BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 01:14 PM

Steve Shaw! PIMPL!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 01:27 PM

Stringsinger, Dr. Dawkins is calm and reasoned? He wrote a book called "the God Delusion" which he has been aggressively flitting around the world promoting in a media blitz for years.

Diagnosing two thirds of the world as having a mental disorder is neither calm nor reasoned. Especially when it is done by a person without a background in mental health.

Dr. Dawkins in his Atheistic Evangelism is as confrontational and unscientific as any climate change denier.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 01:56 PM

I'm sorry, Mrrzy (assuming that I've taken your remark in the right way - apologies if I've got it wrong) and Jack, but you have homework to do. Now it could be that you think you hate Dawkins so much that you can't bring yourself to even look at him. Well, dozens of YouTubes of him debating with all manner of people, from archbishops to unreconstructed manic religious zealots have been posted. To select one or two in order to show you what a nice bloke he is would be invidious, but you'd better at least have a look at a few before rushing to judgement. You will find him to be an unfailing good listener who takes on board what his opponent says and who then addresses their points closely. Naturally, cool logic can come across as irritating to someone whose points have not been properly hatched in their minds. That happens to Jack on these threads all the time, for example. The God Delusion, which sits on my shelf right here, is a very carefully argued work. Of course it is an attack on religion, but perhaps religion might be all the healthier if it were attacked a little more and treated with undue reverence a little less. Easy enough to aim your hate-blunderbuss at Dawkins and his book as soon as you see them coming. A bit harder to select passages you disagree with and give your careful counter-argument. There's your challenge. It's only fair to the man, eh? Demonisation is easy. Demolition by logic and argument is ten times harder but it's the right way to go.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 02:03 PM

aggressively flitting around the world promoting in a media blitz for years

How do you aggressively flit around the world? Punch the check-in girl on the nose and threaten the baggage-handler with a machete, perhaps? Spend the flight throwing pies at the other passengers while swearing loudly at them? When you get there, do you menace prospective purchasers of your book at the point of a knife?

Jack, religion aggressively promotes itself around here everywhere you go. Big buildings with huge great crosses, bells chiming out every half-hour, wayside pulpits everywhere, masses of telly time devoted to popes and archbishops - and you wanna see it at Christmas and Easter!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 07:57 PM

I personally suspect that strangers are just friends we haven't talked to yet, and atheists are spiritualists who haven't had their epiphany yet. Religionists, however, are altogether something else, especially when they get didactic, dogmatic, and condescending from their perch of perceived truth. That's when the whole thing gets boring as hell and I'd rather sing sea chanties.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 08:07 PM

"Jack, religion aggressively promotes itself around here everywhere you go."

Yes. that is true of many religious groups and people. That is one of the ways that Dawkins' belief system, the pseudo scientific church of anti-religious screeds is like a one of those groups.

Dawkins is dogmatic. One of his dogmas is "The God Delusion."
Dawkins' dogma must be taken on faith. He has no psychological credentials and has not had the means or opportunity to diagnose 4 billion or more people.

Most importantly, Dawkins' world view is like a religion in that those who believe it are those who really really want to and who throw critical thinking about it aside because they want to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 13 - 09:57 PM

Dawkins' belief system...the pseudo scientific church...Dawkins is dogmatic...Dawkins' dogma must be taken on faith....Dawkins' world view is like a religion...

Sure, Jack. Time for a lie-down, old son. Say goodnight to the folks, Gracie...



***Pieces of eight! Pieces of eight!***

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:24 AM

I consider myself agnostic although I agree with many of Christ's socialist teachings. I have no use for a diety that wants me to bow down, pray, and worship, but the message to "share with my fellow man" I see as a goal to self fulfillment. However, if my motivation in doing so is to save my soul or to gain entrance to Heaven through the back door, that seems a selfish reason without merit! I resolutely reject stupid dogma from any religion that demands that I adhere to their template without some evidence of a physical nature that it is correct. I regard the Bible and Koran as simply books written by man and reject both in parts but see wisdom in other sections. I do believe that there are many forces in this Universe far beyond our ability to comprehend, but I reject dogma from others who claim understanding because they accept what is written in some book on faith alone.
I suppose some would consider me an athiest but I have a spiritual nature that rejects that as well, so I call myself agnostic.
Christianity,Islam and other religions could do well by rejecting bonds of dogmatic crap and look to improving the lives of fellow humans, rather than wasting time and prayer on a diety that doesn't exist!
However if it is your wish or desire to do so please don't judge me for having an alternate view!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:33 AM

Hello Sailor!
So far up your own arse that you judge others by your own standard again?

The God Delusion questions whether a belief system is needed and scrutinises the existing fantasies. Either your copy has extra chapters I haven't seen or it doesn't really advocate an alternative belief system does it?

Come on, be honest. You are spouting off what you want rather than what you observe. Don't fret, that alone makes you good at blind faith.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 07:18 AM

Dawkin's deliberately uses an incorrect definition of the word delusion. He uses it in a derogatory way to empower the ignorant, childish, taunting buffoons of his movement.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Frug
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 08:05 AM

Atheists are just beyond belief!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 08:17 AM

A delusion is a strongly-held belief or conviction which ignores all the powerful evidence against it. If you believe in God you have chosen to believe something for which there is no evidence for and a massive amount of evidence against. The word "delusion" for believers in God is, therefore, perfectly valid, though, admittedly, provocative. But you can't really address the matter of believers getting it wrong without being provocative. I think there is nothing wrong with his use of the word. Of course, if you mistakenly hold to the view that "delusion" can have only a medical meaning, you would disagree. But you'd be deluded in sticking to that, as the use of the word in its non-medical sense is widespread and accepted.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 08:17 AM

A delusion is a strongly-held belief or conviction which ignores all the powerful evidence against it. If you believe in God you have chosen to believe something for which there is no evidence for and a massive amount of evidence against. The word "delusion" for believers in God is, therefore, perfectly valid, though, admittedly, provocative. But you can't really address the matter of believers getting it wrong without being provocative. I think there is nothing wrong with his use of the word. Of course, if you mistakenly hold to the view that "delusion" can have only a medical meaning, you would disagree. But you'd be deluded in sticking to that, as the use of the word in its non-medical sense is widespread and accepted.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 08:18 AM

I can think of no earthly or heavenly reason why that popped up twice.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Skeptic
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 08:33 AM

Big Science is just as big a fraud as Big Religion ever was--it's just taken over the rackets-all universities that used to be bastions of religion and philosophy are now the bastions of "science"--making the same promises--"The Miracle of Science" promises to cure all disease, solve social problems, eliminate hunger, but look around--there's just as much suffering as ever. The only problems "Big Science" really cares about are budget cuts.

"Science" claims to be logical and rational, but God help the logical, rational scientist, who points out that the research of the other 99% is full of holes, and that the current theories are hogwash.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 08:41 AM

He is sympathetic to Robert Pirsig's statement in Lila that "when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion".[4]

He is calling 2/3rds of the world insane.

Who is deluded?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 09:29 AM

Well, Jack, in this particular [assuming your statistic to be valid], ⅔ of the world are, extremely strongly arguably, 'deluded'; Pirsig's axiom, and Dawson's perhaps somewhat tongue-in-cheek citation of it, constituted just a bit of wit and irony and satire, you know, not the postulation of an incontrovertible truth. We [if I may so put it pronominally] do not go in for incontrovertible truths.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 09:31 AM

"Are Atheists really Atheists"
If they don't believe in a god - yes they are.
There's plenty of evidence to suggest that all Christians aren't Christians (certainly as far as Christian teaching and ethics are concerned)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 10:12 AM

The title was a provocation. It was deliberately insulting. Dawkins is a jerk. Shaw is a jerk. When it comes to this subject at least, Musket too. Militant Atheists are jerks.

It follows a logic similar to, Christians are mean so lets be mean, Christians are bigoted so lets give them some of their own medicine! Christians are dogmatic, so lets be unwavering in our accusations of that.

It is cruel, small minded and divisive, and the media battles it generates are entertaining and sell books.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 10:36 AM

Jack according to your calculations, Christians must be jerks too. They think that anyone who doesn't believe as they are deluded. Dawkins uses the term delusion in a scientific way. In a sense we are all deluded in some regard. We all have are pet delusions, one is that we think we know everything and are qualified in some way to make all kinds of judgements.

Christians are plenty mean and are cruel, small minded and divisive as much as anyone else.

Here is an article that shed light on the problem.


Has dogmatism become the new religion?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 10:49 AM

***Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are "super" natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.***

Prove it.

**Atheists don't stop at criticizing Christianity. All religion is suspect because it is based on mythology not science.**

This SHOULD be true but, of course, it isn't. I've had atheists get really pissed at me for saying that I'd rather live in a Christian society than a Muslim one (I've lived in both). THEY'RE BOTH JUST AS BAD!!! they yelled. No. They're not.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:01 AM

"Jack according to your calculations, Christians must be jerks too."

Not Christians in general, some Christians. Joe Offer is a leading Christin voice on this forum. He is not a jerk.

Not Atheists. All atheists are not jerks. Most are not jerks.

I am only talking about three. I'll leave Hitchens out as he is not around to defend or explain himself. Dawkins, Shaw and Musket are jerks when it comes to this topic. I am saying that they are no better than the Christians they complain about. I am NOT saying they are as bad as the worst of those who calling themselves Christian. I AM saying that they are stooping to that same smug, dogmatic, superior, and condescending mode of interaction exhibited by the most irritating of "Christians".

I put "Christians" in quotes because I find it difficult to reconcile engaging in such behavior in the name of Christ, according to the Gospels taught the opposite.

I think, Stringsinger, I hope, we understand each other on this topic now.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:13 AM

Dawkins is a jerk. Shaw is a jerk. When it comes to this subject at least, Musket too.

Oi, that's not fair! Why isn't Michael a jerk too! Not fair! Boo hoo!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:14 AM

Futwick,

I get your point, though it seems that you are saying that All Muslim societies are less pleasant places to live than all Christian ones.

That is something that would be nearly impossible for anyone to know.

I believe that from your point of view the Christian societies you have experienced are better places for you to live than Muslim ones.

Do you think it is a matter of bigotry on their part. Lumping all religious people in together? Is it like some people in Britain who think everyone in the USA drives a pickup truck with a gun rack?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:16 AM

"Dawkins is a jerk. Shaw is a jerk. When it comes to this subject at least, Musket too.

Oi, that's not fair! Why isn't Michael a jerk too! Not fair! Boo hoo! "

You work a lot harder to alienate people than he does. Enjoy the fruits of your labour! Revel in them!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:16 AM

I am only talking about three. I'll leave Hitchens out as he is not around to defend or explain himself. Dawkins, Shaw and Musket are jerks

Gosh, I think I might be feeling honoured. What illustrious company! Hope you can live up to it, Musket. And I bet you're bloody jealous now, Michael!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,guestlex
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:39 AM

You have three threads going all mixed in together.What's the protocol to dodge the drama, as impossible to debate unless you can address points relevant from all threads.Do you realy want another thread on this.Anyway going to stick spellchecker on this fresh install and try have at some of Steve's debate..not argument.People should breathe the tension if any out before a response, or clarity goes bye bye imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:57 AM

**I get your point, though it seems that you are saying that All Muslim societies are less pleasant places to live than all Christian ones.

That is something that would be nearly impossible for anyone to know.**

You could hold up Joseph Kony as an example of Christianity at its worst but you would also be hard pressed to find many examples that extreme. Unfortunately, the same is not true of Islam. And, for the record, I am not religious nor belong to any religion nor have any use for religion except as an example of how not to get through life.

**I believe that from your point of view the Christian societies you have experienced are better places for you to live than Muslim ones.**

From my experience, yes. Others could disagree. Qatar's supposed to be pretty nice. I've never lived there.

**Do you think it is a matter of bigotry on their part. Lumping all religious people in together? Is it like some people in Britain who think everyone in the USA drives a pickup truck with a gun rack?**

They need to realize that they hold unprovable beliefs no differently than religious people and that their championing of science is often just as selective. Saying consciousness is a product of matter does not seem to be in agreement with Quantum Mechanics which holds that consciousness holds a fundamental sway over matter. In fact, Eastern religions seem correct to conclude that matter is an appearance, an illusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:00 PM

Oh well: jerk on, jerk off...

Ah , hrrrmmmm, that is, er, I meantersay...

blushblushblusahblushblus........〠

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:19 PM

They need to realize that they hold unprovable beliefs no differently than religious people

Well, any atheist worth his or her salt will admit that our conviction is unprovable. Not "beliefs" by the way. Beliefs don't enter into this for atheists. Unfortunately, that completely nullifies your final point about being no different from religious people. There is no equal and opposite equivalence between what I think and what a believer believes in. That has been said so many times that it's getting hard to know what to think about people who fail to take it on board.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Musket
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:27 PM

Yep I'd better live up to it..

Here we go.

And for my next impersonation, Jesus on a Rubber Cross.

Whooooaaaa!!!!!!   HHHeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!   Whoooooaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 12:36 PM

Are Atheists really Atheists or...----Athenians-- spelled really badly?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:06 PM

You may find this rather interesting...


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:22 PM

**Well, any atheist worth his or her salt will admit that our conviction is unprovable. Not "beliefs" by the way. Beliefs don't enter into this for atheists. Unfortunately, that completely nullifies your final point about being no different from religious people.**

If an atheist tells me that the fundamental constituent of the universe is matter, he first has to tell me what matter is. He can't because science can't. Objects are just clouds of molecules. Molecules are clouds of certain atoms. Atoms are clouds of what? Physicists say an atom is is made up of particles that are really waves. Waves of what? "Waves of chance." What is that? So ultimately, we don't know what matter is but you would have us believe it is the fundamental constituent of the universe. Isn't that not terribly different than saying the universe was made by a mysterious spook in the sky whose ways and means we don't really know anything about? Same dogma, slightly different rhetoric.

**There is no equal and opposite equivalence between what I think and what a believer believes in.**

But couldn't a believer could say the same about another believer?

**That has been said so many times that it's getting hard to know what to think about people who fail to take it on board.**

Not really. I agree with atheists when they say that non-belief in a god is not in itself a belief. That's a common believer tactic. It's not your non-belief I wish to address simply because I agree with it. It's what you posted earlier--that matter is the fundamental constituent of the universe and that everything else, including consciousness, arises from it epiphenomenally. You posted that as a (false) corollary to atheism, i.e. to be an atheist, I must believe that because it follows from having no belief in a god. THAT is a belief for which there is not a shred of evidence which a subscriber must buy on faith alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:30 PM

***Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are "super" natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.***

Going back to this definition of atheism as given to us by Steve Shaw, I have this to ask:

How does atheism differ from Marxism?

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Musket
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 02:22 PM

Marxism is a prescribed system for society. Atheism is just about everything according to this and other threads.... For me, it is evolving from the need for superstition, but to someone else it is the theory of fish gill wave propagation, or the art of opening a tin of tuna.

Futwick, just before some of the more learned posters explain things, perhaps an idiot like me can help you here. Molecules to atoms to quarks to waves of probability to Heisenberg getting pissed off at Schrodinger.. You seem to be mistaking this for a belief system, whereas it is no more than making sense of theory and test. Religion would defend the fundamental aspects against any future testing, whereas science allows you to dismiss the ether, dismiss Greek four elements, dismiss many things Einstein held to be fact for many years in fact.

Religion has a habit of sustaining myth, hence it is dismissed at any intellectual level and has no place in discussions over how the universe works.

Oh, and I suppose it is the bloody Godbotherers who ensured B&Q was shut when I drove 8 miles to get some light fittings today. Hawking doesn't interfere with church services, clappy happy types shouldn't interfere with the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Futwick
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 02:32 PM

Let me put this another way:

Atheism has NOTHING to do with whether or not matter is the fundamental constituent of the universe--a Marxist position, look it up. Atheism has NOTHING to do with whether consciousness arises from matter.

When we get passed borrowing cheap, erroneous assumptions from what should be a dead, defunct political philosophy to any thinking person could we then get back to actual atheist refutations of pro-god arguments which is not only the bread and butter of atheism--it is the ENTIRETY of atheism. Everything else is Marxist bullshit that can't be proven one way or another--certainly not by Marxists.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 02:53 PM

"certainly not by Marxists."
Nor by anti-Marxists evidently
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 03:04 PM

Futwick, I'm not sure, from your post what you are saying, nor to whom you are addressing. could you make that a bit more clear.
Thank you.

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 05:57 PM

Matter is a very poor choice of words. Energy is not matter and it is visible in in daily life. Space exists but it is not matter. It is basically the absence of matter. Scientists believe several particles which are not technically "matter" in neutrinos, tachyons, gravitons. Is Dark Matter, matter? Certainly "Dark energy" is not.

That is the American Atheist definition used to argue the position of that organization to the Supreme Court of the United States. IMHO the word "matter" is confusing and should be deleted.

It is probable that that definition was written by a layperson, not a scientist, Possibly a lawyer.


http://atheists.org/atheism

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:07 PM

Well, Jack, our founding fathers, wanted to be free of Europe's tyranny of both religion and their banking system and taxation...so, in drafting the Constitution, they rejected the Divine Right of Kings as being sovereign....and put forth that the PEOPLE are sovereign!!!!
..and they based their premise on the Christian/Judea idea that one's will, should NOT intrude over another person's rights...in other words, 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'..... so your statement, "It is probable that that definition was written by a layperson, not a scientist, Possibly a lawyer." is somewhat interesting, because lawyers have used slick language and fraud, to remove us away from the premise of our founding fathers....but they sure get paid well for it!
How about the rest of us?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:22 PM

Marxism is a political belief based on economic theory. Not all atheists subscribe to it.
It doesn't define atheism any more than Bugs Bunny defines rabbits. (Happy Easter):)

Remember also that Ayn Rand followers, it they are devout, purport to be atheists as well.

Jack, some scientists are claiming that "nothing" or empty space is matter that is of a quantum nature and that we can't see it. Energy may be a form of matter.

One could argue that dogmatism is of a generalized "religious" nature and therefore
Bolshevik Communism might be loosely defined as "religious" since its adherents
have a dogmatic devotion to it.

The logical fallacy prevails. You can't prove a negative. You can argue in favor of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny but if you can't prove it, it becomes an irrational belief.

Does it serve a social purpose? Maybe sometimes it does. Some more enlightened religious groups like the Quakers or Unitarians (many who are atheists) do important social work as do other offshoots of established religions. I, for one, am sympathetic to Liberation Theology, anathema to the Pope and Catholic hierarchy.

Atheists are atheists because there are so many different kinds. They are generally opposed to dogmatism with proof wherever it rears its ugly head. BTW, there are
different "gods" that Christians and other faiths believe in as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:34 PM

Yes GfS, lawyers write briefs to SCOTUS. For that purpose they are generally preferable to scientists.

"Energy may be a form of matter." has someone changed the definition of matter and not told me?

nope.

>>>
mat·ter
[mat-er] Show IPA
noun
1.
the substance or substances of which any physical object consists or is composed: the matter of which the earth is made.
2.
physical or corporeal substance in general, whether solid, liquid, or gaseous, especially as distinguished from incorporeal substance, as spirit or mind, or from qualities, actions, and the like.
3.
something that occupies space.
4.
a particular kind of substance: coloring matter.
5.
a situation, state, affair, or business: a trivial matter. <<<

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 07:23 PM

Futwick, there are two recent posts of yours down this thread that ascribe things to me that someone else must have said. It definitely wasn't me. On my timeline the posts in question are at 1.22pm and 1.30pm. Please would you check more carefully who said what before you post.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 07:28 PM

Oh, and I suppose it is the bloody Godbotherers who ensured B&Q was shut when I drove 8 miles to get some light fittings today.

Yeah well I've got no sympathy cos you coulda gone yesterday instead of arseing around at Hillsborough, innit. Tsk!

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 07:38 PM

I think there is a high probability that futwick, got that definition here.

Whose fault is it that he said her got it from you?

>>>Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 26 Mar 13 - 07:11 PM

Dearie me, I have got things slighlty arse about face here. That first sentence I referred to missed out on my copy 'n' paste. Yertis, as we say in Cornwall, along with the missing follow-up bits.

Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are "super" natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.


So the piece of poppycock I referred to was this bit: Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units.<<<

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 07:44 PM

It is one thing to be an atheist, and another thing altogether to be a complete materialist. In between there is, for example, the position that spiritual existence is the source of individual views and thought itself and that one is wholly and personally responsible for his/her own condition. No theism involved, but not a hard materialist position, either. And this is one example out of scores of possible positions that are neither theist nor purely mechanistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 07:49 PM

>>>Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 07:23 PM

Futwick, there are two recent posts of yours down this thread that ascribe things to me that someone else must have said. It definitely wasn't me. On my timeline the posts in question are at 1.22pm and 1.30pm. Please would you check more carefully who said what before you post. <<<

I could not find mention of your name at 1:22.

I am developing a couple of scientific hypotheses.

1. Mr Steve Shaw, does not pay adequate attention to what he himself posts let alone anyone else.

2. Mr. Shaw, does not read posts with due care before he criticizes people.

I predict that he will continue to exhibit these behaviours. The lab is this forum. The hypotheses will be tested by observation. Anyone is free to collect data through observation. You can post it here. please include links to his posts and the header. "Shaw hypotheses observation." Thank you for participating in the scientific process.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 08:42 PM

At 1.22 pm on my timeline, futwick quoted a couple of things I said, then, addressing me, he said: It's what you posted earlier--that matter is the fundamental constituent of the universe and that everything else, including consciousness, arises from it epiphenomenally. You posted that as a (false) corollary to atheism, i.e. to be an atheist, I must believe that because it follows from having no belief in a god. THAT is a belief for which there is not a shred of evidence which a subscriber must buy on faith alone.

I did not post that stuff. In fact, I haven't a bloody clue what he's on about. It wasn't me. Simple as that.

At 1.30pm on my timeline, futwick posted this:

***Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are "super" natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.***

Going back to this definition of atheism as given to us by Steve Shaw...

That definition was not given by me. Not only did I not give it, I strongly refuted it. That was something I had quoted from someone else's post in order to comment on it - yours, I believe?

Jack, futwick and I can sort this out. Your snide and inaccurate intervention is as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit and serves to make you look an even bigger twat than we all know you already are. Why not contemplate a period of silence. You could profitably spend some of that time trying to extricate your foot from your mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Are Atheists really Atheists or......
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 13 - 08:53 PM

"That was something I had quoted from someone else's post in order to comment on it - yours, I believe?"

But you didn't bother to give attribution and he got it from you. He was truthful and acting in good faith.

And he did not address you at 1:22. How do you know he was talking to you? How would anyone else?



Take some responsibility for you own BS please.