BS: Sacristan Duties

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 11:10 AM

I have never stood to receive communion Keith. Only an elderly lady who cannot kneel stands to receive it. (I often help her up to the altar). We also kneel to pray. (This is in the Church of England) But I have attended many many Catholic masses and there everyone stands to receive and also to pray. I truly have no problem with ritual directly connected to the service (eg Communion, Evensong etc, such as lighting candles) It's a way of doing honour to God, and continues traditions. What I find impossible to accept and to carry out is superstitious nonsense connected to mere objects long after the service is over, such as treating a bit of cloth as if it were a Holy Hanky. It's not as if I cleaned the toilet with it, just popped it in the washing machine as anyone with any sense would do. Actually, I don't even hold with revering objects supposedly directly connected with Jesus ('relics', Turin Shroud etc) They are just physical items and no different to any other items. In my opinion one loses the point by concentrating on these instead of directing one's attentions to carrying out the religion (ie trying to do good, helping others, praying for others, making an effort to do no harm etc etc) Waving Holy Hankies about won't help anyone to do this!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:37 AM

In my experience as a UK Catholic, Keith, *everyone* stands to receive communion, unless they are wheelchair bound, or similar. After communion, most sit or kneel.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:29 AM

Joe, I do not think anyone stands for communion in UK, Catholic or not, unless they have a physical difficulty.
Anyone else confirm my experience?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: ranger1
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:23 AM

But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: ranger1
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:23 AM

Ake, Joe illustrates the difference between being a person of faith and a blind follower of dogma. There is a difference between what Christ taught and what church establishment has turned it into. There is comfort in ritual, but ritual doesn't have to be static. I'm not Christian, either, I don't see Christ as the messiah, more of a social reformer and spiritual teacher, one of many from many different faiths. What Joe is doing in the church is using his faith to influence the social change that I think Christ the man was trying to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:15 AM

No, Stringsinger, it's near Durham (UK)

;-)

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 09:36 AM

Sacristan, is that near Uzbekistan? (Or uzbekibekistan)?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 07:03 AM

Joe, as an atheist who understands the beneficial effects of "faith" in our society, I can never get my head around where you fit into the picture.
You appear to see the place of ritual in your faith yet seem eager to rock the boat on almost every occasion available.
Even to me, kneeling before your "god" seems emminently sensible, surely a form of worship?...I sometimes say a silent "prayer" for the survival of the forces of nature against the sustained attacks of "civilisation"....and would do so on my knees without a thought.
Even as an atheist, I am only too aware of my place in the great scheme of things!
I also do not understand your embrace of political policies designed in many cases to destroy religion, like the redefinition of Christian marriage.
Do you not realise that the people who promote these policies are the most voluble enemies of religion, which they see as the last bastion of conservatism. "Gay marriage" constitutes a veritable fifth column within the church.
"Turning the other cheek" is a laudable christian principle, but in these changed days, could turn out to be a painful "thorn in the flesh" :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 09:08 PM

Oy, Joe. If only we could clone you and your spirit. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if they put you in charge, or even just listened to you, the Catholic church wouldn't have no problems.

Just sayin'.

On a trivial personal note, the day I was received as an Episcopalian was the same day the beautiful aumbry was dedicated in our pretty little church. Every time I see it, I feel a little bit special : )

There's a place for such frippery. No more, no less.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 06:30 PM

What's wrong with kneeling to receive communion, MG? Nothing, if that's what you like. But to me, kneeling seems like a symbol of subservience to authority. My relationship with God isn't subservient.

For me, it's a symbol of a rigid, harsh, legalistic form of Catholicism that is distasteful to me. I'd rather enjoy being a Catholic.

And it you have some kneelers and some standers, it make a confusing mess out of distributing communion. Same after communion - if some kneel, some sit, and some stand - the people don't mesh very well together in the pews unless the church is very sparsely filled.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,MG
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 09:07 AM

what is wrong with kneelig? i dno admit i do not like sticking my tongue out and never do but i don't mind kneeling in the least. also why don't people kneel after commun ion? makes no sense to me..i always kneel after communion. and don't drink the wine except for a couple times just so on judgement day i could say i did.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:58 AM

When I have got a bug I just dip the wafer instead of sipping.
Some choose to do that when flu is about.

My Mary's Methodist church uses individual "shot" type glasses.
Methodists do not have the protection of alcohol in the wine.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:40 AM

Hi, Melissa -

I like teaching people about these things. Our religious education director has me teach the kids this stuff because they like my stories. I'm not much for rules and regulations, but I love the richness of traditions and the stories behind them - even the quirky stories. I know the rules and regulations better than just about any priest I know - it's a good defense against the legalists who try to force others to do things their way.

In the Roman church, the corporal (square cloth folded into nine squares) is used on the altar underneath golden vessels holding the consecrated bread and wine. I suppose there are all sorts of interpretations of its purpose - simply put, it signifies that place on the altar as a special, sacred place. Functionally, it also serves to keep the main altar cloth clean. It's used only on the altar.

The purificator (oblong cloth used for wiping the chalice) is just a white cloth - don't know if it's required to be linen, but it's usually called "linen." I suspect it's usually cotton - synthetics supposedly tend to scrape the gold plating off the chalice. Sometimes, a purificator will be used for holding gold vessels that are likely to be damaged by fingerprints. Purificators are portable, multi-purpose cloths, and corporals stay on the altar.

But no, there is no disinfectant other than the alcohol in the wine, and there's no belief that consecration kills germs. Our lay ministers do use hand sanitizer before distributing communion, however. Ever since communion "under both species" (bread and wine) was instituted after Vatican II in the 1970s, there has been discussion about whether communion from a common cup is sanitary. It's optional, and conservative and squeamish people avoid the cup. People with colds also seem to be pretty good about passing the cup by.

Our bishop seems to be on the careful side, so he prohibits the cup and does not allow people to receive communion on the tongue during flu season (such as now). I suppose it's not a bad idea to be safe. Some conservatives get upset about having to receive communion in their hand, but that doesn't seem to be a big issue in our parish (the conservatives go to the other parish in town). Oh, and we're not supposed to shake or hold hands during flu season.

I heard years ago there were "studies" made that determined that the common cup was a negligible factor in the spread of disease - not that I can actually find any record of such studies. I also haven't heard of any terrible epidemics in Catholic parishes....

I can't say I think the purificator does a whole lot of good, other than stopping drips. I try to rotate it and the chalice so I'm not always using the same spot on the cloth or chalice - not that I think it helps at all, but I think people feel more comfortable when they see me make an effort. Drinking from the common cup has rich symbolism and I like it, so I've taken the risk for forty years or more. Since I'm the sacristan and more-or-less the chief usher, I'm usually the last to drink from the cup, so I suppose I get everybody's germs. I figure the slightly-drunk germs serve to strengthen my immune system.

I suppose that deep inside me, there's a defiant element that demands that I receive communion from lay ministers in my hand and from the common cup, and never while kneeling. These are privileges we won in Vatican II, and there are conservatives constantly demanding that these practices be abolished because they consider them irreverent. They want people to kneel down at a rail with their tongues out. So, I proudly take the cup, risk of infection be damned.

And hey, I'm still here and I'm still healthy.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:31 AM

Thank you so much for your kind comments Melissa. Isn't it great to have a thread where everyone is interesting, considerate, polite and non-confrontational? That's not to say that other people can't have a real old ding-dong battle which gets acrimonious. Mudcat is super because all kinds of discussions and tones are available, from the quiet and reflective to the furious and insulting! And you haven't pulled my thread sideways. I love it when a thread develops and twists about, just as in face-to-face conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Melissa
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 06:19 PM

This has me thinking about the last time I watched communion. It seems like the priest held the chalice with a folded napkin-looking cloth..like using a potholder. I'm pretty sure I thought he was doing that to keep from fingerprinting.
His other hand was the rim wiper.

If I'm remembering that accurately, the potholder cloth would be the Corporal (does that mean 'blood catcher only'?) and the wipey would be Purificator?

Joe,
Does the Purificator have a disinfectant on it, or is there a special blessing on it to keep germs from being shared with the wine?


I really wish we could have occasional threads where we oddly curious ones (namely Me) could just have a rambling, considerate, conversation about things like this.
I'm learning unexpected things from your hurt feeling experience, Eliza. I am glad you started this thread!

..of course, now you've got me wondering why it's ok for diluted wine (via rinse water) to be poured on good earth..but not for the rest of the bottle to be reverently disposed of the same way.

Apologies for pulling your thread a bit sideways.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 05:52 PM

Hi, Pete. Matthew 6,6.

However, I do see where you're coming from :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 03:21 PM

The cloth thing is (I think, because I only go up to the altar to kneel and take communion, you can't really see what's happening on the table throughout the service) goes under the chalice to catch any drops. There's another cloth which wipes the chalice after each person drinks. The first 'hanky' is the one you have to iron into nine equal squares. At the end of the service the vicar folds it up and drapes it over the cup before he carries it away. The second 'hanky' you don't fold into nine squares. But both should be soaked and the water gently poured onto bare earth etc etc.
I've been looking this up on Google and I think they're called 'corporal' and 'purificator' respectively, but I've no idea really, and I don't know which hanky I washed. And I shan't be offering to do it again I can tell you! I am seriously considering other churches not quite so 'high'. And if one believes in God, one feels He's everywhere anyway. And I'm sure He won't be cross about my Holy Hanky desecration!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Crowhugger
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 03:03 PM

Eliza, he set you up to fail, whether he meant to or not. Then afterwards he made sure to let you know you HAD failed. I can think of many things a decent person might do in the same situation (situation being he perhaps realized too late that he'd failed to ensure adequate laundry instructions were given), and your vicar's actions are not on the list. This man, in a position of trust and whose role is to minister to you, chose to be cruel. Your own comfy chair will make a suitable place of worship until you find a church to your liking.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Melissa
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 11:42 AM

Eliza,
You took a task with a good heart, it doesn't sound to me like you're the one that messed up and it strikes me as unkind (and unnecessarily hurtful) if someone is pointing a rude finger at you.

If this piece of fussy fabric is truly revered as sacredly precious, why was it allowed to get dingy enough to need help from a non-trained good deed doer?
Why was it put in your hands without Proper Instruction if there are unusual rules for taking care of it?



I'm not churchy and don't know much about fancy hankies.
What is the one we're talking about used for? Does it hide the bread, or is it the one for wiping spit off the cup?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 04:22 AM

Although the CoE officially rejects the doctrine of transubstantiation (see the 39 Articles of Religion in BCP), the consecrated elements are nevertheless symbols of Christ's presence. And as with other symbols - national flags, for example, or pictures of loved ones - lack of respect might cause hurt or at least discomfort to others. The degree to which this happens, and whether such feelings are reasonable, will always be one of those things on which debate is endless and profitless.

I think the bottom line is that sometimes you have to avoid treading on people's toes, sometimes it's better to suggest, politely, that they keep their toes out of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 08:07 PM

Eliza, please remember that all of this can be fun - it should be fun. If it isn't, try to figure out a way to fix it. If that doesn't work, find a better situation.
I've had to do some battling to get my church to where I feel comfortable, and I think I've been fairly successful. I have a great time every Sunday - and I have friends to lean on if somebody tries to dump on me (and church people can be especially good at dumping on people).

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 09:46 AM

You are welcome ... a breath of fresh air amongst the BS

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:49 PM

Well, thank you everyone for your comments, advice and support. I haven't discussed this with anyone as I don't feel I wanted to confide in people who know me. But it's so nice to air my concerns on Mudcat and have the kind and interested responses given here. Thank you so much, you've all helped me a great deal. Eliza x

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:06 PM

bruce-you are quite right that worship can happen outside the church but many christians see meeting together as prescibed practise to be maintained even if not entirely happy about everything or everyone in the church.hebrews 10 v24,25.
if i were to be labeled,i suppose i would be non-conformist.i believe the bread and wine are symbolic of the blood and body of Christ and should be treated reverently during the eucharist but are ordinary otherwise.i would have no argument with anyone stricter, but for me it is substance of the symbol not the substance itself that matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 03:20 PM

My first thought when I read the title was stand guard at the door and make sure nothing happens. And read up on Mahoney and Curry if you can stomach it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:49 PM

"I go to church there to worship God, which I could do in any church frankly."

You could do that OUT of any church, too. You talking to those around you or you talking to God?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:13 PM

Yes, mg, or something a bit plainer than C of E. Maybe I should follow my sister in Scotland. She's a member of the Kirk!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 01:45 PM

Perhaps you tend more toward a Quaker style of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 01:23 PM

Thank you leeneia for your sensible approach to my dilemma. No, I sometimes don't like the music all that much as they have a taste for modern 'happy clappy' songs and even the old hymns have had their words changed to be non-sexist. The sermons are a bit airy fairy at times. The oldest friends I have don't go to this (or any) church. The congregation seem more concerned about raising money for repairing the church's leaky roof and collapsing tower and don't involve themselves awfully much with the 'village people'. As the vicar is rector of six churches he doesn't have much time for individuals. If I left, I doubt whether I'd be much missed as they're rather cliquey and seem a bit hostile to newcomers. (I haven't been living here as long as some of them.) I go to church there to worship God, which I could do in any church frankly. I feel this Holy Hanky thing has brought to a head some concerns I've had for a while now.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 12:15 PM

Joe, your ineffable charm is irresistible and ineluctable.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:48 AM

Eliza wrote, "I'm seriously considering finding a more Low Church."

Let me see. Somebody, probably the old and sickly woman, criticized Eliza's laundering. Meanwhile

Do you like the music of the church, Eliza?
Does the minister give intelligent, helpful sermons?
Do you have friends there?
Does the church do good works for those who need help?
Are you turning your back on a lot of people trying to do right because one person was silly?

============
I'm reminded of the old song that jokes

Go get the ax; there's a flea in Lizzie's ear.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 11:36 AM

Davie is the tops.....Scotlands greatest poet and songwriter since Rabbie Burns.
here

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 10:02 AM

To all gentlemen of the cloth, meant in the best psossible taste.

Theres nuthin brands a man in life as plainly as his hanky

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 09:45 AM

While holy hanky washing rituals are no doubt par for the course in some Christian denominations, all that fuss over a piece of grubby linen, certainly seems like a strangely esoteric business for a Protestant church to indulge in.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:34 AM

Haha Jack! I don't suppose they had washing machines in the sixteenth century either! You know, to complete atheists, all this rigmarole must seem hilarious if not utterly contemptible!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:21 AM

I once read a book (aimed at American Jews in the 1970s) about how to keep a properly Jewish household. One little tip was that when re-using your oven for meat after cooking a milk-based dish in it or the other way round, you should work over the entire interior surface with a propane torch.

Maybe the original Hebrew version of Leviticus has propane torches in it. The English translators seem not to have understood that bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:07 AM

Sacrificing a chicken to expiate your sin should make it all good.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 08:02 AM

LOL Lizzie! I doubt whether I'll be asked again. But if so, I'll just explain it will go in with the normal 'whites' wash and if this is unacceptable, I'll suggest someone else takes it on. I feel it's best to 'get over rough ground as lightly as possible' without making a song-and-dance about it. Meanwhile I'll re-think my membership. As it is, I'm on the PCC, Friends of the Church Committee, a Reader, Sidesperson, Fundraising Committee and Church Cycle Ride Co-ordinator. So I'd better make up my mind where I stand on this one!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 07:05 AM

I'd offer to wash it every week, then throw it in the washing machine with my knickers...and hand it to the vicar with a BIG smile on my face...and catch Jesus winking at me from his stained glass window...

:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 07:01 AM

I am an Anglican and this is new to me.
It is true that the elements have to be all consumed and not left lying around once consecrated.
I have sometimes had to help finish off the wine.

My partner, a Methodist, gives the bread to the birds and hopes to be forgiven.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Michael
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 06:15 AM

Not even in the Magdalene Laundries?
(See John Mulhern's lyrics, sung by, amongst other,s Grace Notes)

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:37 AM

well, there are some stains at least in the Catholic church that no amount of angel soap can ever completely wash away. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: banjoman
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:35 AM

Strict Obvservance of ritual is, I feel, similar to the stance of the Pharisees who belived that observance of the law was all that was necessary for redemption. In the Catholic church (UK) at the present time, we are being asked to abandon years of music and hymns which we have used at services for over 40 years because they dont adhere strictly to the revised words of the liturgy.
My own feeling is that this is a ploy by the church higherarchy to curtail the power of the laity.
I believe that there are far more important things the Christian churches should be concerned about than adherence to ritual practices and words.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:35 AM

Notwithstanding any contribution from me on the subject of religion will be seen as flippant or even condescending...

I reckon that ritual is of very high importance to a religion. It is the least metaphysical and the most tangible part of the art. Considering the charity, helping others and being a god citizen part are not exclusive to religions, it just appears logical to me that ritual is taken seriously.

With regard to what Jesus would say, why don't you ask him?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Megan L
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:14 AM

Eliza talk to your minister explain to him how this has made you feel, any clergy who cares about his or her congregation will do what they can to ensure the wellbieng of the people they serve.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: gnu
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:12 AM

I don't attend regularly. Last time was at a funeral. Many of those who took communion, including me as part of my respect for the deceased, passed by the wine steward (hey, I thought it ws funny and even God likes a joke). Is this common? Is it disrespectful? I think it's "sanitary" as I really don't care to drink from the same cup used by a number of people. I had another reason but nevermind.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:05 AM

Sorry Joe, but I don't believe that Anglicans hold with the idea of transubstantiation. The whole act of communion to a Protestant is to remember Jesus' Last Supper and the subsequent sacrifice on the cross, but the bread and wine don't in any way change. We also have the vicar finish off the wine himself, it would presumably go off otherwise. Do you know, this situation has really got to me. After over sixty years in the Church of England, I never realised all the theology behind the scenes. I hope I can reconcile myself to it. If not, I'll have to decide what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:42 AM

Chalk up two points for BobL for that last post....

Touché

---

Eliza, to many Anglicans and most Roman Catholics, the wine stains are the blood of Christ, and should be dealt with respectfully. I happen to think Christ doesn't mind and doesn't get all fussy about these things, but I do think it's important to respect people's sense of what's sacred [without going crazy about it]. That being said, I'm going to try Nigel's saltwater soak - in a practical, plastic bowl. Cold or hot water, Nigel? Do you soak them continuously until you launder them?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:29 AM

A long soak (3 hours or more) in bio detergent initially at 30 deg C does the job nicely. As a small country parish church, we tend to be pragmatic about this sort of thing.

Mind you, IIRC the Book of Common Prayer does say that leftover consecrated elements should be "consumed reverently" by the celebrant assisted, if necessary, by communicant church members. We understand "reverently" to exclude saying "cheers" on draining the Cup. "The Lord Jesus, his very good health" might be marginally acceptable.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:24 AM

Wysiwyg, I'm not and never have been a member of an Altar Guild neither am I a sacristan. To me, the stains on any cloth are just wine, not Christ's blood. The rinsing water can be chucked anywhere and I'm sure God doesn't mind a bit. He's much too great to be concerned with where it goes. I imagine (perhaps I'm wrong) that He'd rather one turned one's attention to helping the struggler, than be revering a Holy Hanky. Maybe I've inherited my Presbyterian father's religious views after all. I'm just not sure I want to belong to a Church that has this stance. Obviously, there is such a thing as sacrilege and one should be respectful in church, but this is taking things too far. I need to give it some thought...