BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 02:47 PM

Once a set of concepts gets 'set' in someone's mind, however vaguely, the effort to convey the sense of it all to others in a coherent way requires, for want of a better phrase, 'linguistic creativity'... and people who basically agree that they are talking about 'something', then convince each other that they are agreeing on 'reality', when they are merely trading ambiguous, poetic language." "........... yes agree to a point.There will be some however who will see straight away what i mean because it is not new.What I think is that it is plain to see that all religions and traditions have this spiritual thing in common and they are all talking about the same thing/transformation.All the many from all traditions who have experienced this cant all be mad way too many and the wisdom gained is undeniable.I wont call it trip then dream,visions but it is more than that a lot of the time so struggle for a word.If you had the time to research all the different flavours i posted in the other post you would see they all are talking about the same process.That is a given really,whether you believe or i do is up to us but too much weight in the God/source camp for me to deny anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 02:38 PM

"I happen to think that it is intuitively obvious that God does not exist."

Anyone who believes that is very unlikely to examine at the subject at hand in a scientific manner.

If he had had the scientific training that I have had, he would not have said it.

Steve, The biggest flaw in your argument, in my humble opinion is that you project your experience in the Catholic Church with all other religion. In my small experience, I can assure you that not all denominations are nearly as dependent on generating fear.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: kendall
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 02:34 PM

I don't need a deity to know right from wrong. My basic philosophy comes from the Code of Hammurabi.Some know it as the Golden Rule.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 02:16 PM

Sorry guestlexic, but the fact that many cultures experience "the trip"... whatever that might mean... shows only that people try to grasp at words to convey ideas.

(your sentences about it are pretty rambling.. it's hard to sort out a stream of consciousness like that. The only totally clear thing you say is that "I do believe in a God/creator/architect thing now though.", which leads me to guess that you are asserting that all those different cultures and religions are just 'expressing awareness' of some metaphysical truth.... and I don't accept that.)

Once a set of concepts gets 'set' in someone's mind, however vaguely, the effort to convey the sense of it all to others in a coherent way requires, for want of a better phrase, 'linguistic creativity'... and people who basically agree that they are talking about 'something', then convince each other that they are agreeing on 'reality', when they are merely trading ambiguous, poetic language.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,guestlexic
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 01:55 PM

forgot to tag

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 01:54 PM

I put it to all the posters here if you look at all the religions with a logical mind you will see a big picture.You cant help but see it.What it is that THEY ALL are talking about in their many interpretations is the same thing.But what is it.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 01:39 PM

Done Bill D.We both might agree that anyone who says "I know this is it" knows nothing.We cant get away from the phenomena though and its profound impact on us all,whether we believe or not.The notion of God being an old man never washes,it is obviously to me a source that we can tune to.Most will have the "trip" i mention above at death i would imagine so none of us need panic even if what i posted and many others think is true.Anyway thats my religion cool when you can make your own up.(def off to hell i know)

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 12:54 PM

"I happen to think that it is intuitively obvious that God does not exist."

Well Steve, I see every explanatory point you make in defending that view, and can only disagree with the absoluteness of it. You note the ease with which children believe in stories about all sorts of stuff which *most* grownups 'know' are imaginary, but you don't seem to be able to even consider the reason(s) that grownups hold onto the 'God' concept even after outgrowing "goblins, fairies Santa, the Sandman etc."
I happen to agree with you that they should, but emotionally, culturally, and even logically, 'God' is in a different category. We don't NEED goblins & fairies & Santa to answer the basic question of our basic existence.
(I know, I DO know.... we don't really **logically** need 'God' either, but until we figure out how to inoculate folks against fear & dread & sadness and explain the inequities of life, 'God' and the idea of an afterlife provides a way to face poverty, death and the 'inequities of life'.) Who can say why you & I are [content]? with NOT having "pie in the sky", while others see no reason to go on living without that hope? (well... psychologists try hard to explain it) I claim...over & over... that our very language structure and phrasing of the issues creates a circular trap that most people find hard to escape. When someone asks: "Do you believe in God?", I reply that the very construction of the question implicitly asserts that there is one, and that because they USE the word 'belief', they should realize that the real implication is that it is NOT certain.

We differ, Steve, in that you say "intuitively obvious" that there is no 'God' and related Heaven setup, and I say "I simply see no compelling evidence, therefore I will not buy into it all." I always just shrug when someone tells me "there must be a first cause" or even stronger: "I can't imagine all the complexity of the Universe without an 'intelligent designer'!"
I just reply: "Well, *I* can't imagine any intelligence great enough to DO all the designing required... much less being able to toss atoms around like clay!"..... but, the Universe being what it is, and answers being so elusive beyond a certain point, I can't prove them wrong... and 'they' know that and cling to the emotionally useful beliefs. All I can do is say that their beliefs are JUST beliefs and have no compelling influence on my doubts.

In many ways, believing in religious stuff is just another example of the ways our large, complex brain can reflect on possibilities and imagine things that do not exist. We (well, most of us) enjoy imaginative fiction and art which draws pictures of unicorns and songs about devils and heroes all doing things that we 'know' are impossible... except that because even the weakest (as in young children) brains are capable of entertaining possibilities, even unicorns & devils are incorporated into many belief systems.
------------------------------------------------

Now, having typed all that, I have to admit that I was studiously avoiding a direct response to "gestlexic" above. That would require 6 hours to dissect.. ☺, so I will hope the 'guestlexic' will just read my reply to Steve Shaw and think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,guestlexic
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 09:51 AM

Steve great post and I identified with every word as an ex catholic and have taken a similar line until this year.I do believe in a God/creator/architect thing now though.
Red indian medicine men chanted danced rhythmic breathing and go on spirit walks have a "trip" SEE THE TRIP THROUGH gain enlightenment come back with wisdom and filled with something that energises evangelises and gives instruction how to live that they are compelled to "share".
   Where does the bible originate, its root some holy men fast chant rhythmic breathe come back with more or less the same deal as red Indians except tailored to their culture.
    Born again Christians have the chakra exp as described above but some don't see it through and misinterpret, but still basically the same message.
      Buddhism same deal,Hinduism same deal.Original Templars same deal had a leg up from suffi tradition,original freemasons same deal,Shamans,druids,Egyptians same deal.African tribes same deal etc ad nauseum.Every culture has had this,and tailored to suit.Millions upon millions of human beings have had this God realisation when it happens to them they know there is some higher power.It also teaches them usually using their own life experiences.I Could flood you with links for scientists,doctors.musicians,artists,white collar,blue collar,tramps,millionaires,etc who have seen this through.This needs to be understood by science for us to move forward.Be nice if we could stop personalising God in human terms.If you study all the religions it is obviously an energetic state that strips any human notions away as scarey as that sounds.Most say you judge yourself to the most and you can't hide from yourself so the vengeful god goes out the window.
   The "trip" exp, those that don't understand come back talking about fairies/leprechauns,space aliens (see S.GREER) angels, devils,Jesus whatever,which is what causes all the problems, it is usually (always) personal and pertaining to current circumstance.The trip is irrelevant the goods is what matters.Very rare anyone else see the phenomena of the trip but can't help but notice the dramatic change to whoever it happened to.Furthermore sometimes in fact most of the time when still evangalised if you are privelidged enough to witness it you see it feel it, truth resonates is a throw away remark but to witness it is mad.It shakes ppl moves ppl look at the oneness movement she is calling herself God has devoted sheep like followers scarey as hell to me because they charge,never will accept that one. Yoga is catching on like wildfire again because people are searching for this via witnessing the result, or word of mouth.It is never going to go away,even if we banned all faiths religions became atheists,it would still be happening to millions and always will,it happens to people who haven't read the bible since school days(or ever) and don't go near churches non of them mentally ill by the way although some do crack up if they don't understand what is happening.It was put to me we all should have this happen naturally like a second puberty try stopping puberty, as some go through this through no choice of their own,then have to figure it out and come through fine changed for the better.Have two friends who went through this,well more but these two Ive known for decades both independently went through this they did not have contact at time.One was tortured by filth and devils until the light/realisation was given, the other had a real gentle exp before the light/realisation moment.Both sane lovely lads never had mental issues both over it now and happier wholesome people,neither go to church but now believe the physical aspect of the christian message.The idea a year ago that i would post a "I believe in God" post on a forum..well i would of sneered like your doing but I have to go with the evidence,and direct exp to me is all i would ever believe and i have seen it.
Did you catch that a few years ago major atheist think groups accepted a higher power concept (cpl had the trip) but wouldn't call it God..god then, mind you I struggle with the word myself ex catholic thing. Look at son of God Mr Icke he had the trip messed him up but as it faded he understood it better,glad my mates never fell into that trap and saw it through.As for commandments I would think we all get on fine in our environments without giving them any thought,humans if happy are pretty sociable wherever you go.So they can ban religions and the word God for me, the world would have to find something else to hate with,and it would find something until we address what is human spirituality,because we can't just ignore it as it messes us up too much and we cant deny it because its there/here.YMMV regards sorry for wall of txt
Re D.ICKE they reckon (i dont know) that if he was an artistic type he would understand metaphor and what he was given was beat the desire/rep part of the brain not space lizards.8)

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 09:39 AM

What has confession got to do with atheism?

nothing - in the context I put it. Religions have their confessional dept. Atheists don't have that - they have to rely on their own morality to be the "good guys" - a harder task IMNSHO.

I prefer to highlight Colin Mylar - ex-editor of at least 3 newspapers (make that comics) and editor still of a national rag. He has been sacked twice by Rupert Merde Hock for printing excessively bad taste &/or lies and once by another comic. This is a guy who goes to church more than once mid week to gain some sort of wellbeing that Catholicism offers him. Like I say not all reprehensible people are atheists.

They permeate society. Think bankers.

Rules may be un-necessary for a lot or people, but it would be so nice everyone conducted themselves as if the rules were channeling them.

The meek shall inherit the earth - once we weed out the shits.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 07:14 AM

Now, being a skeptic does NOT mean just blindly doubting stuff I don't like, but rather just wanting to know the reasoning & evidence for things where it is not intuitively obvious what is true or false.

Well, I may have a mountain to climb here, but I happen to think that it is intuitively obvious that God does not exist. Big religion's job is, and always has been, to enforce, from birth, suspension of intuition allied to a fear of questioning. Speaking as a cradle (but not to grave) Catholic, I realised that, once I'd divested myself of the fear factor that had been so carefully inculcated into me by those priests and brothers who taught me, my intuitive sense was finally set free. It seemed immediately intuitively clear to me that there was no God. That isn't good enough to be a proper atheist, however. It merely gives you a lead to pursue. That involves looking for evidence, as we all know that things can occasionally be counter-intuitive, etc. As a scientifically-trained chap, I looked at all the supposed evidence for the existence of God and found every scrap of it wanting. Not only that, the very concept of God required the breaching of every law of nature, and that was a suspension of disbelief way too far for me.

Why a mountain to climb? Because it will be immediately thrown back at me that billions of believers can't all have perverted senses of intuition. But I think they have. See how easy it is to get kids to believe in things we grown-ups all know are stupid: goblins, fairies Santa, the Sandman and so on. As the kids get older we gradually excuse them from continuing to believe in these fantasies. Big religion is different. Its aim is to instil similar fantasies from birth - but then, instead of letting us let go, it strengthens its grip by multiplying the fear factor, inventing draconian codes of behaviour and compliance and adding in the threat of ostracism (or worse) should you demur. Big religion also promises us more than the earth, as long as we stay in line. Big religion also knows full well how to wrap us up in social cosiness (which, even I have to admit, isn't always malignant), which is very enticing. It's a skill we ragbag collections of atheists are singularly bad at, which is why believers can throw in our faces all the superb work done by many Christian charities, etc. We can't usually match that.

But these human constructs - fairy stories, fear factors, social cohesion, big promises, good works - don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to getting at the truth of God's existence or not. The only reason God hasn't become extinct is that human beings are not permitted to think of him as a hypothesis to be investigated. You can do that, but only when you're grown up and released from the fear factor, and that's too late, or never happens, for a lot of people. They remain deluded and, at least in one part of their brain, intellectually stunted. By not allowing people to let go of beliefs that are no more sound than those childhood fantasies, religion infantilises them.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 09 Feb 13 - 02:24 AM

Presumably the court may now rise. .

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:59 PM

Mr. Red's got it, in a nutshell. JtS, as usual, makes sense. Steve Shaw gets a pass because he plays the harmonica.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 08:42 PM

Jack give me a nice complement, so I thought I'd add a remark (or two... one remark does tend to lead to another)on how & why I said what I did.

I have always (well, since about 11-12 when I began to even consider having opinions beyond what I was 'told') been a skeptic. Now, being a skeptic does NOT mean just blindly doubting stuff I don't like, but rather just wanting to know the reasoning & evidence for things where it is not intuitively obvious what is true or false.
In thinking this way, one sees that sometimes honest, intelligent people do disagree about stuff. Not about color or music or what is the best pie, but serious stuff about morality, historical accuracy and, of course, religious concerns regarding our very nature & origins. It is easy to see WHY people might grow up with different beliefs, given history and cultural variation: but it is seldom easy to see how to resolve their differences. It has been all-too-common in history for some to demand that others accept one set of definitions about the 'best' set of beliefs.... and there are horrendous stories in history about the results of trying to instill belief by force.

Ok...enough background... many eyes are beginning to glaze over already, no doubt. So- what to do? You ALL see.. or have experience.. of how some decide how & what to believe and how to cope with it all.
I set out to find out how to even decide to think about deciding... the process commonly known as Philosophy. Of course, even there no consensus exists about the 'best' approach, but some ways of thinking have attained pretty good status... including one general approach best exemplified by Immanuel Kant in what is called The Categorical Imperative.
There's a lot of reading there, and it leads to a lot more reading if one wants to follow many lines of reasoning... but to put it as simply as possible, Kant thought that with enough care, we (humans) could develop an **objective** system for determining moral decisions without the artificial layers of some religious or cultural background. Of course, it is impossible to do ANY thinking about it all without some awareness OF history and the variety of approaches... but Kant claimed, with VERY complex language and reasoning, that sane, decent behavior could be worked out in a logically neutral manner. Nothing he said can be *directly* used to prevent crime, war & stupid behavior, of course, but a little delving into the basic approach can ..ummm... provide a way to read articles like the one linked in the original post to this thread!
(see?... I DID get around to something relevant... I hope.) And that is why I was concerned about the very use of the word 'commandments' and the linguistic linking of 'atheist' and 'non-believer'........

(all those dots indicate 'more'... but I'm sure that is plenty for now!~)

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:11 PM

The eleventh commandment should be: don't turn atheism into a religion.
Commandments were made for tablets and authoritarian theologians.

There is no atheist church that I would consider reputable.

Atheism just means a-theism, non-theism and that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: freda underhill
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:07 PM

Jack the Sailor, thanks for putting it so well.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 01:39 PM

Nobody gets absolution from confession. You tell an old bloke what you have got up to.If you tell him you have broken the law then he is a criminal for not reporting crime.

What has confession got to do with atheism? If I want someone to confide in and value their judgement I'll nominate them on merit not superstition.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 12:17 PM

The masochist said hit me and the sadist answered no.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 11:47 AM

surely the idea of atheism is that you don't need nor want a Creed or set of rules?

Hmmm - surely any decent person has their own methodology, "do as you would be done by" sort of whittles it down to one mantra. Rules exist live with it, people make their own, good or bad. Some people prefer guidance, some more than others.

The reason religion can produce good people is by any other name - a methodology.

The reason religion can produce evil is that assertive people can usurp the willingness of others to follow strong leadership. Creeping infallibility is not unknown in at least one religion.

The problem atheism throws up (in this context) is that individuals have to be responsible for for their own ultruism.

My faith is in human nature, that shitty people actually exist.
And not all of them are atheists. But atheist don't get absolution from confession.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 10:55 AM

Maybe I got that whole "Don't be a jerk" thing from Abraham Lincoln, who said, "Be excellent to each other....and....PARTY ON, DUDES!" (In Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure [1989])

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 10:43 AM

I have a lot of thoughts about this thread.


Alain de Botton's mission is to give non-believers the same access to what he believes are the benefits of religion and religious practitioners get from their practices. I haven't heard him separate people into the classes of Athiest and Non-Athiest. Have any of you?

So the entire premise of this long debate is a misinterpretation of Mr. de Botton's work by an Australian reporter?

A word on a list is NOT and commandment. Even when there are 10 words on the list. Mr. de Botton is saying that society and the individual are better off when this list is considered in daily life. In spite of what the Australian reporter believes, no one is being commanded to do anything. As usual among the atheists on this thread, Bill D totally gets it. For most of the rest of you, Mr. de Botton might suggest that you read the source material more carefully and to try to apply 2,3,5,6 & 7. Especially 7.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 09:37 AM

Einstein was dismissive of the term atheist. He said that logically, it means you believe in nothing, and that everything is chance.

He was wrong. He didn't realise that belief don't enter into it. His fiddle teacher thought he wasn't much good and I doubt I'd have trusted him with my roast chicken recipes. But when it came to science, well that's a different ball game innit.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Musket
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 08:25 AM

I know what I think, but if I laid them out, I might be accused of having a creed.

If you get by in life with comfort blanket such as an imaginary friend or fairies at the bottom of the garden, then fine. Just don't lobby to teach it to impressionable children in school.

This thread started by laying out, not unreasonably, a list of things that if taken into account would make you seem reasonable to reasonable people. The issue was when some people, some of which I am surprised to see advocate it, reckoned if you don't have a set of rules to live by, you must be a hedonist or even, as I read, an outlaw.

Sod that.

The need for rules is a need for religion. Seriously, you can get really pissed off when people say that without knowing the boundaries, anarchy will prevail or some other such tosh. The boundaries are altruism, and exhibited by communal animals, insects and even plants in the way Darwin suggested.

if you need to be submissive to others in order to be good, then fine. Just don't shout about it being a virtue. Dogs start fretting when they feel they are alpha male. Shout at them and don't let them have their own way, and they are far more relaxed as someone else has the responsibility. Perhaps an argument for religion being a hard wired pack animal instinct.

if it were though, how come the majority of people in The UK see through it and dismiss it as medieval superstition?

Einstein was dismissive of the term atheist. He said that logically, it means you believe in nothing, and that everything is chance. He said that isn't the answer, as every day, gravity works as measured. I think about that when I am referred to as an atheist, and it makes me uncomfortable. But nothing like as uncomfortable as when the god botherers try filling the gap for me..

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 08:08 AM

Who's "advocating"? You think what you bloody want. I just tell you what I think. You wish to continue with your life's delusion, feel free. In fact, I advocate it. And perhaps you could apprise us of what "material" has to do with this.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Feb 13 - 07:36 AM

some people can be so touchy.how about the word "materialist" ie advocating that there are no deities or spiritual entities.
me- i promise not to be offended if i am called a "non materialist" or "non atheist"
have a nice day.pete.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Janie
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 11:03 PM

"Don't be a jerk." Love it.

I really don't care what motivates a person to try to "not be a jerk." Frame it in terms of moral imperative or simple choice. Doesn't matter. What matters is a critical mass of people who try, not always successfully, to "not be jerks." As long as there are enough people who mostly try to not be jerks, we will likely get by.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 10:27 PM

This is the same stupid discussion that you always have. My question, why do you even bother?

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Musket
Date: 07 Feb 13 - 04:05 AM

ah but Steve, my fantasy was a loaded point.

Purposely put on the basis that my neighbours both sides don't have tits, or at least not in the way my post put it. One side is a holiday let (mine to be precise and I don't covet my own tits) and the other an old bloke whose purpose in life is walking his dog and occasionally mine, bless him.

Yet many people bring their fantasy into the debate, ie God. Just thought I'd introduce another fantasy, one that man has held true throughout time, just like theirs. A fascination with tits.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 11:27 PM

If I ask for someone's help, I expect them to help me because I asked not because they are a Christian. If they only help me because of the latter reason then it is self-serving. At the root of all religious altruism, that's what what you will find--people in it for themselves for one reason: they think by doing "the lord's work" they are going to go to heaven. So they are doing this stuff for themselves and nothing else.

Moreover, you know perfectly well that it is true or you wouldn't be so pissed off at my bringing it up (talk about needing to take en edge off some attitude I think I just took some off yours).

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 11:24 PM

I guess "commandments" and "athiests" are loaded words, to me the heading was tongue in cheek but has generated a lot of discussion about related concepts.

unwanted advice can be a real pain in the neck and sorry to those who took this thread as that.

great quote from Ambassador Delenn, Babylon 5 (have not seen this in Australia),and thanks for the many thoughtful posts.

re "the molecules of your body are the same molecules that make this station and the nebula outside" - I have been doing artwork on this theme for a few years - if you'd like to see something, pm me your email address and I'll send you a couple of examples.

Look forward to reading more of the infinite dancing molecules that make up the thoughts in mudcatter minds

freda

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: gnu
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 10:06 PM

Futwick... I assume you need at least twenty more years under your belt to take the edge off yer attitude. I would ask you to Google mothert (that's her rap rep in the hood) fer a start but I don't think you'd get that ref bro. Chill and read a book eh? And pray you don't end up on the doorstep of Nazareth House lookin fer food and shelter with that attitude. I'd rather see my donations used in better ways than helpin you out of a bind. Of course, if you did need my help, I would help even tho all indications are you wouldn't do the same for me.

God bless. (Read... fuck off.)

Yet again... I gotta reduce my BP... gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:48 PM

Well I'm hanging on to the point about belief stunting the intellect. No matter how Spock-like you are in other areas of thinking, if you believe in God you have forced a small piece of your mind to suspend all belief in the laws of nature and forced it to "explain" complicated things (the universe, all life on Earth, etc.) by interpolating something infinitely more complicated, that defies all known laws, that has no beginning or end and for which we have no evidence (God). What a cop-out. You lie down in the face of tradition, uncorroborated ancient texts, witness and edicts from holy men. You suspend all critical analysis in that area of thought. If that isn't intellectual stunting, well I don't know what is.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: gnu
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:37 PM

Well said Steve... right up to "... belief in God stunts the intellect...". I believe in God. Just not in the God you think I believe in, and my God is the same God that most Cat'lics believe in (just my opinion). Those that I know anyway, and I dare to extrapolate. I figure I can extrapolate even further... to include you according to your beliefs as posted herein (you believe in you). I don't think we are too far apart.

In any case, it's all a cluster fuck. I will always be a TRUE Cat'lic but I will always tithe to the Church of Saint Jeri.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:31 PM

Whether or not you happen to think that religion has done more good/less good/a bit of good/a bit of harm/much harm is beside the point in a way. The bottom line, really, is whether God exists. I'm not going to argue about whether religion has given people their moral code or innate goodness. For all I know, it might have. But I also know that we heathens have just as many damn good people in our ranks. But does God exist? If he doesn't, then all these goodly religious people had better work out whether they couldn't be just as good without him. I think they could, personally. Also, if he doesn't, billions of people, by subscribing to him, have given up a huge chunk of their free thinking and intellectual prowess, and that's serious. Ironically, God would hate that.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:16 PM

All the good religion has done? Such as what? Charities? You can do charity all you want without a religion. Beyond that, I am frankly stumped as to what this "good" is that religion has done.

Compare that to the bad and there is no comparison. Religion has done questionable good that could have easily been done without a religious conviction and it has done a far more bad that cannot have been done without a religious conviction.

Religion is useless. What is needed is philosophy. When someone says, "I don't covet my neighbors tits" he has no understanding of how his mind works. You can't control what you covet and what you don't. People think they control their own thoughts, they do not. IF you control your own thoughts then stop thinking right now and make your mind a total blank. You can't. Why? Because you can't control your thoughts. So ask yourself, if you don't control your own thoughts then what does? Where do those thoughts originate?

As for "I choose to do good and bad" that's not really true either. You choose to do what YOU BELIEVE is good or bad. In fact, the vast majority of people who do bad believed they were doing something good or at least were not doing anything with the idea of doing bad in mind. But regardless, you can't do good or bad, you can only do what you believe is such and you will be judged by others according to what they believe is good or bad. When you are all in concordance on the matter then things will be fine. When you are not, things will not be so fine.

For instance, a Kuwaiti man was recently sentenced to prison. For what? He went on Twitter and spoke ill of Kuwait's emir whom the Kuwaiti govt hold is inviolable. Did he do wrong in your belief? I'll bet not. But ask a Kuwaiti and you'll get a very different answer.

As for fearing yourself, why should you do that except that you do not understand how your mind works? If you understand it, what is there to fear?

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 09:07 PM



(Whilst denying the higher intelligence bit out of sheer humility...) Yes, we do grasp it. Because we say that God almost certainly doesn't exist, we don't go on to say that everything that has emanated from the God notion is evil. There are great cathedrals, great art, great music and a good deal of beneficial social bonding that has come out of religion. Equally, there is just as much secular art, architecture, music and social life that has had nothing to do with religion. Religion, I have to admit, is a foundation for community spirit in many societies. Like a sort of social glue. We heathens tend to be individualistic. We lack those organisations and traditions that can seem to give religion an edge in society. But that is not to say that only religion can produce those goodies. We atheists just have to try harder, that's all. There's nothing wrong with our moral codes, common decency and sense of social understanding. We're just not as good at getting our act together, that's all. We're too ruggedly-individualistic. Not joiners, sort of thing. But we're still good eggs.

As for the bad stuff, you won't catch me rattling on about that. Most of the "bad stuff done in the name of religion" was not done in the name of religion at all, but in the name of imperialism/stealing someone else's stuff. I do think that religion is pretty rotten in general and that belief in God stunts the intellect, and I could argue the fat all night about that, but that's a different issue.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:55 PM

Gnu, I understood that. Scary.

I don't think not believing and deities means I have to be free from wonder or not be spiritual in other ways. I love this quote from Babylon 5 (one of the best science fiction shows EVER), and think it makes perfect sense, although open to interpretation (which is good):

"The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make this station and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are star-stuff. We are the Universe, made manifest, trying to figure itself out. And, as we have both learned, sometimes the Universe needs a change of perspective."
--Ambassador Delenn, Babylon 5

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: gnu
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 08:45 PM

Cool posts! After reading them, my take is two things.

Jeri summed one up - "don't be a jerk". It really is that simple, although it really is complex fer the stunned as me arse and there seems to be a lot of them

The second is troubling for me. Atheists who deem themselves of higher "intelligence" seem not to grasp the reasons for religion and the good it has done over untold years (don't bother to post about the bad stuff... that just shows you don't acknowledge the good stuff... assuming, of course, that you have any knowledge of the role religion played in the development of where we are today).

Believe in a higher power than me? No. I believe in what my religion actually says (which many don't understand, especially atheists) and what I believe my religion says is... I... me and only me... am God to me. God is within me. I choose to do right or wrong. No one else makes that choice. I have to answer to me and to all others. If I am a "God fearing man", I fear ME and MY choices. If I pledge fellowship within a religion I am not pledging servitude to a "ghost". I am pledging allegiance to me and my fellows. I am about as atheist as one can get and still believe that "God" exists... because I am he within the context of what I believe my religion truly teaches - the same as the religion of Jeri... "Don't be a jerk."

Offer void for door to door salesmen.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 06:16 PM

It's fine to covet your neighbour's tits as long as you keep your bloody coveting to yourself. Neither my neighbour, her tits, nor my neighbour's hubby have ever suffered from my coveting of her titties, as I've always kept it to meself.

"Irreligious" is yet another of those words that automatically casts the person so described in the negative in relation to deluded believers. Were it not for misguided people inventing and/or following religion, you would never need to apply that term to yourself. By inventing themselves they invented the reluctant you as well. Don't let 'em get away with it by making up words for you!

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 03:12 PM

If stamp collectors had a term for non stamp collectors I am sure the term would be derogatory or condescending.

Hence I suspect that differing terms for rational people such as atheist or agnostic are not exactly positive words when used by superstitious people.

Me? I call myself neither. I am irreligious. With all due respect to stamp collectors they don't affect me and I don't affect them. But if they did try to influence law to their benefit and my detriment I would reserve the right to treat them with disdain.

Im thinking Sundays opening hours and gay /women /peoplr who don't read from the same book of fairy stories as them equality here but I could be tedious and extend the list...

I also note that altruism has a Darwinian angle to it. So what price commandments or other obvious nonsense. I don't kill or covet my neighbours tits for the simple reason it is wrong. I don't need buggering priests to remind me. (Mind you, if she's selling those puppies I'll have the one with the pink nose. Did I type that out loud?)

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 01:40 PM

Not so, Don. If you consider what I said, there is only one further step beyond my position, which would be to declare that there is definitely no God. You won't even get Richard Dawkins to say that. He places himself on his own 7-point scale of certainty about the non-existence of God at 6.9. The problem is that neither word, atheist nor agnostic, is very useful. Fence-sitting "agnosticism", the usual kind, contains a spectrum within itself: it can cover the truly uncertain (a rare breed, I think, as the genuine article), the spineless who fear the consequences of invoking the wrath of a God they don't even know for sure exists, insurance-seekers and the don't-give-a-shits. The kind of "agnosticism" you accuse me of is a very different beast to all of those. My dismissal of God is based purely on my consideration of the evidence (I threw "faith" out of the window decades ago). I have a bust of Beethoven next to me on my computer desk. I'm now going to reach out and pat Ludwig on the head. In the split second it takes my hand to reach him, there's chance he'll vanish in a puff of busted atoms (I understand that quantum theory allows for the possibility of this). The chances of it happening are hundreds of trillions to one against. That allows to me live my life assuming it won't happen. It does not allow me to say that it will definitely not happen. It allows you to say to me that I don't know that it won't happen, but it's a hell of a stretch to then accuse me of being "agnostic" about it. See above on lack of usefulness of the word. That's about where I am with God. What I'm saying is that you seem to be telling me that the only true atheists are those who, mistakenly, declare that there is certainly no God. If the word "atheist" is to be of any use at all (and I don't like it much at all myself), then you have to apply it to people like me. Otherwise, let's ditch it. It's a bastard word in any case, defined only by the existence of the delusional believers (if no-one had ever come up with the God notion, there would be neither believers nor atheists). Paradoxically, applying the word "atheist" to myself immediately puts me into believer territory, as would the term "non-believer". Those words beginning with "a-" or "non-" define me in terms of God. Seems rather unfair to me.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 12:56 PM

""Well I'm an atheist and I see no reason to not believe in a deity. It is far more accurate to say that I don't know whether there's a deity or not. I can hardly leave it at that, though, because that sounds like I'm undecided in an on-the-fence way. Au contraire. I've decided that the possibility of the existence of a deity is so infinitesimally small that I can ignore it for the purpose of how I choose to live my life.
Well I'm an atheist and I see no reason to not believe in a deity. It is far more accurate to say that I don't know whether there's a deity or not. I can hardly leave it at that, though, because that sounds like I'm undecided in an on-the-fence way. Au contraire. I've decided that the possibility of the existence of a deity is so infinitesimally small that I can ignore it for the purpose of how I choose to live my life. I've come to that conclusion by considering evidence. There's a chance I could be wrong. I'm an atheist because I see that chance as being about as likely as the tenth planet of Proxima Centauri being made of green cheese. It's an assertion that cannot be disproven yet for which there is no evidence.""

Surely Steve, that is the description, in fact the definition of an agnostic, not an atheist.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Feb 13 - 12:35 PM

That's right, Donuel. Having or not having empathy for others is the key issue. Most religions devote a great deal of concern to the issue of empathy, but that doesn't mean that all members of those religions get the message. Some of them don't. Most philosophies pay a good deal of attention to the issue of empathy as well...or at least one would hope they would! But that doesn't mean that adherents to those philosophies will necessarily display empathy.

"Commandments" was the word that arose out of the ancient Hebrew culture from which came the books of the Old Testament. That was a society full of commands that were coming down from various patriarchal authority figures, so it's not surprising they would have used the term "commandments" for a set of religious instructions said to be emanating from God. They saw God as they saw their own patriarchs...a being invested with great power and authority, a being easily moved to anger, etc...

The later developments of Christianity tended to move more in the direction of a God of love...and love is based upon empathy.

We are also said to have been given free will.

If we have been given free will, then no one can command us!

Or if they do, then we can choose to disobey the command. And we sometimes do disobey commands, no matter who they are coming from, whether it be our parents, our teachers, the local government, the police, the national government, the club president....or God (presuming we can entertain that concept).

So...the ancient Hebrews called those statements "Commandments", because that fit their mindset at the time, and that seems to offend some people.

Okay, they might just as well have called those statements "suggestions" or "guidelines" or "good advice", which is exactly what they are, and what the stuff in the article is. The fact that they chose to call them "commandments" has little to do with the statements themselves, and a great deal to do with the nature of that ancient patriarchal, very authoritative society.

There's no point in people getting upset now over an expression of language that came out of an ancient tribal society, when the basic message contained in the "commandments" is a perfectly understandable set of instructions on how NOT to be an antisocial and destructive asshole in the normal terms of the society of that time.

And that's what the set of "commandments for atheists" is in the linked article as well. It's simply a group of suggestions on how not to be an antisocial jerk. The only reason the article even called it "commandments" at all was to symbolically link it to the Christian religious commandments which we already know about, thereby making a premise for having such an article in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 11:02 PM

There are religious people who preach about empathy but do not have any developed right brain functionality of empathy.

An example of a religious person with no empathy at all would be a priest who rapes little children. How could anyone with true empathy commit such a horrific act?

There are two other possibilities which may warp priests into monsters and that would be those who had also been abused as a child or, number 2, low empathetic natural homosexuals who were twisted into an obscenity by the conflicting religious decree of celibacy.


On the other side of the coin there may be atheist people who teach ethics but may never employ ethics as a guiding priciple in their own lives.
A better example may be a Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld who feel very little destorying countless lives not because of any religion or lack of it but due to a principle they believe in that supercedes ethics or morality, patriotism that pays hard cash.

Commandments may be well intentioned but the spectrum of inate human talents and abilities and disabilities differ enough to make certain people immune from good advice to the core of their being, with or without religion. For most of use endowed with Empathy, empathy is enough for the basic morality of society, The higher teachings still require education be it a secular golden rule or religious law.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 10:10 PM

Along LH lines I believe you can not teach some people empathy no matter how much religion you put in their heads and hearts. It may help many in the spectrum of social psychopathy but there is nothing that can replace true empathy which is a matter of nature, not religion nor is it an emergent product of athieism.

Interact in a large group and it will be hard to dectect who is religious and who are athiests but it is damn easy to spot people who are unempathetic or those who have no empathy at all.
If this experience is not true for you, you may be the one lacking empathy.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 09:56 PM

'What is moral or ethical is a chosen course not a commanded one' but it is based more upon one's enviorment.

A boy raised in a back water babtist town among violent craven people who only profess pure religiosity, may not have the morality of a boy raised by two ethical atheist educators in NY.

The thing is little kids can't chose their enviorment.

I certainly don't view athiests as people with no cars in a nation of car drivers. That sounds self serving for the lucky religionists who are the only ones priviledged, trusted and allowed to drive.

But its fine to root for your home team if you want. Just don't be an ass hole about it.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 08:43 PM

Good stuff, Jeri.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Jeri
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 06:45 PM

I think the list of commandments makes sense for everyone, but I wouldn't think most atheists need someone they don't know telling them how to not act like an asshole. I also believe people who are already assholes won't pay any attention to commandments.

In short, it's as if all those "10 commandments for atheists" boil down to "don't be a jerk". If people don't know how to follow THAT once they reach adulthood, they'll likely suffer somewhat for it.

To treat atheism as a separate system of beliefs is bullshit. It's like asking someone what sort of car they like, and then telling the ones who don't actually drive a car that their car type is a "non car". You can't make what isn't into a different type of "is".

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 06:22 PM

The polite answer is that an Atheist doesn't believe in a Deity...

Well I'm an atheist and I see no reason to not believe in a deity. It is far more accurate to say that I don't know whether there's a deity or not. I can hardly leave it at that, though, because that sounds like I'm undecided in an on-the-fence way. Au contraire. I've decided that the possibility of the existence of a deity is so infinitesimally small that I can ignore it for the purpose of how I choose to live my life. I've come to that conclusion by considering evidence. There's a chance I could be wrong. I'm an atheist because I see that chance as being about as likely as the tenth planet of Proxima Centauri being made of green cheese. It's an assertion that cannot be disproven yet for which there is no evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: The 10 Commandments for atheists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Feb 13 - 05:33 PM

There is a vital need for having a coherent ethical philosophy of some sort to guide your conduct if you plan on living life as a thinking human being who is capable of examining and assessing his own actions honestly, and not just in the light of his own immediate gain, but with regard to the general welfare of all the other lives around him, all of which are valuable, just like his.

And it was a concern about that which produced the list...and which produces most serious religious inquiry and most serious philosophical inquiry as well, out of which has arisen what we term "civilization" (as opposed to the Law of the Jungle).

If you don't give a shit about anyone but yourself, on the other hand, then such a list of ethical considerations is of no use to you at all...nor are any social "rules", ethics, or civil laws. And neither are you of any use to anyone at all...because you are, in effect, an outlaw.