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BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion
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Subject: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 29 Mar 13 - 01:58 PM Heritage Minister James Moore wants to spend $1.1 billion on making Canada bilingual in fac; "strengthening unity." The money would go to French Immersion, Immigration, Strengthening minority communities. There are French immersion curicula in B. C. and Alberta, but they have had little effect. One reason is that most people know no one of French extraction, and the language is forgotton as soon as the students leave school. In Calgary, many languages are spoken among the immigrants (almost 25% of the population) and only English becomes common to all. I think that the proposal wastes money that could be uses to better purpose- jobs, medicine, etc. What is your opinion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Jack the Sailor Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:06 PM Canada's two major problems, French as a second language and snowbird dollars laving the country could be solved with one simple move. Invite Cuba to join as the 11th province. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 29 Mar 13 - 02:32 PM Oh, dear! A third language? How abot the Caymans, Bahamas, etc.? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: GUEST, topsie Date: 29 Mar 13 - 04:10 PM When I was in Montreal in the sixties I got the impression that the French speakers did not want the English speakers to speak or understand French, though I realise that attitudes may have changed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Jack the Sailor Date: 29 Mar 13 - 04:25 PM Yeah a third language, and 20% more Spanish than French. People in BC and the prairies would have a choice of two languages they can't use. More doctors per capita, warm beaches, great music, grow your own coffee and bananas. How much better is that than poutine and bon homme de neige? If it works out, then other islands might be invited Taiwan, Madagascar, Greenland.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Ed T Date: 29 Mar 13 - 06:01 PM Litmus test: How popular would it be to spend half this amount of money in Quebec on English Immersion, Immigration, Strengthening English minority communities? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: gnu Date: 29 Mar 13 - 07:07 PM Oooooo... can of SLIMEY worms! This may get nasssstaaay! But, can YOUSE handle the truth? The REAL truth? The corruption? "The money would go to French Immersion, Immigration, Strengthening minority communities." French is the hook line. The rest is a ticket for corrupt politicins and bureaucrats to line their offshore bank accounts. There is big money to be made by allowing and funding immigrants to come here and take over businesses built up by Canucks whose families have been here for generations... families who sacrificed and fought in wars. These poor Canucks cannot compete with the $$$ that these immigrants have. I know of one such that happened less than 1km from where I type. There are many. Bilingualism? I am all for it for a number of reasons. It has led to great prosperity for my province and especially for my home town. But, the immigration law changes "tacked on"? The combination of the Departments of Citizenship and of Immigration? WTF? The slimey corrupted pieces of shit should be exposed and land in the PEN! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: bobad Date: 29 Mar 13 - 07:19 PM "How popular would it be to spend half this amount of money in Quebec on English Immersion, Immigration, Strengthening English minority communities?" Education and immigration in Quebec are under provincial jurisdiction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Jack the Sailor Date: 29 Mar 13 - 07:21 PM Immigration? That is so screwed up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: gnu Date: 29 Mar 13 - 08:33 PM bobad... immigration to La Belle is now within provicial jurisdiction? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: bobad Date: 29 Mar 13 - 08:39 PM From wikipedia: The Canada-Quebec Accord is a legal agreement concerning immigration issues between the federal government of Canada and the Province of Quebec. The broad accord signed in 1991 preceded similar agreements with other provinces including British Columbia and Manitoba. The arrangement gives Quebec the exclusive responsibility of choosing immigrants and refugees still living in their own countries but wishing to relocate to the province. Selected applicants are issued a "certificat de sélection du Québec". Citizenship and Immigration Canada issues the actual visa after background and health verifications. The provinces also have agreements with the federal government in that they can nominate individuals for immigration purposes, similar to the way Quebec does. New immigrants are entitled to settlement assistance such as free language training under provincial government administered programs usually called Language Instruction for Newcomers to Canada (LINC), for which the federal government has budgeted about $350 million to give to the provinces for the fiscal year 2006-2007.[1] The majority of the $350 million is allocated to Quebec under the Canada-Quebec Accord, at $196 million per year,[2] even though immigration to Quebec represented only 16.5% of all immigration to Canada in 2005.[3] The $350 million is budgeted to increase by an additional $90 million by 2009.[4] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Jack the Sailor Date: 30 Mar 13 - 02:28 AM Do you think the T-Party would let Texas do that? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Mar 13 - 03:14 AM I think that if a country were truly bilingual, that might be a great economic, cultural, and political advantage. Seems logical to me that the U.S. should have Spanish as a second language, and that would give us good ties to most of the Americas. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: gnu Date: 30 Mar 13 - 10:16 AM It does, Joe. And so does immigration. But not politicians who subvert the proper processes that have served Canucks so well for so many years. The whole works should be examined by a royal commission. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 30 Mar 13 - 12:04 PM I'll take one of those posts on a royal commission. I am expert in inflating expense accounts, which is a requirement for selection. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Bert Date: 30 Mar 13 - 12:10 PM Someone speaking out AGAINST education. That's a new one for Mudcat. My great nephew in Calgary was in French Immersion so that he can speak to his aunt in her own language. I wish they had taught French that way when I was in school. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 30 Mar 13 - 12:43 PM Bert, I am not against education (I have a Ph.D), but some efforts are ineffective. From what I observe here in Calgary, your great nephew is an exception. I have a grandson who was in French immersion, but he has already lost most of his ability in the language because he lives in an English-speaking society, with no French contacts except the labels on canned Canadian foodstuffs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: gnu Date: 30 Mar 13 - 01:17 PM Q... if a third of the nation can speak it, the other 2/3 can learn and if we all spoke it, we could all talk to each other for practice. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: CET Date: 30 Mar 13 - 02:11 PM I have some difficulty with complaints from Canadians about promoting the other official language, when in most countries in Europe you can't graduate high school without having studied at least one foreign language. I would like to see French made compulsory right up to high school graduation, with other languages like Chinese or Spanish as highly desirable options. On the other hand I'm conflicted about bilingualism. I have a degree in French, I have studied in France and Quebec, and I have worked professionally in French for almost 30 years, but I am sick of the bilingual politics in the government - huge amounts of money spent so that senior bureaucrats and officers can punch their bilingual tickets by grinding out a few lines of execrable French at public conferences without ever actual producing any work in French. Also, you see good people whose careers are held back because they didn't make level "C" in the approved government test. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Ebbie Date: 30 Mar 13 - 03:31 PM I agree with Joe Offer- it seems logical that the US's second language should be Spanish, probably with a Mexican bent. Not because we don't have a LOT of other languages spoken in this country but the history of Mexico and its people are inextricably woven into ours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 30 Mar 13 - 04:10 PM Calgary Demographics. Interesting to see that, of the 1.1 million in the city, only 22% call themselves Canadian, 2.7% French, Quebecois or Metis. English 18%, Scot 8%, Chinese 7%, German 9%, etc. French is completely swamped. Quite different from Maritime Canada. I remember sitting outside a playground in the Gaspe (field trip, waiting for vehicles to be gassed up, etc.) and watching the children play. One would say something in French, get an answer in English, and so on among all the children. Bilingualism meant something there, as it was a part of peoples lives. There is some neighborhood separation in Calgary. A map shows a group of northern Calgary neighborhoods as 22% Chinese and 15% Canadian, another 9% call themselves English. A group of named neighborhoods in northeast Calgary is 37% East Indian, 9% Filipino and 11% Canadian. An area in central Calgary (Beltline, Inglewood, etc.) is 18% Chinese, with Canadian about 15% and English 9%. Above from Calgary Herald maps and figures. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: GUEST Date: 30 Mar 13 - 04:18 PM It seems logical for English and French to be promoted in each Cdn province. But, the use of one is controlled, even illegal in one province. I suspect this is the root of some of the resistance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: GUEST Date: 30 Mar 13 - 04:24 PM Sorry Q Gaspe is part of Quebec, not the Maritimes. New Brunswick is more bilingual, Nova Scotia and Quebec has very few French specking residen |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Jim McLean Date: 30 Mar 13 - 05:41 PM Interestingly, Calgary was named after a town in Mull, Scotland, where most of the residents were turfed out of their homeland to make way for sheep and their Gaelic language had been forbidden previously. Gaelic is making a comeback in Scotland fortunately. I'm a great believer in multilingualism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Mar 13 - 05:58 PM Once upon a time, I explored the French-speaking district of Clare, in western Nova Scotia. They had the most beautiful, wooden churches, enormous buildings out in the middle of nowhere. I went into one, and there was a group of ladies cleaning the church. They were speaking French, but they switched to English as I approached. They were pleased to tell me about the French music they used at Mass, and they gave me a hymnal. My wife and her parents were all born in a French-speaking area near Woonsocket, Rhode Island; but my wife spoke Polish as her first language and learned French in the Catholic schools. I think the most wonderful contribution of multilingualism is in music and culture. Think of the wonderful American music in French, Yiddish, Spanish, and myriad other languages. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 30 Mar 13 - 07:25 PM The Gaspe part of Quebec? So much for my memory of the Canadian east. The Maritimes should steal it. Reminds me of the remark supposedly heard from a tour member, "If it's Tuesday it must be Belgium." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 31 Mar 13 - 07:23 AM People who only know their mother tongue miss a lot. Learning any second language gives you a different view on humanity, similar to a second eye in 3D cinema. This knowledge never gets lost completely, even if you think you forgot the language or have no "real use" for it. When choosing a language, various criteria must be weighted:
Time and money spent for learning is rarely wasted, but neither are careful thoughts about what to learn first. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: GUEST Date: 31 Mar 13 - 09:48 AM Unfortunately, language can also be used for political and economic purposes, as has been in Canada (past and present).That has conbtributed to some of the negativity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Bob the Postman Date: 31 Mar 13 - 10:24 AM Gaspésie is the part of the Maritimes that's in Quebec. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 31 Mar 13 - 11:45 AM Bob, that actually is the take of westerners. Any eastern part of Canada that borders the ocean to the east is maritime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 31 Mar 13 - 01:03 PM Guest, I normally do not respond to anonymous guests, but I'll make an exception. Indeed, there is a long bad tradition of imposing languages as a way to gain (perceived) collective power or consolidate it. Resisting such power is legitimate, but refusing to learn the language is often the wrong way of resistance. A better way is to strengthen one's mother tongue as well. Learning a second language primarily benefits the learners, not the native speakers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: GUEST Date: 31 Mar 13 - 02:25 PM Explain that to the province of ùquebec-ùgood luck with that;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: gnu Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:00 PM CET.. but I am sick of the bilingual politics in the government - huge amounts of money spent so that senior bureaucrats and officers can punch their bilingual tickets What about all the $$$ spent for contracts to friends to change all the signs from white letters on black background to black letters on white background just before every election in BOTH official languages? >;-) GUEST... New Brunswick is more bilingual New Brunswick is the ONLY Officially Bilingual province in Canada and us Herring Chokers are SOME DAMN PROUD OF IT!!!! We kinda snicker at others who shit on it and don't know what it means culturally or economically. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: GUEST,ollaimh Date: 31 Mar 13 - 06:07 PM i'm sure aq and none of his friends know any French people. their ignorance and bigotry would be obvious from the first words they spoke. however there is a significant French population o in alberta. more over learning another labguage, allows one to access other opinions, the real reason the ignorant in alberta are so opposed, it significantly increases learning abilities and iq, and staves off dementia in old age--again too late for q. and you get to get into businesses that go on around the world in French rather that just the oil industry, and all one of our three founding peoples feel welcome in every part of the country.and youn get oput of the frog in the well syndrome. heaqring out side ideas will stop the echo effect of alberta conformity and reduce the ignorance but good luck with the savings program. much more sensible is to eliminate the five or six billion subsidy to the oil industry. but then we all know oil is so unprofitable you can't make a go of it with out public money |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Apr 13 - 12:16 PM The point should be obvious from earlier posts and my above the line postings of Spanish and French material that no bigotry is involved. Contacts here are common with Asian and African people and Calgary has a Muslin mayor and Asians on Council. It is obvious that O... is unable to add 2+2 and has no business in mudcat. It is also evident that he is a below the line lurker and has never posted anything related to music or musicians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Bert Date: 01 Apr 13 - 01:23 PM ...a Muslin mayor... See through? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: gnu Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:06 PM ollie loves his personal atacks, unfounded as they are. Just one more nail in his coffin... I expect he'll post it shut soon enough. As I have said on a number of threads, I hope the mods do not delete his post(sss) so it stays for all eternity as a testement to his verbal trash. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Ed T Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:25 PM "A Mudcat, below the line lurker" Now, that's an odd handle I never heard before. Appropriate to the intent or not, it seems to have hints of being kinda "musical-uppity". Wasn't there a thread related to that a few weeks back? :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:30 PM Yes, it may be "musical-uppity." That was my intent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Ed T Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:42 PM You may capture some unintended game (bycatch) with that handle:) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 01 Apr 13 - 02:49 PM topsie, I too was in Montreal in 1967, for Expo '67. I also found that the French-speaking Canadians were very hostile to me when I tried to speak French to them. I speak fluent French so it couldn't have been my bad command of the lingo or a bad accent. I've also taught French to 12 yr olds here in Norfolk UK, and found they don't retain it and haven't a good ear for languages. It could be that here in Norfolk we don't have many speakers of other languages, so there's no motivation. My point is that if it isn't needed for social purposes and isn't in practice, a language will fade away and no-one will want to speak it. On the other hand, I've been in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, where Gaelic is spoken all the time. I lived with some Gaelic speakers from Skye and Lewis, and they delighted in using their Gaelic in front of me as (I suspect) a small way of showing their political objections to the English, who historically had wrecked their way of life and their very culture. I've heard the same attitude prevails in Wales. So a second language can end up being a separatist tool rather than a uniting one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Ed T Date: 01 Apr 13 - 03:06 PM Language, has historically been much more than a vehicle to communication. It can both unite and duivide people and has done both throughout history. (I am not speaking about the benefits of language that allows one to enjoy learning about another culture, or to assist travellers). India, with many dialects (languages) is a good example of these complexities (social, class structure, economic and others), as noted in the article below: Language can unite or divide |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 01 Apr 13 - 06:45 PM I have loved languages from my infancy and when abroad can hardly help picking up words and phrases almost without effort. But I have to bear in mind that not everyone is thrilled by an opportunity to learn a language, or to speak to a fellow human being in their own tongue. Even in the same language (eg English in UK) a person has only to open their mouth to reveal their origins, 'status', educational level, place of birth, age and even political attitude from their choice of words and their accent. So a government bent on imposing a second language on all its people, such as in Canada, is not necessarily going to achieve its original aims. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: gnu Date: 01 Apr 13 - 07:04 PM Eliza... "So a second language can end up being a separatist tool rather than a uniting one." You do NOT know what a mouthful you said there and I don't mean in the broad sense. Here, we pride ourselves on sharing our mutual heritages and cultures and languages. However, some on both sides spew "English vs French" CRAP for their own gain. Divide and conquer the stunned as me arse? Yup... every chance they get. 95+% of us are appalled but the 5?% are... stunned as me arse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Apr 13 - 09:12 PM This thread has wandered. I still would like to know if throwing over one billion dollars at bilingualism will "strengthen unity." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Ed T Date: 01 Apr 13 - 09:14 PM Good thinking, Eliza. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 02 Apr 13 - 07:06 AM Q, actually I understood your OP as "is it wasted?" - my answer, uninformed about Canada's exact mindset, was: "very probably not!" But will it strengthen "unity", and in what sense? I am not sure. I was in Switzerland and found that most Swiss have some knowledge of German and French, but native speakers of different tongues rarely talk to each other, or may even do so in English! Since there are no "ethnic conflicts" involved (as opposed to Belgium and possibly Canada), they are all happy. Still, the mere experience that a different language implies different ways of thinking, can be a big step towards peace and tolerance, which are the real base of democratic states. The dangerous counterexample can be seen from a quotation I read on Mudcat, something like: "English was good enough for Jesus, so English is good enough for me!" If your government sells language learning as a concession to the minority, they should rething their marketing strategy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: bobad Date: 02 Apr 13 - 07:56 AM Where the problem arises in Canada is the promotion, by the Federal government, of bilingualism for the country wherein one province, with approximately 25% of the population, has designated itself unilingually French. This tends to breed a certain degree of resentment in the rest of Canada. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 02 Apr 13 - 08:55 AM It's been many years since I visited Canada, but when I did so I travelled overland from coast to coast, so I saw quite a bit of it. Outside Quebec province I found very few native French speakers, but many from other backgrounds. What I did become very aware of was considerable resentment at being required to learn French, especially for government jobs, when there was very little use for it and at the expense of those languages which would be useful in that area. This was particularly true of those with non-English backgrounds who resented the French being given special treatment when they were an almost invisible minority. Like Eliza, I didn't find bilingualism extended to Quebec, where there was a general reluctance to use or understand English. My favourite story is when I tried to buy a burger - "A burger with ketchup please" met with shrugs, but when I said "Un burger avec ketchup s'il vous plait" with no attempt at a French accent I was immediately understood. Sheer bloody-mindedness - understandable in many respects but hardly conducive to establishing unity and amity throughout the land. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Canada bilingualism- $1.1 Billion From: Charmion Date: 02 Apr 13 - 09:22 AM Eliza, the reaction you got to your French in Montreal may have had as much to do with your "francais de France" vocabulary and syntax as your British accent. 1967 was a politically fraught time in Quebec, and you just happened to get a wee bit ofthe backwash. |
