BS: Shooting tragedies and guns

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:10 PM

And for those who wish to legalize drugs...

Mortality: Drug overdose/drug poisoning deaths
Deaths per 100,000 population: 21.7 (2017)
Drug overdose deaths involving any opioid per 100,000 population: 14.9 (2017)
Drug overdose deaths involving heroin per 100,000 population: 4.9 (2017)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:19 PM

Whenever someone indulges in whataboutism if always leaves me with the impression that they are lost for an answer
We'll be talking about driving cars next
The statistics speak for themselves - America has a rapidly escalating gun problem which it needs to sort out - not make excuses for

SOME COMPARATIVE STATISTICS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:19 PM

so... guns, drugs, cars, bungee, parkour and freerunning, etc...

How many total USA deaths are considered avoidable mortality due to some variety of gross human stupidity...???

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:26 PM

It is possible the USSR could win more Darwin Awards for stupid deaths per annum than the USA..
But I suspect it is a very close run competition...???

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:31 PM

OK, let’s look at the numbers again...

”Mortality
All homicides
Number of deaths: 19,510
Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.0
Firearm homicides
Number of deaths: 14,542
Deaths per 100,000 population: 4.5

Now compare....

UK - total shooting deaths: 31 (deaths per 100,000 population: 0.048)
Australia - total shooting deaths: 238 (deaths per 100,000 population: 0.95)

What is the big difference between U.K./Australia vs. US? As you apparently don’t have the intellect to understand, or are so indoctrinated by NRA and bullet-head horse-shit, let me tell you -

The U.K. and Australia have strong, rigidly enforced gun-laws, and severe penalties for carrying a firearm when in the commission of another crime. To be granted a licence to possess a firearm in the U.K., a person has to go through rigorous police-checks which are periodically re-checked, and has to prove need for that firearm. A very limited number of people can demonstrate that need because there are severe restrictions on what constitutes ‘need’. ‘Self-defence’ is not a legitimate ‘need’.

QED.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:40 PM

We could guess, cynical as it may be, that USA Govt relies on the self culling and murderous stupity of it's citizens,
to contain population growth...???

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 01:42 PM

stupity.. yes I know.. Chrome spell check has stopped working again...

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 02:09 PM

I repeat.....

But sooner or later, the problem the US has created for itself will have to be faced and dealt with. And I repeat, the answer to the problem of too many guns and too many unsuitable owners is not, and cannot be, ‘More Guns’, no matter what the NRA and small-dick gun-nuts say.

That’s all. I’m gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 03:14 PM

Why would we ever have to face our gun issue? We haven't yet, no matter who is massacred by whom. Sandy Hook didn't change anything.

And the Gilroy and Las Vegas and so on shooters had all gotten their guns legally.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jul 19 - 07:49 PM

Or maybe Duke Wayne. Well said, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 02:06 AM

”Or maybe Duke Wayne. Well said, Bill.”

Sorry, you’ve lost me there Steve!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mossback
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 07:14 AM

Steve's lost you, BWM, because the posts of mine he's referring to have mysteriously disappeared - as this one likely will as well.

Of, course, Bruce's nonsensical posts remain - Joe must be on watch.

Cheers,

Bill

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 09:21 AM

Aaahh! Thanks Bill, I wondered if it was something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: John P
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 11:27 AM

Backwoodsman, most of the people in the United States are victims of this gun insanity. Please believe that we would fix it if we could. Are you mistaking our government for one which pays attention to the safety of it's citizens?

What, exactly, are you proposing we do about it? If you can't come up with a concrete answer that is within the realms of possibility, please stop writing as if everyone in the US is responsible and can take effective action. Our country has been taken over by a bigoted, violent minority who have manipulated and perverted the forms of our government in order to ensure their rise to power, and to keep themselves there. And they have all the guns, including the army. Perhaps you could be more selective in your rants against people in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 12:14 PM

John P - well you’ve done a great job of grabbing the stick by the wrong end. Did you actually read what I said? From your thin-skinned, defensive piece above, it doesn’t appear you did.

I’m on your side. My rant was against people like Bearded Bruce, and the huge number of other ‘from my dead hands’ gun-lunatics, headed up by the Agenda-Driven NRA, who insist that gun-controls will mean more shootings, and whose answer to the gun-violence in the US is ‘More Guns’ - the very same bigoted, violent sizeable minority you bemoan in your own rant.

Nowhere have I said that ‘everyone in the US is responsible’ - if you believe that’s what I said, please point me to where I said it.

And my point is that the UK and Australia have come up with a ‘concrete answer that is within the realms of possibility’, put it into effect, and the result is encapsulated in the numbers I quoted. We had 31 shooting-deaths (including suicides and accidents) in 2017, you had 39,000, IIRC. Those numbers speak volumes, yet Bruce still insists that the precise opposite would be the result if the kind of controls we have here were introduced in the US.

No-one is saying it’s easy but, unless you are happy to accept almost 40,000 shooting-deaths a year, 12,000 of which are murders, something must be done. Hand-wringing and saying “It’s difficult” is about as much use as those ‘thoughts and prayers’ everybody offers when another group of innocent kids is murdered in their classrooms.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 12:54 PM

As long as we have members of the Left stating they want to kill off those of us that disagree with them, there will be a large portion of the population who feel the need for some form of self-defense.


"From: Mossback - PM
Date: 19 Jun 19 - 09:14 PM

Getting rid of Trumpshit won't accomplish a thing unless we can get rid of the 62,984,828 fuckwits who originally voted for him and more importantly the utter fuckwits that account for his current 40% - 45% approval rating.

Subject: RE: BS: now California has got nutria
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 06:51 PM

Uh Hunh. Killer Rodents From Hades.

Be better if Califoria expended its resources documenting and eradicating Republicans - that would benefit mankind a great deal more.

All in all its just another rat in the wall...... HEY HUMANS!! LEAVE THEM RATS ALONE!! "

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 01:11 PM

Beardy - yeah... I'm a lefty.. anyone know where I can get a cheap deal on a stockpile of guns and ammo...

Obviously I need to defend myself against paranoid righwing nutjobs
who are proactively arming themselves to the teeth,
so they can defend themselves against me...

I might need to get my counter-strike in first before they do...?????

The madness or arms races and escalation in a nutshell...



It's so much safer to live in the UK...

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 01:13 PM

..of..

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 02:47 PM

Historically and politically violence in America has come from the right - from the Klan hanging blacks to 114 yeas of bombing peasants with burning petrol
Now that Trump has won the backing of The Klan (historically the most violent paramilitary organization in America)that can only become an ongoing issue
A WORLDWIDE PHENOMENON
US RIGHT WING VIOLENCE
TRUMP INCITED VIOLENCE
AMERICA'S PROUD HISTORY OF VIOLENT ANTISEMITISM

Left wing my arse
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 06:03 PM

"As long as we have members of the Left stating they want to kill off those of us that disagree with them, there will be a large portion of the population who feel the need for some form of self-defense."

Can anyone tell me why this kind of stupidity is allowed to remain on this forum?

Joe? He's your mate after all...?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mossback
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 06:32 PM

Can anyone tell me why this kind of stupidity is allowed to remain on this forum?

Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer, Steve.

Bruceis Uber Alles. HEIL TRUMP!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 07:52 PM

Glad you are all ok with Mossback stating that all those who voted for Trump should be exterminated. You deserve each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 08:58 PM

Bearded - stop being such a tit... [British ornithology joke..]

So if a person says I could/want to/will/ kill you
in exasperation or jest,
you are going to automatically take it so literally
you go out and buy an extra truck load of more guns and ammo,
then lie in wait for them...!!!???

Bearded tit...

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mossback
Date: 01 Aug 19 - 09:10 PM

If Brucie wants to whine about me, why's he citing someone else's comments?

Why he's whining at all is another question --

OH WAIT!!I KNOW!

Its all about that poor, downtrodden, persecuted class of Trumpist racists, white supremacists, anti-government, gun-toting clowns & other assorted assholes.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Aug 19 - 11:06 AM

John Wayne and the Western "ideals" do have a lot to answer for. People thought Bush II was a cowboy [admired] but he was really a redneck.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 05:52 AM

Now add El Paso to the toll (20 killed, 26 injured) - Dayton didn't make the news here. Well I am not going to bother to repeat myself - Just reread my post of 29th July. I know that was a very long time ago as far as gun violence is concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 08:07 AM

The killing in El Paso has been linked to an on-line racist manifesto
Many of the injuries inflicted on the wounded are described as 'life-thretening'
Another incident in Dayton, Ohio has claimed another nine lives
When will the BBs of this world ever learn !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 08:33 AM

When USA has a president that has the guts to call out the gun lobby and take personal responsibility for normalising race hate.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:04 AM

Time will take care of the BBs of the world. It feels like humanity is doing a backstep in this particular epoch while extreme right wingers with notions of American primacy on the world stage and white supremacy at home,a reversion to the values of the 1950's, are making one last desperate stand to protect their selfish, anti-human world view. As they die off we may start to see a saner, more humane world if we survive this onslaught. I may never see it but it's something to hope for and to fight for in whatever way you can.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mossback
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 09:09 AM

How many more, Bruce? How many more?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 12:31 PM

gillymor - don't hold your breath waiting for those bastards to die off. The El Paso shooter is 21, the Dayton shooter 24, the Gilroy shooter was 19.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: gillymor
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 12:50 PM

michael, of course I wasn't accusing the old bastards of being the triggermen, in their maniacal defense of the anachronistic 2nd amendment they are the enablers.

gillymor (old bastard, gun owner and former gun user)

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 01:00 PM

Same all over the world throughout history...

The old fanatics perpetuate bitter sectarian division and conflict
by indoctrinating the young next generation with their vengeful hate...

It will never stop...

.. there's too much wealth to be made from it...

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 03:46 PM

And 2 more. Since last night.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 07:23 PM

Sadly, all the news media about one shooting seems to push the idea in others who are racist, unhappy or just plain crazy. I'll bet there are guys right now who just wonder what it would 'feel' like to shoot up a crowd...

There's no shortage of idiots whose minds are messed up... and with millions of guns easily available, what could we expect to happen? These days just shooting ONE barely makes the local news.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 07:48 PM

You live in a rotten country that can ignorantly elect a dangerous idiot for president, that is so undemocratic that a gun lobby, a pro-Israel lobby and a bunch of multinationals, none of whom ever managed to attract a single vote from your electorate, rule the roost and ensure that any politician who opposes them is toast. And your political discourse is infantile. Bastion of democracy? Land of the free? In your dreams, yanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 19 - 10:18 PM

Ummm... right. No one would allow anyone as flawed as Trump to gain power..... unless they had a Boris Johnson to offer. ;>)

The US still has many good things and ideals, despite the odd crap of letting a stupid anti-immigrant scare and probably Russian meddling allow the worse president we ever had follow one of the best.

It's not a good idea to make such broad, sweeping condemnations of a country which has some really sane, decent people working very hard to set things right again. My senators and my local congressman are top notch. If Mitch McConnell were kicked out, you'd see a lot more progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 12:54 PM

It's going to get worse before it gets better.

I know, that's not what anybody wants to hear.
But it is more than "one generation will die off in time."
Things like this tear nations apart,
like a family feud on a giant scale.

This continent may well end up
having more than one nation where there used
to be one nation with continental forty-eight states.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 12:56 PM

Johnson was elected Prime Minister by approx 0.14 - less than on fifth of 1 percent of the UK population whereas Trump was elected by approx 20% of the American population   Just sidetracking on the sidetrack of the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:17 PM

Each system has potential weak points. The one thing I envy about the UK system is having to possibility for a "vote of confidence" in the middle of a term.
   The greatest flaw in the US system in the electoral college. The Republicans are totally aware that changing demographics mean they MUST retain the electoral college in order to keep electing Reagans and Bushes and Trumps.... it is possible that they will also need ongoing tampering with elections.

   Over 40 million young people have turned 18 since 2016, and we shall see how many are taken in by the current batch of lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:30 PM

Bit of a concern that only about 40% voted in the presidential elections. How does the other 60% break down between too young, non US nationals, voter suppression and voter apathy?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Mossback
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 01:57 PM

Things like this tear nations apart,

Yup, things like:

-racism
-xenophobia
-ignorance
-willful denial of reality
-fascism
-white supremacy
-social Darwinism
-Reaganomics

All of which are actively promoted by the the Republishit Party in the U.S.

Wake up, assholes - you want to know what's coming before it's Hitler/Mussolini redux.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 02:51 PM

It's an ongoing concern that so few voted, but with so little attention to the candidates platforms and ignorance about the issues, having a 90% voting populace might not be an improvement. Polls are becoming more suspect as phone #s go to mobile phones and compete with texts, videos and games. I wonder how they find a good sample of actual voters to poll.
The problems of maintaining a fair, honest government are hugely more complex since people's attention span has been divided between so many distractions and problematic media sources. (there are at any one time in the evening, 5-6 different right-wing cable TV channels available in my area..(the greater Wash.DC area) Fox news is famous, but one is consistently to the right of Fox! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_America_News_Network (and it is NOT a 'pay' channel in my list) They are a study in spin, distortion, lies, rhetorical blather and twisted logic. I look at it now & then to see where Trump is getting some of his latest ideas... He is said to be unhappy with Fox because they have a couple of hosts who actually try to see the truth and don't toe the party line.

You see? It really takes time and more effort than many are willing to take to sort the truths from the half-truths from the blatant lies!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 03:55 PM

Part of the problem, Bill, is that what we ID as blatant lies are taken as obvious truths by millions.

Last week, for example, the president told a cheering crowd very forcefully that Americans do not pay for his tariffs on Chinese imports:

" I just announced another 10% tariff on $300 billion worth of Chinese products that come into our country. And that’s on top of the 25% that we take off $250 billion coming in from China, and don’t let them tell you, the fact is China devalues their currency. They pour money into their system, they pour it in, and because they do that, you’re not paying for those tariffs. China’s paying for those tariffs."

Basically doubletalk. The purchaser, not the seller, pays tariffs. Freshman econ.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 04:55 PM

Yes... it does work like that... but part of my point was that the blatant lies ARE partially a result of so many being too lazy or careless to bother looking for reason and truth and just reading or watching the media outlets that they already agree with....
   And lies can be made to sound like such simple answers! Untangling and exposing lies takes much longer than telling the lies. Trump spews out so many so fast that there's no breathing space between them.
Doesn't "they're coming to take your guns!" and "we're being invaded by dangerous migrants!" make it a lot easier to make decisions if you're already confused?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 05:20 PM

From the FB Page of Barack Obama...

”Michelle and I grieve with all the families in El Paso and Dayton who endured these latest mass shootings. Even if details are still emerging, there are a few things we already know to be true.

First, no other nation on Earth comes close to experiencing the frequency of mass shootings that we see in the United States. No other developed nation tolerates the levels of gun violence that we do. Every time this happens, we’re told that tougher gun laws won’t stop all murders; that they won’t stop every deranged individual from getting a weapon and shooting innocent people in public places. But the evidence shows that they can stop some killings. They can save some families from heartbreak. We are not helpless here. And until all of us stand up and insist on holding public officials accountable for changing our gun laws, these tragedies will keep happening.

Second, while the motivations behind these shootings may not yet be fully known, there are indications that the El Paso shooting follows a dangerous trend: troubled individuals who embrace racist ideologies and see themselves obligated to act violently to preserve white supremacy. Like the followers of ISIS and other foreign terrorist organizations, these individuals may act alone, but they’ve been radicalized by white nationalist websites that proliferate on the internet. That means that both law enforcement agencies and internet platforms need to come up with better strategies to reduce the influence of these hate groups.

But just as important, all of us have to send a clarion call and behave with the values of tolerance and diversity that should be the hallmark of our democracy. We should soundly reject language coming out of the mouths of any of our leaders that feeds a climate of fear and hatred or normalizes racist sentiments; leaders who demonize those who don’t look like us, or suggest that other people, including immigrants, threaten our way of life, or refer to other people as sub-human, or imply that America belongs to just one certain type of people. Such language isn’t new – it’s been at the root of most human tragedy throughout history, here in America and around the world. It is at the root of slavery and Jim Crow, the Holocaust, the genocide in Rwanda and ethnic cleansing in the Balkans. It has no place in our politics and our public life. And it’s time for the overwhelming majority of Americans of goodwill, of every race and faith and political party, to say as much – clearly and unequivocally.”

How did the US go from this President, to a batshit-crazy, pussy-grabbing, morally-bankrupt crook?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 06:06 PM

So lets wait for the tirade of nasty drivel from trump in response to such a sensitive, well thought out and empathetic statement. I am sure it won't be able to help itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 06:19 PM

Just remember that Clinton got three million more votes.

I don't blame the electoral vote. I blame the electors.

Part of the point of the "college" is that when the electors meet in their state capitols to certify the election results, part of their responsibility from the beginning has been to ensure that an unfit candidate, con man, or dangerous demagogue is not allowed to take office, regardless of the "electoral vote".

In other words, except where they're constrained by state law, individual electors theoretically can vote for anybody they want, or for nobody. In 2016, several Democrats deserted Clinton and voted for Sanders, Colin Powell, or Faith Spotted Eagle.

All Republican electors went for Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 06:48 PM

Backwoodsman said:
"How did the US go from this President, to a batshit-crazy, pussy-grabbing, morally-bankrupt crook? "

   The part that startled me was that he was laughed at and ridiculed by many stalwart Republicans when he announced..... and then he proceeded to stand onstage with a dozen others and say outrageous stuff and gradually pull ahead! The crazier he became, the more it seemed to fit the mood of the right-wing nuts, and lure just enough of the vaguely moderates with his scare tactics and outright lies! (remember, we KNOW politicians spin their message, but we have little experience of a presidential candidate directly lying about his plans, promises and credentials.)
There were also many men, I presume, who envied his behavior toward women. Because we can't read minds or interview every voter, it's hard to show 'exactly' what most found appealing about his BS.... and, as noted, he DID lose the popular vote by 3,000,000. There is well founded suspicion that Russian meddling made just enough difference to get him 30,000 votes, legally or illegally, in 3-4 states.
   When you couple that with just enough people who refused to vote for a woman... and Hillary in particular... and the stupid outmoded electoral college, it just happened.

All the "what's the matter with America?" rants are just attempts to simplify disgust with the result by painting 65,000,000 good people with the same broad brush as a similar number of bad, confused and ignorant ones. There is NO simple answer.... there is history, demographics, media, and a complex country with **states rights** attitude to explain it... and that takes more time than my fingers will type or you will read....

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting tragedies and guns
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 19 - 07:35 PM

A lot's been said here since I typed what you railed at, Bill. You are a very measured and reasonable poster. Your reaction to my post, excoriating us for having Johnson as PM, is understandable, but, as has been said, the public here didn't pick him. And complaining that we have him is no excuse for what you have. Your politics is infantile and panders to populism and all your politicians are scared shitless of criticising Israel/guns/oil companies. You have a president who gains strength from what should be fatal weaknesses. And he's a threat to the planet in a way that Boris never will be. Reflect on that if you will. I know it's not your personal fault.