BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?

Subject: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 12:59 PM

An analysis by one of my favourite writers, Will Self. Of the somewhat ambivalent attitude of us the Brits, to you, the Americans.


BBC page.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 01:13 PM

Do you mean North, Central and South Americans or USA people?

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 01:19 PM

I knew some smart ass would come back with that comment. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 01:28 PM

"Americans" here, used by itself, means USA-ers. If we mean Mexicans or Canadians or anybody in Central America or the South American landmass, then we specify as such ~~

~~ as you, Mr 9, well know. You are just being roguish!.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:08 PM

As an alien permanent resident of the USA, I can give the opinion of the small sample of US Americans, a few dozen in various walks of life, I have talked to about such things.

They don't know about subtleties like "ambivalent attitudes" they don't care. They do care about trade relationships. They care about people in other countries burning the flag. They care about whether or not countries go to war with them but they don't really keep track of which ones did. For example many think that Canada sent soldiers to Viet Nam and Australia didn't.

You want to talk about ambivalent attitudes? Most Americans know a lot more about the Beatles than The Lend/lease program.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:17 PM

I know that Australia DID send troops to Vietnam and Canada did not. But then I intended to do a Masters in history about the war there. I recall having over 250 paperbacks written by vets who served in Vietnam, and with those books was Stanley Karnow's excellent book on the war. I'd intended to write my thesis on the affect of war on personality. Unfortunately, I got a teaching job and dropped out after receiving my B Ed.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:25 PM

I had some native American friends when I lived in Ottawa. A lot of their older brothers and sisters served in the US military during that war.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:28 PM

Is there some reason why one country should care how another country feels about them? Are you concerned about how Americans perceive England?

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:34 PM

Not really, Wesley, but then again perception is one's introduction to the reality of any situation.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:39 PM

We Americans probably have the same view of us... Yeah, the parts of America that we love, we love but...

...the parts we hate, we hate...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:42 PM

Wow. Those are really...

Deep Thoughts

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:46 PM

Yeah!

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:52 PM

I always find it interesting to see how I/we are perceived by other folks. No sleep lost, just healthy curiosity. As Rabbie Burns said.

"O wad some powr, the giftie gie us,
Tae see oorselves as ithers see us"

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 02:55 PM

9... THE situation. And, that "situation" IS important. It, as I have posted about MANY times, is skewed. I believe it seriously detracts from the perceptions of most people ALL over this earth, beyond Brits and Yanks and Canucks and Indians and and and... literally - everyone.

I have been taken to task and denegrated because of my views. John points to a "situation" that is gravely needed to be thought about... mulled over... discussed and certainly not given short shrift. To say, "Who gives a shit?" is a typical attitude of no particular citizen but of the masses who don't give a shit or cannot see why this shit matters. After all, we are all in this together. Understanding each other is the only way we can can STAY IN IT together.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 03:01 PM

One of many reasons I have always liked you is that even when we argue we agree.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 03:11 PM

Over 10-15 years of Mudcat, I have seen numerous Brits make 'remarks' (often critical) about the USA or its policies, characteristics, attitudes..etc. In most of those remarks I detect a basic unfamiliarity or lack of comprehension of just how large & diverse this country is!
Yes.. I know... the UK is quite diverse also: but the differences are not so large when carefully considered. The UK has a variety of dialects, food preferences, music, etc...etc... but because the country is fairly small,they mostly seem to recognizable to each other.... and there are 800-900 years of history to 'set' many concepts.

It is hard to comprehend how varied and widely separated US places & people are. It is only in the last 100 years that relatively easy travel was possible... and regional differences were even more extreme until paved highways and radio & TV in the 30s, 40s & 50s made it possible to really 'share'.

The USA, due to distance & the way the Constitution was worded, has this history of "states rights" that further serves to avoid 'being like THEM' (up there-down there...etc.)

Sometimes I think the image of "herding cats" was invented to characterize the effort to get Americans to agree on anything.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 04:06 PM

With substantially more than that land area and 1/10th the population, we Canadians do know how you feel.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 04:50 PM

That article exposes a deep rift between two peoples but also reveals profound connections. I suspect that there is really no way of totally knowing, and therefore fully understanding, each other. But then, do the English actually understand the Scots? The Irish? The Welsh?(Well, maybe the Welsh. :)

Maybe we don't need to understand more than just the recognition that we are alike in essence. Maybe with a healthy application of tolerance and bemusement we can live forever alongside each other. Kind of like inlaws.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 04:51 PM

"800-900 years of history"

Oh, shit! HERE comes some serious thread drift. Bill... gee whiz, man!... get yer oil clothes on.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:01 PM

I sometimes thought of contemporary UKers and Europeans and Asians as having been alive all of those thousands of years, and that they/you were therefore wiser than we with our paltry history. The Mudcat has forever disabused me of that notion. :)

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:11 PM

Hey, honey, how's things?

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:21 PM

Well, I am runnin out of ales, 9. Ya wanna make a run?

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: olddude
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:53 PM

Most American's would say here is a quarter call someone you think cares. That is the truth ... most are too wrapped up in their own lives trying to make a living to give a crap actually. People in politics care I am sure, but most American's could care less actually unless it directly impacts them

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:59 PM

That may be true of Americans where you live, Dan, and that's sad - but it certainly doesn't describe the people I know in Juneau, Alaska. We tend to be very aware and involved.

If you were speaking to me, Bruce, I'm fine, thanks. Still haven't gotten under a roof of my own but very comfortable with friends. All in good time...

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 06:14 PM

(gnu... I did consider how many years of UK history to refer to. 900 seemed to cover most of the recent setup... ;>).. The Picts, Saxons, Vikings, Romans...etc. aren't exactly identifiable as such today)

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 06:18 PM

Ebbie, that's great. You ever get to Quebec, we have a room for you, and a bath, shower, hidden cameras, fridge, stove and food. Laundry facility, five squirrels, skunk, two chipmunks, four different kinds of woodpeckers and all kinds of birds Mandy knows about and I don't. I keep saying I'll get pigeons for dinner and she keeps saying no thank you. Jeeze. Instead, I get rabbits and then I have to eat alone. Glad you survived the tsunami.

I always thought that was a wrap on egg rolls. It's difficult to be bilingual, especially when both languages are English.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 06:22 PM

Yes.. I know... the UK is quite diverse also: but the differences are not so large when carefully considered. The UK has a variety of dialects, food preferences, music, etc...etc... but because the country is fairly small,they mostly seem to recognizable to each other.... and there are 800-900 years of history to 'set' many concepts.

The UK is a younger country than the US (dating only to 1800) and there is, right now, a serious political movement with mass support and a good chance of disuniting it. Nothing like that in the US.

The UK also has 8 different mutually incomprehensible indigenous languages. The only languages the US has that predate 1776 are the Native American languages and Spanish, and two English dialects (Gullah and everything else). Both countries have the same range of immigrant languages (which is why my partner keeps a Somali dictionary beside the phone).

Food preferences? Both countries have what you expect from running an empire.

Music? American music is everywhere. So are Adele and bagpipes.

Hire a friggin fact checker before posting next time.


Will Self is a hack and that article was a typical piece of not-quite-celebrity-paid-by-the-word fluff. He even got his punchline factually wrong (civil servants haven't worn pinstripes for years, the cliche makes as much sense as "folkies in aran sweaters").

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:02 PM

What time is it? Half six! I don't know what it means but I'm told it isn't three.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:05 PM

"...we have a room for you, and a bath, shower, hidden cameras, fridge, stove and food. Laundry facility, five squirrels, skunk, two chipmunks, four different kinds of woodpeckers and all kinds of birds Mandy knows about and I don't."

How can I resist? :)

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:06 PM

Singular places take plural verbs- Manchester are ..... The army are .....

All right, already! Get a life!

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:11 PM

"Your opinion of me is none of my business."

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:23 PM

9... come on now, you must know about birds... you snagged a great one. >;-0. Lucky bugger.

Bill...." The Picts, Saxons, Vikings, Romans...etc. aren't exactly identifiable as such today" No Celts in there? I'd say they they are identifiable and predate most but the Picts... who fucked over the Celts big time, from what I have been told (I am NOT a history buff so don't use that as a rebuttal.... what I posted still fies... I think?)? Was it the lowland Picts who were hired by the "Romans" to expel...


I am not a history buff... and I am watching NFL football. It's better than this. Later maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:27 PM

When I'm speaking to, and reading comments from, people in the UK and elsewhere about the US, I generally don't recognize the country that I've lived in for these 60-plus years...and that includes erudite but somewhat uninformed articles by Nial Ferguson, and The Economist in general. It generally seems that nothing west of Washington and New York really penetrates the "foreign" consciousness, while what happens in those places (other than how it directly effects us) is generally pretty unimportant to those of us in the other 99% of the country.

I am, BTW, afraid that Mr. Campin knows very little about the English language as spoken in the US. Most of us understand TV English (a flat Midwestern dialect), and can speak it if necessary - just as I expect most Brits can do the same with BBC English. There are many "dialects" besides Gullah, and the Cajun-speaking population of Louisiana would be very surprised to learn that their language did not predate 1776.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:41 PM

"The UK is a younger country than the US (dating only to 1800) and there is, right now, a serious political movement with mass support and a good chance of disuniting it. Nothing like that in the US."

Horseshit limey technicality. Since Henry and Liz, at least, the country has been England and what can control. That is just as stupid as call Wales and Scotland countries today.

"The UK also has 8 different mutually incomprehensible indigenous languages."

This country has dozens of indigenous languages, probably hundreds. Do you think that a Cherokee understands Navaho? I'd be surprised if there weren't 8 in Alaska alone. Then there are Hawaiian languages, Cajun french, African American dialects.


The only languages the US has that predate 1776 are the Native American languages and Spanish, and two English dialects (Gullah and everything else). Both countries have the same range of immigrant languages (which is why my partner keeps a Somali dictionary beside the phone).

French predates 1776, New York was New Amsterdam. Which did they speak when they settled? English, Spanish or Gullah?

There are separatists here. And a UK breakup only makes sense for the smaller entities in the context of the EU.

"Hire a friggin fact checker before posting next time."

Yes, Do that!

Jack!

I figure were kidding and just ranting for the fun of it. Me too!!

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:44 PM

nothing west of Washington and New York really penetrates, Except for the part west of the Rockies, south of Portland.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:59 PM

Actually the UK as currently constituted only dates back to the 1920s, when most of Ireland left, meaning the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland ceased to exist. A pretty 'young' country, with as Jack Camplin points out a good chance of ceasing to exist as such within a few years.

Is it fair to suggest that one major difference between the USA and pretty well every other country is that Americans tend to believe that other people ought to love America, and feel offended if they don't - and generally people of other countries, if they ever think about stuff like that, tend to assume that nobody loves them, and rather relish that?

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 08:02 PM

And, the Yanks got a better game of football, so there!

Yes... I am very serious.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 08:06 PM

What a pity no one else seems to agree with that, gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 08:08 PM

And his point is.....

Will Self has got verbal diarrhoea.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Elmore
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 08:31 PM

Tossup.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 08:48 PM

McGrath... they would if they understood Yankee football. Many threads... many times... and youse still don't "understand"... ya can't teach an old dog new tricks they say... they are right. And youse old dogs lose out. It's YOUR loss. I watch football, rugby, Yankee football... blah blah blah.

Hmmm. Allow me an analogy... Blue Dot Squash is to Yellow Dot Squash as is rugby to Yankee football... fucking boring and a sport for the physically weak. Another... cricket (although more entertaining than Yankee cricket) takes DAYS to play and Yanks don't have that kinda time so MODERNIZE!

Many threads. Many times. You only take away from yourself by not getting into it. I watch, and love them all. Except squash becasuse, even tho Yellow Dot Squash is the most demanding, all they televise here is Blue Dot... and... and... RAQUETBALL! Honest! They put that shit on TV!!!! It's sick, I tell yas! SICK!

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 08:54 PM

Why should people in other countries love the US - and why should we give a shit one way or the other?

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:12 PM

John,

when I saw your post and then read through the piece, I didn't really have any thoughts worth sharing because I am unfamiliar with both the writer and also don't have a clue as to how accurately he might be portraying common or general attitudes of the general population in the UK toward the people of the USA. Folks who post here on Mudcat are not particularly representative of the general populations of the countries and regions in which they live as best I can tell. In terms of the USA and Canada, it is clear that liberals and progressives are way over-represented as compared to the general USA and Canadian populations. I am guessing the same holds true for those who often post here from the UK, except that the social and political history of the UK is sufficiently different from this side of the pond that terms such as liberal and progressive have somewhat different definitions, reflecting differences in our sociopolitical histories.

Kevin, no, I don't think it is fair to make the generalization that we USA Americans think everyone ought to love us and are offended if they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:24 PM

"Hire a friggin fact checker before posting next time."

My gracious, Jack! I'm SURE you can recommend one... even though the point wasn't about specific technical dates or recent linguistic anomalies, but merely an attempt to describe why it is harder to generalize about certain US idiosyncrasies.

I see a couple of others have pointed out teensy little aspects of your repy that miss the point... saving ME the trouble of 14 paragraphs of explanatory footnotes to my hastily assembled 'facts'.

----------------------------------------
McGrath..
Is it fair to suggest that one major difference between the USA and pretty well every other country is that .... etc...etc...

Why no, I don't believe it is.... no more than it would be to suggest that Brits believe... X,Y, Z. Pretty broad brush there...

-------------------------

gnu... I left the Celts out on purpose because they ARE an exception.It wasn't meant to be a complete list.

------------------

I guess I will never understand why folks will focus on minute details instead of basic conceptual points.... unless there is a disagreement ABOUT minute details.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:26 PM

(...and John's question WAS "So Americans, what do you think of this?"

I tried to answer that...

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:30 PM

Anyone want another British writer's article on certain issues?

*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:37 PM

Canadian football beats them all. The British/Irish type ain't football, it's soccer. The American type is almost like Canadian except for the field size, downs and number of players.

Oh, yes, and rules. No offense, at least in the British or American types :-)


There, that oughta piss 'em all off, hahaha.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:38 PM

Folks who are clueless will always change the subject, BillD... They will come up with any other conversation other than the one at hand...

Think back to the *Mad-Dash-to-Iraq* days here and all the arguments for going into Iraq... They were "small ball" arguments that had nothing to do with the big picture... The small ballers won and we ended up with the worst war since, ahhhh, maybe forever...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:41 PM

Yep, Bobert... we have our share of lunkheads.. but haven't cornered the market on 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 10:05 PM

The Irish of football isn't actually Association Football, it's Gaelic Football, a very entertaining game which hasn't spread, though they play an even more entertaining variant in Australia on a cricket pitch with a Rugby ball.

The American version just looks a bit too bizarre, with all that Kinky Star Trek type body armour.

Now baseball is a far better sport. And Jane Austen liked it before it emigrated.

We ar drafting. But maybe that's better than putting too much attention on generalisations about millions of people who aren't clones.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 10:18 PM

Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 10:22 PM

Janie, assuming Kevin was addressing the sane person here, I must agree.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Janie
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 10:44 PM

And which person might that be Bruce? (*grin* best you don't answer)

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 10:58 PM

I daresay the "ambivalent attitudes" Brits have toward America are no more or less ambivalent than the attitudes most Americans have toward America. Embracing some aspects of American culture while rejecting others is not a form of ambivalence practiced by Brits alone. We Yanks have been doing it since 1776. Contrary to what the people of some countries seem to believe, American society is far from monolithic. We even have a few people who refuse to eat at MacDonald's or (gasp!) watch reality television programs.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 11:21 PM

"Actually the UK as currently constituted only dates back to the 1920s, when most of Ireland left, meaning the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland ceased to exist. A pretty 'young' country, with as Jack Camplin points out a good chance of ceasing to exist as such within a few years"

In that case, the USA as currently constituted only dates back to the 1950s when Alaska and Hawaii joined.

I still think that Jack must have been joking and ranting for fun.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 01:58 AM

"In that case, the USA as currently constituted only dates back to the 1950s when Alaska and Hawaii joined."JtS

Not only in the 1950s- it was LATE in the 50s: Alaska became a state in January and Hawaii in August- both in 1959.

The United Kingdom may be young but Great Britain is not. :)

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 02:30 AM

People have different dates as to when the state came into being so I suppose it depends on what criteria they use. The Scottish monarch James VI inherited the English throne on the death of Elizabeth I of England in 1603. Wales at that time was politically regarded as part of the English kingdom itself and the English monarchs through conquest were already monarchs of Ireland too. However Scotland, England and Ireland remained separate (ie kingdoms) states. The Act of union between Scotland and England in 1707 wound up both those kingdoms and did actually create a new united kingdom of Great Britain. This was more commonly called simply 'Great Britain' though it could be claimed the UK dates from this time and that the 1801 union with Ireland was simply an extension of the borders just as the US has expanded since it was created!Others will say the UK proper was created in 1801 though it was of course reduced in the 20thC. I'm not sure which one to plump for!

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 03:52 AM

...........ever heard the term 'sweeping generalisations' ?

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 03:58 AM

I found Will Self's article longwinded and tedious. It seems to me that the main differences between the UK and the US boil down to three things - god, guns and dentistry.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 04:35 AM

Pity that some folks can't just say "I disagree with your point", and then proceed to give their reasons, backed by facts where possible. Without miscalling the other person, in the process.

The good thing about the internet, is that you can get to the end of your argument, without interruption.

The bad thing about the internet, is that you can get to the end of your argument, without interruption.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 04:38 AM

Will Self is a clever and often charming man, but he sometimes gets a bit too clever for his own good - and he likes to start a bit of controversy for its own sake from time to time.

Surely a straightforward attitude would be that, like all countries, the US and the UK contain wide varieties of opinions, arguments, viewpoints, likes, dislikes and prejudices - both against and for each other. Sweeping generalisations, as another poster pointed out, are pretty pointless.

I don't have ambivalent attitudes to the US or any other country - I form opinions about the people that I meet at an individual level, as they will about me - and form other opinions about, say, a country's foreign or domestic policies. That's not being ambivalent - it's simply taking each instance and situation and individual as it/he/she arises, and coming to some conclusion or other.

The Americans that I've met in the UK have, without exception, been charming and kindly people. Mrs. F. - who's travelled extensively in the US - has, without exception, been treated efficiently, courteously and hospitably by everyone she met (even by New York immigration officials!). But we would still take issue with much of America's foreign policy - and the same goes for our own people and foreign policy in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 05:00 AM

Well said, Will, IMO a very balanced view. Quite correct that one can have an opinion on a country's foreign policies, and form conclusions resulting from individual contacts with American folk, but generalisations are useless. I have always thought Will Self to be rather off-centre and muddled. His style is over-complex and hard to decipher. I do think many prejudices remain even now from WW2 about Americans. In my experience, prejudice arises from total ignorance or any actual contact, travel or study of a people. Billy Connelly has always impressed me with his attitude that Nationalism, flag waving and criticism of other lands arising from over-patriotism is not to be encouraged. In these modern times, 'what we think of eachother' is very childish and old-hat. 'How we can work together' is a better basis for progress.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 06:38 AM

I worked with Americans for over 20 years (Unisys, Price Waterhouse) and got on great with all of them. Well, all but on (who nobody got on with, so it wasn't me.

One aspect I really loved: tell them this is what we have to do and they immediately start thinking about how to get it done, as opposed to my home teams who would immediately start telling me why it couldn't be done. Maybe that's a bit binary and a bit of a generalisation, but that's my experience.

I'm reminded of the story of the clean-up guys after the 9/11 rescue searches had been called off. Surveying the mountains of debris, one guy says "Geez, where do we start?". His supervisor looks down at his feet and says "right here". Says it all for me.

Another story: I was in NYC working and on my last day I went to Rudy's Music Stop (West 48th Street) and came out with a beautiful Taylor 514. Back at the office I was saying I didn't fancy lugging it all the way back to the hotel and back again the next morning (those Taylor cases are HEAVY) and wondering where I could leave it overnight. The head of PW (and I mean the world-wide head of PW, the really big boss) overheard and says you can leave it in my office, it'll be safe there...and he hadn't got a clue who I was.

As I said, my experience.

Pete

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 07:42 AM

Seeing what needs to be done and doing it is great. But the first part of that sentence is the more important part. And the most important thing is to recognise when we got it wrong.

And I don't think any governments in any country are very good at that last bit.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 08:04 AM

I keep hearing in the US of A media that "The US of A is the leader of the free world".

I question that this is anywhere accurate, and if it were so at one point, it is indeed less so recently and today.

Do you feel this is so, and if so, how so? What is your view? Did it ever lead others in this task, or has it mostly taken care of it's own interests (including USA business interests).

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 08:14 AM

Will Fly touches on a point I was mulling over.

"I don't have ambivalent attitudes to the US or any other country - I form opinions about the people that I meet at an individual level, "

Will Self's writing style, while entertaining is less than clear and informative. He seems to be taking the attitude of a person or group and projecting it on the whole of the UK, then taking the attitude of another person or group, projecting it on the whole of the UK and calling it ambivalence. Some people like the US some, some don't. Some like President Obama. Some don't. Some people in the UK think Romney is a jackass. Other people say "Who is Romney?" That is not ambivalence. That is individuality.

On an individual level, you can enjoy Hollywood movies and also dislike the foreign policies of the government. That is not ambivalence it is discernment. You can enjoy McDonald's and not like slow cooked pork BBQ with North Carolina style dipping sauce. That is not ambivalence. It is ignorance. :-D

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Will Fly
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 08:55 AM

I'm afraid your point is also rather obscure to me, Jack.

"Ambivalence" - literally, "equal value", if I remember my Latin correctly - is the state of holding two or more conflicting opinions about something. In that sense, to say, "I both love and hate America" is indeed a statement of ambivalence - but, IMO, a very simplistic one.

I just think the whole business is more complex than that. 'America' is the sum of its parts - parts which are multifaceted and diverse. And any or all of us can have many, many opnions on all these parts... Hell - we can even be ambivalent about the ambivalence of ambivalences...

But, out of curiosity, what exactly is North Carolina style dipping sauce?

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 09:21 AM

Well, what a lot of people don't get, is that Will Self's writings, are usually ironic, and quite often self mocking. It would be a mistake to take many of his writings as gospel.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 09:22 AM

What do I, individually, think of the statement that "The US of A is the leader of the free world"? Well, not much and not often...but consider the point that a fairly large amount of US media - and, I think, UK media - is owned by a certain Australian.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 09:24 AM

Why should we give a shit what others think of us? No man is an island.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 09:42 AM

"Billy Connelly has always impressed me with his attitude that Nationalism, flag waving and criticism of other lands arising from over-patriotism is not to be encouraged"

Mind a fair few people in Scotland might suggest the opposite though. That he is an old style unionist who's contributions to the debate within Scotland have on the whole been on the negative side. Nationalism is nationalism whether it is of the Scottish or wider Briitsh variety. From his early time on Parkinson where he suggested the SNP were Calvinists so an indepedent Scotland would be more ruled by the church; to his wee pretendy parliament jibes; to his basically suggesting that SNP supporters are bigots. He's never really contributed positively to the debate or even some would say in any kind of fair and balanced manner.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 09:46 AM

Maybe a wee bit unfair on him over the Calvinist thing! The other points stand though

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 10:40 AM

and not a single mention of Downton Abbey.

You Brits do realize that half the population over here thinks Masterpiece offerings present the True Britain. That includes House of Cards.

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 10:51 AM

Downton Abbey was dreamed up by Julian Fellowes, to cash in on the apparently bottomless hunger for custume drama.
House of Cards, at least has the distinction of being based on a book, written by Michael Dobbs, a political insider.
Certainly the latter has the ring of truth, while the former is arrant nonsense. IMNSHO

Subject: RE: BS: So Americans, what do you think of this?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jan 13 - 11:57 AM

>>"Ambivalence" - literally, "equal value", if I remember my Latin correctly - is the state of holding two or more conflicting opinions about something. In that sense, to say, "I both love and hate America" is indeed a statement of ambivalence - but, IMO, a very simplistic one.<<

I realize that it is meant to be amusing and probably tongue in cheek, but over the course of the piece, Self makes the point that some love America for one reason and other people hate it for another, and that some people love one aspect of the United States of America but hate another.

' literally, "equal value"' That is exactly what I am getting at. Are ones feelings about politics of equal value as ones feelings about movies? Are they so closely related that they tend to cancel each other out?   Leading to ambivalence?

Can you really say that the UK is ambivalent because some of the population likes something and some other segment of the country does not? I think you would have to show that the vast majority of the country held those feeling of ambivalence and that the things they held differing feelings about were more or less equivalent to make that case.

Politics vs movies. Not a fair call. Besides, "Hollywood" movies are an international game. Where were Star Wars and Dr. Strangelove filmed; LOTR and The Hobbit? The Matrix? What was the nationality of the auteur behind Gladiator and Alien?, Titanic & Avatar, Brokeback Mountain? How many Canadians, Brits and Aussies star in Hollywood films?

Self presents amusing arguments, but they don't stand up to much consideration.



http://allrecipes.com/recipe/eastern-north-carolina-bbq-sauce/