Dorner Manhunt in California

Subject: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Songwronger
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 11:10 PM

Surely you've all been following this. There are a million stories about it online.

Ex-cop says he was wrongfully terminated, he's gone on a spree. Killed and wounded three, I think, and now he can't be located. Cops in California are going nuts. In their frenzy they're shooting citizens. Police swarm and drones are sent out to hunt. A circus.

What I find most notable in this is that one man with a gun can put all of the police in southern California into a communal brain freeze. So, how are the police going to enforce the new gun-grabbing laws against millions if they can't disarm one man?

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Songwronger
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 11:11 PM

Oops. Should've put this in BS.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Feb 13 - 11:42 PM

Million dollar reward!

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 02:02 AM

Songwringer, you are comparing two vastly different things.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:40 AM

"the new gun-grabbing laws"

What new gun-grabbing laws?

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 03:52 AM

Hmm, let's see - Wrong un's thinking - nutter with gun goes on killing spree - remedy, no restrictions on guns. Sorry Wrong un I think you got that backwards.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Feb 13 - 04:13 AM

Gosh..Ya' think he would have passed a background check??....So much for thinking the new gun proposals would have prevented this!!! ..and he was even an Obama supporter!...Now they're 're-looking into his claims'..I wondered if that 'media item' was reported for his 'attention', to alleviate his motives hoping he might get 'sloppy'...BUT..bottom line, he did some killing, the circumstances in which he 'feels justified' really won't matter...but it plays well to some folks!

GfS

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 01:47 AM

What??..No 'so-called liberal' response??
Maybe because it's all a bunch of hooey!...another freedom limiting nonsense...but as long as the 'libs' can 'remedy' the situation with another bunch of 'laws' and propaganda...they'll utilize another 'good crisis' and 'not let it go to waste'!----Rahm Emanuel's wonderful advice for mass manipulation!!

GfS

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Mysha
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 05:12 AM

Hi,

"Surely you've all been following this."

No. Must be something local.


The rest of the question appears to be a personal interpretation of what may have happened. Without the facts, there doesn't seem to be anything to discuss.

Bye,
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:51 AM

Bloody hell, we've even heard about it here in the Backwoods - it's all over the TV in the UK (Sky, BBC, Commercial channels)!

It's hilarious! A huge army of law enforcement officers, armed to the teeth, ready willing and able to loose off rounds at the slightest hint of an excuse, being outwitted by a lone loony gunman.

If ever there was a spectacle which demonstrates the knuckle-dragging stupidity of the meat-head "we need more guns to protect ourselves from the bad-guy mad dog killers" argument, this is it.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 09:47 AM

With all due respect, there's really nothing funny about this. The ex-cop at the center of this has already killed three -- one cop, the daughter of another, and the daughter's fiancee. And he has published a manifesto in which he threatens to kill 50, and states that he doesn't expect to survive. Whatever you think of gun control laws, this is a serious threat to large numbers of innocent people, made by someone who has already demonstrated that he has the motivation and means to make good on his threats. He has covered a lot of ground (literally), so the search is a large one. And until he's been caught or killed, a lot of people are in grave danger. Think of how you would feel if you were a potential target.

Hilarious, Backwoodsman? You have a strange sense of humor.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Amos
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 10:24 AM

He was evidently acceptable to the LAPD when he signed up.

SO he probably would have passed a background check, yes.

THis has nothing to do with the proposed gun laws, AFAIK, except to an overdriven irrationality.


A

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 11:55 AM

Well, Whistle Stop, as you clearly don't understand irony, I'll explain.

Of course there's nothing funny in this situation. In saying its hilarious, I was responding to earlier anti-gun-law posts by using humour to make a serious point, the point being that, despite what the small-dick bullet-heads of the NRA and their brainwashed followers would have everyone believe, more and more guns will solve nothing, A huge armoury isn't helping the police in this incident and, in fact, the police themselves seem to be at least as dangerous as the guy they're trying to deal with....shooting at people (including women and children) in 'mistaken identity' incidents - scroll down to the picture of the burned-out pickup and read on.... Sky News

Maybe they should bring in a couple of old retired ex-cops with their handguns hidden under their coats to sort that MoFo out. (And if you haven't read the recent gun control threads which followed the school shooting, you won't get the irony in that either).

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Rumncoke
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 12:27 PM

At least there can't be any argument about the decision to sack him - but it is reported that the police force accepted and trained him after the military had done the same.

The willingness to shoot at fellow Human beings seems to be a requirement for US citisenship.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: pdq
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 12:45 PM

Here is a picture of Dormer's victims...

                                                                                                   these two are dead

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 12:47 PM

In this economy I don't think we can under estimate how devastating it can be to lose a job for the wrong reason, i.e. whistle blowing... It means that you are virtually black-balled and ostracized... Add that to someone who may have some mental issues and it's like putting heat under a pressure cooker...

This isn't about gun control here... This is about how we treat one another... I'm not condoning what this guy has done but doubt seriously if we would be talking about this if he hadn't been fired for doing what he thought was the correct thing to do as a good cop...

B~

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 01:01 PM

Backwoodsman, I agree with your opinion on the NRA, and more generally on the bizarre gun fetish that so many of my countrymen exhibit. But a prerequisite to using humor to illustrate a point is that you need to have something humorous to say. Moreover, while it may be fun to laugh at the LAPD (from the safety of your keyboard) for the errors they made in a high-stress situation, I assure you that this is deadly serious. I think your attempts at humor were misplaced.

I've read a few threads about gun issues, but in all honesty they seem to generate more heat than light, so I'm usually more inclined to pass them by. Yeah, I know that people, on Mudcat and elsewhere, are suggesting having armed guards at our elementary schools, and that those suggestions are most likely to come from gun owners who oppose reasonable restrictions on their ability to own and carry as many guns, of whatever type, as they wish. I consider that viewpoint misguided and selfish. So I get the attempts and irony and humor, but I still think your comments were in poor taste, and unnecessarily belittled people who are trying to protect the public even while they themselves are under attack.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 01:21 PM

Then you're still missing my point. Which is that guns aren't the answer, they're the problem. If Dormer, and others like him, didn't have easy access to firearms, they couldn't shoot people, and if your seemingly incompetent police didn't have guns, they couldn't shoot at perfectly innocent people in the kind of incidents I linked to.

Get rid of the guns, and the problem will go away. The UK is the proof - hardly anyone has access to firearms, the police don't carry firearms, and we have fewer shootings in a year than the US has in one day.

Don't say it can't be done. Anything is possible, it just takes courage and the will to make it happen. You got men to the moon FFS, what happened to your courage and will in the years since 1969?

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 02:45 PM

Yes, guns are very much part of the problem... The CDC was in the midst of collecting data a few years back that was pointing to some serious statistics pointing to just how much more ***un*** safe you are if there is a gun in your house... I mean, the number that was leaked was 22 times more apt to be shot if there is one in the home...

The NRA got wind of it and had their congressional hench-men stop the study by threatening to take away funding for the CDC...

But this thread ain't about that...

B~

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: bobad
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 04:57 PM

They have him cornered in a remote area of the San Bernardino National Forest: Live feed

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 05:30 PM

"But this thread ain't about that..."

Correct, Bobert - sorry for the thread-drift, but it makes my blood boil to see the same old shit happening over and over, while the same lame-brain drivel excuses are trotted out by the gun-nuts.

I'll leave, and let the thread get back on track......let's hope for a good outcome, and soon.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:18 PM

A report about a half hour ago said that "someone who looked like Dormer" had stolen a vehicle.

The vehicle was spotted, and the driver jumped out and ran into the woods, then barricaded himself in a cabin.

At that time, police said they were not sure it was Dormer.

An update within the last few minutes says that it is Dormer. He is still in the cabin.

John

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 06:20 PM

Who moved the m on my keyboard over where the n used to be?

&^*%$(#!

John

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Feb 13 - 11:29 PM

Assuming the man inside the cabin was indeed Dorner, the chances are not good that he is still alive. The last I saw, flames were rising high above the cabin.

This was after he shot two more officers, one of whom has died.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Songwronger
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 01:13 AM

Could be that the man who was seen running into the cabin was just some hefty black man who knows the cops will shoot him if given half a chance. The cops aren't handling themselves too well in this crisis. They've already shot innocents they thought were Dorner. One was a 71 year old woman. So you KNOW that big black men in California are running for their lives right now.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: sciencegeek
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:16 AM

"Could be that the man who was seen running into the cabin was just some hefty black man who knows the cops will shoot him if given half a chance."

And who just happened to be heavily armed and carrying enough ammo to engage in a prolonged shoot out with police. Your theory is pretty thin there, bucko.

The fact remains... 5 people are dead for no good reason, other than an unstable man thought that death and destruction was the way to "restore his good name". A name I doubt his two children will feel much pride in.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 04:10 AM

The last report seen was that the cabin was pretty well burned. They think he's still in it but were waiting for the ashes to cool before trying to start digging for a body.

Since an earlier report was that he may have been seen on a security cam buying scuba gear, he might have gone out through a cellar/tunnel they don't know about.

Scuba air works pretty well for smoke protection, or for tear gas, so he wouldn't have had to plan on underwater maneuvering, although scuba equipment doesn't take flame heat too well. (The tear gas was the first thing I thought of when they reported he might have bought some air.)

John

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: sciencegeek
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 06:38 AM

They've recovered human remains from the cabin and can test them to confirm the identity.

Which will answer that one question, but still leaves much unexplained. Starting with why Dorner felt the need to gun down two innocent young people who never did anything to him.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: kendall
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 07:19 AM

A combination of hate and evil.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 08:14 AM

Backwoodsman, I don't really want to continue the debate, but I did get what you were saying, and I largely agree. But when you smugly disparage the people who were trying, at great personal risk, to find and stop this madman, your arguments lose traction with me. If you think it's easy to find one person in a country of 350 million, I'd encourage you to get into law enforcement, as your skills are badly needed. But if you are confident that you can stop a man with a gun without carrying one yourself... well, maybe you had better stay out of law enforcement, as it's likely to be detrimental to your health.

I'm all for working towards a gun-free society, and taking much more aggressive steps in that direction than we have so far. I deplore the NRA and the large number of gun enthusiasts in the US who seem to feel that preserving their hobby is more important than protecting the public. But until we're there -- and we're a long way from being there right now -- we still need good guys with guns to stop the bad guys with guns. And they deserve our support and thanks, rather than our ridicule.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 03:59 PM

In the interest of some fairness and perspective... in addition to a statewide manhunt - which is a heavy draw on manpower, the police were also providing police protection for 50 named individuals that Dorner had threatened to kill. The mistaken shootings were due to over reacting to a perceived threat that turned out not to be real... In a war zone this is known as "friendly fire"... it is a reality that goes with having armed people in dangerous positions.

I question how many of us - who are in our safe little areas- would do a better job? Those cops made bad mistakes, but understandable ones... they, as well as those they were protecting, were all targets of this deranged man who had already killed three and was gunning for more. This is what our troops are dealing with every day that they are deployed in the war zones, but the average cop is not trained for this kind of situation. I suspect that the guys who screwed up are more used to handling tickets than what they were assigned to do.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: number 6
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 05:17 PM

Wow ... with all the media coverage and the large audience that is glued to their favourite news channel and news websites ... this is number$$ baby, big number$$ ... and it will be a sure hit at the box office when the whole damned thing comes out as movie.

biLL

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Songwronger
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 10:25 PM

Well they got their man. Maybe. He left his wallet in San Ysidro, and then they found his wallet miraculously unburned in the cabin. And we all got our example of No Due Process in the ObamaNation.

But the most important thing here is that the LA police got their vengeance. The local authorities flew the LAPD in so they could do the kill. What a great example of cross-jurisdictional cooperation. LAPD is on audio talking about burning the 'motherfucker.' What heroes. They cancelled motorcycle patrols for a week because they might get shot at. No single-officer patrols because there was a 'bad man' out there. Response times to citizens' calls lagged because there was a man with a gun out there. Oh, my.

Then they torched the cabin they thought he was in a half hour before Obama went on TV to do his pathological lying thing. Can't have Dorner upstaging that narcissist. If this had gone on any longer they were going to launch drones to hunt for him. Then we would have gotten our lesson in how it's okay to hunt bad guys on American soil with drones, just like we do in Africa and the Middle East. Too bad Obama didn't have to decide whether to bust a drone on his ass. I bet he was sweating that one. The big chees committing VERY public black on black violence--can't have that. Wouldn't be surprised if 'burn the motherfucker' was the order straight from the top.

Hate to go on so, but this was a public relations nightmare for LA, California and Washington. They want us to turn in our guns, then one of their own (a cop) goes rogue. Senator Feinstein of California (gun grabber) is protected by an armed goon squad, so she's not in any danger, but what about everyone else? Didn't Dorner take a couple hostage before retreating to the cabin where he was torched? His face was displayed everywhere, people were on alert, so I wonder if that couple was disarmed according to California law? I would have emptied a clip into him the moment I saw him on my property.

You Democrats pushing for disarmament are going to be a while wiping this mess off your shoes. Yeah, let's all turn in our guns and let the LAPD take care of us. Maybe they'll burn our house tonight because we look like someone they don't like.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,Rich Lew
Date: 13 Feb 13 - 11:09 PM

Which anti-psychotic meds are you on, Songwronger? I don't think they work.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Songwronger
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 12:12 AM

Well, I just hope California has the good sense now to refute their insane gun laws. Bad guys have guns, and good guys issue bounties on people they don't like and then burn them to death. You kinda need to be armed in a climate like that, don't you think?

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 03:56 AM

Early for cuckoos, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 08:33 AM

Sounded like a C J Box novel. Though if it were, the perp would have stashed another body in the fire & escaped to kill again, only to be tracked down by Joe Pike the trusty Game Warden.

RtS

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 12:07 PM

Being armed is only good if you want to shoot somebody. It doesn't keep someone from shooting you, in fact, it can actually cause someone to shoot you.

And, of course, a gun provides no protection whatsoever when you're shot. You bleed and die, just as if you had no gun at all.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 12:24 PM

The average ego (being the supposed center of the world) always assumes that it's the other person who will get shot, and also assumes that the other person deserves to get shot. On this foolish premise rests the entire problem of human violence. A person with more wisdom and less ego would care about the other person just as they do about themselves, and wouldn't want them to get shot, if it could possibly be avoided. A failure in empathy is in many ways equivalent to a failure in the power of one's own imagination to reach beyond a very narrow set of strictly personal fears, concerns, and desires.

You either care for others, and take care on their behalf...or you don't. If you're all ego then you don't give a damn about others, you're also very afraid, and that makes you dangerous. With or without a gun. With a gun, of course, it makes you a good deal more dangerous. And if you also had an army at your command, you'd be even more dangerous... And so it goes.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 09:56 PM

"good guys issue bounties on people they don't like and then burn them to death."

"I would have emptied a clip into him the moment I saw him on my property."

So, the moment you saw him on your property, you would would have been capable of an absolutely certain identification?

What are the dimensions of your property? (I suspect that if your property is more than a very few yards in any direction, you will not answer that question, unless you are too stone stupid to understand the implications)

In reality, how much different is that from saying, "If I had seen a black male who looked to me to be of the right size and age range, I would have killed him instantly."

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 14 Feb 13 - 10:15 PM

I think that you're right. I grew up in a rough neighborhood. A lot of the guys were the "born to lose" types, didn't fit in, didn't want to fit in, and hated the world. They were scared of the things they didn't understand(shich was nearly everything) and didn't even realize it. They were dangerous, but really sad, too. And most of them dead before 40...and so it goes...

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 03:52 AM

This started because he dared to speak out about brutal behaviour within the LAPD.

HAD the LAPD taken his complaint seriously, then this situation would never have arisen. But the police protect the police and there are some VERY BRUTAL and RACIST Bastards out there who just happen to be wearing Police Officer's uniforms..

And so the good ol' FBI COINTELPRO Tactics were brought down upon Christopher to the point where most people just simply go along with what they're being told..

I do not condone him taking the lives of others, but I see a man who was at the end of his tether because he had been boxed into a very tight corner by some very dubious folks, probably with Sociopathic backgrounds who have no guilt whatsoever what they do whilst in uniform or without it, for they truly believe they have the RIGHT to kick innocent people, beat them up, wrongfully arrest them, pepper spray them...the list is endless....

The fact that Christopher refused to let go of this case, refused to back down and just disappear from their horizon must have been driving them nuts for a very long time..

So I doubt he was the 'cold-blooded nutcase' that some of you portray him as, but rather a man who had gone to war believing he was doing it for the good of his country, who then joined the police force, for the good of his country, and found himself amongst 'an enemy' he had never dreamt of being IN his own country, let alone amongst the police force he had joined in good faith to help people.

Maybe, just maybe, Christopher Dorner was THE MOST HONEST COP within the LAPD............

In Christopher's own words......

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 09:17 AM

"Maybe, just maybe, Christopher Dorner was THE MOST HONEST COP within the LAPD............"

a very BIG assumption made for someone who researched his first victims... two innocent people who had absolutely nothing to do with his case. A far better assumption is that Dorner was a disturbed individual with a very distorted perception of reality.

The more I read about him the more he resembles someone I know.. once a dear friend... whose mental disintegration cause him to live in a world reality that is far different from what I and others know to be what actually happened. Sadly, he believes that anyone who does not absolutely agree with him is his enemy... and he has destroyed most of his friendships because of his actions to try and destroy the "lives" of others with his actions. He lives in a "no fault world"... nothing is HIS fault... it is ALWAYS the fault of others.

Until you have to personnally deal with this kind of individual, it is hard to believe that someone can become so disturbed and distructive.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 11:03 AM

and when we have such points of view that try to make a hero of a serial killer, my first gut reaction is "please don't tell me that you have a small arsenal of weapons at the ready"...

Liz should reflect on the "what if the young couple murdered had been friends or relatives of hers" scenerio. Try walking in the shoes of the victims for a while before coming out with such holier than thou pronouncements, based on wishful thinking not facts.

Subject: RE: Dorner Manhunt in California
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 15 Feb 13 - 04:27 PM

The name's Lizzie, thank you.

If you read my post more carefully you'd see that I said I did not condone the killings which took place. I am also perfectly capable of seeing it from the perspective of the relatives of the deceased...and just so's you know, I've heard the words "I'm sorry but your baby is dead" two times too many in my life...so please, do NOT patronize me over this.....

Christopher was not lying about the LAPD...read this and see...

Joe Jones, a former LAPD officer, has come out in support of Christopher Dorner:
http://christopher-dorner.com/joe-jones-manifesto/

Navy colleague speaks about his friend:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/cjlotz/chris-dorner-friend

I would imagine this poor man couldn't cope with the fact he'd not only lost his job for telling the truth, but that those who had done this kept there's whilst no investigation took place.

He was probably laughed at and called a liar and when you know that you are anything but, then it plays on your mind, a LOT.

Sadly, it seems his mind broke apart with the stress of it all and so, deep tragedy occurred.

I say again though, that had those within the LAPD to whom he complained accepted his complaint and acted upon it, then NONE of what followed would have happened..

Sadly, for the LAPD, he left behind a damning document...but whether this will be accepted as evidence, who knows?

They'll be way too busy putting out dirt about him, but at least he is now beyond their reach.

It is just a tragedy that any of this happened at all...