had been one of the 6 major families in Ramallah- AND WERE DRIVEN OUT IN 1948 BY THE ARABS. They were Christian, and had been living there for hundreds of years. Yet you claim their land belongs to people who moved in in 1948 and drove them off.

As for genocide and ethnic cleansing, take a look at the populations of Jews, others, and Moslims in the region circa 1900, 1920, 1948, and now- and then tell me whether it is Israel or the Arab nations who have been performing such.

Of course, since that requires FACTS to be looked at, I doubt if you will consider it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:34 AM

Guardian, 23rd December 2011.


Of the 1.5 million Palestinians now living in the Gaza Strip, fewer than 1,400 are Christian and those who can are leaving. The church hopes reconciliation will bring them back.

There hasn't been a Christmas tree in Gaza City's main square since Hamas pushed the Palestinian Authority out of Gaza in 2007 and Christmas is no longer a public holiday.

Imad Jelda is an Orthodox Christian who runs a youth training centre in Gaza City. With unemployment hovering at 23%, he has seen young Christian men leave to study and work abroad in their droves. "People here do not celebrate Christmas anymore because they are nervous," Jelda said. "The youth in particular have a fear inside themselves."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:35 AM

Indeed, Don; BB is right. It never was "Arab land", as such. It was part of the Ottoman Empire from the 16C until the British Mandate from the League of Nations which lasted until 1948. Such ethnic Arabs as lived there did so by the will & pleasure of the Turks, but it was never any sort of 'state' or 'nation' which they governed or controlled. It was largely permitted, especially in the Southern Negev desert, to degenerate into uncultivated wilderness, where nobody, Arab or other, could live, until revived by Jewish settlers using modern agricultural techniques. Who should have the moral entitlement to those parts, do you think?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:43 AM

NY Post, Dec 25 2009
Fifty years ago, Christians made up 70 percent of Bethlehem's population; today, about 15 percent.

Indeed, the Christian population of the entire West Bank -- mostly Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic, with Copts, Russian Orthodox, Armenians and others -- is dwindling.

But, again, the story's the same in Egypt, Iraq and elsewhere in the Mideast. Practically the only place in the region where the Christian population is growing is in Israel.

In Bethlehem, Christians now feel besieged. Growing numbers of rural southern West Bankers from the Hebron area have moved north to Bethlehem in recent years. Many see the land as Waqf -- belonging to the Muslim nation. They increasingly buy or confiscate land -- and talk of laws to ban Christian landownership.

Seeing the trend, many Christians have decided to sell while they still can; real estate is leaving families that have owned it for generations.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: bobad
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:45 AM

"Who should have the moral entitlement to those parts, do you think?"

Anyone but Jews it would seem.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:50 AM

Bruce - there is no legitimate path of legal entitlement from the Ottoman Empire to Israel. Those with the best claim to the lands in that region which are no longer part of Turkey are those who lived there - who were predominantly Arab. Any minute now you will tell us that the lost ten tribes are entitled to return home!

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:57 AM

Richard ~ Do you then deny any 'legitimacy' to United Nations resolutions? It was one of those that established Israel, in a direct 'path' of Ottoman Empire ···> British League of Nations Mandate ···> UN Resolution of 1948.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:57 AM

Richard you are a lawyer, and perhaps a good one, but are you sure you know better than all those employed by the UN about the legality of the creation of Israel?
Have you studied the legal arguments employed, or just making uninformed, glib, random statements that you wish were true?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:09 AM

Richard,

"Those with the best claim to the lands in that region which are no longer part of Turkey are those who lived there - who were predominantly Arab. Any minute now you will tell us that the lost ten tribes are entitled to return home!"

So the Arabs who moved in a few hundred years ago have a definitive claim, while the Jews who remained there, and the ones who were forcibly removed, have no claim even though their possession predates the Arabs?

And then you say that the Arabs are the owners because their claim predates the Mandate??????



You need to decide if possession is ownership-
if so, the Israelis possess it NOW.

If armed conquest is NOT valid, then the Jews own it from prior possession.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:25 AM

""How can you dismiss what they say, and what they do?""

A typical Keith "have you stopped beating your wife?" question, which tries to disguise the fact that it is a devious way of merging two, such that any answer must be half wrong.

First, what they do! Nobody here is condoning what they DO! We have repeatedly said we deplore their actions, and it is deceitful to continue implying otherwise, so if you can't grasp that concept STFU.

Second, what they say! This is a country which lacks even those out of date technologies which allowed the Germans to make war, and the little they do have has been bombed, shelled and shot back to Mediaeval state. No matter what they say, only a complete imbecile would believe that they possess, or ever will possess, the means to turn that daft rhetoric into effective action.

We are talking about them threatening to destroy a major nuclear power with every latest technology, funded by the worlds biggest superpower.

Do you ever stop to consider the tripe you post Keith, in between your bouts of blind adoration of the government and army which is the world's most dangerous delinquent.

But of course you don't! Israel could murder every Arab in existence and you would still defend their right to do so.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:44 AM

You need to decide if possession is ownership-

You bet Bruce - "Finders keepers, loosers weepers" I'd forgotten about that tenet of International Law.

Also legitimizes what was done to the Native American populations in North America.

Pretty handy.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:47 AM

So, GregF,

You agree that the Arabs have no right to the area, since they took it force/

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:50 AM

""Yet you are willing to accept the removal of Jews from Arab lands, including long-term settlements on the West Bank, and claim it is justified. Sounds like YOU are the one who favors "ethnic cleansing", as long as it is Jews that are removed... Now, who else has proposed that sort of thing?""

Once again Bruce you have both feet in your big mouth.

I challenge you to put up any post in which I made any such suggestion, or failing that (and you WILL fail) I expect you to be man enough to admit it and apologise.

What I have said, is that Israel should retire into its legal borders, and vacate the illegal settlements in the West Bank. And in that most of the world concurs. Those settlements are recognised internationally to be illegal and should not be retained.

That is not ethnic cleansing. It is redress of grievance.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:51 AM

Thank you, Steve; I know a metaphor when I see one: I shouldn't be too patronising as to figures of speech recognition towards one who was in senior posts teaching English for 30 years, if I were you.

Good job you're not me then, innit. I'm confident enough in the use of English not to be cowed even by such a "senior" as yourself (and, after 30 years of it, you must be exceptionally senior indeed by now).

~~ But that they have expressed similar *aspirations and intentions* is undeniable; the previous expression of which intentions by that funny little man in Munich were not initially taken seriously either.

And you won't hear me denying it either. But, when you consider Hamas's lack of potential for expansionism, for getting the firepower to defeat the world's fourth largest army (and one in possession of nuclear weapons at that) and the undeniable fact that the rest of the Arab world would never allow them to become an imperialist regional bully, your alignment of Hamas with Hitler looks like a big mistake. You'd be a lot closer to the mark if you aligned them not with the funny little man in Munich but with the funny little old soak down our boozer who also hates Jews. He has a moustache too.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:55 AM

Don

YOUR POST:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T - PM
Date: 03 Dec 12 - 01:17 PM

""Yet he has never supported any claim BY Israelis on territory.""

That might possibly be because the Arabs are not illegally grabbing Israeli land, which, in the West Bank, area is exactly what the Israelis are doing to Arab land, d'ye think?

In point of fact, every Israeli lives on Arab land which, by whatever means, was stolen from them initially.

They certainly didn't send out invitations.

What planet are you posting from BB?

Don T.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:57 AM

""As for genocide and ethnic cleansing, take a look at the populations of Jews, others, and Moslims in the region circa 1900, 1920, 1948, and now- and then tell me whether it is Israel or the Arab nations who have been performing such.""

Diving into ancient history can be dodgy.

Who do you suppose was living in that land when Joshua brought the whole hebrew nation over its border?

Was their permission sought, or were they just swept aside?

Of course, by Jesus' time (if he existed in fact) Arabs and Jews were living side by side in comparative harmony.

Ignoring the biblical bullshit, what set the jews off to wandering again. Does anybody really know?

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 09:58 AM

"I challenge you to put up any post in which I made any such suggestion, or failing that (and you WILL fail) I expect you to be man enough to admit it and apologise."


YOUR POST:


"In point of fact, every Israeli lives on Arab land which, by whatever means, was stolen from them initially."



No mention of conditions- JUST "EVERY ISRAELI"


I expect the apology from you immediately.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:02 AM

"That is not ethnic cleansing. It is redress of grievance.'


What was ethnic cleansing was the driving out of Jews from Arab lands, INCLUDING the West Bank.

Have you looked at the p[opulation figures for 1900, 1920, 1947, qnd now?


WHICH NATIONS DO YOU SEE PERFORMING ETHNIC CLEANSING???

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:23 AM

"WHICH NATIONS DO YOU SEE PERFORMING ETHNIC CLEANSING???"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Gaza_War

Er - let me see now - one, two, three, four......
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:28 AM

"you must be exceptionally senior indeed by now)"
.,,.,.
I am actually long retired, Steve; as to "exceptionally senior", I am 80, so I suppose senior enough!

You commented on the truculent tone of one of my posts a bit back. I rejoin in kind that I think your last was perhaps a bit more hostile than entirely warranted.

I have already acknowledged that the potential of Hamas to cause the sort of harm suggested is not great; but you have not taken on board my points: that the same appeared to be true of that poor scribbling convict in Landsberg Prison in 1924, allied with the fact that we do not know what sort of support might be forthcoming in the future from other segments of the international Muslim world; which might suggest that it would be foolish to discount the fact that all bets may be open.

I do not consider your "undeniable fact that the rest of the Arab world would never allow them to become an imperialist regional bully" to be undeniably factual at all. What are your grounds for this assertion? I should think the opposite would be the greater likelihood, if circumstances should so conduce.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 10:57 AM

""I challenge you to put up any post in which I made any such suggestion, or failing that (and you WILL fail) I expect you to be man enough to admit it and apologise."


YOUR POST:


"In point of fact, every Israeli lives on Arab land which, by whatever means, was stolen from them initially."



No mention of conditions- JUST "EVERY ISRAELI"""

So who was living there before the exodus Buce. You wanted to delve into history.

And, you numbskull, point to the bit where I said that they should be removed as you claimed.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:01 AM

we do not know what sort of support might be forthcoming in the future from other segments of the international Muslim world; which might suggest that it would be foolish to discount the fact that all bets may be open.

The "international Muslim world" is incredibly fractured; there is no single burgeoning, malevolent entity as there was in Germany. You might as well go on about threats from the "international Christian world". Hamas's Achilles' heel is not even this, though. It is that their own people would never countenance an ideologically-driven rout of the Jews. It's all fantasy, Michael. Keep your feet on the ground and your head out of the clouds.

I do not consider your "undeniable fact that the rest of the Arab world would never allow them to become an imperialist regional bully" to be undeniably factual at all. What are your grounds for this assertion?

See above. And we are in danger of taking our eyes off the ball here. Look out for that nice Mr Erdogan. The EU may yet come to regret the shunning of Turkey. They have an alternative, unlike Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:45 AM

'See above.'

I have seen above, Steve. All I can find 'above' that addresses the question is

'It is that their own people would never countenance an ideologically-driven rout of the Jews'

which is pretty well exactly what you said last time {"the rest of the Arab world would never allow them to become an imperialist regional bully"} in slightly different words. No use, when I ask you to justify an assertion, simply repeating it in a slightly louder voice. You rather remind me of a nice bit I always enjoy in John Gross's excellent history of Lit Crit, 'The Rise And Fall Of The English Man Of Letters', where he refers to F R Leavis's "faintly absurd air of having conclusively demonstrated what has merely been vigorously asserted": precisely what you have done here.

Now, once again ~~ justify the assertion that "the rest of the Arab world would never allow them to become an imperialist regional bully".
Justify it, I say again, rather than simply repeating it in slightly altered form.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:40 PM

Don T. - You asked "what set the Jews off to wandering again. Does anybody really know?"

I'm surprised you would have to ask that.

Yeah, sure people know. The Roman Empire set them off to wandering again when they crushed the various Jewish rebellions against Roman rule in the first and second centuries C.E.

The Jewish–Roman wars were a series of large-scale revolts by the Jews of Judaea Province and the Eastern Mediterranean against the Roman Empire. Some sources use the term to refer only to the First Jewish–Roman War (66–73 CE) and Bar Kokhba revolt (132–135 CE) while others include the Kitos War (115–117) as one of the Jewish–Roman wars, although this revolt started among the Jewish diaspora in Cyrenaica, and only its final stages were actually fought within Judaea Province.

The Jewish-Roman wars had an epic impact on the Jews, turning them from a major population in the Eastern Mediterranean into a scattered and persecuted minority. The events also had a major impact on Judaism, as the central worship site of Judaism, the Temple in Jerusalem, was destroyed by Titus' troops. Although the Samaritans gained some sort of autonomy in the 4th century and the Jews later succeeded in establishing the short-lived Sassanid Jewish Commonwealth in 614 CE, Jewish dominance in parts of the Southern Levant was regained only in the mid-20th century, with the founding of Israel in 1948.

Just as an aside, I find it kind of interesting that many of the classic symbols of the Roman Empire have been adopted ever since by other dominant military empires...symbols such as the Fasces (used by both Fascist Italy and the USA...see the American dime for one use of it)...the winged (or not) female Liberty figure...and the stylized Eagle (used extensively by all the Germanic peoples, Imperial Russia, and of course the USA and numerous others). A number of these empires have come down hard on the Jews at one time or another. One of them, the USA, is presently allying itself with the new Israel and is coming down hard on the Muslims instead. There have, of course, been many wars already between the Christians and the Muslims, so that's an old story.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:40 PM

"You agree that the Arabs have no right to the area, since they took it force"

I don't think that they did. The converted much of the existing population, albeit some by force. The descendants of those conquered people have the best claim to the land.

While Bruce is correct that there were SOME Jews in Palestine before the Zionist movement started resettling, the vast majority of the present Jewish population are immigrants and their descendants.

As far as "the right of conquest" BB speaks of. Israel's current leadership still has blood on its hands for the lands they took and the UN Mandate has been invalidated because only the provisions convenient to Israel have been upheld. Witness the blockade of Gaza, and the military occupation of the West Bank of the Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:45 PM

But there is no UN Mandate, is there, Jack?, because the Arab states refused the offered partition and tried to overturn it by force of arms.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:46 PM

I have justified it. Wassup with you? And if you'd listened first time I wouldn't have to repeat myself. OK, so what evidence have you got that Hamas wish to take over the region? No faction within the Arab world has ever shown the slightest inclination to do so (and please don't give me that war-on-terror-al-Qaeda crap). Do you really think that the people of Gaza are going to stand by while they get the shite bombed out of them as Hamas pursue relentlessly their ideology (which they can't anyway and never will be able to)? It is scaremongering. There is simply no scope for it. But I bet they don't think that about us.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:48 PM

No you haven't, Steve. You are just "vigorously asserting" again. Go on, commune with yourself. Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 12:58 PM

Every person who is born on a piece of land has the right to live there in equality with other people, regardless of his or her ethnic background. That's just a natural fact of life.

But people who emigrate TO a distant piece of land with the intention of establishing a new political state there, a state identified as belonging officially to their own ethnicity (as opposed to the other ethnic groups already living there), and who then attempt to expand their conquest into the neighbouring lands, further displacing the local inhabitants, do not have any moral right to do so.

Should they succeed, however, their children who are born upon that land do have the right to live there...just as a natural fact of life. What I'm saying is: the children are not responsible for the misdeeds of their forefathers.

Therefore, though I think that the original Zionist act of creating the modern state of Israel was morally wrong and was unjustifiable by any kind of standard...I do recognize that the many Israelis who have grown up in that state since DO have the right to continue living there in peace. They just don't have the right to keep on grabbing and settling on MORE land outside the original established (1948) borders of the state of Israel. They should return the occupied lands. The Palestinians and other Muslims (and Christians) in the area should officially recognize Israel's right to exist. Palestinians should be compensated in some way for having been displaced and robbed of much of their land and heritage since 1948.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:06 PM

Looking again at your last post, Steve: you really are a bit confused, me old dear.

First of all we have

"What evidence have you got that Hamas wish to take over the region?"

then

"Do you really think that the people of Gaza are going to stand by while they get the shite bombed out of them as Hamas pursue relentlessly their ideology"

Now, what 'ideology' would that be in your 2nd quote, if not the one you deny they have in the first quote?

Hmmmm?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:35 PM

Their ideology as I understand it is to wipe out the state of Israel. That is not the same as wanting to take over the region (Christ knows why I have to tell you this, actually). Hamas taking over the region would mean their taking over Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. Self-evidently, they are not the same thing. Michael, Hamas are neither going to take over the region nor wipe out Israel. Now I'm asserting there that they will not be doing something that they can never do. I've given you reasons why they won't do either (though I don't know why I have to, as the reasons are also self-evident). Moreover, people who persistently brand Hamas as terrorists (ignoring Israel's undeniable state terrorism, of course), and say they can't be talked to, are scaremongering demonisers. One fine day we will talk to Hamas. Put something meaningful on the table. No more sham negotiations predicated on divide and rule. Just watch those rockets stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:37 PM

Don T. - You asked "what set the Jews off to wandering again. Does anybody really know?"

I'm surprised you would have to ask that.

Why surprised LH? Is it because I don't know every aspect of every historical era, or is it because, unlike many here I'm capable of admitting that I don't know everything?

LOL :-)
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:44 PM

"One fine day we will talk to Hamas."

Who, out of interest, do you mean by "we" here?

You do somewhat mistake me, Steve. I do not suggest that Hamas could at present make good any such threat, or would even necessarily want to. But I do remind you that they have asserted a wish to extirpate and exterminate the Jews ~~ whether just those of Israel or ubiquitously has not made clear; and I have merely suggested an analogy with a previous expresser of a similar aspiration who was not taken seriously at first ~~ or indeed until it was too late. So I make the point that it does not do to be complacent in the face of such declarations of intent.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:49 PM

Now you're repeating yourself. And it's fine to say "Hitler", by the way. Even Godwin laughed at his own non-law. Like I'm thinking of laughing at your - well, risible - notion that Hamas could ever emulate Adolf.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:55 PM

Oh Mt LH you are starting to make some sense... Again.
That rationale explains why the Palestinians and the Orthodox Jews seem to be in a baby race, with the Israeli government subsidizing the former.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 01:59 PM

No artillery, no air force, no navy, no logistical structure worth mentioning, no money, no modern industry, no organised military industrial complex.

What are they going to do? Throw chunks of broken concrete (they've plenty of that, courtesy of th IDF) and brain the Israelis one by one?

GET REAL! It takes generations to get to the level Israel already has.

Hamas will be just a nasty memory before that can happen. Maybe Gaza will be just a memory too, the way Israel is heading.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:04 PM

Perhaps the underlying problem for Israel is that Islam is more welcoming to converts.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:09 PM

...and less murdering of apostates.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:13 PM

Christians in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip are taking a public stand against forced conversion to Islam.

In an unusual public demonstration, men and women gathered in front of the Church of Saint Porphyrius Monday to protest the abduction and forced conversion of members of their congregation.

YNet reported that the newly converted Muslims, al-Amash, a 25-year-old man, and Hiba Abu Dawoud, 31, a mother with three children, are staying with a Muslim official for "protection" from their Christian families, according to Gaza police.

Forced conversion to Islam is not a new phenomenon in Gaza, but public protests by Christians are, Labib Nabanat, coordinator of the Israeli and Palestinian Bible Societies, told CBN News.

"This is not the first time this has happened. In the past, there were cases involving women, whole families, and younger men," Nabanat said. "But there has never before been such a public protest by Christians, which means they've reach the point of terrible desperation."

Generally, the pattern is the same.

"There would be a sudden disappearance of the individual(s) for an extended period of time, with no news or no information about them," Nabanat said. "Then comes a sudden announcement that they've converted to Islam. Afterward, they may reappear with armed people around them as protection."

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:24 PM

CBN news?

You will quote anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:24 PM

Steve ~~ "One fine day we will talk to Hamas."

Who, out of interest, do you mean by "we" here?

You didn't answer this bit, Steve.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:28 PM

Don't worry about that charter, Steve. Let Keith have his cheap fodder. If Hamas wanted to slaughter all Jews and had the capacity to do it, they would not be saying it, they would be doing it. You don't have to be a psychologist to understand that Hamas's bluster is born of frustration. You just have to be a little bit brighter than Keith.

MtheM, if you don't like being accused of playing the Holocaust card, don't play it. As for your teaching career, you wouldn't be the first teacher who learnt the rules of English but not the usage. Consider this wretched attempt at a sentence: "...I shouldn't be too patronising as to figures of speech recognition towards one who was in senior posts teaching English for 30 years, if I were you." (Yes, a teacher put that one together!)

But back to serious matters. You are sadly mistaken, MtheM, to think Hitler was the monster in 1930s Europe. Anti-semitism was the monster. Polish villagers who helped Jews off the cattle trucks and ushered them towards a nice cup of tea and something to eat were not obeying orders. No-one made the good people of Vienna torment Jews as they scrubbed the pavements with toothbrushes; France did a comprehensive job of cramming its Jews on to eastbound trains while under an occupation sometimes secured by as few as 3,000 German troops. Hitler (elected to the Reichstag Keith, but appointed chancellor, with minimal democratic legitimacy) just pushed at an open door.

Keith, I appreciate you marshalling this thread for relevance, but could you explain the relevance of your reference to Zyklon B?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:31 PM

Just goes to show, Keith, there are some fanatics in all communities, aren't there? And they are the ones who cause all the trouble for the rest. I would suggest that the Israelis have problems with that too, not just Hamas...the rightwing parties in Israel are ethnic, religious, and political fanatics too...but what about the ordinary and perfectly decent people on both sides who get caught in the crossfire? And what about having land theft enshrined as a national policy? Who else in the world gets away with that, except Israel? Who else gets to build a large nuclear arsenal unofficially and with no objections from the West except Israel? Who else gets support from the USA to invade anyone they want to except Israel? And why? "Why" is really the most interesting part of the question. I think we'd all like to know exactly why...and how...that is accomplished.

Don T - Oh, well said, sir! (your last response to me) LOL! indeed. Touche! As you say, none of us here knows everything. I did think it was fairly common knowledge that the Romans scattered the Jewish nation to the 4 winds not too long after the beginning of what's now called the Common Era, but I might be wrong about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:36 PM

" Palestinians should be compensated in some way for having been displaced and robbed of much of their land and heritage since 1948."


AND teh GREATER number of Jews driven out of Arab lands 1948 - 1967, including the West Bank?


Do they get compensation?

820,000 Jews Vs 640,000 Arab Palestinians...   Waiting on the payment FROM THE ARABS.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:43 PM

Who else gets support from the USA to invade anyone they want to except Israel? And why? "Why" is really the most interesting part of the question. I think we'd all like to know exactly why...and how...that is accomplished.

That last one isn't so difficult. The right-wing media give the American people Israel's story. No-one gives them the Palestinians' story. You have to want that and look it up for yourself. And no politician who values his career can brief against Israel. You do that, you're toast. You have AIPAC and the lesser members of the undemocratic Israel lobby to thank for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 02:56 PM

If they are still suffering poverty and deprivation as a result of it, BB, sure...

But my impression is that they ended up on the prosperous winning side of a series of military conflicts in that area, and are reaping the benefits of being on the winning side, the side that is heavily armed, the side that dominates the region. Why would that qualify them for "compensation" at this point?

Your basic point is valid though, in this sense...no one should be driven from his home by a political conflict and forced to flee elsewhere. We all know that. All people should be willing to live in harmony as one community, sharing cultures and traditions, and sharing political power in an equal and fair manner.

So...how do we accomplish that? It would require a genuine will to forgive the events in the past, stop attacking one another, and mend relations.

What's a good way to start?

I suggested that Israel return to its 1948 boundaries and stop extending settlements into occupied land outside those boundaries. I suggest that Israel identify itself not as a "Jewish" or a "Zionist" state, but as a democracy, period, where all religious and ethnic groups have equality from the top down. I suggest that Palestinians get a state of their own and full status in the U.N., and that they also welcome all religious and ethnic groups in equality. I suggest that everyone else in the region do that too. I suggest that all of Israel's present foes in the region recognize Israel's right to exist.

The reason I'm more concerned about Israel taking the first initiative in making such overtures is quite simple: they are presently the dominant party, militarily speaking, specially with USA backing...therefore it is they who must start the process to clear the logjam of the past, and they could start by ceasing encroachment on the lands outside their original 1948 borders.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 03:12 PM

Why the 1948 borders? The Arabs have never agreed to them.


The last set of borders that the Arabs did agree to were the 1923 ones, when 77% of the Mandate Palestine was prohibited to Jews, and given to the Arabs. THEY have their homeland.

Will you accept the borders of the remaining 23% of the Mandate Palestine territory as fair borders for the Jewish Homeland as specified by the treaties ending WW I?

As I have pointed out, it is the Arab nations ( and the Palestinians) who have been engaged in ethnic cleansing.

The Jewish refugees from Arab nations were settled in Israel- the Arab refugees from Israel were kept in camps and NOT settled in the West Bank by the Arabs. NOT ISRAEL:'S FAULT.

Yet there is a demand for ONLY Arab refugees to be compensated for their losses. Israel is to be punished for being a more responsible nation than the surrounding Arab ones?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:07 PM

I realize the Arabs have never agreed to the 1948 borders, and I think they absolutely should agree to them.

Why the 1948 borders? Because those were the initial established borders OF the modern state of Israel, that's why. And almost everyone in the world does recognize those borders, including the U.N. and all the great powers. It seems like the most logical place to start, wouldn't you say?

I get the impression that you don't really want a solution...I think you just want to go on and on about how awful the Arabs (and various other people) are to the Jews. You figure that continued conflict with "anti-semites" is inevitable, and you want your "team" (Israel) to deliver the most telling blows and win the battles. You foresee nothing but more of the same. I think you're after some sort of endless emotional catharsis to make up for the accumulated pain and sorrow of the Jewish diaspora's tragic past rather than finding any kind of workable solution to the present political situation. As for Netanyahu, I think he's after considerably more than that. He's after total victory and regional domination. I very much doubt he's going to get it. If Hamas is after total victory...well...they're not going to get it either. You know, if you've got 2 sets of people (militant Jews and militant Muslims) who both imagine they are the world's #1 martyrs, and they're fighting against each other to prove it...you've got a pretty hopeless situation on your hands.

It won't change until at least one of those communities decides to stop thinking from the perspective of righteous martyrdom based on a traumatic past. I'm suggesting that the far better armed and far more dominant one of those communities take the lead in doing so...because they hold the power. He who holds the power is the one equipped to peacefully end the conflict...providing he wants it to end.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:11 PM

Bruce your homeland is the USA. A Jewish theocracy, even a "democratic" one perpetuated by force is an affront to human rights. It will not stand. That is inevitable. It will go the way of Apartheid South Africa. That is the direction of the democratic and demographic trends. The sooner Israel realizes that and stops electing expansionist war mongers, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 04:50 PM

I see and read the comments, and note that my posting has not been addressed.

IMO, many here will only be satisfied with a situation where the Palestinian can act out their goals to destroy Israel- I have seen nothing that indicates any less.

Israel has had the capability to eliminate the Palestinians, yet has not- Are you willing to risk a major nuclear war to find out if the Palestinians have been telling the truth about their goals? I doubt very much if the Palestinians would survive what they have stated they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:06 PM

Peter K ~~ An analysis, please, as to what you find so unacceptable in that sentence of mine which you quote back to me. Perfectly formed, so far as I can see, with a main clause, followed by a noun clause in the accusative following a preposition, modified in its turn by an adverbial clause of condition. Fault it, if you can; if not, go and stand in the corner with your hands on your head for the next 30 minutes.

The term 'the Holocaust card' is intrinsically unacceptable as a metaphor: I cannot accept it, so I cannot play it, metaphorically or in any other way. It is not the accusation I find unacceptable, but the phraseology in which it is couched. If you cannot recognise the distinction, then you should have gone to Specsavers. In any event, for all of Steve's saying, the comparison involved still seems to me valid.

I take your point about Hitler: but surely he was the one who recognised that metaphorical 'door' of antisemitism and, to maintain the image, pushed it open.

Steve ~~ still waiting for an answer as to who that 'we' may be, whom you anticipate sitting down to negotiate with Hamas.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:38 PM

Israel, as it is, cannot last. It will be destroyed, not by us or Hamas but by internal politics and demographics and outside economic pressure.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 05:58 PM

"We" is whoever in the West you want it to be. Could be a middle man I suppose, at least to start with, though I'd prefer to keep Tony Blair out of it. It won't be easy. There is hubris on both sides, there is entrenchment on both sides, there is thoroughly misguided ideology on both sides and there is a lack of need on Israel's side to give anything. My bet is that the ground will shift against Israel in the middle east. The little nation is already isolated and it looks like Jordan, along with Turkey and Egypt, will be soon lost as a reluctant ally. It could be that the US Israel lobby, the major obstacle to peace, will fade. There have, after all, been murmurings this past week about Israel's badly mistimed settlement announcement, and the witholding of tax receipts hasn't gone down well. The west is generally spineless about Israel, and I'm not holding my breath, but there have been mutterings. We will talk to Hamas, and Hamas will realise that they have to talk with us. Hamas runs schools, hospitals and social services in Gaza. They have to get their hands dirty with the nitty-gritty of the life made difficult for their people by Israel. They do not sit around all day chanting from the Qur'an or spouting their charter, whatever fantasists like Keith like to think. Their people are suffering and their people have got limits just like everyone else. They will have to talk and we will have to talk. One day it will happen. You simply can't carry on like this until everybody's dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 06:55 PM

Exactly, MtheM, you are blind to the difference between good writing and bad. I can't pretend to understand what is meant by "...the phraseology in which it (the accusation) is couched" nor in what sense the term "Holocaust card" is "intrinsically unacceptable." But behind the waffle I think you now see where you overstepped the mark.

Jack the Sailor's dismal prognosis is about right I fear.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 07:58 PM

I also think, like Jack, that Israel is sewing the seeds of its own eventual destruction, due to its own extreme aggression and intransigence, but I highly doubt that the Palestinians will cause that destruction. They're not capable of doing so, no more than the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto were capable of destroying the Wehrmacht and the 3rd Reich. They can resist Israel, yes, but they certainly cannot destroy it. It is the Zionist policy itself that will cause the downfall of Israel.

And if it ever comes by nuclear attack, the nukes, in my opinion, will be Russian in origin.

In which case...we can pretty well all kiss our hopes for the future goodbye. I hope I don't live to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:37 PM

Well I could agree with much of that. Rotten regimes tend to founder on their own corruption in the end. Unless they see the light and change radically, of course. This applies as much to the bloated US as much as it applies to Israel (yes, and plenty others, just in case I'm accused of hopeful bias). In the end the people of Gaza and the people of Israel will lose patience with their hubristic regimes. Politicians are pretty good at not letting their people see reality but it will always show through in the end. There's only so long that you will put up with having your homes razed, your family slaughtered or your nights spent cowering in a bunker. Unfortunately, as with Gaddafi and Mubarak, and Assad ongoing, it comes with a horrid jolt sometimes. It's much better to talk. To put the demonisation on the back burner, scrap the testosterone and think about the people whose suffering you are perpetuating. If you don't, they will get you first. They might put a bullet up your arse (Gaddafi), tear you to pieces (Ceaușescu) or hang you upside down from a lamp-post (Mussolini). That's history, innit. It'll get you in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 08:38 PM

Too much much, much as I'd like to deny it.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:08 PM

Fionn, your qualifications for distinguishing good writing from bad are...?

Or for reading my mind ("thinking what I now see"), for that matter?

Or for identifying a 'mark'[?] which might or might not have been 'overstepped]?

And you have the all-fire impertinence to talk about 'waffle'.

Words fail me ~~ and they don't do that very often!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Dec 12 - 11:52 PM

... or could it be that my prose style doesn't happen to appeal to or meet the self-indulgent criteria of your own oh-so-sensitive-and-fastidious tastes? In which case, tough-tittie, Matey. I haven't followed a still intermittently ongoing journalisitc career since the 1960s for nothing {in fact it has been quite lucrative over the years}. There has been many an editor who was quite content with my writing.

Who the hell is "PeterK-Fionn" anyway? Anyone in real that anyone has ever heard of?

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 03:00 AM

"Who the hell is "PeterK-Fionn" anyway? Anyone in real that anyone has ever heard of?"
Tsk-tsk - don't forget the mask Mike.
Had occasion to thumb through some old Folk Reviews recently and was reminded what an entertaining writer MtheGM once was before he got pompous and took on the job of egging-on armchair zealots.
I'd stick to the latter - you seem more comfortable with that nowadays.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 03:13 AM

In the end the people of Gaza and the people of Israel will lose patience with their hubristic regimes

Whenever that happens in Israel, there is a peaceful change of government following a regularly held election.

In Gaza it would require the kind of process now being employed by the disaffected people of Syria, and previously by Libyans.
Far more Gazans would have to die even than in the last change of government.

Subject: RE: BS: Palestine welcomed into the UN fold
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Dec 12 - 03:31 AM

Ah, Jim; we do indeed grow pompous with age. You must continue to act as a check on my excesses, tho I fear I can't afford to pay you in more than thanks. Thank you for the kind recollecions, anyhow.

Best

~M~