BS: Problems with Solar Energy

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 03:39 PM

Photo voltaic cells have been used recently which are much cheaper than panels.
The biggest problem with Solar Energy is that it is being torpedoed by Energy Company CEO's and corporate shills. If the U.S. really wanted to, instead of a ridiculous Manhattan Project, the money could be poured into alternative energy sources creating many jobs. The problems associated with Solar Energy could easily be solved. Instead, the U.S. had decided to poison the public with Nuclear facilities which are even more dangerous then the issuing of carbon emissions from coal plants. Nuclear facilities require coal plants to run them on top of everything else.

The only problem with Solar Energy is that the present government is unwilling to consider it in lieu of the present grotesque "clean coal" or "safe Nukes". In short, the lack of decent regulatory commissions which are bullied by corporate lobbyists and the greed of the Energy CEO's spell disaster for global warming and ultimately for the human species.

In short, any problems could be easily solved if there was the will to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 04:57 PM

"Will the growth of the new gas industry seriously slow down new energy development?"

It already has. There is a resistance by corporate energy to alternative sources.


"What will be the environmental cost?"

Fracking is far more hazardous than solar panels. It leaks dangerous chemicals into ground water and you can set your water tap on fire in Pennsylvania. It has produced biological problems from asthma, headaches to physical debilitation in people who live in fracking areas.

The nuclear alternative is far worse. It heats up the planet at a faster rate than coal burning plants. The chemicals it emits are devastatingly harmful. Cesium 137,
Cesium 134, gasses from uranium, plutonium possibilities....they are just beginning to discover the devastation from Chenobyl and Fukushima world wide.

Any problem with Solar energy is minute comparably.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Bert
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 05:07 PM

Let me see, Q, you're getting the energy for nothing and you are concerned that your device is only 40% efficient. Hmmm... I'm having difficulty following your logic here.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 06:13 PM

The basic problems with solar energy are dependability (must you be able have hot water on a cloudy day?), energy storage (which is expensive, but deals with the first problem), and wide-area distribution (whech can deal with the first two problems, but requires a new,massive and expensive infrastructure.
Direct solar heating (hot water, etc.) works well in terms of efficient enegy transfer, but presents problems in reaching sufficiently high temperatures (it takes a lot of energy to raise water temperatures from 40F to 75F, but that isn't much use when you're trying to take a hot shower.
Back-up energy supplies can solve all these problems, but at a cost. If you're in, say Vermont, a solar water heater needs an electric bck-up water heater (gas back-up heaters have excessively high storage losses)and, if you were originally using natural gas to heat your water, the combination of solar heating and electric back-up may well cost you more to runthan your old system. If you live in Texas, on the other hand...

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 06:50 PM

Dick, those problems keep solar panels, etc. from efficient household use in much of the higher latitudes. Even if many are connected to a grid system, as the Enmax system in Alberta, the power must be supplemented.
However, in Oahu, sun and warm climate has the company maintaining the grid worried- more power is available than they can use or store.

Also, as you note, conversion from natural gas to electrical heating is expensive, and where the gas is cheap, as in Alberta, people will not go to the expense of a new system.

"The problems with solar energy could easily be solved..." Much research is going into solar energy, but "Eureka" looks as distant as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: pdq
Date: 12 Mar 13 - 07:43 PM

There must be a Folkie who knows something about passive solar heating.

Happy Tromb?

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Bert
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 07:45 PM

There's this guy I met here in Colorado. He built a room on to the South side of his house. The South facing wall was pretty much all glass and he covered the opposite wall with a wall of used beer cans, filled with water, sealed and painted black.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 08:04 PM

In a somewhat related question: Might community gardens or some other civic thing (perhaps parks or even theme parks?) be built below the windmills on a wind farm? I've noticed that the ground beneath them seems to be wild and brushy. I realize that the property may be probably privately owned but when it is city or state-owned I think it would be advantageous to have multiple uses.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 08:08 PM

The largest problem with solar energy??? Dick Cheney's secret energy plan written by his BIG OIL polluting buddies which is still in effect.... More and more oil, gas and coal... You know... All the bad stuff and all the stuff that makes rich people richer...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 13 - 08:35 PM

Ebbie, I know of no reason why the land wind farms are on could not also be used for agriculture. Or a whole bunch of other possible purposes, for that matter.

I know this thread is specifically about solar energy, but I haven't seen any responses to the idea of a string of large turbines being anchored to the sea floor in strong ocean currents, such as the Gulf Stream or the many other ocean currents.

Objections such as "they'll kill whales" or "fish" or whatever just don't wash. It would be easy to prevent with a simple mesh screen around them.

This would be a tremendous source of power.

Or several different ways of harnessing tidal power. Lunar energy,harnessing the gravitational pull of the moon!

Clean, ongoing energy is out there for the taking. Are we just lacking in unimagination?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: pdq
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 11:42 AM

Adding a water heating system to an existing house is seldom a good investment.

Payback of 10-20 years means the house will be sold before the money is recouped.

The big enetgy waster is space heating.

A house should be planned carefully, including the building site.

Long term problems such as shading should be considered, as well as the obvious need for proper orientation to the Sun.

Here is a good place to learn more...

                                                                           https://www.thenaturalhome.com/passivesolar.html

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 01:27 PM

As might be expected, some of the energy companies using fossil fuels are investing in renewable energy sources. Statoil is one of them, with work on carbon capture and storage, wind power, and geothermal possibilities, as well as improved technology for current sources.
They have three research centers in Norway as well as a heavy oil research group in Canada. www.statoil.com

Canada is conducting research into the large tides effected by the gravitational pull of the moon and sun in the bay of Fundy. Large turbines (Atlantis/Lockheed Martin/Irving Shipbuilding) are planned.
http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/science/story/3616
Also see Blue Energy- http://www.bluenergy.com; tidal bridge technology.
Tha Annapolis Tidal Power Plant (Nova Scotia) was the first to transform tidal energy to electricity (Tidal Power Corp.). There are few places where the tidal range is sufficient, say Canadian scientists. One of the best in North America seems to be coastal British Columbia.
The Orkney plant (mentioned above in a post) is supplying power to the grid in Scotland.

Note: Currents like the Gulf Stream are slow and surficial; there is much deep water beneath such currents.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 01:52 PM

More digression on tidal power.
Siemans, the giant German company, is conducting research into tidal generation.
The plant off the Irish coast (Marine Current Turbines Ltd) should be mentioned. It is small, 1.2 megawatts, but the work is promising.

Hydrovision Brasil will conduct a conference this coming September:
http://www.hydrovisionbrasil.com/en/request-for-information; to get on their mailing list.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:28 PM

The Gulf Stream moves massive amounts of water. But it it meanders. And it is quite deep in places. So the time to profit and the cost of entry are higher than tidal generation on the COntinental Shelf, for example. Buty it could be done. Rick Driscoll, director of Florida Atlantic University's Center of Excellence in Ocean Energy Technology (CEOET), and his colleagues are hard at work developing a device that could allow his state to procure up to a third of its energy needs by tapping into the Gulf Stream's energy-dense waters. A field of underwater turbines moored 1,000 ft below the surface in the center of the Gulf Stream could - by drawing from its 8 billion gallons per minute flow rate - provide as much energy as several nuclear plants.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:30 PM

One advantage to the Gulf Stream is that it is driven by coriolis forces of the plaet's rotation, not by lunar pull.

See here for a treatment on Gulf Strem generators.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 03:34 PM

I love this Town Hall approach!

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:20 PM

Thanks, Amos.
Florida Atlantic is concentrating its research to the Florida Current between Florida and the Bahamas. The study is in its infancy and they are soliciting support from industry and financial "angels."
Their efforts are worth watching.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:35 PM

Thanks a million for posting that link, Amos!

It seems the technology has move apace since I first heard of the concept in the eighties! And far more sophisticated than the drawings I saw back then.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:42 PM

I have been reading about the huge investment funds that have developed in the past few years.

The Norwegian Oil Fund (Government Pension Fund Global) has increased another 13 percent in 2012 to $US 712 billion. It is invested in stocks and bonds worldwide, it holds 1.8 percent of all European stocks, and is increasing its holdins in China and Australia in particular over the last few months.

Should "Big Investment" put more money into start-up companies, e. g., renewable energy concerns?

Other giant investment funds are out there. The Ontario Teachers Pension Plan has $US120 billion in assets (strong in NY office building rentals and Canadian real estate through its subsidiaries and ownership of Samsonite and other companies) and is talking of increasing its pipeline holdings (TransCanada, etc.).

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:34 AM

Just imagine if the government and ANY of the energy 'providers' weren't so fucking corrupt....we wouldn't even be yakking about it at all!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 12:48 PM

And how did these governments get so corrupt in the first place, GfinS???

Let me guess... Could it be that the BIG polluters have been allowed direct access to power because they can afford to buy off as many people as is required to do so???

Think Koch brothers here... Oh, and 5 Supreme Clowns for becoming the doormen for the polluters...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:44 PM

One solution to the problem of creating energy would be to use less of it.
Even with a Solar solution, it's better than the detrimental health costs associated with fracking, coal plants and nuclear power. The problems are much greater with these.

When you discuss dependability, you have to factor in the cost of curtailing radiation,
poisoning of the ground water and the emission of carbon. People living near nuclear plants have a higher incidence of cancer, thyroid problems and possible transferring of genetic
damage to future generations. Reported incidents of lung problems, asthma, headaches and disorientation are associated with gas fracturing. The amount of carbon from coal burning plants makes it more problematic although nuclear radiation and chemicals are a far greater problem.

Whatever the disadvantages of Solar technology, this is outweighed by the propensity of
the extinction of our species through global warming and more Chernobyls and Fukushimas
which are bound to happen in the U.S. and other countries.

I think mankind's survival is more of a priority.

A lot of these Solar Energy problems could be solved if there were not the Energy Companies blocking it and the will of the people stronger. However, the Alternative
Energy is coming in fast and could develop an antidote to these problems before
mankind commits environmental suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 10:32 AM

call me a pedant but isn't hydro-electricity driven by solar energy?

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 11:46 AM

Well, indirectly so is every energy source, but theproximate cause is gravity.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 12:56 PM

Hydroelectricity has its source in the flow of water. In the U. S. and elsewhere, dams provide the fall of water that turns the turbines.

Statoil (Norway) uses the term Hy-wind for wind-driven floating turbines; Dogger Bank (Yorkshire), Sheringham Shoal (UK) have turbines offshore.

The first floating wind turbine is off the coast of Norway (Statoil), the first in deep water. These wind and tide driven turbines can be considered "solar" if that term is extended to all systems that ultimately depend on the sun.

Statoil is expert in offshore oil exploration and recovery, and is expanding its energy-producing efforts to wind and water power.

Contrary to the Luddite and deprecatory remarks aimed at "Big Oil" and other major concerns (Phillips, etc.) in general, some of these companies are researching and developing renewable energy sources, along with the smaller, start-up concerns who are researching and developing wind and solar potential. Some of these, like Statoil, a "Biggie", are far along in their research and pilot plant efforts.

http://www.statoil.com and look for their links to their new technology and new energy sources.

The object of all major energy companies is to give their many millions of investors (direct, through banks, trusts, pension funds, coops, etc.) a return on investment. Some are wedded to petroleum because of their large holdings of reserves but others will look to all sources of potential revenue.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 04:02 PM

The Summit Power Group, this summer, plans to break ground on a US$2,5 billion coal gasification plant at Odessa, Texas.
The plant does not burn the coal, but will capture 90 percent of the carbon emissions, part to make fertilizer and the rest sold to the petroleum industry to push into the ground to enhance oil recovery.
Exxon Mobil will be one of the users of the enhancement technique, which will extend the life of current fields.

China is rapidly going ahead with coal-fired power plants, but they could decide to take advantage of this technology. TXU, the large power company and coal user, is planning 11 new coal-fired plants. The new technology could be attractiv to them and cause change in their plans.

The main enemies of this solution to the carbon problem are the rate-payers- the customers- because the carbon-capture method is expensive and increased costs of the electricity would be passed on to them.

The Texas Clean Energy Project is getting $450 million from the U.S. Department of Energy to help with the expense. One-third of that amount will absurdly be taken back by the government as tax!

NY Times, Joe Nocera, March 15, 2013, "A Real Carbon Solution."

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 13 - 04:11 PM

President Obama has proposed using $2 billion in oil and gas money to put toward the development of alternative fuel card.
It is doubtful that House Republicans would support the plan.

NY Times, Mar. 15, 2013, John M. Brroder, "Obama Seeks ...."

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: GUEST,Sooz (sans cookie)
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 05:17 AM

We have 16 solar PV panels on our roof (4kw potential on a good day.) They cost us nothing as we leased our roof to the company that fitted them. They get the feed in tariff from the government and we get to use as much electricity as we can, while it is being generated so our energy bills have gone down. Luckily we have a large, South facing roof!

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 06:24 AM

Bobert: "And how did these governments get so corrupt in the first place, GfinS???"


Bobert, I thought I covered it here.....

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 01:50 PM

Solar panels are useless here in Calgary except for about four months in summer, and providing the roof has the proper orientation and exposure. Vitamin B is recommended for everybody here, to compensate for the lack of exposure to the sun in the long winters.

Cheap natural gas here makes solar panels not cost-effective, in any case.

Wind power, on the other hand, is practical outside of the city proper.

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 03:33 PM

Q, let me state the obvious:   there are many more ways of using solar power than solar panels. That's only one possible application.

And shouldn't that be vitamin D?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Problems with Solar Energy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 13 - 06:31 PM

Don, my vitamin bottle distinctly has a large D on it. Dunno why I put "B."

As I have posted, yes, there are other ways of harvesting solar energy than panels.

Natural gas supplies are abundant and cheap here and will remain so for the forseeable future, hence there is little incentive to try solar heating in western Canada.

Wind generation, however, is gaining converts in rural areas across the prairies, and is entering the grid. The Pembina Institute champions wind power in Alberta- http://www.pembina.otg/re/wind-power-rural-Alberta