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BS: The Guillotine
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Subject: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:00 AM I've been researching various means of capital punishment and I had no idea the French used it all the way up until 1977. Or that the Nazis used it on 16,000 people. It is probably the cheapest, most effective and most humane method. Other than that moment of terror just before they are laid out. And with heavy sedation, that would not be an issue. I'm opposed to the death penalty. The government doesn't deserve that much power. Guillotine |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:15 AM Only one person was guillotined here in North America. A botched job in Canada. But I bet it was used alot in places like Haiti. =(:-( D) Guillotine |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Jack the Sailor Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:17 AM Hanging when done properly is a humane as any. Electric chair, injection are just modern pretenses. Electricity stops the heart, so does potassium, then your brain is staved of oxygen and dies. Guillotine and hanging sever the spinal chord, leaving the brain to die. If you want to kill in the most humane way, look at the slaughter house. A steel bolt into the cerebral cortex ends the brain activity ASAP. Wouldn't look so good on CNN though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:26 AM That would be cheap, too. Not very dramatic,though. =(:-( l) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Rapparee Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:26 AM A bullet in the back of the head And you don't even know you're dead. Might fast, efficient and cheap And the recipient doesn't make a peep. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:27 AM The U.K. didn't abolish beheading as a punishment until 1972. I wonder how they were carried out there in the 20th century. Can any U.K. Mudcatter enlighten us? How did your government behead people in more recent times? =(:-( D) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Ebbie Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:40 AM The thought has often occurred to me: When the head is severed but before the brain has died, does the person remain conscious for a moment or two? I remember once reading that just before the head rolled "she fixed her eyes accusingly" on her arch enemy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cookie Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:01 AM Krank-le, it may not have been 'abolished' until 1972 (not sure you're right about that, but I'll take your word for it), but it was never used in the UK in the 20th century. When we were still so uncivilised as to have the death penalty (until the mid-60s), we hanged our criminals. We are far better as a nation now, and state-sponsored murder is no longer part of our penal system. BTW Krank-le, you need help. Seek therapy right away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:07 AM Thank you for your concern. I'm a do-it-yourselfer. I'll help myself. Krinkle's Fun Time =(:-( D) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Raedwulf Date: 16 Dec 12 - 04:20 AM Back, IF we are a far better nation now, it has nothing to do with the abolition of capital punishment. You might feel better about it, but that's your own personal view. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 16 Dec 12 - 04:24 AM I wonder when and how the last prisoner was beheaded there. And who it was. And what was their offense? =(:-( o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Dec 12 - 04:57 AM It was, I believe, one Lord Lovat in 1747. It should be noted that beheading with the axe on the block at Tower Hill was the penalty only for High Treason; and then only as a privilege restricted to noble people ~~ others had to undergo the unspeakable 'hanged, drawn & quartered' {only look it up if you have a strong stomach!}. When Sir Thomas More fell out of favour with Henry VIII and was convicted of High Treason, it was only a special concession on the part of the King himself which allowed him to escape this penalty & be beheaded as if he were a nobleman, which he was not. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 16 Dec 12 - 05:10 AM I wonder why they stopped using the gibbet. =(:-( )) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Dave Hanson Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:05 AM We've still have one in my home town, Halifax, West Yorkshire. Halifax and Hull were the last 2 places in England with a gibbet, hence the old rhyme, From Hull, Hell and Halifax, Good lord deliver us. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:22 AM 'Gibbet' is an ambiguous term. It can just be an alternative to 'gallows', suggesting hanging. But the Halifax 'gibbet' was a beheading machine, something like the later French Guillotine, which was named after the French deputy who suggested its use for mass executions after the Revolution IIRC. Which did Henry K mean by his question? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Charmion Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:32 AM A gibbet is any structure devised for the purpose of displaying the body of an executed person. It could be a cage or a platform, a pole or a cross, but the form most recognizable to modern people is a simple gallows. In some jurisdictions, and for some offences, the body was left on the gibbet until it literally fell apart, at which point the bones were scattered. The practice of gibbetting died out because it was recognized in the early 19th century as both barbarous and disgusting, and not sufficiently effective in deterring crime to make it worth imposing on the innocent majority. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Musket Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:47 AM Actually, we are a better country for getting rid of capital punishment. You can have a view that that is not the case, but it doesn't alter the facts. Just shows that personality disorder is still an issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: gnomad Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:52 AM While use of the gibbet for humans is long gone in the UK, its use for animals was common in the East Riding (Yorkshire) into the 70s, and may still be for all I know. A local giving directions would routinely say to turn (or to keep on) at the gibbet. Beside many a keeper's or gatekeeper's cottage and the ways into woodlands, would be nailed up battens of bird and small mammal corpses. They stank in warm weather, and I doubt that they had much of a deterrent effect on the wildlife (as some said they were supposed to) though they were often a useful waymark, and doubtless gave pause to the more casual trespasser. I suspect that their real purpose was that the number of recent corpses should demonstrate to a passing owner or bailiff that a given keeper was doing his job. The instantaneousness of execution by guillotine has been subject to debate. Tales are told which suggest that the head might retain some brief conciousness (such as that of two aristos who being beheaded in rapid succession, their heads were supposed to have been found to have bitten each other in the basket below the machine, having continued their mutual hatred even into death) but it would be hard to conduct any valid research on humans. Places where beheading is going on are not ideal for scientific observation. It is only fair to observe that the intention of the inventor seems to have been that execution should be quick and merciful by then-current standards. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:04 AM There is good evidence that life persists for some minutes. Calling the head's name caused the eyes to open and the lips to move. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle Date: 16 Dec 12 - 09:27 AM catch your finger grating carrots it can be quite nasty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Will Fly Date: 16 Dec 12 - 09:38 AM Well, Al, if I was a carrot and you were grating me, I'd be damned annoyed! As for dead wildlife being hung up to see, it wasn't so long ago that I drove down a country lane in Suffolk - just outside Halesworth - and saw several moles and crows hung up on a wire fence. Pour encourager les autres - to keep away! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST,Backwoodsman sans Cookie Date: 16 Dec 12 - 09:39 AM "Back, IF we are a far better nation now, it has nothing to do with the abolition of capital punishment. You might feel better about it, but that's your own personal view." Yes, it is my personal view. That's what we do on this forum, isn't it - express our personal views? You may not agree, and that's your prerogative. Makes not a scrap of difference to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:54 AM Keackle I beleave you will enjoy this award winning film about a Glasgow prison. There is nothing gory or disturbing in it. Nice song at the end. Hanging With Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 16 Dec 12 - 01:58 PM I oppose capital punishment for exactly the opposite reason from most people. My personal metaphysical journey has lead me to believe that death is no big thing. I am opposed to letting murderers off easy by hooking them up to an IV drip and sending their sorry asses off to whatever comes next. A life sentence with no chance of parole is real punishment. The perpetrator has to face what he did until the day he dies of natural causes. A death sentence merely sends the guy home from school early. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: JohnInKansas Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:29 PM The "humane treatment" used by many animal control/welfare agencies in the US is an anaerobic chamber, in which the air is pumpted out slowly, the animals lose consciousness painlessly, and continued evacuation of the air results in suffocation and brain death. That this is quite painless to the Typically a group of candidate pilots are placed in a chamber and the "altitude" is raised. Somewhere above about 10,000 ft equivalent, a subject is told to remove his/her oxygen mask and tell a story. When the selected person passes out, the instructor slaps a mask back on them and they are immediately(?) revived and continue the story at precisely the same point where they lost consciousness. It is typically necessary to play back the video of the session before the subject who passed out will believe they were ever unconscious. (That they continue at precisely the same point where they stopped has been cited by some as proof that nothing happens and no "feelings" are perceived, while they are unconscious.) A variation on this method has been recommended by advocates for terminally ill persons seeking advice on suicide. About all that can really be said about that variation is that no complaints have ever been voiced by anyone who used the method successfully. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Raedwulf Date: 16 Dec 12 - 02:58 PM Back - yes, it is what a forum is for, and I wouldn't expect my opinion to make a scrap a difference to yours. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just object to opinion being presented as fact; it isn't. On which subject, Musket - piss off. No point in saying anything else to you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Raedwulf Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:01 PM John, that's very interesting. Not something I've come across before, thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Joe_F Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:16 PM The people who are perhaps most concerned with humane methods are those who believe that suicide is licit in some circumstances. Their consensus seems to be immersion in an oxygen-free atmosphere. It is said to produce unconsciousness in about 5 seconds and death in about 5 minutes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:41 PM I was referring to the Halifax Gibbet. I didn't know of the other ones. Boy, you folks really know how to cut up in your neck of the woods. You're real stampeders. =(:-( )) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Don Firth Date: 16 Dec 12 - 03:51 PM Well, whatever happens, don't lose your head. CLICKY. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp Date: 16 Dec 12 - 06:47 PM A real pain in the neck is what I call it. - Chongo |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 16 Dec 12 - 08:11 PM Just don't stick your neck out. Keep cool.You don't want to lose your head. =(:-( 0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Dec 12 - 09:11 PM Hey, but you'll never need another haircut. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 16 Dec 12 - 10:38 PM or a close shave..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: gnomad Date: 17 Dec 12 - 02:42 AM No more headaches. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie Date: 17 Dec 12 - 02:42 AM Touchy.. I rest my case. We are a better country for not murdering society's problems. For starters we exhibit civilisation rather than refusing to confront and deal with issues. That isn't a view but a statement of fact. However we are still a free society so if anybody does wish to see it return then their view is a view. As it is a view that is rather disturbing to decent people then it betrays a personality disorder. Sady that's something neither health nor the judiciary are good at dealing with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:38 AM It's just what the 1% used to do to the rest of us. And something they'd like to return to. =(:-( )) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: MGM·Lion Date: 17 Dec 12 - 03:40 AM You rather spoil your argument with the tendentiousness of the end of your 4th para, Musket. I am, as I have often posted, profoundly ambivalent on this issue. So does that mean to you that I must be suffering from a, perhaps milder, form of 'personality disorder'? If so, could you bear to try & diagnose it for me? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Raedwulf Date: 17 Dec 12 - 07:43 AM [i]As it is a view that is rather disturbing to decent people then it betrays a personality disorder.[/i] Typical. This is why I don' feel it's worth wasting (m)any words on you. Your view is your view. My view is my view. How about you try expressing your view without invariably descending into sneering, condescending ad hominem. I can do it, even though I'm mentally ill (according to you), so how come you can't? As for decent, how subjective a judgement can you get? Occasionally, people have told me I'm kind. I'm not; I do not do things out of an impulse of sympathy. I do things because I think they need to be done, that they are the right things to do. A lady friend descibed me as decent & honourable. She's quite right. We probably agree on quite a lot of things, Musket. We disagree over capital punishment. That does not entitle you to belittle & insult. The only effect of that is that you make yourself look a prize jerk. Is that what you really are? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST,Doc John Date: 17 Dec 12 - 11:48 AM The brain can survive - but will increasingly fail - for about three minutes but I imagine you'd go into shock as the blade touched. I haven't tried it! Execution in a decompression chamber in which the air is progressively pumped out must be quite a humane, almost pleasant way to go. It's rather like becoming slowly drunk and, yes, I have tried in under medical supervision and for a valid reason.This is not the same as asphyxiation when carbon dioxide builds up in the body causing increasing distress, which must be a horrible death. Lethal injection to me seems almost the nastiest of the lot: there's something particularly distasteful about dressing up something brutal and savage as something clinical. Who inserts the needle; who presses the plunger? A least the guy with the axe is a honest thug! And it can be slow and painful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: olddude Date: 17 Dec 12 - 12:50 PM What a terrible thread. Ok Henry now you will be hanged drawn and quartered whatever that meant :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 17 Dec 12 - 02:39 PM They used to kill little children for stealing a crust of bread. They were so harsh. We should abolish capital punishment here in Amerika. =(:-( 0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST,olddude Date: 17 Dec 12 - 02:47 PM capital punishment is just vengeance it is not justice. I agree no civilized nation should do such a thing |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:04 PM Im a prize jerk. Luckily so are a huge majority of the population. People with moral issues have views. Courts and psychiatric assessments still form judgements based on those views as expressed. Capital punishment isn't a subject with views. It designates whether social maturity is or is not in a person's psych. I gladly give no quarter whatsoever on that subject. Appeasing people by respecting such views is not helpful. Sorry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:12 PM The used that Halifax Gibbet to behead people for stealing. Cloth mostly. Ghastly! =(:-( o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 17 Dec 12 - 05:47 PM In most civilised countries, the death penalty was abolished in defiance of popular opinion. As those societies absorb the reality that they manage just as well without it, popular support diminishes. This is the case in the UK, for instance, where support was once around 70 per cent and is now down to about 50 per cent. (Some stats here.) In the US, capital punishment was de facto abolished after Furman v Georgia in 1972, and put back in play with Gregg v Georgia in 1976. Gary Gilmore was the first to take advantage, using it to achieve his suicide by proxy. This makes the US the only country in the world and in history, as far as I can ascertain, to have achieved abolition and then gone backwards (as I would describe that direction of travel). |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Joe_F Date: 17 Dec 12 - 08:55 PM GUILLOTINE, n. A machine which makes a Frenchman shrug his shoulders with good reason. -- Ambrose Bierce |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST,gillymor Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:12 PM To be hanged, drawn and quartered (less commonly "hung, drawn and quartered") was from 1351 a penalty in England for men convicted of high treason, although the ritual was first recorded during the reigns of King Henry III (1216–1272) and his successor, Edward I (1272–1307). Convicts were fastened to a hurdle, or wooden panel, and drawn by horse to the place of execution, where they were hanged (almost to the point of death), emasculated, disembowelled, beheaded and quartered (chopped into four pieces). Their remains were often displayed in prominent places across the country, such as London Bridge. For reasons of public decency, women convicted of high treason were instead burnt at the stake. - from Wiki |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 17 Dec 12 - 09:19 PM Thank God they were decent about it. =(:-( )) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: MGM·Lion Date: 18 Dec 12 - 02:14 AM As always in threads on this topic, the word 'civilised' is being flung emotively around as a sort of shibboleth with no thought as to its connotations. All 'civilisations' known to history [Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, Ancient Mesapotamia, Ancient Egypt, China, Japan, medieval, early modern and modern Europe ...] used capital punishment up to, at earliest, the C19. In what sense are those asseverating that it can form no part of the usages of a 'civilised' society using the term 'civilised', except as a loose, emotive,tendentious, catch-all, and hence entirely meaningless, boo-word? And is there not perhaps some Eurocentrist racism at work in the implication that those many societies & cultures, esp in the Mid-East & Far-East, which notoriously still readily execute people, cannot therefore be considered as 'civilisations? * ~M~ *{Get the buggers with accusations of 'racism' [another of those boo-words, actually] and they will soon stop & consider!} Let me stress yet again that I am not commenting on the use of Cap-pun, on which I am ambivalent these days; but am protesting against a distressing abuse of our beautiful and should-be-expressive language. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Musket Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:06 AM You know Michael, a word can morph into more than one (related) meaning, and dictionaries general catch up. If that weren't the case, pedantry could never exist... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Dec 12 - 04:32 AM Oh deft Monsieur Musket! A palpable hit! You know , you know - you me and Mike ought to start a dinner club - GOF - Grouchy Old friends - grouchy Old Fuckers |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: MGM·Lion Date: 18 Dec 12 - 05:26 AM There is, nevertheless, precise linguistic usage, Musket, and the other, imprecise, emotive, tendentious sort, in vogue among imprecise, emotive, tendentious non-thinkers. So --- ...♫♫·Which side are you on? ·♩·♪· Which side are you on?·♫♫... .,,. Al ~~ always be a pleasure to see you; but please do not call me grouchy just becoz I am a member of the Groucho! Why, I am the soul and epitome of amiability and affability and amicability! (and modesty) ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Ed T Date: 18 Dec 12 - 06:09 AM Death penalty statistics, country by country State Executions |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Henry Krinkle Date: 18 Dec 12 - 01:01 PM I think they should ban lethal injection and bring the guillotine to Amerika. Publically execute folks. Some hanging, drawing and quartering to warm up the audience. Burn a few women at the stake. Then bring out the centerpiece of the evening's entertainment. La Guillotine. Broadcast it all on T.V. during prime time. Maybe Amerika will get disgusted enough to ban capital punishment. =(:-( o) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST,Squeezer Date: 18 Dec 12 - 10:34 PM "Maybe Amerika will get disgusted enough to ban capital punishment." Who ya kiddin Henry? Amerika will just lurve prime-time executions. Them good ole boys will be drinking whisky and rye, and watching women burning at the stake in slo-mo on their videos. Fox won't be able to churn out the CDs fast enough. Little children were not killed for stealing bread, at least not in the UK. The penalties for theft, depending on the value of the goods stolen, were whipping, branding, transportation, and (only if the goods were worth £2 or more) death by hanging. A whole loaf of bread would be worth about 4 pence. There is a good account of 18th century justice in Britain on the Proceedings of the Old Bailey website (www.oldbaileyonline.org) where you can read transcripts of trials from 1674 to 1834. I stand to be corrected here, but I believe E. P. Thompson mentioned the last beheading in England in his "History of the Working Class", in about 1805 at Nottingham Castle. The victim was a Jacobin accused of treason. In 1905 a Dr Gabriel Beaurieux saw a criminal named Languille guillotined. When the head fell, Beaurieux called out Languille's name. The eyes opened and focused, then closed. This happened again when his name was called a second time; there was no response on the third occasion. That took perhaps 15 seconds. Whether Languille was really conscious is difficult to say - common sense suggests immediate loss of consciousness because of catastrophic loss of cerebral blood pressure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 05 Feb 13 - 10:04 AM Photographs appearing to show a blindfolded man having his fingers severed by the mechanical amputation device have been published by an official Iranian press agency. According to the INSA news service, the prisoner used to demonstrate the brutal contraption had been convicted of theft and adultery by a court in Shiraz last Wednesday. A series of pictures show three masked officials, clad entirely in black, holding the man's right hand in a vice while one turns a wheel operating the guillotine in the manner of a rotary saw. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9831727/Iran-unveils-finger-amputating-machine-for-use-on-thieves.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Donuel Date: 05 Feb 13 - 10:47 AM Guillotining is so provocative, I did a painting of one from the perspective of 8 inches in front of the face looking up as the blade just begins its cut of finality. Squeezer, The Nazis were said to outdo 15 seconds with a quick cauterization. (key words "said to") |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Feb 13 - 01:30 PM Little children were not killed for stealing bread, at least not in the UK. The penalties for theft, depending on the value of the goods stolen, were whipping, branding, transportation, and (only if the goods were worth £2 or more) death by hanging. A whole loaf of bread would be worth about 4 pence. There is a good account of 18th century justice in Britain on the Proceedings of the Old Bailey website (www.oldbaileyonline.org) where you can read transcripts of trials from 1674 to 1834. For fucksake. Britain is not England. Scottish law was nothing like that punitive, ever. Nobody got hanged for stealing in Scotland, nor did the Old Bailey deal with Scottish cases. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie Date: 05 Feb 13 - 01:46 PM Why resurrect this thread? You can't resurrect people once you have inflicted state murder on them,(yes it is murder by definition even when sanctioned by government.) So there is an amount of irony in coming back to the argument. Even when killing someone is, as Sailor Boy states, humane... Must buy a new dictionary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 05 Feb 13 - 04:05 PM The last British execution by beheading was in fact Jeremiah Brandreth in 1817. He was Hung and Beheaded for treason in Derby. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: gnu Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:05 PM Murder def... 1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought. I rest my case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Guillotine From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:24 PM Capital punishment is under English law murder since 1765. Those implicated from courts to executioners were exempt from culpability. Real case rested. Can't answer for other countries but there again my conscience doesn't have to live there. |
